Prediction: COSI with vacate current location, waterside bar/resturant will go in.
posted by Offshore at 08:49 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
Their board of directors needs to pay attention to their shakeups in management in the past year. COSI is being mismanaged and nobody seems to pay attention to that. They lost a few of their best employees that, on the surface, appeared to be due to "budget woes", in reality it was about getting rid of competition within ranks.
posted by gotoledogo at 09:46 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
Financial woes at COSI should not be a surprise to anyone who is familiar with the Chair of COSI's Board of Director's F. Michael Walsh. Within the last two weeks he was at the White House to receive an award for COSI from President Bush. (He was a major contibutor to both Taft and Bush.)
Meanwhile back in Toledo, he was preparing to shut down a local business that he started with a $1 million dollars in combined State of Ohio/City of Toledo grants, loans and tax abatements two years ago. He did manage to save some money by stiffing his employees out of their last pay checks. Any bets on whether the City or State ever see any of that loan money?
posted by Zoltan at 10:59 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
why is the Cosi in Columbus so much more successful than Toledo's?
posted by starling02 at 11:34 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
A long time ago, when I was a Girl Scout Leader, we tried to plan an overnighter at the Columbus Cosi. Couldnt pull it off because not enough parents could pay the admission fee on time. But that was a big deal with scouts, to spend the night in Cosi. I don't know if that idea is even considered by our local scout troops, it'd be much less expensive to do it here in Toledo than Columbus (transportation, etc.). I don't think Toledo's Cosi promotes itself much.
posted by starling02 at 11:37 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
Starling, you have a great idea there - they already do this at the 5/3 field..
the reason they dont promote themselves better might have to do with gotoledogo's comment...
posted by billy at 12:12 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
Scouts have stayed overnight at COSI in the past. We've been out of scouts for a few yrs, so not sure if they still do. COSI needs to change or add things. It's the same all the time and kids get bored.
posted by aperson at 12:13 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
Last time I was at COSI....
- The overhead walkway smelled really bad and was very dirty
-The elevator to the ground level was out-of-order and had to use stairs. Kids were dissapointed.
- Price of addmission was ridiculously high for our experience.
-A large portion of the exhibits had signs on them stating "Out-of-Order" or "Under Construction"
-Most of the exhibits offered nothing new from our previous visit
-The concessions were over priced and not very good
-The kids were bored after about 2 hours and wanted to go home and play video games.
Is it any wonder COSI is failing.
posted by KraZyKat at 12:41 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
kraZykat I had the same experience when I went to COSI for a nephew's birthday party. Dirty, dirty, dirty. I fell out of one of the exhibits because the ramp was broken. Never again!
posted by bogeylola at 03:32 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060131/NEWS16/601310420&SearchID=73237056941042
Yet...WASHINGTON - First Lady Laura Bush yesterday presented COSI Toledo with the nation's top museum award at a White House ceremony, saying it has "demonstrated extraordinary service" to the city and serves as a model to the rest of the country.
posted by psyche777 at 03:50 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
First Lady Laura Bush yesterday presented COSI Toledo with the nation's top museum award at a White House ceremony
I wonder if the First Lady ever visited COSI. Probably relying on information provided to her by GW's intelligence gathering team
posted by KraZyKat at 04:13 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
To be honest, I have only been to Cosi a couple of times, long ago (when the kids were young). It was cool, but I have heard that they don't bring new things to it often enough. I hear the Cosi in Columbus is larger. If Cosi in Toledo wants locals to come, they will have to offer new things/themes to do, obviously more than they do now.
posted by starling02 at 05:49 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
Well, Columbus didn't win the award so bigger at least in that case doesn't equal better. My kids have all been involved in different science projects there at one time or another. None of them have complained about not enough "new" things, they seem to enjoy what is there.
I don't think moving it to the zoo would be financially feasible. If they are having trouble raising enough funds to keep it going now at their present facility I don't know how they would be able to build a new facility.
posted by psyche777 at 06:09 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
I don't think moving it to the zoo would be financially feasible.
Correct Lisa. I heard our local morning host on WSPD come up with that idea this morning. I choked on my coffee laughing at it. Where just exactley does Fred think COSI would be located at the Zoo? In the Museum of Science?
I guess the Zoo (errr....COSI) could build a new museum on land the Zoo owns on the River Side of Broadway, but the cost of aquistion and the cost of construction would not be finacially feasible.
If Fred was thinking that the Zoo could incorporate COSI into their institution, why would they want to do that? Why deminish the reputation of a long held locally established institution like the ZOO by bringing in a quasi franchised institution like the COSI?
I equate that to attaching a MacDonalds Drive-thru window to the side of Tony Packos.
posted by KraZyKat at 06:54 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
I always thought COSI was a bad idea. You see it once..................how often would you return?
What the city should have done with Portside is keep it as the Marketplace it was, with one big difference. Since the city was GIVEN portside, they could afford to cut back on the rent, making it easier for the business's there to be profitable.
posted by JeepMaker at 08:58 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
COSI has been a valuable and unique institution for many years. They provide unlimited services to families and area schools. Sometimes we have to think about the greater good of an institution's impact instead of the "what did they do for me lately" attitude that seems to surface when an organziation admits they need help.
True that COSI may not cater to all genres however they provide a valuable service to our city. If you are wondering about new programs, services, events, and exhibits COSI has, visit their website at cositoledo.org
It might surprise you to find that they always have something in the works, whether it's for families or schools there's always something new going on.
posted by toledoresident at 10:00 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
I agree with Toledoresident, even my highschoolers enjoyed COSI, they went there to do several math and science projects.
Nor have any of mine ever complained about something not being "new" and they go several times a year between school and as a family.
But then again, we also enjoy going to the art museum. Especially on a dreary weather Sunday...(when there are no football games of course, I do have priorities -lol)
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 10:08 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 28, 2006 #
I wouldn't mind myself having the opportunity of a downtown wharf atmosphere to go to. You know, walk around, buy a coney dog, watch the babes, enjoy some summer sun and breezes, rent a canoe or paddleboat, etc.
But, ohhh nooo, we have things like SNORSI and the Erie Streetperson Market, which just give me the heebie-jeebies. I was taken about 1yr ago for lunch at some place along some sort of hidden palisade walk by One Seagate (and leading along toward the "Edison Building"). I was struck then that THAT place was where Toledo's First Night celebrations were (note: PAST TENSE) located. It's essentially deserted now. What a joke.
The downtown living developments are equally funny. I noticed that each of them have LOTS of parking ... for their cars ... which they roll out each day to probably drive to places like Franklin Park. Some return on investment for downtown, eh? The bastards are probably just flipping their condos for more money, anyway.
Toledo's social problems are almost completely due to a failure of will. Downtown is essentially a graveyard. OR ... a madhouse: Just in standing on the corner of Madison and Huron on Monday for a mere 10 minutes, I noted SEVERAL crazy persons doing incomprehensible antics in the street. What rational man wants to encounter those things in public?
posted by GuestZero at 05:00 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 01, 2006 #
toledoresident said: "COSI has been a valuable and unique institution for many years."
Only to the entrenched twits who are collecting paychecks from it. COSI has nearly ZERO relevance to the general public. Your average McDonald's restaurant has more public relevance. It is NOT a viable private entity. I'm voting NO (with pleasure!) on the SHAMEFUL levy for it, and I'm urging everyone I speak to on political topics to DO THE SAME.
Wake the HELL up, toledoresident. COSI is a poster-child for the stereotypical coddled Toledo institution that has no other support than that obtained from a few elite and politicians. It's no surprise that said elite and pols are now trying to put it on overt public welfare.
