Creepy! billy and I posted this at the exact same time.
this should finally put to rest the rumors that we are the same - despite our seemingly contradictory beliefs.
Seriously props to you, apparently you posted first based on the location of the threads on the page - unless its in alphabetical order.
Jr please obliterate my thread.
posted by rusty at 11:11 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
The link to the WTOL story. WTOL's servers should get a little bump in traffic today, since the link is posted at the Drudge Report.
posted by jr at 11:52 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
This and the charity that just got indicted. Looks like someone has been focusing investigations on our area. Good for them.
Brace yourself for criticism of the administration and the US. Let me predict: there is no evidence against these men, it is racism, it is a witch hunt, McCarthyism, etc. For the charity it will be all about describing specific legitimate (non-terrorist) recipients of the funds (maybe we can get a picture of a child) and how they are now starving or not getting education because of our president.
Sorry - I don't mean to be pessimistic. I hope I'm wrong.
posted by babbleman at 12:19 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
At least Toledo had some good news with the WSPD announcement that GM chose Toledo for the new transmission plant.
What a disturbing story. Unfortunately, the city of Toledo is making the news for all the wrong reasons.
One wonders about the timing of the two terror-related announcements. Was this coincidental or planned?
If both cases are legitimate, then I hope justice is done, but it strikes me as odd that we would have both investigations hit the wire services within 18 hours or so.
posted by historymike at 01:12 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Good job by WTOL. They also have a link to the indictment on their website.
I'll be updating my blog throughout the day as I find out information. This is a big national story, and bits and pieces are beginning to worm their way out. I have an email from someone who claims to know more.
posted by historymike at 01:24 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Press conference started at 1:40 and is being aired on WSPD. The Toledo Terrorist Task Force was aknowledged.
posted by jr at 01:45 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Gonzales is doing a press briefing right now in Washington.
posted by babbleman at 01:46 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
When asked about the evidence, Gonzalez said, "We feel very, very strong about this case."
When asked about any ties to the Kind Hearts charity, Gonzalez said the two were separate investigations. Coordinated investigations.
Info came to the Toledo terrorist task force from the community. An informant or someone working with the terrorists went to the FBI. ???
Gonzalez was asked why the terrorists were directing attacks in Iraq and not in the U.S. Gonzalez said he couldn't talk about facts not mentioned in the indictment.
posted by jr at 01:54 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez just finished to reporters. He indicated that, if convicted of all charges, the men could receive up to life in prison.
Gonzalez refused to speak beyond the indictment itself, but seemed to hint that the terror investigation might be linked to yesterday's Treasury Department announcement of an investigation into the charitable organization KindHearts. He called the two investigations "separate but corrdinated investigations."
Gonzalez said that he believes the government "has a strong case," and said that the men "had the motivation and the means" to carry out the aleged terror activities.
posted by historymike at 01:54 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Tie goes to jr!
posted by historymike at 01:55 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
historymike, do you have the details about how the Toledo FBI or terrorist task force got tipped off about the group?
posted by jr at 01:57 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Nope, not yet. I have someone who emailed me claiming to know something, but he hasn't responded to my return email yet.
posted by historymike at 01:59 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
The alleged "front" for the activity was Jerry's Auto Sales, at 1921 N. Reynolds Road in Toledo.
posted by historymike at 02:04 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
The fourth person in the group is known as "The Trainer." He was the informant. I was curious to know if he worked for the FBI, or we he just someone who decided to go against the firm?
With the terrorist breakup and GM selecting Toledo, "Carty Gets Results."
posted by jr at 02:05 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
I may have misunderstood, but I thought they were saying that the tip came from a "respected member of the Muslim community".
posted by babbleman at 02:13 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
HM, get a hold of Fox News and tell them to call you.
They just had some reporter from the Plain Dealer on. Wtf? That's the closest they can get? He kept saying he didn't know that much right now and that "Toledo is about 2 hours west of us here in Cleveland".
posted by babbleman at 02:15 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Jerry's Auto Sales is not listed in the brand new phonebook that came the other day, but calling information gives you the number. Should call and ask if they have any President's Day specials.
posted by jr at 02:23 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Jerry's Auto Sales
1921 North Reynolds Road
Toledo, OH 43615
(419) 531-1922
posted by babbleman at 02:32 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
HM, get a hold of Fox News and tell them to call you.
They just had some reporter from the Plain Dealer on. Wtf? That's the closest they can get? He kept saying he didn't know that much right now and that "Toledo is about 2 hours west of us here in Cleveland".
posted by babbleman at 02:15 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006
1) Proves the F-word network doesn't know its ass from a hole in the ground.
2) If that's the normal quality of research and reporting from the F-word network, then maybe you need to reconsider your primary news source there, dude.
3) I would guess HM wouldn't want to sully his reputation with the likes of the F-word network.
4) There wouldn't be terrorists in Toledo trying to organize acts against US troops in Iraq if the USA wouldn't have been stupid enough to invade Iraq in the first place. Think about it.
posted by anonymouscoward at 02:34 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
or maybe...
Jerrys Auto Sales
515 S Meilke Rd
Holland, OH 43528
(419) 866-1532
posted by babbleman at 02:34 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
The world's first photos of Toledo Terrorist Central, plus my short travelogue on chasing Midwestern terrorists.
posted by historymike at 02:47 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Still can't get the Blade web page to open - they must be having server overload.
Her JR Block: Aren't you guys supposed to be technology experts (Buckeye Cable and Buckeye Express)? You need to invest in some faster servers for busy days like this, buddy.
