Link to the NBC 24 story:
"Hours before dozens of people spoke out to the Toledo Plan Commission on a plan to redevelop Westgate Village Shopping Center, a team representing Mayor Carty Finkbeiner was secretly negotiating a compromise on the project with the Chicago-based owners, Abell Credit Corp."
"NBC 24 has learned the two sides swapped ideas through phone calls across town all morning and afternoon before the plan commission was to hear public testimony."
"As the public hearing neared, a compromise was also near. Holland had agreed to provide improved bus stops, changes to signs and sidewalks, an outdoor patio if a restaurant is built, and a walking sculpture garden featuring the works of three Toledo artists. Holland tells NBC-24 the mayor is seeking a more pedestrian-friendly project with more green space. "He got a better project as a result," Holland says."
"But the mayor's chief of staff tells NBC 24 there are some hang-ups to completing that compromise. There are two drive-thrus proposed for the project: one at a planned coffee shop much like Starbuck's, and at a drug store."
Much like? I don't know. I heard last month that Costco and Starbucks have deals that when a new Costco goes up, so does a Starbucks.
More from the story:
"The Mayor has threatened to sue the developers in an effort to enforce the city's master plan, which could have torpedoed the project. Holland tells NBC 24 she believes she would have prevailed in court, but Costco could decide to bail out on the project if a case ever went to court. If that were to happen, Holland says there would be no project to build."
"Holland tells NBC 24 if the plan commission turns the plans down, she will appeal to Toledo City Council for approval."
posted by jr at 07:46 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 02, 2006 #
Strike up another one for NBC 24 news. No other local news website has the story. They must have an insider in the Carty administration because I think they were first to break the Bass Pro World tour.
posted by lloyd at 08:40 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 02, 2006 #
From personal experience I have seen them dig harder for stories than WTVG and WTOL, the "big boys" in town.
Once again, it's Kevin Milliken doing the digging. The guy kicks butt and takes names, and is very underrated in my opinion.
Case in point - the neo-Nazi rally in December. When the other outlets were in their "we will ignore the activists" mode, Milliken was chasing down the stories that others were missing in their zeal to regurgitate city and Nazi press releases. I shared some info with him, not because I had a sweet deal with 24, but because he took the time to ask, and didn't get hung up on the traditionalist media snobbery that unconventional journalists like me usually face ("Oh, THAT guy - the blogger/freelancer")
posted by historymike at 09:01 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 02, 2006 #
Kevin does kick ass!
Mike, you're not just saying that stuff because his wife is your editor are you?
posted by MemyselfandI at 09:42 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 02, 2006 #
I keep meaning to ask: is Kevin Millikin related to another Millikin that writes for the TFP (I think Mindy)? That Millikin name sounds really familiar. Is that it?
posted by lloyd at 09:56 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 02, 2006 #
Okay I'm confused. Myndi Millikin works for Fox Toledo....
posted by lloyd at 10:11 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 02, 2006 #
I was just poking a little fun a Mike. I'm sure he wasn't deliberately brown nosing. . .
Mindi Milliken works for the Free Press as an editor.
posted by MemyselfandI at 11:37 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 02, 2006 #
Ha!
No, until recently I never made the connection between the two Millikens.
My kudos to Kevin were heartfelt, and in no way an attempt to brown-nose the most excellent, highly-talented, and dogged journalist Myndi Milliken, one of the Toledo area's finest media figures.
(cue light coming down from the heavens and the voice of the Almighty)
"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow her all the days of her life, and she will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. Amen."
posted by historymike at 11:58 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 02, 2006 #
What, no one's going to say it? Fine, I will:
Carty got results.
posted by thenick at 03:17 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 03, 2006 #
Carty got results.
That statement does not specify what type of results. Therefore it manages to squeak past the truth in advertising laws. Sticking "bad" or "negative" before the word "results" would be entirely more truthful and accurate.
posted by ZeroData at 03:39 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 03, 2006 #
Sticking "bad" or "negative" before the word "results" would be entirely more truthful and accurate.
How so? He's happy because there's more green space and a sculpture garden and Abbell is happy because they get to go through with the plan they wanted. Costco is still coming, Steinmart is content, and the new Westgate will look less like a field of asphalt. By her own admission, Liz Holland said that the compromised plan is better than what would have gone in.
posted by thenick at 04:21 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 03, 2006 #
Only if the planning commission agrees to the second drive thru for Starbucks...according to Liz Holland that's a "deal breaker" for Costco. Or I guess if the pharmacy drive thru is scrapped so that Starbucks can have theirs unless that of course ends up being a "deal breaker" too.
