The nazi's weren't the ones rioting in the street - I didn't see them rioting, burning buildings, fighting with the police - I saw gang members doing that
posted by Toledolaw05 at 03:26 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Thats what I said. Now the Nazi morons will use this to justify what they do.
posted by JeepMaker at 03:34 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
We have some photos and a preliminary story at www.toledofreepress.com.
posted by Fuselighter at 03:41 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Maybe the Nazis had a point that there is a gang problem in the area.
posted by Terrahawk1 at 03:41 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
There are gangs all over Toledo.
The Nazis inflamed a smaller problem into a massive riot.
The Nazis should stay in their own world.
With all due respect, the Nazis have no credibility. They taunted the crowd with racial epithets for an hour before things got out of hand.
posted by historymike at 03:54 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Well this sure looked good on the National News. My appologies for asking people to just ignore the Nazi marchers from The National Socialist Movement. Apparently they never did have much of a march, but trouble brokeout anyway. I guess a lot of the two bit gang members decided this would be a good opportunity to have some fun. I see Mayor Ford emphasized the real trouble came from mostly local adult males. He carefully didn't mention wether or not they were were adult black or white males. I hope some of the residents shot some good videos of these guys on their rampage. I suppose it must just be in their nature to destroy things, as long as they don't own them.
Why should the police officers have used considerable restraint as Chief Navarre stated in his news conference. Why have a SWAT unit if we aren't going to use it. How about having a nice flamethrower roast for a few of these worthless scums, they seem to like to seeing things burn.
posted by AmericanPie at 03:56 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Also, the Nazis could not vandalize or riot.
They were too busy running for their fascist lives under police escort away from Woodward High School.
posted by historymike at 03:56 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Terrahawk1, states...Maybe the Nazis had a point that there is a gang problem in the area.
Yes, there is a HUGE PROBLEM problem in the area...that should have been given more attention back in June-July...
I for one, was 100 percent positive there would be VIOLENCE ...the NAZI'S coming to Toledo, in my opinion, was an excuse for the VIOLENCE today...
posted by MARIELORA at 03:57 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
I saw all colors of people.
I had a good interview with some Hispanic teens who were very knowledgeable about the local situation.
Were there more blacks than whites? Yes. Was this a pretty mixed crowd? Definitely yes.
Also, I saw a lot more white officers than black, especially in the front lines. Would it have made better sense to get more African American officers up front?
posted by historymike at 03:59 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Mike, what are you babbling about? First, the people vandalising on the video where black. Now was there a crowd that got dispersed that was not vandalising that was mixed? I don't know, but it's definitely not on the video I saw.
Two, what does the color of the person have to do with enforcing the law? Maybe we should just have blacks patrol black neighborhoods and whites patrol white neighborhoods, right? That is just a plain stupid comment. I give my respect to a police officer regardless of race. Why shouldn't anyone else?
While I hate the white supremacy movement, they do have the right to march and exercise their First Amendment rights.
posted by Terrahawk1 at 04:12 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
While I hate the white supremacy movement, they do have the right to march and exercise their First Amendment rights.
posted by Terrahawk1 at 05:12 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
I agree Teerahawk1, YES they have the RIGHT to march...
I had mentioned on another topic, I reside in the neighbrhood that racial violence broke out, when an officer wounded an African American child that was vandalizing his property...
Reverand Rose and "HIS" people marched down my Street...
Reverand Rose and "HIS" people actually knocked on our doors, asking us "WHERE THE OFFICER'S HOME WAS"...
posted by MARIELORA at 04:21 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
OK - gotta toss in my two cents...
I was at Lagrange and Central at the start of all this nonsense. I talked with probably 50-60 people that were walking and milling around. Those folks ALL stated that they thought this was ridiculous. For the record, those folks were white, black and hispanic. There were Polish and Jew alike.
The Nazi Morons (I like the moniker) do have the right to march/protest/demnonstrate. I don't care for their politics, but I am more fearful of losing my civil/constitutional rights if we attempt to make 'special rules' for certain groups.
The trouble makers were a VERY mixed group of ethnicities. There were black, white and hispanic that were visible to me. They were male and female. The females actually had much worse language than the males.
Our police department, while ashamedly understaffed, did what they were ordered to do. The officers on the line don't get to make the decisions on how to handle the crowds. You will have a small group of command officers that are steering that ship and the line officers just have to deal with it. I can tell you that there were MANY officers who don't agree with how it was handled, but it's their job to proceed with the orders.
On a more positive note - I shook hands with, got hugs from and giggles from ALL races - black, white, hispanic, asian, etc. They were in attendance at an alternative event that focused on unity instead of division.
It might be more productive to realize that Toledo has some extremely motivated, talented, enlightened, and dedicated citizens. If we let our focus stay on the troublemakers, then that is the picture that we will be conveying to strangers, even without realizing it.
We, as a city, will get through this. And when it's over we should stand back and ask just what part each and every one of us is willing to take responsibility for. Even if you weren't there you had an impact.
If we, as a city/community, do not pull our collective heads out of the sand and realize that what happens in North Toledo will have a ripple effect on West Toledo/South Toledo/Sylvania/Maumee, then we will deserve the end result.
I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that this mess settles down with as little loss as is possible - loss of property, loss of life, loss of pride, loss of our city. I hope it works.
posted by DoknowDocare at 04:27 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Ummm...Terrahawk... I was asked about the composition of the crowd, and I answered it.
As far as "babbling," you might look in the mirror for that. I was there, dude. I am reporting what I saw.
Secondly, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that a more balanced blend of white and black officers might have defused the situation. The front line police were overwhelmingly white, facing a crowd that was at least two-thirds black. They quickly turned in their anger from the Nazis to the police; the perception is that the police were more concerned about the Nazis than the neighborhood citizens.
I said "balanced," not "separate."
posted by historymike at 04:28 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Rhetorical commentary:
If all were visually impaired to the point of being totally blind, would there still be discussion of skin color or ethnicity?
Perhaps the discussion would center on the particular scents of the persons involved, or perhaps the pitch of each of their voices, or some other such means of discriminating one from another.
posted by RolandHansen at 04:30 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Well, according to the Free Press:
In particular, the house of Thomas Szych was severely vandalized, with the
front door and windows on both stories smashed.
Seems like in the end all the NSM did was as predicted make it worse for him and his family.
posted by psyche777 at 04:44 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Boy, I'm glad I decided not to show up. (I didn't show because every news item I saw failed to tell me WHERE and WHEN the rally or march was being held. I really didn't feel like driving or waltzing around Lagrange Street looking for crowds.)