Vote NO on CORPORATE WELFARE! Vote NO on the COSI levy!
posted by GuestZero at 05:09 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 01, 2006 #
GZ, I'm about as far from elite as you can get. I am a parent though, and my oldest daughter is in UT in mechanical engineering. Where did she develop this love for math and science? In part thru places like COSI and thru some very awesome teachers that used everything including places like COSI to encourage a love of science and math.
While I would prefer that a levy not be an option and that an alternative manner of additional funding was the answer I disagree with you. Just because you don't support something doesn't mean that it has no value. Have you ever gone to COSI and seen the interest it creates in some of these children?
That is very relevant to the general public, or at least should be.
posted by psyche777 at 10:26 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 01, 2006 #
psyche777, how wonderful that your daughter loved science so much, and that can be attributed in part to COSI. Unfortunately, it is so poorly run that it truly does not deserve another dime until they clean house. Did you know that they just fired every person on their education team? The board of directors are clueless, as many boards of directors are. They just hired someone in their finance office that was fired a few years ago for fireable offenses.
They are mismanaged. And unless and until they clean house, they don't deserve a dime from anyone. Which is incredibly sad to me considering I have enjoyed taking my kids to COSI, too.
posted by gotoledogo at 10:52 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 01, 2006 #
Six full-time and two part-time COSI Toledo employees were laid off yesterday to trim the downtown science center’s budget in the face of an expected revenue shortfall.
Doesn't say anything about being fired and it states these jobs would be restored once the funding issue is resolved.
As to the mismanagement issue? Of course if that is part of this it should be dealt with before funding is discussed. I'd also point out again I think that taxpayer's being asked to support this via a levy should be a last option, and I'm not sure at this point that stage has been met.
posted by psyche777 at 12:01 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 01, 2006 #
I am not speaking from any article when I tell you that, instead from an insider's take on the situation. The head of education at COSI was let go a while ago, and now the rest of that dept. was, too. Fired, layed off, let go,however you slice it, how do you help these kids learn when they are cutting the wrong areas?? The finance area just HIRED someone, things must not be too bad, if you're in the right department...
The op. mgr. is underqualified & COSI is imploding as we speak.
posted by gotoledogo at 12:41 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 01, 2006 #
my oldest daughter is in UT in mechanical engineering.
*raises eyebrow*
Is she cute and single?
:)
Geek girls. *sigh*
posted by anonymouscoward at 12:51 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 01, 2006 #
She's very cute, all of my daughters are and she's single but in a serious relationship. But AC I'll let you know should she become available. (lol)
gotoledo, I'm not in a position to know anymore than what is public. So not that I doubt you, I hope you also understand I'm going from what I can get confirmation on. We don't disagree on the issue that if there are management issues those should be dealt with before a levy is pushed through.
I heard just a short bit of WSPD last night and it also sounds like what is charged for admission is alot less than what it costs per visit. If I heard correctly it was stated it costs $13.00 per visitor. However I'd also agree that cutting all of the educational staff is not a smart place to make cuts if the goal is to get more people in and to get them to support a levy. Not withstanding my previous comments about a levy should be only if all other sources have been looked at first.
posted by psyche777 at 02:24 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 01, 2006 #
Another Goverment run entity. Schools,TARTA,Amtrack,Cosi, a zillion more. When will the people realize that our goverment just can not operate or manage any business in the black. The reason for us tax payers!
posted by TIME at 06:22 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 01, 2006 #
Another Goverment run entity. Schools,TARTA,Amtrack,Cosi, a zillion more. When will the people realize that our goverment just can not operate or manage any business in the black.
Conrail actually did very well for a government-run entity, and despite those EVIL LABOR UNIONS and all that. Go read the Wikipedia entry for it.
Honestly, a few of these things would be profitible if the politicking was kept to a minimum. If they gave Amtrak the funds needed to actually IMPROVE service and keep the rolling stock in good repair, they'd do better business. If the idiot congressassclowns actually let Amtrak figure out which trains are profitable and when to run them, they'd be better off. Unfortunately, the Amtrak appropriations are all based on whose state gets what service, and the private carriers on whose tracks it runs are more than happy to lobby against it.
Of course, this is the USA, and while we could have regional high-speed trains in interconnecting networks, it won't happen because of NIMBYism and other factors.
Of course, leaving this stuff in the hands of private industry isn't so good either... they'll lobby and beg for a tax break, and what happens is you get someone like DTE Energy getting a billion dollar tax break for pissing on their coal piles before burning it.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/27/synfuel.tm/
It's just like, and I'll put on my tinfoil conspiracy theory hat here, that I bet we could cure AIDS and cancer and God knows how many other diseases, but private industry won't do it (why sell a vaccine or a cure once when you can sell treatments and therapies continuously forever?) and government research won't do it because the private industry will gladly spend 10% of their profits on preventing the loss of 90% of their profits, at the expense of hundreds of thousands of lives.
If you could keep the government-run business nonpolitical and not demand the head of the guy in charge of running it the minute it failed to turn a profit, you'd probably see stats that look similar to that of how private businesses are doing.
posted by anonymouscoward at 08:10 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 01, 2006 #
I honestly believe COSI has done wonders for the Downtown Toledo area. I wouldn't say the area was "booming" before COSI but now it's really made a difference. There are people I'm sure will not agree with me, but I have been going to COSI ever since it opened in 1997. I never get tired of going there - yes, there are some areas of COSI that need revamping, however if you actually delve into the science concepts throughout the building, you might actually learn something. I have been taking my kids there for the past few years and they never tire of it - they ALWAYS have a good time - and so do I! I love learning right along with my kids!!!
Those of you that have been there before and find it dull and boring - have you ever really made an attempt at learning anything there? If you have, you'd see there is ALWAYS something new to learn - not to mention the staff is always willing to help. What I find irritating is when I'm having a good time there and I look over and there are parents 1) not interacting at all with their children and 2) thinking it's "boring" if the science doesn't just jump right out and hit them in the face. When people are so ignorant that they don't even want to learn anything, that's when people turn against COSI.
I am in the educational field and I have to say that the programs that COSI uses to educate everyone (who wants to listen and learn) are very well done.
Now I will admit that it does seem that the management isnt running as well as it should, however, as long as my kids and I are happy and learning and having a good time, I will continue to support COSI.
It may need help, but that's just it..... IT NEEDS HELP. I pay taxes just like everybody else - I believe the education of our young people is extremely important and COSI should stay. If it means 50 cents or a dollar a month, so what?? I believe our young people need to be educated in the science field and I am going to support COSI in their effort to do that.
That's my opinion. Ya'll are entitled to yours, but I know how I'm going to vote- in support of my kids' knowledge and future.
posted by justmakinconversation at 12:05 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
I am in the educational field and I have to say that the programs that COSI uses to educate everyone (who wants to listen and learn) are very well done.
Now I will admit that it does seem that the management isnt running as well as it should, however, as long as my kids and I are happy and learning and having a good time, I will continue to support COSI
...oops, they just got rid of, or layed off, or whatever you want to call it- all of their education staff. I wonder how long that will take us, as patrons, to notice. I think that if the zoo got rid of their zookeepers we'd notice pretty quickly. Time will tell...
posted by gotoledogo at 01:54 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
dear go....
I have never worked there, but even I can figure out that ALL of the education staff was not layed off. If you were really on the "inside" you might want to (not only get your information correct, but) rephrase your comment.... if they layed off ALL of their education staff, that would mean they layed off EVERYONE who works there. That is CLEARLY not the case. How about they DO have more programs than just those you see everyday. Have you heard about their Distance Learning program? Their Camp-In program? Those areas weren't touched by the lay-offs. OBVIOUSLY, they didn't lay off ALL of the education staff because *gasp* - those programs still TEACH people in the community!!!! What a concept.
