The absolute best thing anyone could do in response to those type a-holes........is nothing.
totally ignore them, they thrive on publicity, bad or good.
posted by JeepMaker at 01:39 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 06, 2005 #
Oh, don't worry, the illustrious media will make sure they beat the drum daily, to ensure that everyone in Northwest Ohio knows about it, thereby guaranteeing plenty of protesters & opportunity for violence(and ratings, when the vultures cover it).
posted by Foolkiller at 04:57 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 06, 2005 #
And in the end? Won't do anything to stop the Gang violence that was happening.
posted by psyche777 at 05:03 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 06, 2005 #
This via a link from one of the NSM members that visited my blog.
WHO INITIATED THE TOLEDO MARCH?
Recently, our national organization has been encouraging local units to be more active.
Our Toledo unit, led by Toledo area resident Ron Riehl, decided several months ago that they wanted to organize a local event to address the issue of black crime. The intent of this event was to bring in local National Socialists from Toledo and the surrounding area in Michigan and Ohio to demonstrate in favor of the National Socialist cause. We expected an attendance of one to two dozen people.
Our Toledo unit members are active in the Toledo community, and they were made aware of the problems of Tom Szych and his neighborhood. They believed he was a good example of the type of problem they wished to have addressed. Mr Szych and his relatives are not members of the National Socialist Movement, nor did they initiate the decision to hold an event in Toledo.
I wasn't aware we had a Toledo Unit
posted by psyche777 at 05:21 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 06, 2005 #
"Related" stories:
July 7, New Toledo gang posting based upon a news story by Fox 36.
Aug 10 Toledo Free Press story titled "Gang activity spurs citizen to action."
But like I said, I'm waiting for the real story to come out.
posted by jr at 05:33 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 06, 2005 #
The Brown Shirts will come, as will the media and the counter protesters, and they will all have their little party.
And, when they leave, it will still be more of the same old, same old...
Now, if the Blue Shirts (Toledo Police) were doing their jobs, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
Our officers know what to do, given adequate resources, the problem lies elsewhere.
Someone locally needs an attitude adjustment and he needs to pass it around to our police officers along with the tools and bodies to do the job.
Are you listening JFo?
I thought not...
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 06:08 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 07, 2005 #
I have mixed feelings about covering the Nazis. I understand the argument about not supplying them with attention, but at the same time I want to expose their hypocrisy, racism, and idiocy.
posted by historymike at 08:46 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 07, 2005 #
And what if everyone else showed up but the Nazis?
At this moment, residents are edgy, the media is in a dither, the police are ready to conk heads, curious outsider types are planning their Oct 15 tailgate party menus. Next Friday, nobody can sleep on the eve of the big event. Then "everyone" shows up in north Toledo except the Nazis. What if their planned march or rally is a hoax? All those people who went out to see an incident would be like, "Well, this is a let down. Now what?" I say, block party.
posted by jr at 09:21 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 07, 2005 #
You couldn't keep those Nazis away with fully charged fire hoses and snarling German shepherds (although, many would like to try).
They crave the attention that they were denied when they were children.
What was I thinking, they still are children.
A prime example of arrested development, due to inbreeding I suspect.
The DEVIL made me do that.
I'm supposed to know better that to toy with dumb animals like that;-)
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 09:37 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 07, 2005 #
Wow-and I thought these groups were only in the good old south where I live with the rednecks!-This is sick-I do not know about Toledo gangs,but gang violince where I live-If it is a black gang-it is black on black violence, latino gang...same thing....no terrorizing the white man or woman that I know of.....
I am the only white person on my block in an inner city neighbor hood for 20 years now and I'm still alive!...hope people ignore these fools....but of course they will not-Someone tell me what Toledo Gang violence is really like-I have not lived there in years-?...i.e types of gangs,what they are into....crimes...etc....I teach school and try to keep up with this-in fact every year the Police come and give us a mini course in gang slang and colors and what to look for in school!-FUn FUn FUN!!!!.....
posted by divamom26 at 11:11 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 07, 2005 #
First segment in Toledo Tales' continuous live coverage of Nazifest 2005.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 11:54 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 07, 2005 #
I plan on stopping by. However, despite Foolkiller's assertion, the "illustrious media" hasn't beat the daily drum enough to actually tell me the route through that not-small area known as North Toledo. Nor a time. So it rather to the contrary strikes me as indicative of an "obscuring media" who really doesn't want people to show up. (Considering the state of Toledo's news media with their clearly defined ground-axes, that suspicion is apt.)
I've never seen an extreme group on the march (I mean, other than each US Presidential inaugural parade). I don't know what to expect.
P.S. I'll make sure the shirt I wear that day is white, for the budding comics on this board who might want to score a few points on second-guessing my interest.
posted by GuestZero at 11:21 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 07, 2005 #
Just follow the crowd, GZ, you'll find it ok. :D And it seems to me that at least one TV 'reporter' gave the location -several nights in a row. Stupid bastards SHOULD have just buried this, IMHO, as it's going to do NOTHING but cause more opportunity for a violent showdown. But...gotta get hysteria drummed up-they want those ratings. Have fun down there. you won't catch me within 10 miles of it.
posted by Foolkiller at 08:41 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 08, 2005 #
I am sure that the parade route will be leaked. I have already gotten calls from people who claim inside knowledge of the route.
It might be a good idea, Foolkiller, to be 10 miles away. I have heard that local anarchists and socialists are getting mightily pissed off about the Nazis coming.
Could be ugly. I may have to invest in a can of pepper spray when I go.
The Blade today spoke of an "alternative" rally away from the Nazis. All that will do is send the feel-good types away, while creating more space for the radicals and the Nazis to bash each others' skulls.
posted by historymike at 09:19 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 08, 2005 #
Second segment in Toledo Tales' continuous live coverage of Nazifest 2005.
