If I remember reading the change to the City Charter that the voters passed it expires in 2006. Which means after that time period there would be no hold on the City to agree to an East Side location without another vote taking place.
It doesn't surprise me it was done this way, though I do wonder what buildings will be bought and torn down to make the stadium happen. That would have been one positive for the East Side location is there would be no possibility of landmark buildings being in the "way" of progress.
posted by psyche777 at 02:07 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
from WSPD website: "Commissioner and LCIC Executive Committee member Pete Gerken says it was important to lock in the final piece of the Marina District area, and it's equally important to have the purchase completed within the 90-day window.
As far as a new arena, regardless of location, Gerken says the county's willing to step forward and put a similar financing package together as was done for the ballpark.
Gerken says Fifth Third Field has not hurt the county's budget, and he thinks neither would a successful new arena."
5/3 Field hasn't hurt the county budget because the excess profits have been used to pay both the interest (that normally has come from general fund) and the debt on the stadium. This extra money is part of the "one-time funds" used to balance the county's budget. But Gerken - having only been a commissioner for 8 months - probably doesn't realize this...And the Mud Hens are not happy that the profits are used this way. They're on the record as saying that extra profits - above operating costs - should go directly to paying down the principle.
So the County's willing to step forward and put together a finance package like it did for the Mud Hens stadium? Wonder who Gerken checked with before making THAT decision. I'm sure he didn't discuss this in any back-room outside of the sunshine laws and open meeting laws....But, as he's been heard to say, he decides, tells Tina what they're going do and they don't bother with the 'other one.'
What a way to run a county... sad, sad, sad.
On a side note - wonder where the money to buy the current arena is going to come from. I understand that LCIC is broke!
posted by intrepid at 02:19 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
This is why you have people say "government should be run like a business". I do not agree completely with that but I sure understand the concept.
I do not think it's so bad if Tina and Pete run this without bothering with "the other one". We will all know how this is going to go in the next six months. If it's anything like Commissioner Woziak's baby crib fiasco Maggie could be laughing all the way to re-election.
posted by thinkingwoman at 02:32 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
From the Aug 18 Blade story:
"Preliminary construction costs for a new Toledo sports and entertainment arena at between $61.6 million and $78 million."
"The proposed facility would provide about 10,000 seats in a style suited for hockey and indoor football."
"Additional costs for the Marina District site would be between $27 million and $47.6 million for a parking garage, plus up to $5 million for site acquisition from Tim Gladieux."
"Additional cost for land acquisition for the downtown site would be between $12 million and $14 million."
"Total existing funding available from the city is $19.2 million, leaving a funding shortage of $50.8 million on a $70 million arena."
As we understand it, that $19.2 million is NOT available for the arena. Not without it first going to another vote.
Yeah, none of this is much of a shock: arena on the west side of the river, near the convention centre, and managed by the County.
Mr. Ford did say something intelligent:
"Mr. Ford said yesterday that any new arena project "will require a tremendous amount of private investment."
I wasn't aware of this "other" study. We got to see the first study back in June, but apparently another study contained more details about a location and costs, which were left out of the study released in June.
"The Blade had been requesting the two-part study since mid-July and was in the process of preparing legal action to compel release under Ohio's public records law when the documents were released to The Blade and members of Toledo City Council yesterday."
"According to the SMG analysis, a new arena would host 113 events in its first year with total attendance of 436,500 people. It would have gross income of $3.8 million from rent, food and drink, parking, luxury suites, and other sources."
posted by jr at 03:32 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
SMG has an exclusive contract with Toledo...if and when a new arena is built, SMG gets to be the management company...setting all prices, determining all concessions, doing all bookings and ticketing...everything.
The City ordinance that authorized this no-bid contract said it was for personal services and not necessary to do an open RFP or bid process.
SMG is a for-profit company out of Pennsylvania...very qualified to do the analysis.
posted by intrepid at 05:21 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
jr - two studies were part of the contract. The first was the feasibility study - the second was the financial analysis. If I remember correctly, the second study had to be done either 15 or 30 days after the first one was received...There are also some time frames now that this second study is done - there is a deadline by which the city has to decide if they're going forward with the arena or not.
No wonder Ford wants the County to take it over...I don't know if he can meet those deadlines.
The City Council Clerk's office has the ordinance and the contract...
posted by intrepid at 05:25 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
Regarding Toledo’s and Lucas County’s increasingly “incestuous relationship," I offer you these words to ponder:
Incremental Uni-Gov
Incrementalism is the Devil’s (and the Dem’s) favorite tool/weapon…
As I’ve said on MANY previous occasions, “Time will tell,” (once it's too late)...