So before you start making broad statements, please do your homework. Thank you.
posted by justmakinconversation at 08:48 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
oh, and PS, GO..... did you know that the zoo HAS gotten rid of zookeepers within the past year? Have you noticed that "pretty quickly?" Didn't think so. If you did your research, you may have figured that one out.
Everyone is having a rough time with money so why doesn't this community pull together to help them instead of bitching and complaining about it? It's not like this town is rich, but everyone needs their priorities - I know a big one for me is the education of the people who are one day going to be taking care of us!!! (aka - my kids along with the rest of the children in the community..... in case you didnt get that)
posted by justmakinconversation at 08:54 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
Do we want to hash the specific financial numbers of COSI here? Do we want to talk about cuts being made to save money? Do we want to talk about how COSI has existed for nearly 10 years without public support?
For those that want to bring up the idea of creating an entertainment district or shopping center in downtown, let me remind you of Portside and the Erie St market. Portside died fast, and the Erie St market, though open, certainly isn't the healthiest of business endeavors either. If there is one thing this city needs less of it is shopping centers.
So, if COSI closes its just another couple of jobs gone from the city. If COSI closes we lose a year round educational institue. If COSI closes we lose tourism money and tax money. So, the community loses, the employees lose, and the city loses. No big deal eh? Tsk tsk tsk
posted by apophistoledo at 11:45 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
It might sound strange, but I believe COSI would be helped a lot by a new Bass Pro Outdoor World in the Marina District that would open in 2007 if they started construction this year.
"Forty-nine percent of [Bass Pro] customers come from beyond 50 miles. Almost 30 percent trave from 150 miles or more."
Does Toledo COSI have any stats like this that show how far people are traveling to visit it?
Some of the people visiting a Marina District Bass Pro would stay overnight like they do at Cabela's in Dundee. And right now, the downtown hotels are on the west side of the Maumee, not far from COSI. If it's a family spending time in Toledo, checking out other attrations in addtion to Bass Pro, COSI would be a good option, especially for family members not interested in an outdoor store.
Near the Cabela's in Dundee, a 53,000 square-foot indoor waterpark is suppose to open this year, and this gives those visiting family members without an interest in Cabela's something else to do. Alternative options have to be built in Dundee, while they already exist in Toledo: COSI, art museum, zoo, Hens, Storm, UT sports/arts, etc.
In my opinion, getting GM to expand Powertrain was priority one for the city. Second would be a Marina District Bass Pro that is open morning to night, 364 days a year.
COSI and other venues would benefit from a major destination attraction in the Marina District that's not just bringing in people from the burbs but is attracting people from areas out to or near Cleveland and Columbus. If something big like this would open in the Marina District, COSI's current location is ideal. Toledo COSI needs to hold on for another year or two to see what happens in the Marina District.
And a new arena that's open only 120 to 150 days a year and for only a few hours for many events wouldn't come close to helping the city like a Bass Pro in the Marina District would. No Cabela's exist in Ohio. The only Ohio Bass Pro is in Cincinnati. Cleveland and Columbus have their own new arenas, but many outdoors people from those two cities would travel to a Toledo Bass Pro. And while they are here, they could also bop up to the Dundee Cabela's.
The Dundee Cabela's is the number one tourist attraction in the state of Michigan, attracting around six million visitors per year. And while they are in Dundee, some or many spend money at other businesses. Some Bass Pro stores are brining in four million visitors a year.
If COSI closed this year, and something big opened in the Marina District in a year or two, we'll be hearing complaints from visitors that there isn't enough to do in Toledo for kids in visiting families. "You guys should open up something like a COSI like we have in Columbus."
The extra traffic COSI would realize from a major Marina District destination attraction would allow COSI to rehire people recently let go, and it would allow COSI to properly maintain and upgrade its exhibits, which benefits local and visiting kids.
We're always too quick to pull the plug on something. Allegedly, things are "about to pop" in Toledo. So let's be a little more patient here. Support COSI for another year or two. If COSI is still struggling in 2008, and Toledo has not done anything with the Marina District, then to hell with it all. Just about any downtown business on the east and west side of the river that's dependent upon walk-in traffic and is struggling a bit right now would benefit from a Marina District Bass Pro.
posted by jr at 11:51 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
jr,
You got a good point there.
Is a small investment by the populace worth the larger gains that can be realized for the city as a whole?
posted by apophistoledo at 12:06 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
JMC stated:
did you know that the zoo HAS gotten rid of zookeepers within the past year?
As one who knows the ZOO very well I challenged justmakingconversation to back up the claim that the Zoo has layed off Zookeepers in the past year. I cannot recall a single Zookeeper who has lost their job through layoff. While 1 or 2 may have voluntarily left, it was on their own accord.
A few "Temp" keepers or "Interns" may have left as well, but as their positions imply, they were never permanent employees to begin with.
As for the firing last year of the vet, he was not considered a "keeper" and cannot be included in the mix. Niether can the firing of other department personal such as Maintenace, Visitor Services or Administration.
So before you start making broad statements, please do your homework
So please provide your evidence that what you stated is factual and not just rantings
posted by KraZyKat at 12:49 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
KrazyKat - I do have inside information about the zoo letting keepers go - and NOT voluntarily. I do not want to divulge the specifics of how I know and what I know, but trust me - I have many connections with employees and board members at the zoo. I was not including Dr. Tim in my previous statement, for your information.
Going to COSI for the past 9 years and living in the Toledo area my entire life is evidence enough that I am not ranting. I am not the type of person to rant about a specific issue unless I have evidence to back it up (I get enough drama from my kids!). It is private information and if you don't believe me, fine, however I know I am correct. I also have many connections at COSI as well - I am not divulging anymore information, but I've been there so often, I know everyone on staff - and I am not exaggerating that I know everyone, either. Not to mention that it's clear that if COSI fired ALL their education staff, there would be NOBODY working there. Plain and simple. Anyone can see that.
JR - I do agree with you - however, one day in particular, I was visiting COSI and I ran into 3 different families - one from Wisconsin, one from Hawaii (my kids actually played with their kids most of the time) and one from Florida - so I do know how far away they come JUST to see COSI.
posted by justmakinconversation at 02:19 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
Apop - you are right on the money. Nicely said.
posted by justmakinconversation at 02:20 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
I'm a bit skeptical at the idea that a family from Hawaii came all the way to Toledo JUST to see COSI.
What about detailed stats with percentages and distance traveled in miles or kilometers? (I assume a center of science and industry would be using the highly superior metric system.)
posted by jr at 02:28 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
That's what they told me - I'm sure they had family here and that's why they came here in the first place (I'm not stupid), but they were just raving about the place - it was rather refreshing to hear.
As for the detailed stats/percentages/distance - yeah that's something you'd probably have to call them and find out.
A superior metric system? I believe they follow the crazy "miles" format we use in this country as opposed to the "meters" that the rest of the world uses. It's rather amusing actually!
posted by justmakinconversation at 02:34 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
JMC....
I to am very well connected at the Zoo. Without devulging too much about myself, I can say that I am a former employee of the Zoo where I worked for 10 years. I continued to stay in very close contact with all of the keepers and can identify most all of them by name.
I am not aware of any full-time keepers who have been "let go" through layoff within the past year. If I am mistaking, I will gladly admit to my bad. But, I would be curious to know of the keepers you speak of. If you want to email it to me in private that would be OK.
posted by KraZyKat at 03:18 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
psyche777 said: "While I would prefer that a levy not be an option and that an alternative manner of additional funding was the answer I disagree with you. Just because you don't support something doesn't mean that it has no value. Have you ever gone to COSI and seen the interest it creates in some of these children?"