Oughtta be worth a couple of slashed tires on Subcomandante Bob's 1976 Fleetwood by angry Nazi punks, but Bob is firmly dedicated to getting out the story, regardless of its veracity.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 11:52 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 08, 2005 #
I went to their website and checked out quite a bit of it. They actually have several offshoots and loose associations as well. There is more than one website, where their kind is intermingled with other groups in certain "gatherings". I believe the best way to deal with them, is to have a good sized police escort for their march. I think the best way to understand any person, or group, is to study their patterns and practices. Not that I want to. The best thing anyone could do, for their opposition, is to dismiss them without studying them first. Most people, or groups, have distinctive patterns of behavior that are repeatedly used, and to know what they are, is a great help in figuring out ways to counter them. To know what attracts people to this type of group is relatively easy. They thrive on the deep seated feelings of animosity, generated against certain other groups of people. This type of group must continuously provide new examples of "outrages" and possibly "manufactured events" to refresh the feelings of comraderie, and shared sacrifice. Just this fact alone, leads to the type of people attracted to these groups. They may feel wronged in some way, and some have grown up in an atmosphere of racial intolerance. Their personal feelings of inadequacy are masked by the feelings they get as part of a group, where they feel much stronger. Each fresh "outrage" is followed by declarations and pronouncements, stating their intended actions in opposition to the aforementioned events. These pronouncements, and the ritualistic manner in which their little society functions, serves to give them meaning and purpose. You would notice their uniforms, and the fact that everyone has a place, and also some type of rank. This has tremendous meaning for them as well. Even their get-togethers with others sharing some of their views, is marred by the fact that they still do not fully trust their "supposed" friends. Most photographs taken, show them together in any certain area, yet grouped apart, according to rank, or association.
I believe they will show up. These people truly believe in what they are doing, and that is what makes them a threat. To enable this type of cohesion, demands at least partial truths. Looking through their literature, there are some valid points that can be made, for to allow a big lie to be believed, you must have some smaller truths thrown in. This is what hooks people on the path to destruction. They mention rap lyrics as filthy, and provide numerous examples. Sadly to say, that is true in many cases. They mention many Jewish members of our government. That is also true. The meaning of that is different to them, than to you or I. To me, that means there are quite a few, very intelligent Jewish people. To them, it may be evidence of some type of plot. And we may know what else, sadly to say. They believe they are Patriots, and mention (Made in the USA) products. They are not as one-dimensional as many would mistakenly believe. They mention numerous examples of harassment against them. They truly take all of that personally. They aren't as stupid as people would believe. They know the government is watching them. They are very careful in their language, and know the rights and privileges afforded by the Constitution better than many of us. My advice would be to stay home. Don't afford them the National Press Coverage they crave. Let the Toledo Police do their job, as I hope they do. Remember this is their BIG DAY, and their BIG EVENT! They'll be talking about this for years to come. Negative or positive, this is what helps define them. If any of them were to be hurt, or unduly harassed, this would serve as fuel for their cause as well. The bigger the crowd, the bigger and more important they will feel. A HUGE turnout, MAY virtually guarantee that this could become an ANNUAL EVENT. This could also draw new converts to their cause. Does anyone want that to happen? I don't!
P.S. These people have the Constitutional right to freedom of speech and assembly. As granted by the U.S. Constitution. Many may ask, why wouldn't they shut them down? Even if the government could shut them down, which would be unconstitutional, and therefore bring your own loss of rights, closer than you care to know. Would it be a good idea? Think about this set of questions. Would it be better to know at all times what your possible opposition was doing, and who the majority of their members were? Or would it be better to drive them underground, where tracking them would be much more expensive, unreliable, and difficult?
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 05:17 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 08, 2005 #
I have been hearing even more talk about regional anarchists and socialists looking to converge on Toledo to mix it up with the Nazis.
I'm concerned that this may turn into a bloodbath; I'll post more tomorrow after I follow up on a lead.
Anyone else hearing this sort of chatter (Jesus, I am starting to sound like Homeland Security) around town?
Or are my subversive contacts just blowing smoke?
One person I talked with today said that he was in a fast-food restaurant not far from Dexter Street, and the employees (Hispanic and African American) were talking about packing heat and "taking out some Nazis" next Saturday.
Again, sorting meaningless braggadocio from reality can sometimes be difficult, but when you hear this stuff from multiple sources it gets more credible.
Really interested in reading what other posters are hearing in their day-to-day conversations around town.
Finally, everyone needs to be aware that NSM is not some 14-year old hacker's web gag. They are real, they have numbers, and they fully intend to come to Toledo to stir up trouble.
Today they slammed Carty Finkbeiner for being "partly Jewish" on their Overthrow website. Gotta fire up the troops in whatever way you can, eh?
It will be pretty hard to ignore these goons if they show up in force, as they promise.
posted by historymike at 12:25 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 09, 2005 #
Oct 7 Cleveland Indymedia posting posted by a Toledoan, I guess.
"The Neo NAZI National Socialist Movement will be marching in North Toledo, apredominantly black and polish neighborhood on Saturday oct. 15. The time is not yet specified. They have a chapter here with 2 members,but haven'tbeen active til recently when alocal white man allegedly had confrontations with black gangs and shot at them!"
"This looks like it wil be Big! On one of the members websites http://www.overthrow.com it mentions that Matt hales World Church of the creator will be there as well as Blood and Honour USA skins! We really need people to come down here and resist these fuckers! There are reportedly already nazis here being housed by racist locals and walking around trying to recruit residents! Please anyone who can make it come down!!! We only have a small anarchist/radical community here and need a hand! solidarity & @utonomy Ratboy"
Oct 6 Columbus Indymedia posting:
"Hey all, A Neo-Nazi group is marching through Toledo, Ohio on Saturday
October 15th...they are marching through a neighborhood that is mixed
polish and black."
"Local anarchists in toledo are responding quick in trying to organize
resistance to the nazis...and will be communicating to local
residents,door to door in the neighborhoods were the march will go through, about how the rsidents feel."
"If anyone is interested in supporting the efforts of the toledo
anarchists against the nazis let me know...also indicate what kind of involvement
level you want to have or what you are comfortable doing."
"It is important to keep our streets nazi-free, we can't let them gain
ground."
The anarchist FAQ webpage.
posted by jr at 11:46 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 09, 2005 #
If the "Nazi's" do come...there will be RACIAL VIOLENCE...
The Toledo Police are understaffed to fully patrol the area...there's talk of "Black" and "Hispanic" Gangs..."Nazi's" on their way...
Oh yes...there will be VIOLENCE...
posted by MARIELORA at 12:12 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 09, 2005 #
Just got back from observing a planning meeting between local and regional anarchists, socialists, and communists.
Looks like they will be out in force, despite their intra-spectrum squabbling.
The question is whether or not there will be a coordinated effort between the various left factions, or whether they will each do their own confrontational activity against the Nazis.
Each of the loose collection of groups thinks they can deliver 80-100 activists. So, taking the historymike mob estimation formula:
Projected activist claims x 33% + 10% margin of error = actual turnout (subtract 30% if it rains) (tongue only slightly in cheek)
I think there will be at least 100 battle-tested radical protesters, with as many as 200 if the weather is good for a face-off.
The NSM has been pulling 75-100 diehard members for their recent events.