My slow-ass Blogger site loads faster than the Blade.
posted by historymike at 03:10 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
I have not been able to load the Blade site since yesterday. Maybe they were secretly SOLD or were shut down by the Terrorist Task Force.
posted by KraZyKat at 03:24 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Her JR Block: Aren't you guys supposed to be technology experts (Buckeye Cable and Buckeye Express)? You need to invest in some faster servers for busy days like this, buddy.
I note their computer help wanted section wanted an IP network engineer, TSRs for Buckeye Express, and as of Monday, a Computer Operator I (doesn't state it's them but it's pretty damn obvious if you know the signs).
posted by anonymouscoward at 03:33 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
There IS a photo of children, page 4, main section the Blade today, with Kindhearts (Is there a connection between Kindhearts and this terrorist thing?) Tugging your heartstrings. I was told yesterday by a friend, who's husband has attended a lot of FBI/Homeland Security/terrorist training seminars for his job, that it is not a matter of "if" the USA gets hit by a terrorist attack, but "when". Our local police/fire dept.s have already got special suits, had vaccinations (not sure what for). Can't reveal my source (not that it's a surprise), because her husband would be mad she blabbed.
posted by starling02 at 03:40 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Just out - two of the accused men are or were students at UT.
UT President Dan Johnson said that "as we categorically reject terrorism individually and as a society, we must be careful not to be similarly indiscriminate in our projection of blame."
Still trying to track down my mystery emailer who tipped me off on this and claims to know one of the men.
posted by historymike at 03:56 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
FOX-Toledo at 4:00 interviewed an employee at the used car lot who expressed surprise at the indictment.
He did add that Wassim Mazloum planned to close down the business and take a "vacation" since business was slow.
They also interviewed a woman in Pont Place who said she always was suspicious of suspect Marwan Othman El-Hindi and the people who frequented his house. She said the place was plastered with "No Trespassing" signs.
posted by historymike at 04:20 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Well, after having our community here in Florida overrun by the World Media Conglomerate after it was found out several of the 9/11 terrorist pilots trained and lived amongst us in Vero Beach, I must warn you, these reporters are a rude lot.
If you even passed one of these suspects in traffic, expect a microphone and a camera in your face the next time you answer the door.
I wonder what the budget will be next year for the Toledo Homeland Security Department?
posted by BrianInFlorida at 04:32 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
The Blade front page now loads, but the Toledo Terror story they posted at 3:59 won't load.
Poor Blade - missing out on a lot of traffic...
posted by historymike at 04:32 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Now it loaded...
They mostly repeated the same stuff from the indictments, but they did find an uncle of Mazloum who said the charges are "100 percent false."
The Blade also noted that Mazloum is a mechanical engineering student at UT.
posted by historymike at 04:36 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
1) Proves the F-word network doesn't know its ass from a hole in the ground.
It might prove that the local affiliate may not know it's ass from a hole in the ground.
Using your logic, one could say that you are indeed a coward, in that you use the word in your handle.
2) If that's the normal quality of research and reporting from the F-word network, then maybe you need to reconsider your primary news source there, dude.
If you don't like being called a coward then perhaps you should reconsider your handle, dude.
3) I would guess HM wouldn't want to sully his reputation with the likes of the F-word network.
Hey HM, why not answer this one. There seems to be a lot of guessing going on.
4) There wouldn't be terrorists in Toledo trying to organize acts against US troops in Iraq if the USA wouldn't have been stupid enough to invade Iraq in the first place. Think about it.
You may be right A/C, instead they might be planning to fly more planes into more buildings. Judging by the geographic location, it might be Downtown Toledo instead of Downtown NYC.
Absolutely stunning. Here we have a story of where DHS and local law enforcement actually get something right, and all A/C can do is turn it into a Left vs Right slimefest.
One would think you'd be a little more grateful there A/C.
What am I thinking, of course you wouldn't.
posted by WhiteAfricanAmerican at 04:45 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Does anyone know who was first to break the story?
posted by lloyd at 05:10 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
I think WTOL got it out first, Lloyd, but all 4 stations were pretty quick.
As far as the FOX debate: I think the local affiliate does a great job for a station with a small staff.
FOX National: I always take with a grain of salt, but they are fine on breaking stories. They have too many shouting matches for my taste; O'Reilly, Hannity-Colmes, and even their Saturday morning financial Forbes show are usually just contests in who can out-scream whom.
When they are just reporting the news they are fine. Bill Hemmer is solid, although the morning Fox and Friends is sometimes annoying (I did like Tiki Barber sitting in for Steve Doocy today).
posted by historymike at 05:40 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Did Kevin Millikin sleep in today? lol
Busy news day, with the port sales to UAE. That was big on Limbaugh and O'reilly radio, I don't know about Hannity.
Also news today on the stadium. I am getting tired of talking about that though.
posted by lloyd at 05:50 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Yeah, I caught part of Hannity on 760 at 4:30. He was railing against the Dubai/UAE port deal, which is surprising since he often parrots the GOP line.
I had to switch because Brian Wilson was talikng about the RGP (snooze) bass and walleye fishing (snooze) and a little bit about Dubai and Powertrain (less snooze).
He did talk terrorists for a few minutes right at 3:00, but for some reason he seemed to want to stick with the script.
I think it would have been great for him to just let people talk about the terror plot, since that is a big national story involving our town.
When a big story comes along, it's best to just let it run until we get sick of it.
posted by historymike at 06:12 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
And no one has mentioned that the reason's the arrests happened was the local muslim community tipping off the FBI.
posted by psyche777 at 06:14 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
I am sooo over Brian Wilson, haha.