Not to be flip, but if that's actually the case, then there's demand enough that COSI should charge appropriate entry fees to covers its own costs. Period. If it has value then said value can be demonstrated from a market effect.
I speak from my anecdotal evidence. I see COSI having no effect upon people's lives, hence I can only conclude that it touches few people. The only places COSI appears to my view is in media exposure.
But all this is a smokesceen to the real issue. The real issue is that such an entity is PRIVATE and we cannot tolerate something like a levy. Just because something has value to a few, doesn't mean that everyone must pay for it, especially in the instance where it's a service with highly restricted (and redundant!) use to the population.
A levy is just corporate welfare. Levies are one of Toledo's greatest weaknesses, since they historically represent the entitlement mentality around here. If COSI can't function without a levy, then COSI deserves to die, and its assets will be bought up at pennies on the dollar by someone who can make better use of them.
OR, you should stop pretending COSI is private and make it public. But since its an "educational institution", it therefore belongs under the TPS system. So hand it to Sanders to run.
justmakinconversation said: "It may need help, but that's just it..... IT NEEDS HELP. I pay taxes just like everybody else - I believe the education of our young people is extremely important and COSI should stay. If it means 50 cents or a dollar a month, so what?? I believe our young people need to be educated in the science field and I am going to support COSI in their effort to do that."
What the hell do you mean, "so what"? So it's MY TAXES you're allocating for something very few people benefit from. COSI is a private entity, and not an actual public educational institution.
Really, you're far gone on this issue. Either make COSI a public entity (and NO, that doesn't mean just give it money; it must become subject to the TPS system), or keep it private (and let the market establish its viability).
The Toledoan Entitlement Mentality is obviously going too far on the COSI issue. The proposed levy alone shows how extreme it is. People automatically think it's OK to allocate public funds for some private project. Even if the project has public benefit, it's still private.
As another $50 is stolen from each homeowner, more people will say "screw it" and move. The tax base will continue to shrink. And that's just a stupid move, all around.
justmakinconversation said: "That's my opinion. Ya'll are entitled to yours, but I know how I'm going to vote- in support of my kids' knowledge and future."
No, it's not just opinion, since you're bypassing opinion when you steal my money by making an absurd claim upon property taxes. Where's my rightful protection from such theft? Public funds cannot be used to provide for private entities which are just businesses. When that's done, all it really is, is theft, no matter if its dressed up as a simple majority "YES" vote. It's "not yours to give".
If you want to support COSI, then write them a check. This levy is highly immoral and no man should vote to use the funds of other people for his personal benefit. Our young people already have a school system, which everyone pays for. This levy is redundant and has no moral basis. This is why I called it SHAMEFUL.
posted by GuestZero at 04:12 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
I don't know about you but I just can not afford another levey. Another gas hike, another electric hike, another school levey because they don't have enough money to run these new expensive schools being built that will have no effect on our kids grades, another school levey for teachers raises, higher taxes to support the new shower in the mayors office so he can keep fit while on our clock, more police who don't respond to most of the calls now. When will we stand uup and say enough is enough???!!!
posted by TIME at 06:44 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
Jeepmaker you are absolutly right on. Or let casinos in and stand back and watch the river front come alive.
posted by TIME at 06:46 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
Right now, COSI is only considering a levy. They may only be testing the waters to see what the public's reaction is.
"... that's something you'd probably have to call them and find out."
I don't think so. I'm not that interested in the stat. I'm curious, but I'm not wasting my time calling them. I don't think the stat has any merit in terms of deciding whether or not to vote for a COSI levy if one comes up.
But if COSI puts up a levy, then COSI better be carting out a ton of stats that show why this area needs to support a COSI levy. The public shouldn't have to call them for stats.
For example, take the zoo. I don't want to get into a zoo-levy discussion yet. That's not the point of posting this next bit of info. We've got time later for zoo-levy chat. But the zoo can bring out this study from, I think, 2003 to garner support for at least one of their May levies:
"A new study shows the Toledo Zoo is providing a substantial return on taxpayer investment. Executive Director Bill Dennler says the study indicates for every tax dollar the zoo receives, it generates about 8 dollars in local economic activity, and the zoo's annual impact on the local economy is estimated at 70 million dollars."
"Also, the study says people from outside the zoo's primary market area spend 22 million dollars per year at local businesses when visiting the zoo. The study was conducted by the Center for Policy Analysis and Public Service at Bowling Green State University."
Has COSI produced any kind of similar data? What's COSI's annual impact on the local economy? COSI will need more than personal stories to convince people to pass a levy. I hate to say it, but many who believe they are overtaxed like to see cold, hard economic facts.
What will be the return on investment by supporting a COSI levy? How do you quantify the notion that kids do better in school or have more interest in science or whatever because of COSI? How do you chart that?
One part of the zoo study basically says 8:1. It's a nice, simple, understandable stat. Eight dollars returned for every one taxdollar given. Makes for a positive soundbyte. Without some convincing economic stats, I don't see how COSI will get anyone to support a levy.
Our metroparks and library system may not have a big, direct impact on our local economy, but they are free. And they are both excellent systems. So when they put up a levy, I support it. If they were in shambles and wanting money, I'd say no way.
Since COSI charges admission, and if they want taxpayer support, then they better provide some economic impact numbers. And if these numbers aren't good, well, no can do on the levy.
Then we'll get, "What about the kids?" Well, if we weren't bombarded every fall by a TPS levy, then maybe we'd have some money to support a COSI. Right now, I'm thinking a COSI could never live up to the zoo's 8:1 return on investment ratio. And given the choice, I'm guessing taxpayers will choose the zoo over COSI when it comes to supporting levy.
posted by jr at 11:18 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 02, 2006 #
jr - you are very right when you say that COSI is just testing the waters to see what the public's reaction is going to be. It's not like they've gone gung-ho on the issue - they know what happened to the levy in Columbus when that one tried passing - it failed by a 3:1 margin! Of course they're going to be careful in marketing the levy idea. They have until November to get the details out to voters - they don't even know what the law will say (it may change) by the time November comes around.
GuestZero - if you are that against the levies in this town, why haven't you moved yet? Instead of ranting about how much everyone wants to tax Toledoans, why don't you just move and save all of us the griping?
"Either make COSI a public entity (and NO, that doesn't mean just give it money; it must become subject to the TPS system), or keep it private (and let the market establish its viability)."
- Because we can see the TPS system has done REALLY well.... tearing down a high school just to build it a few blocks down the street. yeah, let's make COSI part of THAT.
Keep in mind that you are just ONE opinion out of this entire community. COSI affects not only the kids in Toledo, it also affects a whole batch of schoolkids in Michigan! You have no idea how far people travel to see COSI - there have been so many visitors to the building who say it is SO much better than COSI columbus and how they will come there again and again and again.
GZ - have you been there since their new "Bubbles" exhibit has been there? Have you seen their new BOYO? These are things that keep people coming back. If you don't realize the distance across the country that COSI's education covers, then you obviously don't have a clue as to what an asset it is to the city. You may not want to pay the levy, but it's not like we're asking YOU YOURSELF to fork over thousands of dollars!!!
Relax and do some research and see how far COSI's education goes instead of being wound up within your own little narrow-minded tunnel vision
posted by justmakinconversation at 12:48 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 03, 2006 #
justmakinconversation wrote You may not want to pay the levy, but it's not like we're asking YOU YOURSELF to fork over thousands of dollars!!!
This is the kind of mentality that has gotten Lucas County in the shape it's in. Let's all vote for every levy, it's only a few bucks. Ha!
Your right, your not just asking GuestZero for thousands of dollars, your asking me too! You're also right about "narrow minded tunnel vision" when it comes to my money and who I chose to give it to.