Also, we are leaving out the neighborhood gangs. Many are predicting that gangs will be out in a show of force. WIll Toledo gangs show up or sit this one out? If local gangs and gangsta-wannabes show up, there might be an additional 500-1000 angry people ready to take back their neighborhood from the unwanted Nazis.
Question: do you think TPD understands the magnitude of the clash? Do you think they will be prepared to handle mobs of this size?
Some of the activists I saw today were split on this, as there seems to be a divided left in the area. Some African American radicals argue that there is an inherent, paternalistic racism even among radical groups, and there is some question as to which fight is more important (anti-Nazi or intra-radical dissent).
Note: I am reporting what I observed. Do not assume that I am promoting any agenda other than public awareness. I will be the first to admit that there are members of any given faction whose ideas are quite extreme to me, or for whom I may have serious questions regarding mental stability.
I personally would prefer a peaceful resolution to this situation, but I am concerned that the anger level is bubbling over into something catastrophic. More later on my blog.
posted by historymike at 04:40 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 09, 2005 #
The TPD hasn't a clue on the magnitude of this. Apparently both sides have decided to draw a battle line in this neighborhood on this weekend. Which is fine with me. Any movement like the Nazis should be crushed as soon as they appear. A peaceful solution would be best, but these people have been demonstrating that they are not interested in peace for over 60 years. It will hopefully, be up to them to set the tone. And, unlike many of the people on this site, I disagree wholeheartedly that these people thrive on publicity. They thrive in the shadows and in other people's ignorance and on propoganda. Ignoring them has never worked. Nazi Germany was aresult of ignoring these people. They want to have total control of their publicity. What they don't want is to march and see a group much larger and more diverse than them opposing them. If we ignore them, they will be further emboldened and use success in Toledo as a reason to organize a bigger event in a bigger city like Detroit. Now, if you are predicting problems in Toledo, imagine sucha amarch in Detroit. After all Detroit proper is something like 95% African-American.
posted by Underground17 at 06:57 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 09, 2005 #
"A peaceful solution would be best ..."
And do you think that will happen if a bunch of anarchists show up to do whatever it is they do?
"Each of the loose collection of groups thinks they can deliver 80-100 activists."
Are we suppose to believe that the anarchists, socialists, and communists are somehow smarter and better than the Nazis? The way I see it, the people who waste time protesting Nazis could be dumber and more worthless than the Nazis.
The Nazis are coming to Toledo. Big deal. I can't believe people will blow what could be a beautiful Saturday afternoon in mid-October to shout profanity at Nazis. What is that? What does that accomplish? If we know the Nazis are losers, what does that say about the groups that show up to protest the losers? Bigger losers?
If you go to the march to simply observe and make fun of everyone involved, then that's okay. I hope to see some college football this Saturday. Some good games on the schedule: Michigan St at Ohio St, Penn St at Michigan, and the biggie, USC at Notre Dame.
What would Jesus do this Saturday if he was hanging in Toledo? No doubt about it. He and his buds would watch Irish football.
posted by jr at 12:18 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 10, 2005 #
I hope people take your advice, jr.
If Jesus were here, though, he would be watching UM.
And helping out this woeful Wolverine team with a couple of miracles.
posted by historymike at 05:23 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 10, 2005 #
Third segment in Toledo Tales' continuous live coverage of Nazifest 2005.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 07:24 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 10, 2005 #
History Mike: You shouldn't believe everything people who are obviously insane tell you.
When the anarchist and communist communities of New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Baltimore and Washington, DC came together to organize every single person they could for an anti-racist march in York, PA, they were able to draw a total of about 90 people.
When every anarchist and communist group in Baltimore, DC, Richmond, Norfolk and North Carolina came together to organize every single person they could for an anti-racist march in Yorktown, VA, they were able to draw a total of about 30 people.
What I'm saying is that I'm surprised they were able to find 15 people for a meeting. My guess is, once we're done plassting their addresses and photos all over the internet, the majority will realize that, even if they "escape" in their "getaway cars", the cops are still going to come knock on their parent's doors and arrest them, and they may have six try to show up and get arrested long before they can cause any trouble.
Plus, I used to organize with the ISO back in my leftist days. They always talked very tough, lied about their numbers, and then, the day before the event, told their members if they actually do anything criminal or violent they would be expelled.
These guys are jokes.
Bill White
National Socialist Movement
posted by bwhite7718 at 08:32 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 10, 2005 #
Mr. White:
I report what I see.
I do not "believe everything people who are obviously insane tell" me. The vast majority of the people I saw and talked with were rational people who simply have a different political viewpoint.
Are there insane leftists? Sure. There are also insane Democrats, Republicans, Green Paty members, libertarians, and (I would guess) a few insane Nazis.
As far as numbers, I clearly mentioned my skepticism of the claims of the various groups and provided my slightly-tongue-in-cheek formula for deriving a more accurate estimate.
As far as your characterization of these people waiting for knocks "parent's doors," the people I talked with ranged in age from 20-60, and I doubt that more than 1 or 2 live with parents.
There were a wide variety of leftist groups represented at the meeting I attended, ranging from the political to trade unionists.
I think your operative infiltrated a different meeting than the one that I attended.
The planning of the "smuggling of weapons" seemed to be defensive in posture, at least on the surface. Just as your group is fears violence, so do these radicals. They believe that your group will be armed, and NSM wants a fight.
Are you ready to assert that your group will come in peace, bring no weapons, and be in Toledo only to get out your message?
posted by historymike at 09:22 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 10, 2005 #
More info from another rival neo-Nazi group on Bill White, leader of NSM.
Apprently White's group is not widely respected within among the various neo-Nazi factions. The NSM is called "Nazi fetishists" by the author, Brien James of the Hoosier State Skinheads, and White is described as possibly being a "professional counter intelligence and sabotage agent."
posted by historymike at 01:57 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 10, 2005 #
The fourth segment in continuous live coverage of Nazifest 2005 at Toledo Tales.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 06:12 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 10, 2005 #
Information given to me by anti-Nazi activists on the logistics of the upcoming protest is available on my blog.
posted by historymike at 07:17 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 11, 2005 #
MEMO
TO: Bill White - NSM
Mr. White, please don't think that Toledoans are, in general, pleased that you are going to visit. I'm sure there is a small number of disgruntled folks that are grasping at straws in an effort to survive, but please don't be inclined to think that that is the majority of our city.
I can tell you that there are many community groups that find you and your group to be disturbed, irrational, unglued, bigoted, racist, and a group that thrives on intimidation and fear. Understanding the mindset of groups such as yours is a lifelong 'hobby' for some.