Sadly, it appears that violence has resulted. But the blame here belongs solely upon the people who raised their hands against people and property. And it seems that that means "gangs" (whatever the definition of THAT is, pending investigation and reporting from the arrests).
We may not like Nazis, but their point is well made. The gangs of criminally-acting youths are a problem. They've always been a problem. Issuing threats to neighbors is the historical minimum of the problem.
Fortunately, we have law enforcement in Toledo that's paid to arrest people upon sight or qualified report of illegal activity. As long as said law enforcement actually DOES react to illegal activity, then I've no worries about the situation.
As well, we also have armed citizenry who can fill the gaps when police are overwhelmed during riots. (This is yet another important reason I'm the owner of a battle rifle.)
We have to get real about the nature of civil disobedience. Not liking a Nazi group is one thing. Raising your voice and fists in public demonstration is also one thing. But doing THESE:
- loot a gas station
- overturn a car
- loot a liquor store
- burn that same liquor store
- assaulting people on the street
... do NOT fall under valid expressions of speech or assembly.
Did these store owners display Nazi regalia in their shops? Did they harbor Nazis as a matter of course? What, exactly, are these store owners guilty of (except the usual price gouging and predatory consumerism)?
I think that a previous poster is essentially correct at his core argument. He seems to be indicating that if an expression of speech and assembly "causes" a riot, then the rioters have a suspect morality.
We cannot devolve into a society that doesn't tolerate speech and assembly that are NOT in the most widely accepted forms. Once again, we must see that liberty is dependent upon the principle of tolerance. And "intolerance of intolerance" is just another form of intolerance, hence invalid by the design of the moral and legal bases of American society.
To end this rant, what occurred today was not just intolerance of intolerance. It was also intolerance of the freedoms of speech and assembly, and has resulted in blatant crimes like criminal damage, burglary, and assault.
P.S. Boy, THIS is going to spin Ford's crime stats out of whack. Keep in mind that we should be watching Ford for evidence of doctoring these stats from this event.
posted by GuestZero at 04:55 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
"...I think it'll be a good thing..." Szych said.
Total moron. The city should sue him for the expenses incurred.
posted by Prate at 04:57 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Freedom of Speech is protected by the 1st Amendment.
If some terrorist jews in the hate-group ARA instigate the local violent oriented Blacks to be Race Violent, then it's the those specific criminal Blacks and those specific criminal Jews who have to be tried in public court.
Violence is just not acceptable.
posted by WhiteAmerican at 04:58 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Roland - good point. And well taken.
But, just by the nature of the 'human factor,' there will always be some sort of discrimination.
If the entire world were sightless, there are indeed those that would focus on some trait other than skin color.
The only (questionably) humorous part of that would be that we would all have to get close enough to each other to hear, smell or (heaven forbid!) touch each other.
posted by DoknowDocare at 05:08 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Skin color is one of the genetic traits of each human race. Behaviour is also DNA related.
If we were blind, then yes, we'd still hear the Toledo Riots on the radio.
posted by WhiteAmerican at 05:11 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Whoa, I didn't know this thread existed. I've been in the other one.
I agree with what GuestZero said.
Toledo Free Press pic:
What did Ch 13 do besides cover the event? Was the mob violence directed at others besides the police? If so, I can't see how any of it can be justified no matter what the police did and the Nazis said. If the police somehow got out of control and the mob directed their anger only at the police, that would be one thing. But it seems others not involved were also targeted by the mob.
posted by jr at 05:32 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
I find it ironic that the Nazi group came to protest gang violence of blacks against whites, and then the gangs decide to vandalize and hurt people. Maybe the Nazis are extreme, but they might also be right. I mean, this is EXACTLY what they were protesting, and it happened. I know Mike is saying that there were "all races" involved there, but if you mean 1 white, 1 hispanic, and 98 black people, I'd say it was mainly black people causing problems just as these Nazis said they were. If this was done in a jewish neighborhood, something tells me we wouldn't see violence over a bunch of Nazis protesting. And Mike says they were hurling insults for an hour? So what? Laugh them off or *gasp* don't stand there and listen. It seems like Mike is doing everything except admitting the truth of who is really responsible: The violent blacks in Toledo. And judging by the size of the crowd, it's not just gang blacks that are violent and up to no good.
posted by TigerWoodz at 05:39 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
posted by DoknowDocare at 05:27 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 There were Polish and Jew alike.
I'm Polish and Jewish, what does that make me?
posted by Judy at 05:48 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
"I'm Polish and Jewish, what does that make me? "
Are you involved in the terrorist Jew ARA which started these riots?
posted by WhiteAmerican at 05:51 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Oh brother, It sounds like WhiteAmerican has been listening to the "Bill White" version being touted on Hal Turner's show.
:-)
Joined up today just to share your thoughts I see....
posted by psyche777 at 05:55 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Blade story.
"Mr. Ford said those protesting were mainly male gang members in their 20s. He said the protests were not triggered by race relations but by gang members with grievances. "We went to talk to them. Most of them were gang members in full colors," the mayor said. "Their anger was based on some long-standing things but also that we had allowed the [Nazi] walk to occur in the first place." "
Have to find the stories in the past week where Toledo officials claimed the gang situation was overblown.
Also from the Blade story:
"The violence started around noon as police were getting ready to escort about 15 Nazis on a march ..."
15? Is that a typo? Are one or two zeroes to the right of the five missing? 15? All of this mob violence because the Toledo thugs couldn't contain themselves over what 15 people were saying. Now I thought a TV station put the Nazi number at 24. Either way, is that all that showed up for the Nazi side?
From the Blade story:
"A mob of at least 500 people threw bricks and rocks at police and vehicles."
15 Nazis, and a mob of 500 goes nuts. No justification for that kind of behavior.
More from the Blade story:
"Toledo Police chief Mike Navarre praised his officers, saying they "performed remarkably" and showed a lot of restraint. Before sending in police in force to make arrests at around 3:30 p.m., Mayor Ford and Toledo Fire Department chief Mike Bell approached the mob and attempted to negotiate a compromise. But as they talked, and as the crowd yelled and screamed at them, looters broke into the bar at Central and Mulberry and began taking merchandise."
If the above is true, then there's no way the police can be blamed for overreacting. The police and firemen tried to talk peace, but the mob started rioting. It appears the police responded to the mob, and not the other way around.
Check it out:
"Mr. Bell eventually began walking back toward a large group of police shaking his head. "No more negotiating," he said. "We’re done. They just set a building on fire." "
posted by jr at 05:55 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
In black majority New Orleans blacks went about looting and destroying.