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 08:55 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
I don't really care how the arena gets built.....it's just needs to get built. A downtown arena will do more to improve Toledo and Lucas County than not spending the money on anything in particular. Someone has needed to show leadership on this issue, and since JFo hasn't I'm glad the county is.
posted by HeyHey at 09:51 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
As one of the silly taxpayers, I have one question:
If public funding pays for about 29% of this project, then will 29% of the stock (in the corporate entity that owns the arena) be duly assigned to the city and county?
I mean, it can't possibly be that public funds will pay 29% of the project and get no ownership in return. Isn't the President of the US pounding the pulpit as he talks about the "Ownership Society"? Shouldn't we OWN what we PAY for?
posted by GuestZero at 03:27 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
Great point, GuestZero! I also think if the County's going to spend county money on this - they ought to come back to the voters for our approval!
That'll happen - when pigs fly...
posted by intrepid at 07:18 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
Here's my problem with the situation, why are we buying the old sports arena if the new one is going on the other side of the river? First, I don't believe that Gladieux had any other good offers for the SA. The man lies like no tomorrow. How many times has he talked about updating the arena? Remember when he said they would break new ground on the new arena in 90 days? Face it, the purchase of the SA is really just a payoff to Gladieux. If the county build a new arena in the WH district, the SA will fail and the county could buy it for bargain basement prices.
The excess profits from the Mud Hens are going into county coffers?!?! That's just stupid. Pay off the debt and the cash will be rolling in. Two short-sighted idiots on the board.
No public funds for the new arena. Either it can survive on its own or it's not worth building.
posted by Terrahawk1 at 09:37 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
Actually - I'd heard that Bruce Douglas, who lost out on the Marina project, was very interested in the property...He's was going to put something there that wouldn't necessarily coordinate with the latest Marine District plans - rumor has it - out of spite for losing the project.
Taking the option on the current land was smart if only to preserve the land for part of the overall Marina District - but shame on the City of Toledo for not doing it earlier and waiting for the LCIC to step in and do it for them (with county money).
As for any new arena - figure at least a 5-year process and the team will need a place to play in the meantime.
And yes - the excess profits from the MudHens went into the County General Fund in order to pay the interest on the bonds...over and above the bond payment. This was supposed to happen only for a short period of time in order to help the County through the difficult economy, but now it appears as if at least 2 commissioners want to continue to do this.
I agree - no public funds for the new arena!
Also - where is the LCIC going to get $5 mil to buy the old sports arena when they don't have any money???
posted by intrepid at 12:48 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
Lots of rumors flying around about that question, intrepid.
One juicy one I have heard involves the funneling of money from certain JFS departments through other county agencies to LCIC - still digging, so I don't want to get too specific.
I just love the county's very non-specific online budgets, don't you?
http://www.co.lucas.oh.us/OMB/2005Budget/D.Budget_Summary.pdf
http://www.co.lucas.oh.us/OMB/2005Budget/N.Human_Services.pdf
Of course, governments never make it easy for the average person to see how tax money is spent, do they? If people actually knew how wasteful some programs are they would be angered and, as they say in Chicago, "vote da bums out."
posted by historymike at 02:27 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
Maybe JFS should have funneled the $8M they returned to the state recently (they couldn't get it spent somehow). While completely unethical IMO at least the county would have benefited.
posted by thinkingwoman at 06:34 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
Historymike - the county's budget book and summary are just that - summaries. Complete budgets for every department and elected official are available for the asking. I know because I've asked in the past and gotten them.
Kind of scary - JFS monies are to help those who need a bit of temporary help (at least that what they're supposed to do...). I can't image all three commissioners being aware of this - sounds like something 2 of them learned in Toledo City Council - if the rumors are true...
posted by intrepid at 07:59 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
Sep 1 Blade story:
"Toledo and Lucas County officials will meet officially for the first time today to discuss how and where to build a new Toledo sports and entertainment arena."
Yes, a little something that Ford can exploit before the Sep 13 primary.
"Tina Skeldon Wozniak, president of the board of Lucas County commissioners, said Mayor Jack Ford called her on Monday to invite the county to participate in developing an arena. She, or Commissioner Peter Gerken, and county staff members will meet with some of Mr. Ford's top staff to begin planning for selection of a site. They also will discuss how to finance the $70 million project."
Allies, baby. That's why it's nice to get the Toledo politicans into county positions.