On your visit to Toledo, please play by the rules, state your case (as is your right), and then please quietly leave our fair city. When we, as a united group, choose to visit Roanoke, you will be the first to know.
Thanks - and have a nice day.
posted by DoknowDocare at 04:29 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 11, 2005 #
historymike, excellent coverage, as usual, on this story and other topics on your blog. I know you do the j-thing for "real," but your blog is also a nice example of citizen journalism. Congrats on your award last week.
posted by jr at 04:46 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 11, 2005 #
In the spirit of disrespecting every Nazi, past and present, I would just like to note that the boneheads are coming to Toledo on...
SWEETEST DAY!
These guys are as sharp as marbles.
posted by AirTrainer at 06:50 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 11, 2005 #
Thanks for the kudos, jr.
I don't want to tie up this thread with a discourse on citizen journalism, but I do want to say that every citizen now has the ability to be a journalist with the emergence of new technology.
One could theoretically operate an Internet media outlet at no cost by using a library computer and a free web hosting service like Blogger or Geocities.
Switching back to the Nazis, I have taken it upon myself to get information out because I thought that the major news outlets were either missing the seriousness of this event, or treating it in a superficial manner.
I have planned articles over the next four days that will address themes largely being ignored by the major local media.
My ultimate goal is to help maintain the peace and bring some rational discussion to the debate; the many voices on the multiple sides of this issue are spiralling into what could potentially be an explosive situation if there is ignorance.
Ultimately, "citizen" journalists should be contributing to the collective well-being.
posted by historymike at 07:05 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 11, 2005 #
historymike, I agree wholeheart with you on this...not only did I live the Racial Riots...
Also, possibly you may remember...some years back when a Police Officer wounded a young African American Boy ( the boy was vandalizing the Police Officer's property)...well...I reside in the neighborhood that this incident happened in...
Racial unrest...oh my gosh...ofcourse Reverend Rose and his people marched down the street...then...the Skin Heads came from Cleveland...then...more African Americans from Chicago...then...the Police Officer's home was blown up...I was imprisoned in my home for 4 days...there was no way out of the drive way...
Also, about 10 years ago I happened to be on vacation in Myrtle Beach when the "March" of the KKK and lord knows who else...to keep the Confederate Flag...that too...was scarey...
This "March" this Sweetest Day...well...I am concerned...very concerned...
posted by MARIELORA at 07:22 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 11, 2005 #
The fifth segment in continuous live coverage of Nazifest 2005 at Toledo Tales.
Working hard to bring you the latest in specious reporting.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 10:43 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 11, 2005 #
Subcomandante_bob, we need all sides of the story. I've always thought the German Shepherds were getting a bad rap. I blame TV. Hogan's Heroes.
posted by jr at 06:28 A.M. EST on Wed Oct 12, 2005 #
New information (at least to Toledoans) about NSM leader Bill White's intriguing real estate investments in Roanoke, Va.
Kudos to Lisa Renee Ward, who did much of the research on this article.
posted by historymike at 09:49 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 12, 2005 #
The sixth segment in continuous live coverage of Nazifest 2005.
Careful - this one's a real tear-jerker.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 10:03 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 12, 2005 #
The web is amazing. Interesting article by historymike and LRW. Then Bill White responds twice on historymike's blog with more details.
Bill White said:
"If you ever want to do an article on real estate investing and models of urban redevelopment, I'll be happy to go into depth with you."
"For now, understand that I do very difficult real estate deals -- I buy properties that are physically collapsing, that have bad titles, that are crackhouses, and I clear them out and make them nice places to live."
"So, the short answer to your question is that I take on very difficult projects that make a lot of money."
Maybe after the march, Mr. White can meet with Toledo city leaders in secret on the subject of urban redevelopment. Is it possible Toledo could learn something from Mr. White?
posted by jr at 12:03 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 13, 2005 #
What's the old adage?
"Give him enough rope, he'll hang him itself."
From a $13,000 investment to $2 million in valuation in 19 months? The guy is either a genius or ... well, draw your own conclusions.
posted by historymike at 02:00 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 13, 2005 #
The seventh segment in our continuous live coverage of Nazifest 2005.
Toledo Tales is committed to bringing you the finest in half-truths, scurrilous rumor-mongering, and outright fabrication, so help us Buddha.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 09:42 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 13, 2005 #
You people disgust me!
posted by TOTENKOPF_VERBAENDE at 01:34 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
"You people disgust me!
posted by TOTENKOPF_VERBAENDE at 02:34 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005
Yes - isn't America Great?
posted by intrepid at 05:46 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
I don't usually pimp my blog here, however, for those of you who want to vote in an exclusive Liberal Common Sense poll?
http://liberalcommonsense.blogspot.com/2005/10/final-countdown-to-saturday.html
Cept for TOTENKOPF_VERBAENDE, I don't think they'd enjoy it.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 08:11 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
Just so everyone knows what types of lurkers and new posters attracted to this thread (and likely to our fair city), here is a snippet from Wikipedia about Totenkopfverbände:
The SS-Totenkopfverbände (SS-TV) — the Death's Head Formations — were made up of Nazi Germany's concentration camp guards. During World War II the SS-TV also provided troops for the first combat unit of the Waffen-SS, the Totenkopf Division, which eventually evolved into one of Nazi Germany's most formidable combat formations.
Happy bunch, aren't they?
posted by historymike at 10:23 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
"Happy bunch, aren't they?"
Any truth that they will be in Uniform?
(Slap shoes, grease paint, and bulbous red rubber noses)
I'd pay to see those clowns... :-)
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 11:07 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
I don't know what these people thrive on nor do I care-But I do agree that we should give them absolutely NO audience!1 I mean what will they achieve if the streets are deserted and there are no people to receive thier message(with all it's ignorance and racial hatred)or to contest it either.(Which only brings about a hostile situation waiting for violence to erupt anyway!!) I say stay home or if you fell you must be linked to it in some way watch the news it's bound to be all over the T.V *which offers you all the happenings and none of the harm!! I say be safe they're not worth it so let them show up and be greatly dissappointed and(pissed) because all thier hype produced 0 turn-out!!
posted by mizshele at 11:14 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
"I say be safe they're not worth it so let them show up and be greatly dissappointed and(pissed) because all thier hype produced 0 turn-out!!"
Although that would be best, it is unlikely to happen.
Human Nature dictates that a few can't resist a confrontation and many just HAVE to be there to see.
And then, there's the media...
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 12:31 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
ENJOY! 25 POINTS OF AMERICAN NATIONAL SOCIALISM
We demand the union of all Whites into a greater America on the basis of the right of national self-determination.