In white majority towns across New England the recent floods find whites...surviving.
In Toledo OH, the vicious ARA and OPP pulls a few strings and incites a black riot, like they really needed to anyway.
The NSM were addressing a valid concern which was not being met. Everyone else was afraid to address these concerns for fear of rocking the boat. However, it was not the NSM's fault the blacks rioted. It's what they do as a group more than any other in a historical context. The irony here is the Million More March was taking place in DC at the same, with one speaker calling for the 'extermination' of the white race.
Just a few decades ago whites were a confident race, proud of their achievements, convinced of their fitness to dominate the globe. Today they are a declining, apologetic people, ashamed of their history and not sure even of their claim to lands they have occupied for centuries.
It is very rare for fundamental concepts to be stood on their heads in the course of just a generation or two, as has happened with thinking about race. Such speed suggests there has been something more than natural change.
posted by MotorWolf at 06:00 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Another newbie with an agenda heard from. I'd be surprised if you live in Toledo either.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 06:06 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
What does 777 mean in your handle?
Why are you defending a Jewish terror organization such as the ARA whose site says the following: "Columbus' ARA group, to co-ordinate and sustain the constant protests"
and.."The Chicago ARA crew banned the wearing of American flags patches on jackets"
Tell me that's not Judeo-Fasicsm and Zionazism.
posted by WhiteAmerican at 06:11 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Okay, WhiteAmerican, stick with the topic and not attacking someone's username.
posted by jr at 06:15 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Jewish Morons in the Zionazi Judeo-Fascist org are claiming responsibilty.
Check the web. There is a video showing the Fascist ARA claiming credit.
posted by WhiteAmerican at 06:19 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
I'm not defending anything, merely stating you joined today, probably don't live in Toledo and? If the ARA was even present they did not cause what happened today. People still have responsibility for their own behavior. The NSM does have freedom of speech, I don't agree with them and the end result today demonstrates why this never ends up working unless the intent is to get PR just the same as I don't agree with the ARA or any other similar group. Nor do I care if they claim "credit" for anything. The majority of the violence/destruction today was done by Toledoans who for whatever reason, age, lack of maturity, issues with police are the ones who were wrong. I don't care if 10000 nazis marched thru the streets. Violence is not acceptable as a solution.
If you are really interested in my "handle" if you do bother to stick around maybe we can discuss mythology and the relevence of the number 7 some other time.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 06:33 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Good back on topic.
Why can't a political group march through our streets without being violently stopped?
That is a very serious issue for all of Ohio.
posted by WhiteAmerican at 06:37 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
I think the Police are supposed to provide safe escort for an approved political organization march.
Why did not the Police use helicopters and sniper teams to ensure the Whites could march peacefully through a violent Toledo neighborhood?
posted by WhiteAmerican at 06:38 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Saturday evening ...
Hey, nice job Toledo thugs. You made the big time. Except it wasn't a race riot. According to the Blade story above: "[Mayor Ford] said the protests were not triggered by race relations but by gang members with grievances."
The people protecting the city tried for a peaceful solution, but the mob said no. Toledo's own police, firemen, EMS, media, etc. were attacked by Toledoans.
I like what fire chief Bell said after the mob got unruly: "No more negotiating. We’re done."
posted by jr at 06:59 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Because people feel they have to "counter protest" which almost always leads to one group or the other letting anger rather than logic come into play.
It ends up with a few people with an axe to grind who end up starting the destruction and the mob mentality kicks in.
Which is why I didn't want the NSM using our City for their PR moment. However, they do have the right to free speech, if everyone would have just stayed home? Would have been a non-issue.
I don't think trying to label that neighborhood as violent is accurate. Prior to today's mess most of the problems were related to two neighbors and is currently in mediation.
posted by psyche777 at 07:04 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Judy - the statement referred to was only a journalistic illustration that no single group/ethnicity was indicated.
And as for what that makes you??? I'd say a woman in Toledo.
posted by DoknowDocare at 07:17 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
It's a topic of discussion at MetaFilter and Free Republic.
posted by jr at 07:18 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
physce777, there are neighborhoods that are considered not the safest and nicest enviroment to live in and "gangs" are NOT a good thing, they are for the most part, VIOLENT...that being said...my neighborhood too is labeled as I am located not too far from a "Housing Project"...though...I don't see it as an UNSAFE place to live.
What really gets me about this whole thing...the City has KNOWN about this situation...it does not take a genius to know there would be violence with all these different groups protesting...I even knew that!!!
I do not understand why this situation wasn't given more attention back in June and July...
physce777, you mentioned PR, well check this out...the Toledo March made the front News of MSN...Titled...Anti-Nazi Crowd cause RIOTS... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9707507/
posted by MARIELORA at 07:20 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Our Web site now has a full gallery of photos at www.toledofreepress.com.
posted by Fuselighter at 07:48 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
says its under construction
posted by swantucky at 08:18 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
I am a Proud to be Polish-American-Jewish Woman in Toledo and wish more of the people today had some pride.
posted by Judy at 08:27 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
It's not a direct link. Sorry. Just visit the Web site without using the link in my post.
posted by Fuselighter at 08:32 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
It's the period at the end of the url that's messing it up.
http://www.toledofreepress.com/
posted by psyche777 at 08:36 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Marie, I'm not claiming that is the most crimefree neighborhood in Toledo, however the facts remain that the majority of "gang" activity especially related to why the NSM chose to come here was related to junior high age kids and an ongoing squabble between the neighbors.
It's obvious the claim that unity existed there was not true, not only from the standpoint of preventing the cause of the NSM coming and today's behavior. Where were the parents? Some of them standing there watching this crap happen. While supposedly according to Mayor Ford these were not kids they were grown men? There were sure alot of kids involved in today's mess. Even the photos on the freepress demonstrate this one, as well as the numerous videos.
As I've said all along, it's not just the responsibility of the police, it is the responsibility of us as parents, neighbors, Toledoans. Obviously today we failed.
posted by psyche777 at 08:45 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Thanks, Psyche777. I've been doing that for six months.
As a side note, Jerry Seinfeld was in Toledo tonight, and reportedly spent quite a bit of time talking about the Nazis. Did anyone catch any of his comments?
posted by Fuselighter at 08:46 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Secondly, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that a more balanced blend of white and black officers might have defused the situation. The front line police were overwhelmingly white, facing a crowd that was at least two-thirds black. They quickly turned in their anger from the Nazis to the police; the perception is that the police were more concerned about the Nazis than the neighborhood citizens.