I wanted to give him a fair shot, but now I think he is a boring, self adoring, dork. Plus he doesn't like bloggers.
It sounds like Georgie is alone on the UAE deal. Frist and Hastert are suspicious of the plan.
posted by lloyd at 06:22 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Psyche777, all I've seen said is that the community tipped off the FBI. I take that to mean someone in Toledo. It may well be their fellow muslims, but otherwise, it's not known.
Shouldn't we be screening people a lot closer before we let them in the country?
posted by Terrahawk1 at 06:29 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
It's been reported that it was the local muslim community that tipped off the FBI.
posted by psyche777 at 06:32 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
I certainly hope we can keep the identities of the local Muslim infomates private, for sake of their security.
Also not mentioned much is the plan to assasinate President Bush when he was in Toledo several days before the election.
That is scary...
posted by lloyd at 06:41 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
The Detroit-Toledo-Cleveland corridor has a high concentration of Muslims, perhaps the highest in the U.S.
posted by paddington at 06:48 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
psyche777 said:
"And no one has mentioned that the reason's the arrests happened was the local muslim community tipping off the FBI."
babbleman posted at 2:13 p.m.:
"I may have misunderstood, but I thought they were saying that the tip came from a "respected member of the Muslim community". "
I'm guessing "they" is some news org or Gonzalez's press conference? But what about "The Trainer" tipping off the FBI?
posted by jr at 06:54 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
The impression I got was that The Trainer came to the FBI and offered to help. Gonzalez's press conference, as reported, just mentioned the community.
posted by Terrahawk1 at 07:01 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
11 stated clearly it was the muslim community, as did Chief Bell and the represenative from the muslim community who was on.
posted by psyche777 at 07:03 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Thanks jr I missed that somehow, so thank you babbleman for confirming what I also heard.
posted by psyche777 at 07:04 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
I've been one of the many voices asking why the peaceful Muslim communities haven't been speaking out against terrorists.
Looks like I was wrong. They *are* speaking out, just to the FBI not the media.
Many thanks to the Toledo Muslim community.
-Dan
posted by photodan at 07:07 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Just watched the 11 newscast link, the Federal official in Cleveland did say they got numerous tips from the muslim community.
posted by Terrahawk1 at 07:14 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
They've been speaking out against terrorism too, but for some reason that doesn't get the same amount of media coverage as the miniority that violates not only their religion but the law.
Last year:
"Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians' life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram - or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not 'martyrs'. . .In the light of the teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah we clearly and strongly state: 1. All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam. 2. It is haram for a Muslim to cooperate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence. 3. It is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians. We issue this fatwa following the guidance of our scripture, the Qur'an, and the teachings of our Prophet Muhammad - peace be upon him."
Last week:
Today all across the world, many followers of Prophet Muhammad [peace be upon him] are insulting the Prophet (peace be upon him) by their knee-jerk response to the provocative Danish cartoons about the Prophet [peace be upon him]. They are attacking embassies, burning newspapers, threatening journalists, issuing bomb threats, and promoting suicide bombing. Still, they claim that they are defending the Prophet [peace be upon him]. These measures do not comply with the values of an ideal community whose Prophet is described in the divine scriptures as a Mercy to Humankind. Moreover, Muslims by their angry outburst made even the initially disinterested people to search for the caricature. Unfortunately, Muslims made the existence of the offensive cartoons widely known as they did to the boring Satanic Verses of Salman Rashdie.
At this moment of extreme sadness, I ask Muslims to join me to read the Qur’an for guidance, consolation, and self-control, instead of adding fuel to the fire.
From toledomuslims.com
Anyway, supposedly they are innocent until proven guilty.
posted by psyche777 at 07:15 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
We all need to remember that these folks, along with Tom Noe, and Bob McCloskey are innocent until proven guilty.
posted by lloyd at 07:19 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Frantz spent 30 minutes on the terrorist indictments, so WSPD gets a nod now.
He also did a good job of balancing the worry about terrorists with a healthy dose of "let's keep cool heads and not bash Muslims."
One caller was whining about how "Muslims never speak out against the violence," and Frantz did a polite smackdown on the guy. He noted that local Muslim groups have taken out full page ads condemning the violence, and how one local Muslim leader has a son in the US military.
In Iraq. Fighting in the war.
posted by historymike at 07:21 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism.
I'm not going to get into the debate here, but that isn't exactly true. There are some mainline Islamic interpretations that are well supported by the Koran and Hadiths and support the actions of the terrorists. That's not to say that all muslims are terrorists. But, it does say that the jihadis do have legitimate historic Islamic support for their views.
posted by Terrahawk1 at 07:23 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
I turned it off after the caller did the Frank "SoLousy" dig and tried to relate this somehow to Frank and Pete Gerkin not supporting the Patriot Act.
posted by psyche777 at 07:23 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Yes, terrahawk, we've had that discussion before and we disagree on that one. That is what those who live here as well as elsewhere in the world have stated as how they interpret the Quran.
Historic violence can be found in most religions and is not a basis for present beliefs by a good majority of muslims.
posted by psyche777 at 07:27 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Was any aspect of the Patriot Act used to help capture these guys, or was it normal pre-9/11 FBI procedures?
If the Patriot Act helped, then yeah, it looks damn bad on Toledo City Council, psyche777.
Another worthless action by Toledo City Council - December 3, 2003 at Toledo Talk. From the Blade article referenced in the posting:
"Toledo City Council members who wrote an anti-Patriot Act resolution introduced a stripped-down version yesterday aimed at answering Mayor Jack Ford’s objections. Co-sponsors Peter Gerken and Frank Szollosi, both Democrats, said they hope for a vote at council’s next meeting Tuesday. The resolution criticizes the 2001 anti-terrorism law as a threat to civil liberties, especially of Arab, Muslim, and southeast Asian immigrants."