In case you didn't know this, but that money they take out of your's & my paycheck every week, belongs to us. We earned it! I work hard for MY money and I will donate what I can afford to what ever charity I choose to give it to and COSI is not one of my charities.
Like GuestZero say's:If you want to support COSI, then write them a check.
posted by SherryET at 01:54 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 03, 2006 #
In regards to the stated levy numbers for COSI, the Toldo Rag (er, Blade) didn't report quite the right numbers. For a .125 mils levy that is being offered the price comes to betwee $4 and $8 per a year for an average price home in the Lucas county. The reported $4 a month/$50 a year was wrong.
posted by apophistoledo at 10:41 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 03, 2006 #
Sherry and GZ - honestly, if you don't like how this town is run, then move. If you wanna be stingy with your money then fine - obviously you don't care about the education of our community's kids. So are you not going to vote for any levy that has to do with education? That will save you a lot of money I'm sure - at the expense of our future generations.
Do either of you have children? If you don't, I can't expect either of you to understand where I'm coming from. If you do, wouldn't you want your children to have the best education money can buy? My parents did that - they are STILL in debt - but they put their kids first, not money. I'm not talking about simply letting COSI educate children instead of the schools - I'm saying COSI is a great resource as a supplement to schools - the children learn certain topics out of a book and then take field trips to COSI to experiment and learn hands-on so the topics stick in their heads! A LOT of people learn better this way!
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this topic - again, COSI hasn't even gone into explicit detail about what's going to happen, come November - I don't even think they know how the laws will work out. We will see what happens.
posted by justmakinconversation at 12:19 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 03, 2006 #
justmakinconversation, try as you might, you cannot establish a common responsibility for your private interests.
The TPS is $19 million in the red, and you somehow assert that we need another tax levy to support a private entity for the alleged public benefits. But most private entities touch the public in some way, and your line-drawing is still too far into the zone of private benefit.
I've already warned you about the dangers of taxing the public to the extent that they feel the need to get the hell away from you. What's your response? Why, you cordially invite me to leave. Somehow you will watch my money leave while simultaneously demanding money from the public such as myself.
Contradiction time! So ... can you even hear yourself talk? You're EXACTLY the Toledoan Entitlement Case that I've long complained about. You are unable to comprehend that your (and other) private interests cannot be supported by the public treasury. Public funds are for the roads, police, fire protection, utilities and education. Before you jump all over that last term, note well that Toledo already has a public education system (which also performs poorly for the money and must be fixed therefrom). Yet you deny all of this, out of your love for COSI, and somehow in your mind put a private entity under the umbrella of public tax revenue.
Your myopia is obvious. Your inability to distinguish between private and public interests is disgusting. You remind me of Szollosi. (Are you? Is that you, Frank, posting under a pseduonym?)
justmakinconversation said: "Keep in mind that you are just ONE opinion out of this entire community."
But this is NOT a matter of opinion, as I've said before. It's a matter of the theft of public funds for private benefit. A community is not just run by everything being decided by "majority rule". We have a Republic, ruled by a Constitution, laws derived therefrom under legislation, case law ("precedent" and Constitutional testing by interpretation), and common law. In a Republic, it's not just a matter of majority rule. Some things cannot -- and should not -- be done no matter how many people vote YES on it. For other things, it requires a supermajority.
Like, DUH! Where'd you get your civics education at? COSI?
justmakinconversation said: "COSI affects not only the kids in Toledo, it also affects a whole batch of schoolkids in Michigan! You have no idea how far people travel to see COSI - there have been so many visitors to the building who say it is SO much better than COSI columbus and how they will come there again and again and again."
If COSI has such a visitor base much reached by self-marketing, then it ought to be self-sufficient from charging entrance fees, selling snacks, and offering toys and t-shirts. But instead COSI is claiming by implication that it can't support itself. Somebody here is LYING. You're contradicting yourself and COSI's claims.
So, which is it? Either:
» COSI has such a small visitor base that it can't support itself, hence undermining your claim about community effect, OR
» COSI has a large visitor base and a large market presence, but then we can only ask why they can't support themselves from sales of tickets, snacks and souvenirs.
justmakinconversation said: "Relax and do some research and see how far COSI's education goes instead of being wound up within your own little narrow-minded tunnel vision"
What research needs to be done when a citizen such as myself well knows that a wall must exist between private and public interests? If there's a narrow viewpoint here, it's YOURS, from your inability to keep such interests separate. If there's a need for research, it's upon YOU, for your ignorance of citizen responsibilities and the proper use of pubic funds.
apophistoledo said: "For a .125 mils levy that is being offered the price comes to betwee $4 and $8 per a year for an average price home in the Lucas county."
So? Even if true, it's still a problem. Even if cheaper, is a cheap theft not theft at all?
My adopted parents in Toledo have run into the "nickel and dime" problem that's being expressed here. Instead of a retirement in carefully managed fixed incomes (both have SS only) which both had planned on, they are absolutely ATTACKED with property taxation as they attempt to enjoy the fruits of their livelong labors. The home is now running over $200/mo on property taxation alone. They are now RENTERS, since such an amount has transformed the state into their landlord. THIS IS A MORAL CRIME.
posted by GuestZero at 12:58 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 03, 2006 #
justmakinconversation said: "Sherry and GZ - honestly, if you don't like how this town is run, then move."
You are urging the tax base to escape, thereby undermining your demand. That's just ... stupid.
justmakinconversation said: "If you wanna be stingy with your money then fine"
What we do with OUR MONEY is OUR BUSINESS. Still, it's wonderful to hear you admit that it's OUR money, not YOURS, and most of all, by implication, it's NOT for COSI to have by default.
And then, whaddaya know? With OUR money not being stolen by the tax man, we can choose to go to COSI and buy an entrance ticket with that money. WACKY!
justmakinconversation said: "obviously you don't care about the education of our community's kids."
No, we have to fix the TPS first. You'd know this clearly from my own postings on this site about the horrid TPS. But you're probably too busy making COSI trips.
justmakinconversation said: "So are you not going to vote for any levy that has to do with education?"
Not if it supports a private entity. And the money that already goes to the TPS undergoes enormous wastage. All this has to be fixed first. You might have been deprived when growing up, to have missed the advice that necessities must be met before luxuries.
justmakinconversation said: "That will save you a lot of money I'm sure - at the expense of our future generations."
Our saving money is entirely of benefit to the future generations. Toledoans are spending themselves poor as it is. You can hardly argue that increased spending is of any generational benefit.
You might note that there are too many people spending money on trendy shoes, eating out, large appliances, and such, hence a COSI levy seems sensible due to all that overconsumerism. But overconsumerism is a problem, and the solution is not further demands upon a person's income stream.
justmakinconversation said: "Do either of you have children?"
Are any of my points invalid if I don't?
People without children are paying school taxes. Should we refund their money? Or should we tell them to shut up when they complain about being overtaxed?
Do I need to have a need or desire, before having a valid claim upon understanding that need or desire?
Where on Earth did you learn to debate, anyway? I feel as if I'm talking to a 14-yr-old here. The dimensionality of your thought is low. You act as if you cannot grasp any other possibility than your own needs and desires.
In short, in order to have enlightened self-interest, you have to also be ENLIGHTENED (not just self-interested), and that, Sir, you are NOT.
justmakinconversation said: "I'm saying COSI is a great resource as a supplement to schools"
Firstly, the TPS system is so bad that anything can supplement it. The TPS must be fixed, FIRST.