We demand equality of rights for the American people in its dealings with other nations, and the revocation of the United Nations, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the World Bank, the North American Free Trade Agreement, the World Trade Organization, and the International Monetary Fund.
We demand land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle surplus population.
Only members of the nation may be citizens of the state. Only those of pure White blood, whatever their creed, may be members of the nation. Non-citizens may live in America only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens. Accordingly, no Jew or homosexual may be a member of the nation.
The right to vote on the State government and legislation shall be enjoyed by citizens of the state alone.
We therefore demand that all official appointments, of whatever kind, whether in the nation, in the states or in smaller localities, shall be held by none but citizens.
We oppose the corrupting parliamentary custom of filling posts merely in accordance with party considerations and special interests-without reference to character or abilities.
We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) will be deported.
All non-White immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Whites currently residing in America be required to leave the nation forthwith and return to their land of origin: peacefully or by force.
All citizens shall have equal rights and duties, regardless of class or station.
It must be the first duty of every citizen to perform physical or mental work. The activities of the individual must not clash within the framework of the community and be for the common good.
We therefore demand:
The abolition of incomes unearned by work The breaking of interest slavery.
In view of the enormous personal sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We therefore demand the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.
We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).
We demand economic reform suitable to our national requirements;
The prohibition of pro-marxist unions and their supplantation with National Socialist trade unions;
The passing of a law instituting profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises;
The creation of a livable wage;
The restructuring of social security and welfare to include drug testing for welfare recipients;
The immediate discontinuation of all taxes on things of life's necessity, such as food, clothing, shelter, medicine etc.:
The replacement of the current tax system with a flat-rate tax based on income.
We demand the treasonable system of health care be completely revolutionized.
We demand an end to the status quo in which people die or rot away from lack of proper treatment due to the failure of their medical coverage, Health Maintenance Organization, or insurance policy.
We further demand the extensive development of insurance for old age and that prescription drugs be made both affordable and accessible.
We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small trades in the placing of state and municipal orders.
We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, that shall be twofold in nature:
The primary land reform will be to ensure all members of the nation receive affordable housing. The party as such stands explicitly for private property.
However, we support the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation when deemed necessary for land illegally acquired, or not administered in accordance with the national welfare.
We further demand the abolition of ground rent, the discontinuation of all taxes on property, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.
The secondary land reform will be to ensure the environmental integrity of the nation is preserved;
By setting aside land for national wildlife refuges;
By cleaning the urban, agricultural, and hydrographical (water) areas of the nation;
By creating legislation regulating the amount of pollution, carbon dioxide, greenhouse gases , and toxins released into the atmosphere;
And for the continued research and development of clean burning fuels and energy sources.
We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Murderers, rapists, pedophiles, drug dealers, usurers, profiteers, race traitors, etc. must be severely punished, whatever their creed or race.
We demand that Roman edict law, which serves a materialistic new world order, be replaced by Anglo-Saxon common law.
The state must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education with the aim of opening up to every able and hardworking American the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement.
The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life.
The aim of the school must be to give the pupil, beginning with the first sign of intelligence, a grasp of the state of the nation through the study of civic affairs.
We demand the education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the state.
The state must ensure that the nation's health standards are raised by protecting mothers, infants, and the unborn:
By prohibiting abortion and euthanasia, except in cases of rape, incest, race-mixing, or mental retardation
By prohibiting child labor and ending the rudiments of child abuse, alcoholism, and drug addiction.
By creating conditions to make possible the reestablishment of the nuclear family in which the father works while the mother stays at home and takes care of the children if they so choose.
By taking away the economic burden associated with childbirth and replacing it with a structured system of pay raises for those that give birth to healthy babies, thereby returning the blessing associated with children.
To further ensure that the nation's health standards are raised, legislation shall be passed promoting physical strength and providing for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and by the extensive support of clubs engaged in the physical training of youth.
We demand the right to bear arms for law-abiding citizens.
We demand the abolition of the mercenary army, the end to the over-use of our military as a 'Meals-on-Wheels' program in foreign lands of no vital interest to our nation; and the formation of a true national service for the defense of our race and nation. One that excludes: non-Americans, criminals, and sensitivity training.
We demand legal warfare on deliberate political mendacity and its dissemination in the press. To facilitate the creation of a national press we demand:
(a) That all editors of and contributors to newspapers appearing in the English language must be members of the nation;
(b) That no non-American newspapers may appear without the express permission of the State. They must not be written in the English language;
(c) That non-Whites shall be prohibited by law from participating financially in or influencing American newspapers, and that the penalty for contravening such a law shall be the suppression of any such newspapers, and the immediate deportation of the non-Americans involved.
The publishing of papers which are not conducive to the national welfare must be forbidden. We demand the legal prosecution of all those tendencies in art and literature which corrupt our national life, and the suppression of cultural events which violate this demand.
We demand absolute religious freedom for all denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence nor offend the moral feelings of the White race. The Party combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common good before self-interest.
To put the whole program into effect, we demand the creation of a strong central national government for the nation; the unconditional authority of the political central parliament over the entire nation and its organizations; and the formation of committees for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the nation and the various American States. 88!!!
posted by TOTENKOPF_VERBAENDE at 01:43 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
Well don't get to bent out of shape, Toledo. This National Socialist Movement, is for the most part, much like a big bowel movement. You really shouldn't stop it but, you don't want to look at it either. So just let them pass on through. Toledo will have the those great street-sweeping machine operators clean up afterward so everything is as good as new.
Too bad we can't burn leaves at the curb any longer, this would be a good day for it.
As for TOTENKOPF_VERBAENDE, the 25 points listed are just silly, besides these guys aren't really white it's more like a dirty gray.
posted by AmericanPie at 02:54 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
The eighth segment in our continuous live coverage of Nazifest 2005.
This one is for the theater-goer in you.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 05:03 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
All the dramatics and it's all come down to zero hour.
In the last week or so I am willing to gander some speculation that all kinds of information was bouncing off cell phone towers. I'm not surprised, seeing SOMEONE had to call the Nazi's in. What truly amazes me is the surprise this is even happening.
There was so much advanced warning on this situation, you could have built a response from scratch and still had time to grill some steaks. Yet nothing was done. Had something BEEN done, this would just be another quiet Sweetest Day.
The problem now is these factions are real. Real hatred going against real hatred going against a bunch of ignorant street thugs. The opposing forces going against each other will do nothing but create havoc.