Which I find interesting considering most of the other coffee places including Beaners which is in Westgate seems to maintain being competitive without a drive thru window.
I also wonder why Starbucks not having a drive thru would be a deal breaker for Costco, why Starbucks would have that large of a factor in Costco profits.
posted by psyche777 at 04:38 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 03, 2006 #
Much like? I don't know. I heard last month that Costco and Starbucks have deals that when a new Costco goes up, so does a Starbucks.
It could be a Seattle's Best franchise, which is owned by Starbucks, IIRC.
posted by thenick at 04:55 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 03, 2006 #
"Starbucks needs a drive-through to be competitive. It's a deal breaker," stated Liz Holland
So I'd say it appears to be a Starbucks. That's from the Blade.
posted by psyche777 at 05:01 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 03, 2006 #
I think there is a correlation between the customer bases of Starbucks and Costco. Therefore if Starbuck customers are given a drive up window, they might not be as motivated to stop in and shop at Costco.
Sounds like a small detail to me...
Is it safe to say that Carty has given up on the alternative plans that he used all of our hard earned money to pay for?
posted by lloyd at 05:25 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 03, 2006 #
Lloyd that makes no sense...given according to Liz Holland not having a drive thru for Starbucks would be a "deal breaker" it's obvious that what you stated as far as motivation to not shop at Costco isn't a reality. If a drive thru made people not shop at Costco why would that be an issue?
Given one of the Costco founders is on the Starbucks board of directors or at least was recently is probably the reason.
posted by psyche777 at 12:18 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 04, 2006 #
I was under the impression by what you said
(Only if the planning commission agrees to the second drive thru for Starbucks...according to Liz Holland that's a "deal breaker" for Costco.)
that if Starbucks gets a drive through, then Costco is a nogo. That is why I said that Costco doesn't want a drive through at Starbucks, they want people to stop in and hopefully come into their store.
posted by lloyd at 12:54 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 04, 2006 #
The Beaners in Perrysburg has a drive thru. So does the Beaners in Sylvania. If Beaners was part of the new Westgate, I would bet they would want a drive-thru too.
Last month, I heard Starbucks has exclusive rights to sell coffee in the new Westgate, so that's why Beaners won't be in the new Westgate.
Here's my prediction: Starbucks won't tolerate a Beaners in Cricket West. I still call the Cricket West Beaners by it's original name, which was Sufficient Grounds or by its nickname Pretentious Grounds. I like the Cricket West Beaners, and since Thackeray's closed, I patronize the Cricket West Beaners far more than the Westgate Beaners.
Anyway, I predict Starbucks will do whatever it takes to put the Cricket West Beaners out of business. We'll see if the Walk Westgate Urban Villagites and the UT crowd keep the Cricket West Beaners alive, or if they decide to jump ship and start buying from Starbucks. I don't know what the current capacity of Cricket West is, but if the new Westgate Starbucks doesn't kill the Cricket West Beaners, then I bet another Starbucks opens in Cricket West.
Why not? Currently, a Beaners exist in Westgate and Cricket West, so why not a Starbucks in both? The intention by Starbucks, of course, is to bury the competition. Starbucks is no different than Wal-Mart or any other cut-throat business. They just sell different products.
After the Westgate Starbucks opens, I'd say the Cricket West Beaners has a shelf-life of two to four years, which is unfortunate.
posted by jr at 01:07 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 04, 2006 #
Isn't anyone particularly (even obliquely) bothered that such a development cannot proceed just upon an understanding of Toledo zoning and appearance codes? Isn't it a refutation of good government that a business cannot obtain the knowledge required to build something without schmoozing up to an elected yuppie with nearly psychopathic desires?
I've always been bothered with secret rules, laws and the like. Why are we subjecting Abbell to this kind of thing? If anything does NOT "get results", it's having secret or vague rules that represent another set of hoops to jump through with little assurance that one will land on the other side safely.
I despise the social abuses committed by businesses. Equally so, I despise the political abuses OF businesses. Once we've publicly defined the terms of capital investment, we and our officials should stay the hell out of the way.
posted by GuestZero at 08:31 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 04, 2006 #
Isn't anyone particularly (even obliquely) bothered that such a development cannot proceed just upon an understanding of Toledo zoning and appearance codes? Isn't it a refutation of good government that a business cannot obtain the knowledge required to build something without schmoozing up to an elected yuppie with nearly psychopathic desires?