Why would a blend of officers make a difference? Are you saying that black people only respect black police officers (hence they are racist)? Maybe if there had been more black police officers, the hispanics would have rioted because they were under-represented. Either we put racial differences aside and agree that everyone is treated the same, or we just agree that racial differences matter. I'm tired of the excuses that blacks do or don't because of whites.
Consider there were only, at most, 25 Nazis and a crowd of 500 counter-protesters, the police would be protecting the smaller crowd. Also, as seen by the results, the anti-protesters were the violent ones.
It's a sad day in Toledo.
posted by Terrahawk1 at 09:05 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
No fuselighter I missed Jerry's comments, I did however listen to Bill White of the NSM group and his "version" of what happened.
You want to talk about spin? lol
I also realize you've been talking about this even before I did. At least we know some of us in this city still have some common sense. What's saddest of all is now things are so much worse than they were before. What they did to Thomas Szych's home as well as other places was totally uncalled for.
posted by psyche777 at 09:58 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
i was at the first show for seinfeld tonight. I don't remember specifics about the Nazi's.... just that he kind of made fun of "the Rally" on several occassions.
I am disappointed in the way Toledo looks to the nation. As if this is really a place any business or family would want to come to now! We look like such ignorant fools. It's just depressing and I am sorry to be so unproductive and demoralizing with my comment. Maybe after I have had some time to cool off, I might actually be able to comment on this topic without emotion.
posted by alexandra at 10:11 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
As far as "babbling," you might look in the mirror for that. I was there, dude. I am reporting what I saw.
------------------------------------------
'Dude'? :D :D :D :D :D :D
The only time Toledo ever makes the national news is when it's a great tragedy or something embarassing.
posted by Foolkiller at 10:28 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
I am disappointed in the way Toledo looks to the nation.
Ditto. On everything you said, Alexandra. I've started and stopped so many posts today for the same reason. This is my hometown. This is where I've grown up. It hurts to see that something like this has happened.
posted by valbee at 10:43 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
The nation will forget, tomorrow on Fox and CNN another story will hit the attention of the rest of the nation.
We here are a different story. We can either let this be something that drags us down or? Do what should have been done in the first place that would have prevented this and end up making it a better place for us all.
I choose making it better and that's something I think we all agree on. Sometimes it takes something really stupid like today to happen to make people pay attention. Granted it would be nice if it didn't come to that but most times we don't act until something really drastic happens. Toledo had it's wake up call so now? It's up to us to make sure this is not repeated.
Now? It's one of you guys turn to do the let's turn this into a positive thing.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 11:04 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Here is a positive thing - I got a cyber hug from psyche777!!!! *happy dance*
posted by alexandra at 11:17 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
lmao and we agreed once again alexandra..now that is positive.
we also as a web community joined together, we put our political differences aside and we were all Toledoans first. Sure it's a crappy way to have that happen but? This won't destroy us. Hell we survived John Denver we'll get thru this.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 11:32 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
Hate breeds more hate. Love conquers all. Positive, progressive, constructive community involvement is and always has been the key to the betterment of centers of population. Agree to disagree and work together cooperatively on those things with which we do agree.
posted by RolandHansen at 06:51 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Toledo, I am standing and laughing with my finger pointing at you.
A couple of Neo Nazis could have marched through a neighborhood to protest black gang violence, and nobody would have taken much notice. Although perhaps they should have. Neo Nazi politics are disturbing, but perhaps we can all agree that gang violence is a huge problem in Toledo that needs to be dealt with.
Jack Ford made a big stink about it, and called his constituents (said gang members) to the streets to protest.
The mob then proved correct every viscious thing the Neo Nazis said about them!
These boobs should have chilled out at home and watched a bit of the OSU vs. MSU game, pointing at laughing at the sheetheads outside. But now the entire country is pointing and laughing at them.
posted by paddington at 08:12 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Look at this lie:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051016/ap_on_re_us/nazi_march
"White Supremacists Riot In Toledo"
I'm not even white, so I have no vested interested in sticking up for Neo Nazis. But the headline is a complete lie. It wasn't the Neo Nazis that were rioting.
The media is complete and utter lies. It makes you question every news story you've heard when they make such an egregious distortion like this.
posted by paddington at 08:16 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
The counter-protesters accomplished their goal by showing up in large enough numbers to prevent the march, but for some reason, they weren't satisfied with that. What is the logical explanation for the mob attacking paramedics who were responding to a call that was not related to the riot? What's the rational explanation for looting and burning a business? Those actions can't be blamed on the Nazis no matter how demented the Nazis are. The mob needed a convenient excuse to cause mayhem.
Seeing Mayor Ford interviewed on NBC 24, it sounds like the mob threatened police and firemen when they were trying to obtain a peaceful conclusion. I think the Mayor may have also been threatened. It seems the mob had no intent on resolving the situation peacefully.
The mob was upset that the city allowed the Nazis into their "hood." Do they teach constitutional rights in the public schools anymore? I think the mob believes that injuring people and destroying property is a form of free speech.
And how much of a role did the outside anarchists play in the riot? I've heard a couple reporters say the anarchists were intentionally trying to get the locals riled up, so the locals would respond violently. I have feeling that not much stoking was needed to get the mob to react.
And is it true that the Nazis are planning a return trip to Toledo in a few weeks? One local TV station said since the Nazis didn't get to have their march, they are planning to return to Toledo in three or four weeks. I think Ford said the city would be ready.
In the same Ch 24 interview or in another one, Ford was asked what he would have done differently. Ford said he might have challenged the legal system and tried to prevent the Nazis from gathering. I wonder if the ACLU would have intervened if Ford did do that?
posted by jr at 08:49 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
I think you may have misread that(or I'm missing something). It says Anti White Supremacist Protesters Roit.
posted by jeepgal at 08:52 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Paddington - I understand your disgust with the entire situation, but I have to point out that the article you refer to is actually titled, "Anti-White Supremacist Protesters Riot."
Right now there are so many media sources, all providing their own rushed version of yesterday's events, it would appear as though the stories don't match. In reality, once the media push to be first with the story is put aside, the more accurate information will be available.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I spend lots of hours working with several community based gtoups, some in North Toledo, and I can assure you that all of them have been warning the city that this would eventually happen if there is not more emphasis placed on community programs and youth activities. Yesterday's events have only made me more determined to make it work.
Unfortunately, effective parenting has decreased over the years, for the most part. There are hundreds of reasons (or excuses, if you prefer) as to why.