I doubt the Patriot Act played a part in today's news, but if it did, then the local media needs to jam a microphone, a camera, and a tape recorder into the faces of Gerken and Szollosi and ask them about their 2003 anti-Patriot act resolution.
posted by jr at 07:55 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
I don't know about the Patriot act, but Gonzales had some other guy (not sure who, probably from the FBI) fielding questions with him.
They were asked if domestic surveillance played a role in this investigation. The other guy answered and it was basically no. He said something to the effect that this was the result of conventional law enforcement work.
posted by babbleman at 08:28 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Gozales had with him FBI Deputy Director John Pistole; the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Ohio, Greg White; and the Assistant Attorney General Alice Fisher of the Criminal Division.
Pistole did most of the yakking that got on TV that wasn't done by Gonzales.
posted by historymike at 08:34 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
He also said there were many sources.
posted by lloyd at 08:37 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
all I get is an error message when I try to go to toledomuslims.com . I was googling muslim beliefs a lot today, and many showed 'error messages, this page shut down'. I wonder if the feds are going to sieze my computer now that I did searches. Just kidding. If the feds want to search somebody I say go for it I don't think they're interested in my aunt trudies cookie recipe or the fight I had with my sister.Better to err on the side of caution I think. My mom said that during WW2, they used to open and search her letters from cute soldiers as well.
posted by starling02 at 09:17 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Akron Beacon Journal has a good article with some event details.
TOLEDO, Ohio - Mohammad Zaki Amawi denounced the U.S.-led war in Iraq not long after it started.
"He said we shouldn't be over there. He was angry about it," said Lori Unugester, who managed an apartment complex where Amawi lived.
Mazloum's 14-year-old sister, Dima, said FBI agents came and knocked on the door around 7:30 a.m. Sunday. They handcuffed her brother when he answered the door, she said.
The agents did not explain why they were arresting him, she said. They searched the house for an hour, taking about $1,700 and two small pieces of paper from Wassim Mazloum's wallet, she said. They also seized a paintball gun.
Read the rest here.
posted by chrismyers at 09:18 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
May I ask this question: Why do some of us always expect the Muslim community to bend over backwards condemning extremism within their religion when the same is NOT asked of Christians at the onset of similar acts of terrorism? Examples include the Oklahoma City bombings and the Ku Klux Klan.
Thank you.
posted by MrsPhoenix at 09:18 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
It's a good question, Mrs. Phoenix.
I think a better example might be abortion clinic bombings, which are ostensibly done by people more directly claiming religion for their justification.
McVeigh was a Christian (at least in name), but he acted out of more political motives.
The KKK act out of racist motives, trying to rationalize their acts with a dose of warped Christianity, but they usually appeal to a pseudo-scientific social Darwinism for their acts.
posted by historymike at 09:29 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
You know what, I want to add my own observation. I frequently drive past Ram Auto Sales, being I live in the area, and the thing I noticed was that their cars were very cheap. I watch used car prices and their prices were really good and I always wondered how they could sell cars for that amount. Normally small dealers like that would have above fair market prices, but their prices were below fair prices. What does this mean? I don't know, but I always wondered about that dealership.
posted by chrismyers at 09:32 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
In that instance, I don't ever remember Timothy McVeigh claiming he did it in the name of Jesus Christ. The radical muslim terrorists *are* doing it in the name of their religion. (however corrupted that idea truly is)
-Dan
posted by photodan at 09:35 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Thanks for the link, Chris.
The Akron Beacon Journal kicked some a** in getting these quotes so fast. The did use AP stringers, but it's amazing that they got the family stories out so fast.
Unlike... well, fill in the blank yourself.
posted by historymike at 09:37 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
From a a certain Toledo daily paper:
Thanks for your patience
Toledoblade.com had been experiencing problems with our host server this morning. Thank you for your patience.
No kidding. Don't they mean "....experiencing problems with our host server all f***ing day, and we cost ourselves 500 thousand hits with this hot story..."?
posted by historymike at 09:43 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
How did Akron get family quotes out before our Blade did???????????? Good point Mrs.P. There's been more killings/murders, in the name of religion in general. Since 9/11 though, I imagine peaceful Muslims are just trying to establish that the bad Muslims do not speak for all. Why more so for Muslims than Christians, I don't know.
posted by starling02 at 09:45 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
MrsP and HM,
I think the reason is the amount of suicide bombings, plus you do have some so-called religious leaders in the mideast saying it is OK. Also, the KKK has been ostracized enough that where ever they go and what ever they do they are kept on the long end of a 10 foot pole. While you have a point, it is not an apple-to-apple comparison.
The fact is that criminals are criminals no matter who they are, what they believe in, and where they are. Anyone that justifies killing because they feel slighted is just so wrong.
posted by chrismyers at 09:45 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Yes, ABJ blew all of the other news outlets out of the water. Kudos to them. Out of all of the news articles on Google News, the ABJ was the most unique and best, even better than the local newspaper.
posted by chrismyers at 09:50 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Toledo Blade's servers can't handle large sytem loads and I think it is the CMS system they use. It is not like this is a surprise to them, it has happened before. If they want to be a local online news leader, they need to fix this.
posted by chrismyers at 10:00 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
When a religion is highjacked by violent extremists, the rest of its followers need to lead the charge in putting an end to it - regardless of what religion it is.
I think that the amount of calls for Muslims to speak out as opposed to Christians reflects the vast difference in the scale and scope of terrorism in the name of the two religions.