Secondly, supplements are extra. As such, parents can then pay for them directly. I'm happy to hear that you can admit that COSI is such an extra item.
posted by GuestZero at 01:20 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 03, 2006 #
So, how about we cancel the library and zoo levies and roll those two organizations into TPS as well then? They are after all education based institutions.
posted by apophistoledo at 02:18 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 03, 2006 #
apop - you are absolutely correct. Let's just cut out every single levy that has to do with education and turn Toledo into one of the dumbest cities in the country..... OOPS.... already happened.
I refuse to be ridiculed and berated by a bunch of ignorant people for relating my opinion. It is MY OPINION after all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion in this country, but when you start calling people "disgusting" and "a 14 year old" that is completely childish. Have I come out and said "yes I want your money, please let me steal it" - no I haven't - so do NOT accuse me of doing so. Just because I support COSI does not mean I am a thief.
I have never been witness to so many uneducated, ignorant people in all my life.
posted by justmakinconversation at 02:50 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 03, 2006 #
PS GZ - yes it does make your point invalid if you do not have children. You cannot possibly see what I see, therefore you have no other option other than to call me a liar and a thief.
posted by justmakinconversation at 02:52 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 03, 2006 #
Several years ago, I was at the COSI in Columbus, and Toledo's was much better, although Toledo's was also much newer. My last visit to Toledo COSI was two or three years ago. I went with a friend and his niece, and I had a blast. The dinosaur exhibit from, I think, Chicago was there, which was pretty cool. I was a dinosaur junkie when I was a kid. And how can you not like the fart exhibit? Plus that little room that's on an angle and some kind of illusion makes it seem like you're falling down. COSI is a fun place for adults too. At least for child-like adults like me.
"Relax and do some research and see how far COSI's education goes ..."
It's COSI's responsibility to provide this research to the public either through their website or via the media. If it's on their website now, post the link here. Voters shouldn't have to spend time chasing down the data. COSI is the seller here. They need to convince us.
As always, location is everything. If COSI was located at Levis Commons in Perrysburg or, even better, by the Westfield Mall, COSI wouldn't have any problems. Maybe when COSI first opened in downtown Toledo, they expected the downtown to be more developed by now than it really is.
Didn't Carty give developer Pizzuti a deadline of the end of March to select a major anchor for the Marina District or Pizzuti could be booted from the project? Marina District progress can help COSI's chances.
posted by jr at 06:20 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 03, 2006 #
Sherry and GZ - honestly, if you don't like how this town is run, then move. If you wanna be stingy with your money then fine - obviously you don't care about the education of our community's kids. So are you not going to vote for any levy that has to do with education?
I refuse to be ridiculed and berated by a bunch of ignorant people for relating my opinion. It is MY OPINION after all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion in this country,
You wanted me to move because of my opinion, and you accuse me of being stingy and uncaring. "The Children" get enough of my tax money. I donate my time to Mobile Meals, and take the elderly grocery shopping,plus slip them a few bucks from time to time. People who have worked hard all their life, just to get screwed at the end of it, deserve my time and money.
posted by SherryET at 09:23 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 03, 2006 #
Having returned from vacation and finding WAY too many articles to catch up on, I decided that this one needed some clarification - so it's first on the list and apologies for the length...
I've been told by individuals who were involved in COSI when it first was being considered that their financial projections showed that it could only support itself for about 5-7 years and then would need some other kind of support (infusion of money from other sources or a levy). If anyone has further information or actual documents, I'd love to see them so this can be verified.
COSI has known for several years that they were facing financial difficulties. The board members have made tremendous strides in reducing some costs and in looking at alternatives to other costs. While I do not know about "layoffs of educational staff," I do know that a decision was made to partner with higher ed institutions and use those resources for educational guidance instead of having their own staff. This seems to make sense as it reduces costs for COSI and strengthens ties with higher education.
Their main problem in terms of costs is their operational expenses for the building and the exhibits. The building was never designed to be used as it is (again - that whole issue of a building designed to draw your attention outside and putting in an operation that focuses your attention inside). It is extremely costly to heat in the winter and cool in the summer - and I don't want to get into a discussion about electric and gas rates - y'all can apply those comments yourself.
Another point is the levy itself. There is already a provision in Ohio law that will allow COSI Toledo to seek a levy. It is my understanding that this will not generate enough money for operation as is needed (there are some restrictions on how money collected under this section of the ORC can be used). Therefore: THEY NEED TO HAVE LEGISLATORS IN COLUMBUS CREATE A NEW LAW to allow them to go on the ballot. They have hired two individuals to help "move" this change in law through the house and senate.
Finally, when it comes to the educational value of COSI, I don't believe anyone says that COSI doesn't have a benefit...however, with school costs going up, the number of students who actually take field trips to COSI has declined (according to my conversations with COSI board members) because the schools are cutting costs and field trips are a not a necessity when it comes to budgets.
I've also seen their study which says that (I forget the exact number) most centers rely upon public support to stay open and ours is one of the few that do not. Also the study says visitors to COSI get more value than they pay in admission and that their admission rates are very reasonable when compared to other science centers. Maybe these other centers know something we don't about admission rates?
I have been very upfront with Dr. Walsh, chairman of the COSI Toledo board, that I do not believe a levy is the right thing to do. I'm on record with him opposing a levy AND any change in the law designed to benefit a single entity. As at least one other commissioner was asked to send a letter of support for the change in the law, I've sent letters to the house and senate leadership opposing the change in the law.
As a result of my position on this, I've been accused of "undermining" COSI, of not caring about children and their education, and of being an "evil Republican" who doesn't care about social concerns.
But I believe that GuestZero and SherryET have made extremely thoughtful and well-worded arguments.
While we are a republic and not a democracy, I believe this quote is very pertinent to the issue:
AUTHOR: Alexander Fraser Tytler (1747–1813)
QUOTATION: A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
ATTRIBUTION: Attributed to ALEXANDER FRASER TYTLER, LORD WOODHOUSELEE. Unverified. (www.bartleby.com)
posted by MaggieThurber at 07:50 A.M. EST on Sat Mar 04, 2006 #
Thank you Ms. Thurber for your thoughts on this issue! I know I, for one, really do appreciate it. Thank you for being SO frank and correct on the issue!!!
When Ms. Thurber said: "Finally, when it comes to the educational value of COSI, I don't believe anyone says that COSI doesn't have a benefit...however, with school costs going up, the number of students who actually take field trips to COSI has declined (according to my conversations with COSI board members) because the schools are cutting costs and field trips are a not a necessity when it comes to budgets."
- You are very much correct. Especially not believing that COSI doesn't have a benefit. The numbers have gone down, however the children who still can visit receive a great experience from COSI!
When Maggie Thurber realizes that COSI has a benefit for the city, other people who think otherwise really have no idea what is going on educationally in the city.
Maybe Sherry should stick to Mobile Meals.
posted by justmakinconversation at 08:17 A.M. EST on Sat Mar 04, 2006 #
justmakinconversation - please note that I believe COSI has value, but I do not believe it should have a levy and that taxpayers should pay to support it. Please don't misconstrue my believe in their value with a belief that all things which have value deserve to be supported with PUBLIC dollars.
I actually agree with SherryET and GuestZero who said that if you believe it has value, write a check - but do not expect that others must also write a check.
I very much support the individual's right to determine which organizations get their financial and time contributions. And I, too, am a supporter of Mobile Meals. While I give financially to many charities, Mobile Meals gets both my money AND my time (with their Wine Gala Fundraiser).
I'm a firm believer that if people weren't taxed so much and had more of their own dollars to spend themselves we wouldn't need levies to support "worthwhile, private, non-profit organizations."
posted by MaggieThurber at 12:31 P.M. EST on Sat Mar 04, 2006 #
I understand your point. I was not attempting to give the impression that you believed a tax levy would help COSI - I was merely reiterating that you and I do believe that COSI has an impact in the community - forget financially - purely educationally, yes, COSI has value in this town
If I have read and processed your post incorrectly, I do apologize.