NOW the black religious contigency, consisting of Pastor Mansour Bey and Rev. Larry Clark, are willing to make a presence, now that there will be media crawling everywhere. Damn opprotunists. Where were these people in July when this situation first reared it's ugly head?
I can't wait for the press conference over this.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 05:24 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
Wow, Totenpuff! Quite a list of demands!
I have but one question on them though....can you absolutely swear, without reservation, and with proof that there is nothing but a "pure white heritage" in your closet?
I don't think so. We are all mutts - and you're no different.
Grow up, learn something constructive and enjoy Toledo. WE are the ones that should be demanding that you keep your collectives arses out of our city, but we are larger than that.
And - for the record - Sweetest Day will go on as planned!
posted by DoknowDocare at 08:17 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
this little non event will be meaningless. you wanted to see some real action. recall the AP Parts riots. now there was a news maker.
corporate greed and the lack of a liveable wage in Toledo are the underlying causes of this issue. that and the black mans outright demand for respect. whether it has been earned or not. a march in the streets is an attention grabber. not a solution.
posted by Angrysage at 09:13 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
I remember that I got in trouble for going.
With Delphi trying to pull a fast one I'm surprised a strike isn't called across the board. We could be next. You couldn't pay a babysitter on those wages. Coporation greed is no secret to all of us yet none of us have been able to stop it. I mean come on people they make it out that the average worker make 65 dollars an hour in reality they bring home around 14 to 15 dollars. All it takes to have a corporate position in the end is who you know. You tell me they deserve multi-million dollar bonuses-If they are so smart they should be unable to teach someone else what they know. Ask me they are all replaceable JUST LIKE US!!!
Back to this subject I think it's a waste of time the average man does not get anywhere by intimidation and/or stupidity- you have to have alot of money for that.
posted by jeepgal at 10:13 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
DoKnowDoCare- I agree with you 100%!
posted by jeepgal at 10:21 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
Sheesh Brian, stop it!
We are agreeing wayyy to often. I heard it was going to cost a minimum of $45,000 for this demonstration tomorrow. Probably alot more now that there are so many "counter" demonstrators. I wondered...gee wouldn't that be close to the salary of one police officer and benefits for a year?
So for what it will cost at a minimum for one day? Alot could have been resolved (not to mention some parenting/earlier neighbor mediation).
It's pointless...unless of course you are one of the groups looking for publicity.
posted by psyche777 at 10:42 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
But, I will admit I have had fun with this..not just on my own site but Toledo Tales as well as historymike's site and doing alot of research.
I do have to say with the way all of these "pro-white" groups can't even manage to get along? They need to work on their own unity before they are even an issue for the rest of us to worry about. I find it ironic that all of these groups supposedly share a similar message but they can't even manage to be civil to each other most of the time.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 10:45 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
I assume historymike and Subcomandante_bob will cover the "event" and provide their respective angles. Those two will be my eyes and ears for Nazifest '05.
Will Jack Ford wear riot gear and be involved in making arrests? Sounds like he will. Seeing that may be worth the price of admission.
Will the local TV stations interrupt college football games to provide up-to-the-minute coverage of the Nazi/anarchist love-in? Will the local Clear Channel company provide a live radio broadcast of the parade?
posted by jr at 11:33 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 14, 2005 #
From http://onepeoplesproject.com/
From North Eastern Federation of Anarchist Communists :
"Anti-fascists from the Midwest are planning to join local residents in protesting against this neo-Nazi invasion of a Toldeo neighborhood."
"While it may appear that the NSM is just a fringe group, and that it is not worthwhile to oppose such a group, it is important to note that there is currently a power vacuum in the white power movement. Other white power organizations like the NSM realize that this power vacuum exists and are attempting to fill it. It is for this reason that the NSM will attract fascists of all stripes – in numbers – to their demonstration in Toledo. Neo-Nazis are currently seeking organization, structure, and public organizing – all of which they will be looking to the NSM for on October 15th."
"For this reason alone, it is important that anti-fascists show opposition in Toledo. This is not a time that we can we can sit back and ignore the organizing fascists are currently engaging in. We CANNOT give the neo-Nazis any room to organize and recruit. We must not allow the existing power vacuum to be filled. We must be there on October 15th in Toledo to take away any illusion of organization and power the NSM is trying to present. We must stand up and join together, sending a clear message that such activity is not welcome in our communities."
posted by jr at 12:09 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
OK, just goes to show you that no one, regardless of their outrageous views, is 100% wrong...having read the "demands" and "positions," I actually found 1 I agreed with:
We oppose the corrupting parliamentary custom of filling posts merely in accordance with party considerations and special interests-without reference to character or abilities.
Now if only they meant this as it reads and not with regard to skin color....
Personally, I think we should all ignore them and show them that they're irrelevant. Unfortunately, too many people see this as an opportunity for their own publicity and just can't resist. Those individuals do more to promote these idiots than the idiots do by their march...
posted by intrepid at 05:51 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
corporate greed and the lack of a liveable wage in Toledo are the underlying causes of this issue. that and the black mans outright demand for respect.
----------------------------------------
Demand?? You gain respect today by EARNING it-not demanding it. All that does is alienate more people. Stop living in the 60's.
posted by Foolkiller at 12:44 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=3983166
Demonstration was cancelled because of violence from some of those counter protesting.
posted by psyche777 at 01:55 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Victory in Toledo! Even tho we didnt march our message got through. Black gangs are targeting whites! Blacks do loot their neighborhoods! Blacks are savages! Wake up White America!
posted by Texas88Sniper at 01:59 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
The day isn't even over, people.
This whole thing could have been prevented had the police and religious leaders took this threat seriously.
Who learned the lesson today?
posted by BrianInFlorida at 02:21 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Suggest you guys turn on fox news - damage, hundreds of people and they caught a house on fire after they tore the hell out of it.
posted by psyche777 at 02:22 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
No police they are several blocks away, I've been following this. Have no idea who's house it is? But it is burning and badly.
posted by psyche777 at 02:23 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Just a bunch of monkeys doing what monkeys do
posted by Texas88Sniper at 02:32 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
OK, now I am watching Fox News, where Toledo is nationally known as a "racial tinderbox".
I'm looking at a large group of African-Americans setting fire to the bar.
The camera never blinks.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 02:33 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
OK, while I am watching this video, and I understand Bob McCloskey is driving the neighborhood looking for news cameras, the police has a large contigency swarmed on Mullberry.
Where did those protesters go? Who is watching them?
They went to the Clark gas station at Woodward HS.
Not one police officer.
Someone needs to tell the cops to turn on Fox News.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 02:37 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Yep, Bob was driving around looking for the crowds who were destroying that building on Mulbuerry Street. He was stating he didn't see anything going on.