In very recent history, violence from Christian extremists doesn't even come close to that of Muslim extremists. I mean, not even in the same ball park.
When did Christian extremists have training camps all over the world? How many countries have been targeted as state sponsors of extreme Christian terrorism? The State Department identifies almost 30 organizations as Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs), most of which are Muslim extremists. How many extreme Christian FTOs can you name?
Its like cancer vs. the common cold. Naturally the talk about cancer is a lot more and a lot more serious.
posted by babbleman at 10:04 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
For the record...Milliken was not asleep-- rumor has it he was was in Cleveland chasing down the story behind the investigation.
At six, he did a cool piece on how the Muslim community and The Trainer were the two key pieces that allowed the NW Ohio and federal terrorism task forces to "take down" what he calls the "Toledo Terror Cell".
Milliken also did an in-depth piece on Monday about KindHearts and the international implications it has between Muslim and government relations.
Wonder if the stories will hit the NBC-24 website?
posted by sparky at 10:12 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
But according to what we've been told thus far, the Toledo "terror cell" was not planning attacks for Toledo or for any other American city. We've been told that the Toledo "terror cell" was only involved with planning attacks that were to take place in Iraq, right?
I guess I think of terror cells planning attacks in the city that the cell exists. It seems damn strange that terrorists would plan attacks for Iraq from Toledo, Ohio. How much planning do you need for a roadside bomb?
posted by jr at 10:22 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Some Google splunking found the following:
1. Jay Kashen, the president of RAM Auto Sales, said the sidewalks at 4216 Monroe weren't cleared because a "snow machine" broke down.
Toledo Blade
2. Marriage License 5/05: Marwan El-Hindi, 42, and Marwa Aboud, 29, both of Toledo
Toledo Blade - here
posted by chrismyers at 10:29 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
I don't know, jr. There are so many unexplained factors, and I think that's why people gravitate to this story.
posted by historymike at 10:30 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Transcript of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales's press conference Tuesday. Some excerpts:
"The Justice Department is charging Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi, and Wassim Mazloum with conspiracy to commit terrorist acts against persons or individuals overseas and with providing material support to terrorists. Their efforts to engage in this type of violent jihad or holy war occurred in Toledo, Ohio over the last year. Amawi is also charged with two counts of making verbal threats against the President."
"As alleged in the indictment, these defendants have been living in the United States where they have been engaging in weapons training and seeking to provide help in order to kill people abroad, including our troops."
"Further, as alleged, all three defendants discussed training, making or manufacturing or using Improvised Explosive Devices or IEDs. Amawi engaged in an instructional session on the construction and use of IEDs and timing devices. Amawi stated that his aim was to target U.S. military assets. As we know, one of the greatest dangers to our men and women fighting overseas in Iraq is the IED."
QUESTION: General, was the information that led to the arrests gained by the warrantless surveillance program?
ATTORNEY GENERAL GONZALES: I somehow anticipated that question might be coming. We feel very, very strong about -- about this case. Otherwise, obviously, we would not have brought forth the indictment. And as I have said in previous discussions about the terrorist surveillance program, we are very, very much concerned about ensuring that we've done everything we can do to not jeopardize any prosecution, to not jeopardize any investigation, and I'll just leave it at that.
So, again, we feel very, very good about this case and being able to move forward to a successful prosecution.
QUESTION: Can you tell me whether these arrests have any ties to Kindhearts, the organization in Toledo that's being investigated by the Treasury Department for ties to Hamas?
ATTORNEY GENERAL GONZALES: What I can say is that they are separate investigations. They also happen to be coordinated investigations. And so there's nothing in the indictment with respect to Kindhearts, and so that's all that I can say about the relationship. Again, they're separate investigations, but they're coordinated.
QUESTION: Attorney General, as a follow-up to the question on the use of court-authorized wiretaps or non-court-authorized wiretaps, did this investigation start domestically? You had alluded to enemies hiding in our midst. That seems to suggest that it was somebody who has --
ATTORNEY GENERAL GONZALES: Do you want to answer?
MR. WHITE: My name is Greg White. I'm the U.S. Attorney in the Northern District of Ohio, and I would say that information came to the Bureau and to the Joint Terrorism Task Force in Toledo from the community prior to this investigation being started.
QUESTION: Would that be the trainer listed in the indictment?
MR. WHITE: The trainer would be one source of that information, but not the only source.
QUESTION: Doesn't that suggest that you had all the tools that you needed under the existing criminal laws to investigate this and bring it to indictment stage?
MR. WHITE: I think the Attorney General addressed that issue, but the allegations in this indictment are based upon traditional law enforcement kinds of efforts.
QUESTION: Do you have any sense for why these people would be directing jihad in Iraq and not conducting a domestic attack?
ATTORNEY GENERAL GONZALES: Again, that would be again speculating on facts that are not included in the indictment. I'm sorry.
posted by jr at 10:50 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Some more public information:
SOS Filings here
posted by chrismyers at 10:58 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Time Magazine has a story online now; here's the important bits on "The Trainer":
A retired U.S. Special Forces soldier helped the FBI to uncover an alleged nascent terror cell in Toledo, Ohio, according to Assistant U.S. Attorney in Cleveland Thomas Getz. Three men, two U.S. citizens originally from Jordan and one U.S. resident from Lebanon, had asked the former U.S. commando for help in coordinating "jihad training exercises," according the indictment. But what the suspects didn't know, was that the retired soldier was working with investigators all along.