I’m bother by that. The reality is that the city has too many zoning and appearance codes. Too many codes make just about any project a violation somehow. Politicians can pretty much micromanage any development by using selective enforcement of said rules.
posted by mike2004 at 11:23 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 04, 2006 #
People wonder why Toledo's population and business community isn't growing as quickly as that of Maumee or Perrysburg or Sylvania. It's directly related to the amount of regulation, taxes, and red-tape for a business to open and operate in the city. I remember well the day I, along with my parents, came to Toledo to look for a house to buy. We quit searching because we immediately realized that property taxes here are absolutely outrageous (3-4 TIMES what the rates are in my hometown in Kentucky). Of course this isn't just government's faulty although they do bear some responsibility. Everytime we pass a new levy we're contributing to the further impairment of people wishing to move here or start a business here. Individually a new Zoo levy or TPS levy or COSI levy may not be a lot, but when you add all the levies together it creates a cumbersome situation that isn't friendly to growth and development. Regulation is the same way....Jack Ford had two moronic proposals this year (forcing companies who receive tax incentives to be forced to hire city residents first and the housing inspection ordinance) that fortunately failed. Either would have further damaged Toledo's ability to provide jobs, wealth, and ultimately a quality lifestyle.
Carty may have gotten his way this time with Westgate and Costco, but I worry about another potential future company we've not heard from yet seeing the trouble Costco had and looking elsewhere. I hope Bass Pro Shop hasn't been reading the Blade the last few days. If they have been reading them then I wonder what they think?
posted by HeyHey at 11:56 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 04, 2006 #
I had access to a sheet used by a mortgage professional just the other day. If you don't like property taxes around here, go and take a look at such a sheet. The Toledo-city taxes (about 58 mills) placed upon Toledo properties is about mid-range for Lucas County. Gad! Places like Ottawa Hills were the highest with about 77 mills. I whipped out my calculator and concluded that a Toledo home gets socked for about 1.8% yearly of its market value (35% x 58mills x 10%relief = .35x.055x.9 = .018). This means that barring changes over time, you have to pay for your home AGAIN to the city government each 56 years (100/1.8) or so, regardless if you own it outright or are buying it.
Property taxes around here are completely out of control. It reverts all homeOWNERS into homeRENTERS with respect to the state. Of course, some means must arise to pay for certain things like snowplowing, but it's the LEVEL of payments that bothers me. And that is achieved on just the standard 35% of the market value. IMAGINE what it would be like if you owed property taxes on the FULL MARKET VALUE of your home.
Toledo's terrible property taxes are just going to get worse. With people leaving Toledo at a rate of about 1000/yr -- about 1% each 3 years -- the government is going to feel the squeeze and then demand larger levies. With industry also leaving, more people won't be able to buy homes, hence will rent, hence further will not mind so much voting FOR various levies, after all (-- it's crazy, but there it is) it's "not my money I'm voting to spend".
Disclaimer: I don't own a home, nor am I buying one.
posted by GuestZero at 08:55 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 04, 2006 #
I noticed this posting from three years ago about the new glass museum being built in the Old West End. Here's the Feb 7, 2003 Blade story the posting referenced.
"The Old West Association and three residents who live in the historic neighborhood have asked Lucas County Common Pleas Court to halt construction of the Toledo Museum of Art's Center for Glass."
"Plans for the $25 million center were approved Jan. 9 by the Toledo Plan Commission. The association and [the residents] who live near the museum, are appealing the plan commission's decision. The Old West End Historic District Commission had refused to grant a certificate of appropriateness for the center."
I think Bob Frantz said last week that this new glass museum violates Toledo's 20/20 plan, yet the plan commission approved the project anyway.
Today, a public group opposes the $35 million Westgate redevelopment project proposed by Abbell because the project violates Toledo's 20/20 plan. But instead of voting for Holland's plan, the plan commission took the cowardly approach last Thursday by not making a decision, allegedly due to too much information being available. No, the plan commission is afraid of Carty. The plan commission is hoping like hell that Holland and Carty can reach an agreement, which would let the plan commission off the hook.
$25 million glass museum violates 20/20 plan, but the commission approves it.
$35 million Abbell Westgate project violates 20/20 plan, and the commission crapped their pants.
If it's true that the glass museum violated Toledo's 20/20 plan, why was the development approved? Should the project be halted/demolished for the good of the city? Where's Carty stand on the glass museum?
posted by jr at 12:28 A.M. EST on Mon Feb 06, 2006 #
I predict that when called to task, Carty will support it. Anything to do with the museum represents the Toledo "old money" crowd, which Carty's elitism will never cross.
posted by GuestZero at 06:18 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
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