At least the fire trucks finally showed up and once the police did? The crowd did move on, but you are right I just saw them show them a block or so over.
posted by psyche777 at 02:40 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
I hope Mike is okay, he was down there today.
posted by psyche777 at 02:41 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Wow! Sure puts the reputation of Mayor Jack Ford under a new light, thanks to Fox News!
The talking heads have pretty much laid waste to any claim Toledo may have had on promoting racial diversity on a national level. "A racial tinderbox, and has been for years..."
Was Bob driving that green car I saw burning near the school?
posted by BrianInFlorida at 02:45 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
I don't think so Brian, but Fox dropped his call so I don't know where he is at this point.
posted by psyche777 at 02:49 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Psyche, Mike's posted on his blog... he's trying to get a better Internet connection, but he said he's ok and in one piece.
posted by valbee at 02:52 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Thanks Val, I was checking there and hadn't seen anything so was starting to worry.
posted by psyche777 at 03:02 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Yes, in one piece, though my lungs are like leather from the tear gas.
One word for the mess: insanity. In my opinion, the police were WAY too quick to let loose with the tear gas, percussion grenades, and horse charges.
After that, the bricks and concrete chunks were everywhere.
Crappy wireless connection here in the 'hood; more later.
posted by historymike at 03:07 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Okay historymike, honest assessment. Who is responsible for most of the violence, outside anarchists or Toledoans? As we all know, the Nazis have the right to freedom of assembly.
I don't have cable TV. I've been outside working in the yard. I just tuned into the news of what happened around 3:30. I turned on my XM satellite radio and heard Fox News dog the hell out of Toledo. Bascially what BrianInFlorida said. Fox News said sociological (??) studies have shown that area of Toledo or Toledo in general to be a racial tinderbox for years.
I'm now listening to AM 950 WWJ, the all-news radio station, and they have or had a chopper flying over the area. The reporter mentioned 100-150 KIDS causing trouble.
Kids? That doesn't sound like outside anarchists to me. The reporter said a gasoline station was looted. An abandoned bar was looted and set on fire. Rock and eggs were thrown. A couple officers/firemen injured.
Does that sound like outside anarchists? The scroll on Ch 11 said hundreds of counter protesters were present. From earlier reporting by historymike, it didn't sound like that many outsiders were coming in.
posted by jr at 03:25 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
I'm not Mike of course, and he was there, but what fox was showing looked like teens/young men from our city not the outsiders that were doing the damage and the rock throwing.
It did look like there were several hundred at least when the house/bar was destroyed then set on fire.
posted by psyche777 at 03:32 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Jr, from the FOX feed I was getting from WJBK out of Detroit, there were more than 100 people congregating in front of the bar before they set it ablaze. The footage of the Clark station looting also showed more than 100 people. Forgive me, but not one white or hispanic or asian person in the group (via HDTV).
Now Jack is saying this is what the Nazi's were expecting. Jack, had you done something back in July, this wouldn't be happening. Enjoy the curfew.
I knew this was comming since July, and I'm in FLORIDA!!!!
posted by BrianInFlorida at 03:34 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Central and Start High Schools just cancelled their homecoming dances for tonight.
posted by psyche777 at 03:39 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
The Nazis slinked out.
The anarchists and communists left when all hell broke loose.
The violence was done by Toledoans - black, Hispanic, white - all colors, but mostly young.
The cops, in my opinion, started firing the tear gas, percussion grenades, and paintball rifles WAY too soon.
What was an anti-Nazi riot became an anti-cop riot.
At NO point did I hear the police try to calm the protesters before the frontal assaults began.
I think they should have said: "Hey, the Nazis are gone, let's all go home:" that sort of thing.
Instead, they marched up Mulberry saying: "This is your ONE warning."
A couple of rocks flew, then he cops fired the crowd dispersal items.
Then came bricks, concrete, wooden poles, and bottles flying from the crowds.
Then it was two hours of back and forth charges up and down Mulberry by police and the mobs.
A total cluster-f**k.
posted by historymike at 03:41 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Well this sure looked good on the National News. My appologies for asking people to just ignore the Nazi marchers from The National Socialist Movement. Apparently they never did have muac of a march, but trouble brokeout anyway. I guess a lot of the two bit gang members decided this would be a good opportunity to have some fun. I see Mayor Ford emphasized the real trouble came from mostly local adult males. He carefully didn't mention wether or not they were were adult black or white males. I hope some of the residents shot some good videos of these guys on their rampage. I suppose it must just be in their nature to destroy things, as long as they don't own them.
Why should the police officers have used considerable restraint as Chief Navarre stated in his news conference. Why have a SWAT unit if we aren't going to use it. How about having a nice flamethrower roast for a few of these worthless scums, they seem to like to seeing things burn.
posted by AmericanPie at 03:42 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
And all of this trouble happened after the Nazi march was cancelled, right? Let me get this straight. Nazis show up to march, which is still legal to do in this country. Thugs show up to apparently beat the hell out of the Nazis, which is still illegal. The march is cancelled, so hundreds of thugs with nothing to do decide destroy our own city? And I'd like to know more about what historymike said, about the cops possibly overreacting too soon. Did the cops ignite the rioting and looting?
Seems to me if you have hundreds of young men gathered together along the street, nothing good is going to happen. No matter what the police did, the rioting probably would have still ocurred.
Looks like a bunch of Toledoans have disgraced our city and made us a national embarrassment. Congrats. Obviously these goons need a lesson on what our fundamental rights are. Not only that, but these Toledo idiots may have slightly validated the whole reason why the Nazis showed up.
posted by jr at 03:47 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Also, FOX has it all wrong (maybe it should be FAUX NEws).
They are trying to analyze this from a few helicopter photos.
FOX's reporting is total bullshit; I just popped into a restaurant to charge my laptop (amazing - another wireless signal!) and almost choked on my food.
This was a poorly-designed event that was ripe for disaster, but the reaction by the police to the initial signs of unrest was, IMHO, overkill. I think there were moments when they could have calmed the crowd before things got out of hand.
It seemed like the police waited for the first sign of trouble and then WHAM!!! out came the tear gas cannisters, percussion grenades (those SOB's are LOUD), paintball rifles, and pepper spray.
Are the actions of the rioters acceptable? No f***ing way.
Could this have been prevented? Yes, if the response had not been so immediate and intense.
I actually felt safer on the mob side than the police side. I was taking cover on the porch of an abandoned house when a cop screamed at me:"GET OFF THE F**KNG PORCH OR YOU"RE GOING TO JAIL!"