What I admire about your posts, Ms. Thurber, is that you can make a point without name calling and pointing fingers and making claims that certain individual people are thieves and liars and "stupid".
I admire your frankness and bluntness without becoming a "doodoohead" (as my 3 year old would say). This is a refreshing turn from a few of the posters on this particular issue.
For that, Ms. Thurber, I thank you.
posted by justmakinconversation at 02:29 A.M. EST on Sun Mar 05, 2006 #
JMC - thanks for the compliments and please call me Maggie.
posted by MaggieThurber at 06:40 A.M. EST on Sun Mar 05, 2006 #
You're welcome, Maggie!
Thank you for being so concise and elegant in your wording.
I really do appreciate it - in a world where everyone always wants to start arguments with others, it's good to hear from people who can still be tactful in a debate.
Thanks!
posted by justmakinconversation at 01:30 A.M. EST on Mon Mar 06, 2006 #
apophistoledo said: "So, how about we cancel the library and zoo levies and roll those two organizations into TPS as well then? They are after all education based institutions."
Library and school systems have been well able to be separate over the years (hell, millennia). Additionally, the public library system is already on public support.
But I'm not going to knock change. I'd be very receptive to transforming the public library system to a private library system that requires subscription and sponsorship. The public library system is "just different" than the public school system, but even that needn't be the case in practice. The historical differences don't mean that we can't change it. We COULD put the public library for Lucas County under ... er, waitaminute, there is NO county school system. County libraries can't be put under a school system unless the system itself is broken into pieces put under the variety of school systems within the county.
Of course, a private library system would have to honor several covenants.
Firstly, the library system is a public asset. In order to make it private, the public would need to SELL that asset to the private holders. The list price for the TLCPL would be quite high, considering the inherent value of the media, buildings and staff. Who would buy it?
Secondly, even private, the library system must honor the provisions of public access, like any other private entity like a buying club, country club, and other private entities that offer subscription.
Let's now talk about the next travesty upon the list of Toledo Welfare Cases: the zoo. The zoo is not an educational institution. People go there to be entertained. Sure, they can learn quite a bit, but animals are put upon display primarily for entertainment value. COSI is more educational in that way than the zoo, even despite COSI's aim at being more entertaining than just reading a book.
But still, I'm not opposed to it. Sure, go ahead and propose that the zoo (unfortunately, on public support now) be put under the aegis of the TPS. Equally so, I'll advocate that the zoo should never have fallen under the aegis of government, and that like COSI, it should rely on various and direct usage fees to cover its own budget.
justmakinconversation said: "Let's just cut out every single levy that has to do with education and turn Toledo into one of the dumbest cities in the country..... OOPS.... already happened."
A lack of levies didn't lead Toledo to this end. Toledo was doing just fine with schools before, in the previous generation. The schools were funded by public levies which placed the burden upon property taxes, which were paid by all property owners. Then the fatal economic hit occurred, largely in the late 1970s. Toledo has lost businesses, tax revenue from remaining businesses, and residents ever since ... while the tax burden upon all remaining citizens has increased enormously.
But you're not even talking about "cutting" levies in the first place. You're advocating ADDING MORE.
What's now making Toledo really, REALLY dumb is the Toledoan Entitlement Mentality. You obviously have it. So a short stint in front of the mirror is required for you to understand a serious cause behind your complaints.
justmakinconversation said: "I refuse to be ridiculed and berated by a bunch of ignorant people for relating my opinion. It is MY OPINION after all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion in this country, but when you start calling people "disgusting" and "a 14 year old" that is completely childish. Have I come out and said "yes I want your money, please let me steal it" - no I haven't - so do NOT accuse me of doing so. Just because I support COSI does not mean I am a thief."
If you openly advocate a disgusting opinion that additionally follows the Toledoan Entitlement Mentality, then you should rightly expect to be called disgusting and mentally immature. But I'm just being redundant. Your words strongly illustrate that you are philosophically too young and are unable to see beyond your self-interest. Remember, I spoke of ENLIGHTENED self-interest. Anyone can advocate public spending upon something that directly benefits themselves and their families. That's only a short distance above animal needs. But it takes respect of the boundaries of others, that forms the enlightenment, producing an objectively superior philosophy. Humanity is not just advanced through the advancement of individuals. Humanity must also be advanced by the advancement of societies.
If there's any lack of education here, it resides within you. You clearly don't understand that by even putting a levy on the ballot, or even advocating such, for a private entity, that you are advocating theft. You clearly don't understand (from your background) that loading up on private-benefit levies drives people away from the majority-rules robbers. You clearly don't understand that Toledoans are individually over-taxed. All this screams about your lack of social education. All this strongly suggests that you don't pay attention to the fiscal aspects of your society.
Any fool can apply a majority-rules scenario. The wiser man understands that that leads to the "tyranny of the majority" (democracy), which is as morally wrong as "tyranny of the minority" (autocracy). The United States of America was rightfully based upon a Constitutional Republic, which is NOT a Democracy. This design was based upon the educated and Deist sensibilities of the Founders.
You might spend some time reading some of the statements of the Founders. You need their wisdom.
justmakinconversation said: "PS GZ - yes it does make your point invalid if you do not have children. You cannot possibly see what I see, therefore you have no other option other than to call me a liar and a thief"
There is no provision in the law to have a citizen treated inequitably depending upon things like marital status and parenthood. When I go to the polls, and cast my NO vote on this despicable COSI levy, my vote has equal weight to yours. I will NOT be taxed without representation. Again, if you had sufficient education in the philosophies of America's founding, you'd find this wording strangely familiar, even chilling.
justmakinconversation said: "forget financially - purely educationally"
Thank you for confessing this. This is the heart of your failure. You don't care about what COSI costs the public; you just want it to "educate" your kids (which itself is a highly specious argument considering how much more that kids need to read BOOKS today). Anyone who dismisses costs has no right to morally advocate the allocation of public funds.
AND FINALLY, "justmakinconversation", I have to ask you ONCE AGAIN to clarify about who is lying OR ignorantly wrong here. If COSI has the impact that you claim -- all those kids visiting it, as you claim, remember -- then it should be able to support itself with entrance fees, snacks and a giftshop. But since COSI is claiming that it can't, then it only stands to reason that COSI has too small of a social footprint, hence not worthly of investment. SO WHICH IS IT? Has COSI lied, or have YOU lied? Is COSI wrong, or are YOU wrong? It can't be both.
I have a crying towel handy, in case you need it. This may not be tactful, but then again, neither is your seething dishonesty and self-ignorance.
posted by GuestZero at 02:52 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 06, 2006 #
I've worked at COSI Toledo full-time for several years (1998-2003), and for the past 3 years on an on-call basis.
Frankly, back in 2001 you could see the writing on the wall. The economy was faltering, attendance was starting to lag. And the one thing I knew from my job experience was that expenses were going to go up.