We, as a community, need to agree that we ALL are responsible for the situation in our city today. If you have just one hour a week, I ask you to share that time with your community. Get involved, get interested, learn about your city, and help bring pride back to Toledo.
posted by DoknowDocare at 08:54 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
From Frank Szollosi's blog:
"Mayor Ford, Chief Bell, Pastor Mansour Bey, Lagrange activist Ramon Perez and mayoral staffer Alan Bannister left the command center about 3:00pm to walk into the crowd and attempt to negotiate a peaceful resolution. They were advised that there were angry people with sticks, rocks, and guns - and that they would be going in without uniformed officers."
"They grabbed a bullhorn and walked two blocks, through the police barricade, and into a crowd of hundreds. I was told that the Mayor was confronted and threatened. A man with a face mask and a revolver in his belt. They were surrounded by angry people with sticks and stones, and that it was difficult to talk with everyone shouting questions at the Mayor. The Mayor & co. were in there for 45 minutes listening, attempting to settle folks."
"The crowd explained to the Mayor they were upset that the City let Nazi's into the neighborhood, and that the police protected the Nazi's and "pushed around" locals, then fired tear gas and flash bombs."
"There were reports that anarchists and skin heads worked to rile up the crowd against the Nazi's AND the police."
"The residents who looted and fought police need to take a long look in the mirror - Toledoans, Americans, are better than that. All that those sad, pathetic white supremacists deserved was laughter and pity - not violent, self-defeating responses. The actions of many in Toledo today were nothing short of appalling."
posted by jr at 09:19 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
The antifa are claiming victory over at http://onepeoplesproject.com/
Ohio Nazi Marched Squashed!
National Socialist Movement flees Toledo!
Antifa battle Police!
Multiple Arrests!
Bill White PISSED!
"You know things are interesting when they are being covered on the news live! Here's the deal: all HELL broke loose in Toledo! We will have more on this shortly, but the one thing we can confirm is that there was no march. The National Socialist Movement (NSM) actually fled the scene as things got raucous. Now normally when that happens, that means the police end up getting into a huge battle with the assembled counter demonstrators. Why should today be any different?"
"The Associated Press reported that two dozen Nazis came out for the NSM march against gang violence, while antifa only counted twelve. Whatever the real count was, it was dwarfed by the large numbers that came out against them. Four to five chapters of Anti Racist Action (ARA) were represented, as was the International Socialist Organization (ISO), but the largest group were community members themselves. Larges still were the number of police officers that were deployed for the march. At a certain point about one-quarter of a mile away along the planned route on Mulberry near Central, the cops reportedly charged the antifa. When this happened, the assembled Nazis, fearing they were now vulnerable ran off, and authorities announced via loudspeaker that the march was cancelled."
posted by jr at 09:33 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Some have speculated that Jack Ford told the police not to suppress the black rioters, because there's an election coming up and he does not want to antagonize his own community, his own base of voters.
But that strategy sure backfired.
posted by paddington at 09:34 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
A comment at MetaFilter:
"The best way to get rid of these stupid "neo-Nazis" would've been to just line the demonstration route, point, and laugh. Let them know that the rest of the world finds them a comical throwback, an emblem of stupidity."
Yes, that would be best. Maybe that will actually happen if the Nazis do return. But rioting is easier than showing restraint and pointing and laughing. Tearing down is always easier than building up.
To me, the most disturbing aspect about this whole thing is how the mob treated the Mayor, the police, the EMS, and the firemen. The mob abused the people who would be in that neighborhood today, if necessary, rescuing and protecting them.
posted by jr at 09:55 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
I am trying to skip the garbage posted by some of the nazi folk on this board, so forgive me if I missed that someone already posted this thought...
Do you think if Jack Ford had been a little bit more proactive, the rioters yesterday wouldn't have felt the need to protest, if they had felt that Mayor Ford actually cared about their problems?
If I had the Mayor's ear, I would have suggested that he been much more active before the planned "march" - perhaps if he had used the media to reach out and speak. A black person, speaking to black people - telling them to have pride! Perhaps he could have held a rally for Toledoans to show Toledo Pride. Perhaps he could have reached out to all races and give an alternative to this march.... Perhaps he could have explained or warned to those of us who couldn't figure it out on their own - DO NOT GIVE IN TO WHAT THESE FOLKS WANT! Toledo, DON'T EMBERRASS YOURSELF!!!" I am disappointed that Mayor Ford just pretty much showed up "after".
There is a press conference at 11 AM today... It will be on Fox National News.... probably other national news will also cover this.
psyche, thanks for your comment earlier! I agree that out of this, we can all put our political differences aside and be Toledoans. I think that is a wonderful outcome.
posted by alexandra at 09:55 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
It's being shown around the world, I just got a call from my mother-in-law who lives on Oxford England informing me the press conference is on.
Oxford England. Boy oh boy.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 10:00 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
At the 11:00 a.m. press conference, police chief Navarre said 114 arrests were made with 80 of them being adults. 12 officers were injured, one serious. Chief said if the march was held at a neutral site, like downtown, the rioting may not have happened.
posted by jr at 10:07 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
The fact that 'nazis' were involved is what gives this story legs.
And lo and behold, Fox Snooze reported on the same the day of the 'capture' of a 92 year old leftover of the Third Reich.
News fit for public consumption.
posted by MotorWolf at 10:15 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Jr, correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression the Nazi's (ptooi) did not have a permit to march, so they were going to walk the sidewalks instead of the street.
That would have meant the city couldn't control WHERE the Nazi (ptooi) sidewalk stroll was going to occur.
Seeing this was a publicised event, it would be understandable to have the police prepared for a week, knowing their (the Nazi's (ptooi)) right to assemble would be taken advantage of. I've been on basketball courts with more people than those who turned out for the Nazi's (ptooi) assembly and never got a ticket for not having a permit.
We watching the national news were deprived of the question & answer session which followed the lamely-organized press conference. I'd enjoy hearing the answers.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 10:17 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
I don't know about the permit situation, but I do know that the Nazi group was restricted to the sidewalk if they marched. I don't know how the city can control where a march or rally can take place. Sounds like a legal issue. How do you say to a group, "Yeah, you can come to our city, but you can only congregate here."
posted by jr at 10:42 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
In the press conference yesterday, it was said that they were not issued a permit. Permits are not needed to be on the sidewalk however.
posted by Adam at 11:00 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
The Neo Nazi's claim that they did not want any special attention or privelages. They did not want a permit. They did not want traffic to be stopped. They did not want a police escort. They just wanted 10-20 of their guys to march down the sidewalk in protest.
posted by paddington at 11:01 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
The funny thing about the communists being at the march. When the monkeys rioted, they attacked the white communists and a few got beat up. I guess the monkeys didnt care that there was a few whites on their side too...
posted by Texas88Sniper at 11:05 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
The whole communists vs. socialists angle is funny.