"Bill Carroll, the city's director of economic and community development, said they would form committees and assign timetables. He held out hope of land acquisition in 2006."
If that happened, a new arena would probably open in 2008, '09 the latest.
"Mrs. Wozniak and Mr. Gerken have said they want to follow the model of the county's construction in 2002 of Fifth Third Field, which generates enough revenue to pay for both the annual cost of operation and the debt service on the $39.2 million ballpark. But the Pizzuti study concluded that the arena will fall far short of being fully self-sustaining."
"The study said an arena of 10,000 seats, expandable to 12,000, would cost about $70 million to build. According to the analysis, $19.2 million of that cost is practically in place: $7.5 million pledged by the state, $5 million from the city, and $6.7 million that can be financed from the annual operating revenue."
"That leaves $50.8 million to be financed. Ken Portnoy, senior vice president of Garfield Traub, said arenas are usually subsidized by the public."
Back in June, a developer told me he has mountains of research data that shows arenas lose money unless they're 100% privately funded.
posted by jr at 09:33 A.M. EST on Thu Sep 01, 2005 #
What i really want to know is:
What is Lucas County's timetable for acquiring Toledo?
That IS where this is all headed, isn't it?
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 08:08 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 01, 2005 #
Hooda_Thunkit - actually I thought it was the other way around. What is Toledo's timetable for acquiring Lucas County?
I think THAT's where it's headed...unless Ford loses the election...
BTW, with a 4% interest rate, the cost to finance the $50 million needed to do the arena is $3.8 million/year. I don't think the county has this kind of cash lying around.
posted by intrepid at 09:38 A.M. EST on Fri Sep 02, 2005 #
intrepid,
I was under the impression that the County was handling their cash flow better than Toledo.
Oh well, sooner or later one of the fishs will end up swallowing the other ;-)
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 11:56 A.M. EST on Fri Sep 02, 2005 #
Yes, the County is doing better than Toledo, but I haven't checked recently...they gave out 3% pay increases to everyone (Thurber lone no vote) and added some new positions this year (in other elected official offices).
I know that they said their budget deficit next year could be between $8 and $10 million...and with the price of gas, maybe more.
I guess I was thinking in terms of the two commissioners being former city council members exporting into the county all the failed policies of Toledo...in effect, a "Toledoization" of Lucas County...
posted by intrepid at 12:01 P.M. EST on Fri Sep 02, 2005 #
Just wait until they get the rest of the county to pay for Toledo's arena/marina. I keep thinking non-Toledoans will refuse to go along. Hope I'm right.
posted by thinkingwoman at 01:20 P.M. EST on Fri Sep 02, 2005 #
intrepid,
"I guess I was thinking in terms of the two commissioners being former city council members exporting into the county all the failed policies of Toledo...in effect, a "Toledoization" of Lucas County..."
Oh I get it now.
Toledo invokes/exercises "The Peter Principle," and takes over the County by default (default of the County Commissioners).
I like it! But, I used to think that the County (or maybe I should have said "the voters") were smarter than that...
My misteak ;-)
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 05:34 P.M. EST on Fri Sep 02, 2005 #
I still hold out hope, Hooda_Thunkit, that the majority of voters in the County are smarter than that and won't let the commissioners get away with the "Toledoization..."
posted by intrepid at 12:02 P.M. EST on Sat Sep 03, 2005 #
Intrepid:
Always the optimist;-)
I sincerely hope that I am disappointed and that you are not.
(But, alas, I doubt it.)
:-(
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 12:20 P.M. EST on Sat Sep 03, 2005 #
It's funny, watching the staunch Capitalists lining up to get a government handout.
It's even funnier, watching enough people leave Toledo that the entire deal will crash and burn even if it ever gets done. (Case in point, like BrianInFlorida says: 'How's that Steam Plant project coming along?')
Ford and his ilk certainly understand that people and their businesses have fled to the 'burbs, which explains why they are keen on bringing county rule (hence income) to Toledo-only politicians. I wonder how long it will take until the county wealthy take matters to Columbus to get a law passed that will put a stop to that nonsense.
Toledo's intense mismanagement DEMANDS that it collapse into receivership. As of this writing, Toledo politicians continue to ignore or resist the pressures towards fiscal sensibility. Why then reward these overspending and overtaxing elites with increased control over a wider economic area? I'd think that it was only sensible that if your son can't use a BB gun responsibly, that you'd not get him a .22 rifle, even when he comes of age for it.
posted by GuestZero at 04:45 P.M. EST on Sat Sep 03, 2005 #
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