Identified in court papers only as "the Trainer," he earned the trust of the three men because, says Getz, "he was from the Muslim community." Getz would not say if "the Trainer" is of Arab descent or a long-time Muslim but said that he had cooperated voluntarily with the government from the beginning of the investigation going back at least to November 2004 and he was "acting on behalf of the (U.S.) government" the entire time
posted by historymike at 11:10 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
RAM Auto Sales map here
City Auto Sales map
here
Interestingly enough. There is a lack of information on the City Auto Sales.
I noticed the SOS filing link did not work.
See the filing papers here and here
posted by chrismyers at 11:12 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Chris Meyers, hello, I thought the front was Jerry's Auto Sales on Reynolds, although I saw City Auto in a news story, and you mentioning Ram Auto.
Is Jerry's considered a front? I thought Jerry's was owned by the guy who owns Supreme Limo... maybe it was sold? Maybe it's a different auto sales co.
posted by gotoledogo at 11:23 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
All I know is the City Auto Sales and the Ram Auto Sales. They say this one is the front and it seems like it, just from the lack of information on it. There is a Jerry's Auto Sales right by Airport and Reynolds, but I don't think it is this one.
posted by chrismyers at 11:26 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
NBC 24 said Mohammad Amawi told his family he was moving to Jordan. They were all surprised he was found in Cleveland.
Also on 24, they showed clips of an interview with Marcy Kaptur. Marcy Kaptur has no class. She was talking about warrantless wire taping and said this was probably the way they got this information. It sounded like she took this investigation and is politicizing it. She could have congratulated the law authorities for thier hard work, but no-classless. Only AC was the only one trying to make this story political, I guess AC is in good company.
posted by chrismyers at 11:49 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
That is exactly why I always vote against Marcy Kaptur. First, I should note that I am a democrat, but when you politicize issues that shouldn't be politicized, you lose all my respect. Although I believe in democratic values generally, Marcy would always rather defer to the democratic party than represent the constituents that vote her in. Terrorism is very serious issue, one that I thought everybody agreed on, but Marcy disappoints me, again.
To this issue, we should be proud as Toledoans that certain Toledoans helped the war on terror at home. This should be a wake-up call for the rest of the nation. If they're here, they're everywhere, and they might have bigger plans. Although I believe in innocent until proven guilty, one does not mess around with terrorism. Jail these guys until they have their day in court. That car dealership is a mere two blocks away from where I live, and frankly, it's a stain on the beauty that could be Toledo. While many of us here hope for the future of Toledo, this is a good step. The story shouldn't be three toledans arrested for a terrorist plot, the story should be toledans helped to arrest of three terrorists.
posted by junta330 at 12:25 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
Only AC was the only one trying to make this story political, I guess AC is in good company.
Excuse me, bucko, but you need to back that ass up. This story was political the moment it was announced. Why else was it national coverage and a press conference by the AG himself? "Oh look we have kept America safe from terrorism!"
If it wasn't political there wouldn't be all the hoopla about it.
Mind you, hey, look, DubyaCo took a hit on the Katrina finger pointing in the news lately, and now Dubya's big plan to sell our ports to the United Arab Emirates (one of three nations that recognize the Taliban as being the official government of Afghanistan) has even got his own party screaming at him... so excuse me for questioning the coincidence of timing here but I'm a skeptic.
All I said was that these guys wouldn't be plotting to kill our guys in Iraq if we hadn't invaded Iraq in the first place. Iraq was a result of this administration's politics. Assign the blame to the politicians who made the bad political decisions in the first place, not the guy who points out the bloody obvious.
As a result of all this, Toledo's now known for Nazi demonstrations, anti-Nazi riots, and as a city where terrorists live and operate. Y'all politicized the Nazi/riot stuff pretty well, so you aren't going to be allowed to be stupid and play the "but but but it's terrorism, you shouldn't polticize it" BS.
Should you want to complain to the politicians responsible for the mess, the White House switchboard is (202) 456-1414, the Senate (202) 224-3121, and the House (202) 225-3121. I'm sure you can dig up local and state numbers.
Have a nice day.
posted by anonymouscoward at 05:19 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
Brace yourself for criticism of the administration and the US. Let me predict: there is no evidence against these men, it is racism, it is a witch hunt, McCarthyism, etc. For the charity it will be all about describing specific legitimate (non-terrorist) recipients of the funds (maybe we can get a picture of a child) and how they are now starving or not getting education because of our president.
chrismyers, that's the first political comment... posted by babbleman at 12:19 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006.
And we have jr making a sarcastic poltiical comment: With the terrorist breakup and GM selecting Toledo, "Carty Gets Results."
babbleman's comment is directly political in nature because it's a pre-emptive attack against anyone who would dare have the gonads to question anything about this event. It's a direct pre-emptive attack against anyone who has a view different than that of babbleman.
Frankly, Mr. Myers and babbleman need some lessons in hypocrisy, irony, and recursion/self-referencing.
posted by anonymouscoward at 05:30 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
I guess I think of terror cells planning attacks in the city that the cell exists. It seems damn strange that terrorists would plan attacks for Iraq from Toledo, Ohio. How much planning do you need for a roadside bomb?
Actually logistical and operational planning from somewhere other than Iraq makes a whole lot of sense, particularly with the internet and the sheer speed of communications.
Think about it, what are the chances of the US military based in Iraq, being able to raid and arrest these guys, when they're 10 000 miles away. Hell, I bet the US was the last place anyone would have thought to look for enemy logistical coordinators.
Assuming these guys are guilty, thank God for the "Trainer", otherwise these guys might never have been stopped.