The Neo-Nazis are socialists.
The anti-racism protest organizers are communists.
They both hate each other.
From my point of view as a capitalist, I think both are scum. LOL.
posted by paddington at 11:19 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
I wonder if Jack Ford still feels as anti-gun as ever ? The park around which this all took place is posted "no guns", think the gangbangers care?
If they wanted to make a real difference, they'd start burying the damn gangbangers.
posted by JeepMaker at 11:31 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Do a search with Google's blog search and you'll find some interesting postings about yesterday's event.
From Cincinnati Black Blog:
"This story isn't about what the "authorities" say it is about, it is instead about good people -- Black and white -- standing up to a hate group, stopping that hate group from marching through their city, and putting the brakes on that hate groups' efforts to recruit members into their violent army of hate and terrorism."
Instant Replay:
"Nazis 1, Toledo 0. The National Socialist Movement planned a march today in Toledo allegedly to protest harassment of white citizens by black gangs. The march did not occur, but the Nazis made their point loud and clear. In a fit of utter stupidity, the very gangs whom the Nazis were using as an excuse to rile the public square took the opportunity to riot in downtown Toledo, breaking into stores and looting as the Nazis stood by and watched their victory from the safety of police protection in a city park."
"The AP Story is colorblind to the point of silliness, refusing to give the obviously vital information of what the racial makeup of the various actors - the rioters, the store owners, the police, the mayor (who is in fact black)."
"This entire episode underscores how little white America can do to address the internal problems of black society. Now, whites will once again repudiate white supremacy and we should shun and shame those who have such viewpoints. But ultimately, there's no whites at fault here. The Nazis have assumptions about blacks - and in this case, some black youths went out of their way to prove the Nazis right. This is truly a tragedy for truth, justice, and the American way."
the kvetcher:
"Nazis Win Big In Toledo. What better way to show that the Nazis are wrong in their focus on "Black Crime" than to riot? Suckers."
American Wisdom:
"Wannabe-Nazis instigate riot in Toledo. Watch how this story will get spun. The bottom line will be an outcry for more police power in the streets. This will be wrong. The outcry should be for social justice. When you create conditions of misery for large numbers of people, then resort to force to subdue those people, you are wrong. Good leadership will work to improve the conditions of their constituents. Good leadership will not try to bankrupt their own republic."
PawPaw's House:
"Let me start by saying I have no sympathy for Nazis. I feel that the Nazi movement represents reprehensible politics. Politics of exclusion, politics of racial hate. My uncles fought against the Nazis during the past century, defeating them soundly, with the help of a couple of million US servicemen. You will find no sympathy in this blog for Nazi politics."
"That said, the Nazis really didn't have to do anything to make their point. They were decrying black violence, and the blacks there turned... violent. This picture says it all."
DawgBytes:
"Were blacks Set-up in Toledo race riot? A scheduled "rally" by a group of so-called Neo-Nazis in Toledo, Ohio, caused the on-going racial tensions in Toledo to explode into a full-blown race riot. Toledo's local African-Americans were suckered in by the Neo-Nazis whose goal was to make local blacks mad enough to express their "feelings" which the "Nazis" knew would result into full-blown race riot. Making things go critical mass were hundreds of out of state gansta thugs whose only mission was to take advantage of an already out of control situation and to exacerbate it. Both the Virginia based Neo-Nazis and the black gangs from out of state achieved their respective goals."
And many more blog postings.
posted by jr at 12:00 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Before the end of the week, this whole fiasco will be twisted and bent and turned and gnawed upon by all SORTS of angles, by all KINDS of groups, on all KINDS of talk shows. Wanna know sumptin sumptin? It's still going to be a slight blemish in Toledo's history, even AFTER the cameras are turned off.
Nazi's (ptooi) this, ANTIFA that, church leaders this and politicans that, gangsters this and neighbors that, Fox News this and WUPW that. This whole thing is going to be a statistic by the time this whole thing is sorted out.
Jr, I envy your resolve dealing with this nit-picking from these Nazi(ptooi)-type groups. Like a "playa" taking a "naive church girl" to an empty park with a bottle of Boone's Farm. She may THINK she knows what's going to happen, but the "playa" has done this many many time before.
These clowns are playing this site because it's the main resource of the goings-on within the community and most media outlets troll here. Keep ignoring them, they'll find another city. All censoring them is going to do is get their panties in a bunch and blah blah blah same ol same ol.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 12:20 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
I'm sitting here ruminating the fact that I will soon be writing a check to pay my quarterly income taxes to the City of Toledo, and I'm thinking...exactly what is it for which I am paying? The great roads? The great city services? I'm certainly not getting good law enforcement.
Stop for a moment and evaluate this whole mess from the standpoint of law enforcement. Isolate your feelings about the various groups and identify those actions that were lawful from those that were unlawful. One of the basic things Toledo needs to demonstrate is the ability to enforce the law. I've watched and read various news accounts of yesterday's activities, and I am left with the image that the Ford administration and the police department were more concerned with damage control than ensuring our laws were enforced.
"I am disappointed that some folks who clearly are not strong citizens to begin with took this opportunity to make this statement," Ford said. "I was chagrined that there were obvious mothers and children in the crowd with them. Several intimated that they had guns."
I guess for the lethargic Ford, being chagined is a big deal. Please re-read his last statement before continuing with this post.
At least 65 people were arrested on charges including assault, vandalism, failure to obey police and failure to disperse.
Toledo has a law requiring ID cards for handgun owners. Ohio has a concealed-carry law. Where were the arrests for weapons violations? In the 11am press conference, Navarre acknowledged the significant assistance rendered by the county sheriffs and state troopers. Navarre also said that the gang unit had not been disbanded, but that the unit's tactics were changed to become more pro-active. He immediately went on to cite the benefits of the change, and that 12 firearms had been seized (I may be wrong about the specific number, but it was less than 20).