I had no trouble on the other side, and mingled freely getting interviews. I was in greatest danger when I verntured near the police, where bottle, bricks, and concrete were everywhere.
More later.
posted by historymike at 03:49 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
historymike, war reporter.
Is it possible, historymike, that undercover police were mixed in with the crowd, surveying the situation, and therefore the police knew the mob was "armed" and ready to strike?
Why was the march cancelled? The march never got started, right? If it was cancelled before it got started, then the police had to know something ahead of time besides the number of people standing around.
AM 950 is reporting that Mayor Ford is saying that "something" is possibly related to neighborhood gangs. I didn't catch all of the statement. I don't know if Ford is saying today's violence is gang related or not.
posted by jr at 04:04 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
The mayor said in his press conference that those involved were gang members, wearing colors. He also kept saying they were "young men." They must really look young, because what I saw on the news looked like a lot of 15-year olds (or around that age).
posted by valbee at 04:14 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Oh, there were definitely gangs. I talked to dozens of gang members, but not all of the rowdies were gangsters. Also, it is hard in a mob to determine real gangsters from wannabes on a day like this.
Problem #1:
The police allowed the Nazis to stand on Stickney and taunt the crowd:"The Toledo Zoo is calling for the monkeys to come back," "Why don't you get back to work? Oh that's right, you niggers are unemployed," and bullshit like that.
Problem #2:
The Nazis were then escorted to Woodward HS for a press conference. The crowd, perhaps 800, was not allowed to got through Wilson Park. They instead ran all down the sidesteets in the neighborhood from Stickney. This meant that almost all the police were congregated in Wilson Park, and no one was following the mob through the neighborhood.
Problem #3:
The mob began to gather by Mulberry and Bronson. We were by the Nazis when we saw the police start to hightail it to Mulberry. Most of the media stayed behind to listen to the Nazi buffoon Bill White spout off about gangs and Jews. The police set up a wall of riot cops on Mulberry, just down from Wilson Park. The crowd then became focused not on the Nazis, but on the police. Bad move.
Problem #4: The police did not attempt to calm the crowd. It was clear that their first response was going to be swift, tactical, and fierce. It was.
posted by historymike at 04:21 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
HistoryMike,
You can thank the feed from WJBK for that footage.
Mike is right, I saw no other ethnics other than African American in those crowds. I'm one of those that watches Fox for my shot of daily comedy, but this was stunning to watch.
Be interesting to hear of Mike's interviews, that's for sure.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 04:21 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
I have a question...Mayor Ford is quoted saying "The gangs in Toledo used the Nazi March as an opportunity to settle griveances"
What kind of grievances would a "gang" have that would warrant any kind of violent actions?
posted by MARIELORA at 04:26 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
For the past week or two, Toledo officials have been downplaying the gang situation in Toledo. I'd say it's alive and well.
I'm watching USC-ND football game, and the NBC 24 scroll at the bottom is saying the violence continues "this hour." I'm not sure what hour they are referring to. Violence isn't still occurring is it?
posted by jr at 04:26 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
jr, Agreed..."gangs are VERY ALIVE AND WELL in Toledo...
This situation needed to be taken MORE SERIOUS this past June-July...
It honestly...does not take much to stir Racial Unrest...
Believe me...I have been a Toledoan for 50 years...seen many Racial Incidents...all that's need is any kind of opportunity and all are accompanied with Violence.
posted by MARIELORA at 04:31 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
The 'looters' that initially were on video trying to kick in the door of the tavern on Central/Mulberry were probably in their late teens/early 20s.
The group of 'kids' that paraded in front of the camera were in their mid teens and were black, white and hispanic. All of them making hand gestures commonly associated with gangs. They were not in any particular color(s) and appeared to be on a adrenaline high. The ISO and Antifa groups were wearing black shirts/pants/and bandanas. Some of the shirts had designs depicting a raised middle finger and a gun.
For Jack Ford to say "The gangs in Toledo used the Nazi March as an opportunity to settle griveances" is contradictory to his previous statements that Toledo does NOT have a gang problem. Which is it, Jack?
And yes, Mike, percussion grenades are very loud. Tear gas is not a friend of the respiratory system or of the tear ducts. If they were benign in irritating the senses, they would be totally ineffective. I am just glad that the police have been using alternative control methods rather than unloading their service weapons into crowds of people. Some folks make it harder to get their attention. And for the record - crowd control does not work when Officer Friendly attempts to walk up to a group of incensed citizens and asks them to move back, please, and let this matter calm down. When you have a large group of people that have lost control of all reason, it is in the best interest of the rest of the citizenry to inflict swift and effective consequences. The aftermath is still aftermath. No method of crowd control at that point was going to alter the events that followed.
And - I did see and talk with Bob McCloskey, as well as Jack Ford, Karen Shanahan, Mark Szobcak, Judge Kuhlman, Carty Finkbeiner, Joe Birmingham and Bob Vasquez. McCloskey was not the only one present. Even Lourdes Santiago (sic) was among the politicos attending in North Toledo.
posted by DoknowDocare at 05:00 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
During halftime of the football game, NBC 24 news took over, and I got my first video glimpse of Toledo Gangfest '05. Disgusting. Interesting, none of 24's video coverage showed the Nazis.
historymike reports:
"The police allowed the Nazis to stand on Stickney and taunt the crowd:"The Toledo Zoo is calling for the monkeys to come back," "Why don't you get back to work? Oh that's right, you niggers are unemployed," and bullshit like that."
But those are still only words.
When the police start launching tear gas, etc. into a crowd that won't go away, it means go away. I don't believe anything the Nazis or police did justifies the reaction by the mob. NBC 24 said the police knew that some in the mob were carrying guns. It had to be a tense situation for the police too.
It won't surprise me if the police get a lot of the blame from the media and from so-called community leaders. It's easy to blame the police. They are in a no-win situation. No matter what they did or didn't do, they would get blamed for something. And it's always easy to blame someone else instead of taking responsibility.
Ford said the Nazis got what they wanted. Don't try that crap, Ford. This is not the fault of the Nazis. They stood and yelled. That's not the same thing as destroying property and injuring people, which is what the mob did.
The Toledo gangs showed themselves to be beneathe the Nazis, and I didn't think that was possible. I guess it was too much to ask of the Toledo thugs to take the high road, the intelligent road and simply igore the Nazis.
It seems the gangs showed up for a fight with the Nazis, and when the Nazis didn't have their march, the gangs took it out on the police. I mean, come on. Do you think gangs like the police to begin with?
posted by jr at 05:09 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Syndicate ToledoTalk