If the Trainer is indeed a Muslim, and his motives are just, this is a huge thumbs up for the Muslim Community, and a massive step toward the PR they so desperately want and need.
posted by WhiteAfricanAmerican at 05:57 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
AC, I am just making an observation. Out of all of the interviews and news papers I read/saw last night, it was only Marcy Kaptur that sounded like a political wind-up doll. There was so much she could have talked about, but no. I actually had to do a double take to make sure the interview was about the events yesterday, because they only sounded like a diatribe against warrentless surveillance on terrorists. Your comments speak for themselves, so no need to comment on them.
posted by chrismyers at 08:21 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
And given Kaptur's response, it looks like my prediction was accurate.
posted by babbleman at 10:30 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
chrismyers, babbleman, you have until the day before the primary to turn in the nominating petition to run for Marcy Kaptur's seat as an Independent. By all means, if you can do a better job, then go for it, else think about putting up and shutting up.
For the record, I don't like her either, but if the Dems get a majority in the House, she'll be getting the prime spots on the prime committees due to seniority, so she might actually send some USEFUL pork back our way. Maybe.
posted by anonymouscoward at 11:39 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
I heard a Kaptur quote on the radio, and the quote started with Kaptur saying first and foremost these people are innocent until proven guilty. And that's obviously a true statement by Kaptur. Innocent until proven guilty. Just like Tom Noe.
I wonder if Kaptur has ever gone out of her way to make sure the public knew that Noe is innocent until proven guilty? In Kaptur's mind, which is worse, the Toledo Terrorists or Tom Noe? Kaptur believes that if the coin scandal had broken before the 2004 presidential election, then Kerry would have won Ohio and the presidency. And I assume that would have meant the U.S. would have pulled out of Iraq last year, and the used-car-selling Toledo terrorists would have stuck to selling cars and not creating bombs. And that would have meant no arrests even though the investigation started in 2004. I think I follow Kaptur's logic if that's what she's secretly thinking.
Next week will be the three-year anniversay of Marcy Kaptur's terrorist-freedom fighters quote.
From the March 1, 2003 Blade, Marcy said:
"One could say that Osama bin Laden and these non-nation-state fighters with religious purpose are very similar to those kind of atypical revolutionaries that helped to cast off the British crown."
"I think that one thing that people of faith understand about the world of Islam is that the kind of insurgency we see occurring in many of these countries is an act of hope that life will be better using Islam as the only reed that they have to lean on."
"I think that people of faith understand that for many of the terrorists, their actions are acts of sacred piety to the point of losing their lives. And I think that people of faith understand that there is a heavy religious overtone to the opposition."
I wonder if the revolutionaries sold used horses or ran a charity as cover to their real intentions?
Then what about Kaptur's December 2003 comments to WSPD after the capture of Saddam? Kaptur said the Middle East was better with Saddam Hussein in command of Iraq. Marcy claimed Saddam killed terrorists. Terrorists? I thought they were non-nation-state fighters, fighting for a cause like our revolutionaries.
Marcy said in December 2003:
"I think Saddam's capture is, in some ways, irrelevant."
Irrelevant? No way. Without Saddam's capture, we wouldn't have Saddam's humorous court procedings. I loved that one day when Saddam told the judge he was done for the day because he had to get a smoke, get some exercise, and get a change of clothes. Funny. Good stuff.
Anyway, I wonder if Kaptur thinks the capture of the Toledo terrorists is irrelevant too?
posted by jr at 02:53 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
AC, did you get those numbers off the back of your ACLU card? I know they list all three.
posted by junta330 at 03:25 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
Junta said: Although I believe in innocent until proven guilty, one does not mess around with terrorism.
What on Earth do you mean about that? What has happened in Toledo with the 3 accused men (and the accused charity KindHearts as well) is all entirely appropriate ... since it is DUE PROCESS. The jailing and setting/denial of bail is also part of due process.
The funny thing about all this is that due process and effective law enforcement have always been available for use, well before the USA PATRIOT Act was a glimmer in the eyes of America's imperialists. However, undercover work by the FBI against Middle Eastern operators in America has long been shown to us by whistleblowers as farcical at best. As Agent Joe Average in the Bureau, you'd find yourself facing various obstacles when investigating, say, notorious Saudis in America, rather than notorious racists or radical militiamen. The failure to face American-operating terrorists (including the thousands of foreigners educated in America's leading terrorist training camp, the School of the Americas) was itself a failure of political will. We decided as a nation to look askance BUT AWAY from Middle Easterners in America.
Given what happened to Jose Padilla (who has been unConstitutionally kept in custody for about 4 years), it's a great thing that these 3 men are receiving due process. Hell, if that kind of thing keeps up, America might return to valuing the rule of law, not the rule of fear (and other such lowest-common-denominator rules).
posted by GuestZero at 03:51 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
I meant that the judge should deny bail. That is all, nothing more, nothing less.
posted by junta330 at 04:02 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
AC, I always enjoy self-described liberals telling someone to shut up. Sort of proves the point that liberals, such as yourself, like freedom of speech when you say what you want, but you must muzzle anyone else.
I was just making an observation that her comments were way off base and I believe I can do such a thing, just as you can make your comments against Fox news and everything else. I am quite content with two of the Republican candidates opposing Ms. Kaptur that I do not need to run again.
By the way, what is not reported in Toledo is that Marcy has been ostracized in Washington. She tried again to make a leadership grab and her fellow Dems demoted her on several major committees to the lowest ranking spot. She has less power now than ever before. I think she is doing enough to make herself useless that the Rs don not even need to hold anything back.
BTW, I wish there was less pork so I could keep more of my money.