Golly, do you think there were more than 20 firearms illegally possessed and concealed on the persons of the 500+ group of riotous idiots? It would seem that Jack Ford knew of several. Are those people in jail?
posted by AirTrainer at 01:10 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Blade columnist Rober de Boer's report:
"Jack Ford waded into that crowd, bringing along his fire chief, safety director, a respected pastor, and a well-known community activist. He did this even though some of the neighbors he passed as he walked south on Mulberry toward Central strongly advised him against it. "Don't go down there, bro! They're mad at you! You should just get in a car and GO!" said a man who was in the middle of the street with a broom, trying to sweep up what wasn't yet finished."
"Mr. Ford took in the well-intended advice with a simple nod, and kept right on walking. He was headed toward a crowd, made up mostly of young people, that had been repeatedly tear-gassed by cops."
"[Ford] was quickly drowned out by the mob that circled around him, shouting and yelling and giving him their every opinion and passing thought. "Ford, you're black! You're supposed to be one of us!" shrieked one young woman. "Why did you allow them to be here?" one young man with a red bandanna demanded. "That's the main question, man!" "
"... the mayor was trying to interrupt a riot with a civics lesson. "As to why they were allowed to walk on the street, they had a right and we could not stop them legally," the mayor said. Shouting. Screaming. Jeering. "We got rights, too, man!" "
"So then Chief Bell tried. "I have sat here for the last couple of hours," he said, bullhorn to his mouth, "and we have tore up our own neighborhoods! Our own neighborhoods!" More shouts. More screams. "Why were they allowed to be here? That's what I want to know!" someone from the crowd asked repeatedly."
See, the disturbing part here is how so many Toledoans yesterday weren't aware of the basic rights that Americans have. Ford tried to explain it to them. The mob didn't respect those basic rights. Apparently the mob thinks it had the right to destroy property and injure people, yet the mob wouldn't allow another group of people the right to walk and talk.
It's just words. Words from a small group of outsiders that end up looking like a goofy cartoon. I don't understand why so many people take the Nazis serious. Maybe it's my sick, twisted sense of humor, but every time I see pictures and video of the Nazis in Toledo and hear or read their words, I can't help but start laughing at them. Arms flailing, that serious fashion model look on their face, their Prince Harry costumes. How do you keep from laughing? It's not as if thousands of Toledoans are going to suddenly join their club. So who cares if they're here?
I've done the math. Only 15 to 24 Nazis showed up in a city with over 300,000 people. And we're suppose to treat their prescence as some kind of serious threat?
Roberta said:
"To more than a few people who live in that neighborhood, yesterday was the day their city's police protected Nazis, but used tear gas to keep residents off their own streets."
And the reason why this happened is because some Toledoans denied a group of people their basic right of assembly and free speech. Point and laugh at the Nazis, but don't waste energy getting mad at ~20 people making fools of themselves. The scary part of yesterday is the number of Toledoans, gangs primarily, intruding on fundamental freedoms just because they couldn't take some verbal abuse. Toughen up, I say.
Roberta said:
"Among the crowd that had surged around [Mayor Ford] were a lot of young men dressed in the bright red associated with the Bloods."
Mayor Ford said:
"Gang leadership is trying to get in a lot of hits on this. The officers are going to disperse them now. I can't think of what we would have done differently. We tried to talk to them. They didn't want to listen. And once they started the fire, it's too late."
posted by jr at 01:31 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
wow jr, excellent commentary on the horrific events of yesterday.
posted by alexandra at 01:39 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Lighten things up a bit. Bob Frantz advances the notion that this is an Opal Covey prediction coming true because we didn't vote for her in the primary.
posted by jr at 02:10 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Ho hum ... let's move on, shall we? Why continue this diatribe?
posted by RolandHansen at 05:03 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
"We frankly could have made a couple hundred arrests easily," Navarre said. "We just didn't have the resources on hand to arrest all of them."
Why not??? Who else BUT YOU was responsible for making such preparations? Why did you speak so differently at today's 11am news conference?
Malfeasance doesn't look good on a resume, Chief.
posted by AirTrainer at 05:17 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
sigh!
posted by RolandHansen at 05:26 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
I would like to know who the Mayor and Chief of Police consulted in order to deal with the Nazis. Why wasn't a permit issued for the Nazis to march in an area where there could be some element of control? Why would the Mayor try and talk to the gangs? It seems to me that the Mayor doesn't understand the basic nature of gangs. The mayor should of provided security and nothing else. You cannot reason with sociopaths. You may be able to negotiate, but why? Let the Nazis march on an isolated street like the dead end portion of Dura or nowhere. Control the access points.
The gang problem can be solved only renewing the strength of the family. Make policies that encourage that. Gang members look for that kind of kinship between themselves. Lump in little to no socially redeeming values and we have the recipe for Toledo's gangs. Let's not let them turn into sophisticated criminal enterprises.
The Nazis will always be there. There are always people on the fringes of society who have trouble assimilating for whatever reasons. Keep them at arm's length so we can monitor their agenda. Let's ostracize their rhetoric. Don't respond to them here.
posted by taximan205 at 06:12 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
There are always people on the fringes of society who have trouble assimilating for whatever reasons.
----------------------------------------
Like the Nazis and the rioters.
posted by Foolkiller at 06:28 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Lighten things up a bit. Bob Frantz advances the notion that this is an Opal Covey prediction coming true because we didn't vote for her in the primary.
Just FYI: Emphasis on the first sentence of JR's post: "Lighten things up a bit." I just think the Opal prediction thing was freaky, that's all.
Then again...so's Opal.
posted by BFrantz at 08:02 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Here's a propaganda film, with highlights from the local news:
http://media.putfile.com/northtoledoriots
posted by paddington at 09:18 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
RH said, "Ho hum ... let's move on, shall we? Why continue this diatribe?"
Which diatribe? Opal's prediction about Toledo or something else? I've been looking over my shoulder since I voted against Opal in the primary.
What, you think people are going to stop talking about the Nazis and the riot after one day? Good grief, we've been talking about the damn rib-off moving for over a week now. If Toledo spends that much time on a rib-off, Saturday's embarrassment won't go away anytime soon.
One Sunday Blade story:
"The city’s image also took a beating, as news helicopters circled overhead and images of looting and burning in Toledo were broadcast across the country."
Police Chief Mike Navarre said:
"You have cars burning and stores being looted and disregard for law enforcement where they can’t do their job without taking rocks and bottles. Officers are going to the hospital because they’re getting their heads hit with a rock. I’d call that a riot."
Ramon Perez, a Lagrange Village Council member, said:
"Even Friday night, at Bronson and Stickney, that’s all we were hearing: ‘We’re taking this place down.’"