I would like to apologize to everyone on this thread for bringing Marcy into it, because it was a good thread up until this point. I just could not stand her attitude yesterday and now it has switched to a judgment on Marcy.
posted by chrismyers at 07:10 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
Some new information found in Today's Blade. You can read the article here
Detainee served as imam at prison
Wasn't this part of the plan in America, try to recruit in prisions? While everyone is innocent until proven guilty, there are many signs that look bad for this trio.
posted by chrismyers at 07:23 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 23, 2006 #
Some more odd information from the Blade:
Mr. El-Hindi married his third wife, Marwa Aboud, in May. After his business closed in Syracuse, N.Y., he moved to Michigan and later Toledo, where he was self-employed and made $1,200 a month.
He faces unrelated traffic charges for driving without a license and ignoring a stop sign. He was convicted of a misdemeanor in 2003 for not taking care of his then residence on 423 White St. in East Toledo.
Oregon police arrested Mr. El-Hindi in 2001 for receiving stolen boxes of Tylenol, Motrin, a pain reliever, and Monistat 3, a cream that treats yeast infections, worth a combined $196.
Joan Elaine Palacio, whose 2002 murder remains unsolved, shoplifted the over-the-counter medicine from a Krogers grocery store in Oregon and dumped the items in the backseat of Mr. El-Hindi's white sedan.
When questioned by police, Ms. Palacio said Mr. El-Hindi was not her accomplice. No charges were filed against Mr. El-Hind
and
Filings with the Illinois Secretary of State show that a "Marwan El Hindi" registered a company in Chicago called Royal International in 1997. His residence is listed as a white-brick house in suburban Oak Lawn, Ill.
During the 10 months of planning, the indictment states Mr. El-Hindi indicated that he wanted to teach two Chicagoans how to use suicide-bomb vests.
Really strange.
posted by chrismyers at 07:33 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 23, 2006 #
AC, I always enjoy self-described liberals
Whoa, "self-described"? Have a talk with the people who keep calling me a liberal, okay?
posted by anonymouscoward at 07:37 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 23, 2006 #
I just learned that there are at least two other terrorist cells in Toledo that they know about, so far. It is not only Toledo..they are the ones that they decided to bust. It could be that it was their cells turn to do something. There are cells in Oregon...and Dearborn and Dundee and Sylvania. Hindi had been arrested on prior, more petty (non-terrorist) offenses, but wiped clean, so to speak (four years ago), because the feds knew they'd get him on bigger things (they did). (Looking for the big fish, big crime, to put them away in a serious way).So apparently, the FBI, et al, has been watching, investigating hindi and this cell for at least four years. I was also told that there's probably at least 1,000 of these cells in this country so far. There seem to be (in my internet research) different 'sects' of muslim belief, and while most do not condone violence, the more extreme sects do take scripure literally, often out of context perhaps. And while I do understand that these extremists fo not speak for most Muslims, I agree with terrehawk, I too have found enough quotes from their teachings, that suggest that their religion does condone some of this. One from the Free Republic. Will post it as soon as I find it again.
posted by starling02 at 10:43 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 23, 2006 #
From The Free Republic: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/563517/posts
The Koran ^ | 11/04/01
Posted on 11/04/2001 5:55:56 AM PST by gg188
A Few Quotes from the Koran: What the Muslims Believe Whether Arab or American
There are statements concerning the attitude of Muslims toward those that disagree with them. In the Koran, the believer is the Muslim, the unbelievers are Jews and Christians.
Since the terrorist attack on the WTC, Arab they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
NOTE: (1) Jews and Christians are unjust people. (2) Muslims are not to be friends to Jews or Christians.
[2.191] "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers."
NOTE: (1) Kill the unbelivers wherever you find them....even in the Sacred Mosque if necessary.
[4.89] "They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."
NOTE: Again, Muslims are not to befriend Christians as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these we have given you a clear authority."
[9.30] "And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
posted by starling02 at 10:52 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 23, 2006 #
And I found this, don't recall where. I do not mean to imply by posting this stuff that I am paranoid of all Muslims, I am not. If fact, I tend to assume most Muslims are peace loving (Cat Stevens converted to Islam, so it can't be all bad?) I guess my fear is, it's just so damned hard to know who believes what, really, because the neighbors, friends, family, co-workers of these local terrorists they arrested, all said they were 'good people'.
*******************************************
What are the major types of Muslims?
The vast majority of Muslims are Sunni. They revere the Rashidan, the four immediate successors of the Prophet Muhammad.
The largest minority group is the Shii, or Shiites, who believed that the Prophet Muhammad's closest male relative, Ali ibn Abi Talib, should have ruled instead of the Rashidan. Shiites rule in Iran.
During the Crusades, a sect developed called Hashshashin. They got their name from the belief that their leaders used hashish and other methods to persuade young men to carry out murders and suicide missions. The sect continues today under a different name. Extremist suicide bombers of contemporary times clearly use the model of the original Hashshashin.
What is the Muslim view of violence?
"There are extremists, who, in the name of Islam, believe in violence to carry out their goals. The vast majority of Sunnis and Shiites do not believe in violence," Welch said. "There are well-established teachings that Islam is not to be spread by violence. Holy wars have not been used as a way of spreading religion but as a way of protecting territory."
What is the religious background of Osama bin Laden, the ousted Saudi Arabian terrorist suspected of being involved in Tuesday's attacks on the United States?
Bin Laden is characterized by experts as an extremist, not a member of one of the main Islamic groups. His background is Sunni rather than Shiite, but, as Welch said, "His history is so long and complex that he doesn't fit into any of those established molds."
posted by starling02 at 10:57 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 23, 2006 #
Syndicate ToledoTalk