The bar that was looted and torched by the rioters, Steve Marshall, the nephew of Jim and Lou’s Bar owner Louis Ratajski said:
"Yeah, I’m angry. You lost a half-century of history in that bar for some silliness. I don’t blame the administration or the police. I blame the parents. I don’t want to hear about the schools or anything. I want to know where were the fathers and where were the mothers to let their kids run amok."
One resident offered a solution to the problem:
"The source of the problem is you have not put something in the neighborhood to help kids. Nobody’s addressing the real situation."
Chief Navarre said:
"The community’s got to heal. There’s a lot of unrest, there’s a lot of anger among young people living in that neighborhood. ... The community leaders have to step-up, the ministers, the people who live in the neighborhood. They have to meet with these young people, the ones who were out there voicing all this rage and anger and find out what this is all about. It’s got to be more than just a rally."
Ford said:
"I don’t think it’s going to have a lasting impact. No one was killed. I don’t believe anyone was seriously injured. There was a crowd-control issue. There was milling around. After talking with them, and them deciding to desist, we had the place cleared. It was done. There were some arrests made. And that’s the way it should have been handled."
Sounds like major down-playing by Ford. A crowd-control issue? Just milling around? That's an understatement. Ask the owners of damaged property if it was simply a crowd-control issue by some people milling around.
Is that Bruce Willis leading the cheers? I guess he's having trouble coping with the fact that his ex-wife married someone half her age, so he joined the Nazis-for-Dumped-Dudes support group. It looks like he's reaching out to his wife and crying, "Demi! Come back!"
posted by jr at 09:49 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
Another Blade story:
"The mob activity in North Toledo yesterday will likely intensify the political debate between Mayor Jack Ford and his challenger Carty Finkbeiner over the staffing of the city's police department. Mr. Ford by the end of the day was calling for a police force of 705, if city revenues allow."
"Mr. Finkbeiner has promised to boost the city's force, now fewer than 680, to 700 if he is elected. Mr. Finkbeiner said yesterday's turmoil proved that gang criminality is on the rise."
"[Police chief Navarre] stuck by his assertion that the Bronson neighborhood was not the hotbed of gang violence that the National Socialist Movement made it out to be."
"Mayor Ford said the police force needs more officers. He said the city's revenues had improved significantly this year and that it would be possible to hire more than the class of 15 new officer recruits he had proposed."
A year ago, it seemed like the police force would have to be cutback due to budget issues. So the city's revenues in 2005 have improved significantly, eh? Why is that?
Mayor Ford said of the "crowd-control issue" :
"They were angry that I, as a black man, would uphold the Constitution. They didn't accept that. For them, it was a turf issue."
Some offered a solution to people milling around causing crowd-control issues:
"The violence also is likely to trigger a renewed focus on community services and youth. Several speakers at an afternoon news conference called for more opportunities for jobs and more park programs."
posted by jr at 10:09 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 16, 2005 #
I notice in today's Blade that Terry Glazer is still claiming there isn't a problem in the neighborhood.
Also, did anyone else notice in the video that the group holding the ARA banner was wearing blue and white checker hankerchefs over their faces? It caught my eye because later you see one of the same people throwing stones at the police.
posted by Terrahawk1 at 06:04 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 17, 2005 #
I think this incident could be a golden opportunity for Toledo area filmmakers, if there are any, mostly because not much ever happens in Toledo.
I've been in Toledo since 1995 and this is probably the most interesting thing that's ever happened in the city.
It could also be a good opportunity for local historians, writers, etc.
posted by paddington at 11:59 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 17, 2005 #
On Bob Frantz's radio show Monday morning, Chief Navarre said there were gangs from other cities in Toledo on Saturday, including Bloods from Detroit. Those arrested on Saturday were in court on Monday, and many had Detroit addresses. I'm sure some Toledoans were involved in the rioting too, but I wonder how much of the rioting was lead by gangs from other cities?
You know a gang from another city that takes time out of their busy schedule to go to Toledo isn't going to leave without destroying something. An out-of-town gang certainly isn't going to care about Toledo property. Plus they made the national news. They probably think its cool that Bloods around the country got to see what they did.
I guess I'm holding out hope that the majority of the trouble was caused by outsiders and not Toledoans. And once the outsiders left, Toledo returned to "normal" which means a city that doesn't have the problems portrayed on TV last Saturday.
posted by jr at 07:38 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 18, 2005 #
Oct 18 Blade story:
"But they were Toledoans yesterday who stood before judges on criminal charges of tearing up the 43608 Zip Code, of taunting police officers, of fighting, of trashing property, of failing to follow police orders, and even committing felony robbery in the middle of Saturday's chaos."
"All of the 34 juveniles arrested and most - if not all - of the approximately 80 adults taken into custody listed their addresses as Toledo. Many of the adults were North Toledoans and almost all of the 34 juveniles listed North Toledo as their home address, according to a Blade review of court records and interviews with court officials."
"Some of the adult and juvenile defendants also listed homes in the 43605 Zip Code of East Toledo, and 43610, near Detroit and Central avenues."
"While exact figures were not available, a random survey of the judges revealed that most of the defendants released Saturday ignored yesterday's hearings, leading to bench warrants being issued for their arrest."
Interesting. WSPD's Tuesday morning news reports:
"Several of the 114 persons arrested during Saturday's rioting on the north side were from Detroit gangs who came to Toledo to cause trouble, and they were in court, charged with a series of offenses, including aggravated rioting and assaulting police Monday morning."
Detroit what? Did WSPD confuse Detroit, Michigan with Toledo's Detroit avenue?
Another Oct 18 Blade story:
"In the days leading up to the scheduled neo-Nazi rally in North Toledo, police gathered intelligence that gang members would be present and do something if they had the opportunity."
"While not everyone involved in the riot was a gang member, those who were gang members came from all over the city, authorities said. Various gang colors were seen on the streets. Many were juveniles and young adults interested in taking a leadership role in the gangs. Some of the instigators were gang members, the deputy chief said."
"Police received information that gangs from outside the city, including Detroit, would be in Toledo the day of the rally. They said they can't verify if gang members from other cities attended."
That's contrary to what Navarre said on the radio Monday morning.
More from the Blade story:
"[Toledo] has about 1,000 gang members and three larger gangs, police Chief Mike Navarre said. Chief Navarre said Stickney 33, a sect of the Bloods, has about 100 members in the Woodward High area. The Dexter Boyz, which has a Web site, is a gang in Detroit, but Toledo police do not know of members in the north end, he said."
posted by jr at 08:37 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 18, 2005 #
Syndicate ToledoTalk