Why? ...I worked in the exhibits division. It was part of my job to build and fix their exhibits. Most of you might not know, but when COSI Toledo was built in 1997 it was created from many of the past exhibits made by COSI Columbus. At that time, COSI Columbus was in a smaller facility and didn't have the space to put out all their exhibits. When they helped to found COSI Toledo we got many of their exhibits from storage. So, most of the exhibits were built with components (electronics, motors, gears, etc.) from around the year 1996. As my work with them went on through the years, I saw many of the expensive internal parts wear out from general use. Motors, custom-fabricated parts, hydraulics, electronics, cameras, etc. All of these items cost money to replace, and we were spending more to replace them than we were bringing in from our revenue. Soon enough, some exhibits were beyond our financial means to replace, so they were either removed from the floor and put in storage, or they were replaced with a new exhibit. By 2002, our division's budget was so restricted that we could not afford to fix the exhibits. This meant all we could do was make the place look empty or put signs on the exhibits until the beginning of the month when we could order replacement parts. Not to mention trying to provide upkeep on a building built in 1984 (and substandardly, I may add.) The heating and cooling systems had not had an ounce of maintenance done on from when Portside closed until COSI opened in 1997. the amount of dust that had accumulatedin the ductwork was a foot thick, and even as late as 2003 I remember our maintenance people trying ot get it all removed. then our chiller (Air Conditioning system) broke, etc... And soon enough we had our first layoffs (3 FT employees) and we stopped having our part-time staff work on Mondays. I finished my education and left for another job, and things just kept going downhill for them.
As for COSI Columbus, they didn't fare better. In 1999 they moved into a new building, one way too big for them at the time. By 2004 they were only working out of half the building. They couldn't afford the cost of using the full building.
COSI Columbus and COSI Toledo are not the same either. Where CT staked their future on being an educational supplement, building a Distance Learning Lab that teleconferences to classrooms, etc., CC staked their future on being an entertainment/Disneyland experience. They did away with the science behind their exhibits, replacing the signs that explain the science with elaborate decor and scenery.
But, bottom line: COSI's budget was never sustainable from day 1. The long term costs to keep the place running eventually caught up with them.
It's now up to the local citizens to decide whether or not they think COSI is worth whatever millage that is up for the levy.
Of course I know much more of the details on COSIs past than most on this site (and yes, mistakes were made!), I still say they're worth it.
Five years of seeing children come in to COSI and helping them learn something new (you know we had an exhibit that showed how a refrigerator works? - how many adults truly understand that? ...I used to show that exhibit to 4th graders and they walked away knowing how it worked!)... it's definitely worth it.
posted by timault at 05:45 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 06, 2006 #
GZ - since when am I advocating public funds? I am supporting COSI's education factor - not the fact that a levy should support it. If you can post a specific quote where I said "Yes, please spend every dollar you have on COSI with this levy that might not even happen" - be my guest
- you are assuming that the levy will even happen. There has been no affirmation of that fact. So until there is, I suggest you close your mouth.
Tim - Thank you for your words. Hopefully you can open SOME PEOPLE'S eyes to what COSI really stands for.
Its a shame when all people see is dollar signs when it comes to the education of our future (including the management of the place).
posted by justmakinconversation at 12:57 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 07, 2006 #
If timault's testimony is correct, COSI was really only a single science exhibit ... on INERTIA. It ran on inertia until socio-economic friction slowed it down enough in its orbit that it became obvious that it would re-enter and burn up.
This is a poster child for Toledoan behavior. The light poles around the city were (and still are) another fine example of that. Toledoans let those poles sit for years without sufficient maintenance -- not even re-painting! -- until one fine day when one fell over on a line worker or two. Then some replacement program happened in downtown, where the accident occurred and some elite visibility happens. Well, that was short but not too sweet, since in many other places, the poles are still being ignored. Along the AWT, one pole had either fallen or had been removed and left in the median near the I75 overpasses. A short distance away, several more poles are actually BENT from auto impacts, and actually lean into the roadway alarmingly.
This is all typical Toledo. The people with money simply don't spend it, the people with authority don't do their duty, and largely all of these people only do so under direct threats.
Subject to this primitive mentality, COSI's lackluster existence has sat in its farcical building for eons, just to inhabit a downtown embarrassment to make the politicians look less inept. Meanwhile, its exhibits wore down and were put away, according to timault. And now complete jerks like justmakinconversation are advocating bailing COSI out with a public levy ... while light poles are still rusting and leaning, and the school system is $19 million in the red, and downtown Toledo's residential developments have produced about $35 million in draws upon public funds over time, and on, and on, and on, and on ....
justmakinconversation said: "GZ - since when am I advocating public funds?"
What!? You're trying this kind of lie so blatantly, not a few pages below YOUR OWN statement here:
"It may need help, but that's just it..... IT NEEDS HELP. I pay taxes just like everybody else - I believe the education of our young people is extremely important and COSI should stay. If it means 50 cents or a dollar a month, so what?? I believe our young people need to be educated in the science field and I am going to support COSI in their effort to do that. [paragraph] That's my opinion. Ya'll are entitled to yours, but I know how I'm going to vote- in support of my kids' knowledge and future."
Supporting a levy means supporting the spending of public funds. You obviously want the levy to happen; you obviously believe (erroneously) that it's moral to steal public funds to operate a private entity; and you have no concern (i.e. your "so what?" statement) for the use of the money of others for your own personal gain.
DUH.
justmakinconversation said: "you are assuming that the levy will even happen. There has been no affirmation of that fact. So until there is, I suggest you close your mouth."
I talk here like you do, until Jr renames the site ToledoShutYerYap.com. But that hardly matters. As a citizen I am fully involved or interested in the decisions of government. The premise of a COSI levy has been raised in the media several times. The gauntlet has been thrown at our feet already. It is PRECISELY time to talk about it. And so I shall, and I shall further continue.
I still have a crying towel available for you, should you now require it.
justmakinconversation said: "Its a shame when all people see is dollar signs when it comes to the education of our future (including the management of the place)."
Economics is where it begins. You can only spend what you earn. There is no place for COSI in Toledo's budget for 2 reasons:
1. It's a private entity, hence it has no right to have its costs borne by the public. None whatsoever.
2. Toledo is dying and there are far more important things to repair than COSI.
justmakinconversation , you've still avoided answering my twice-before asked question. Who has lied or is indulging in ignorance? You or COSI? If COSI is as popular as you've implied, then it should be supported by ticket sales. If COSI isn't, then it's not the social benefit you've implied.
WELL?! Which is it? WHO'S LYING, or WHO'S BEING IGNORANT? (Since you lie so easily from the above example, I'm betting it's the former, and it's YOU.)
posted by GuestZero at 02:57 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 07, 2006 #
FYI - two commissioners have already supported placing a COSI levy on the ballot if they can get the law changed in Columbus in time for the Novemeber election deadline for levies.
posted by MaggieThurber at 07:17 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 07, 2006 #
GZ - I still don't see where you believe I'm lying about anything. Just because YOU don't see where the educational value in COSI lies, doesn't mean there aren't a whole slew of other people who do see the value.
Did you read timault's post at all? Then you would know that they realized that whole inertia thing quite a few years ago - it's not like this is a surprise.
So when you say "The people with money simply don't spend it, the people with authority don't do their duty, and largely all of these people only do so under direct threats." - you are implying that Maggie Thurber is involved in this area, correct? Why don't you talk to her about this instead of arguing on this site?
How is what you call "debating" involving condescending language such as "I still have a crying towel available for you, should you now require it." That is purely ridiculous language and has no place in a debate/discussion.
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this topic (which I already mentioned before).
posted by justmakinconversation at 03:22 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 07, 2006 #
Hey GZ - why don't you write a big fat check to the school systems, downtown residential developments and fixing the light poles???
Or don't you want to do that either?
posted by justmakinconversation at 03:49 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 07, 2006 #
justmakinconversation said: "GZ - I still don't see where you believe I'm lying about anything."
You're still refusing to answer the basic question I've now put to you too many times for me to recall the count, to wit:
You claimed that COSI has important social impact, yet COSI claims that it needs a levy to support itself. So, who's LYING, or who is IGNORANT here? Important social impact can only mean a visiting population, yet such a population would generate the ticket sales that COSI denies by implication is happening.
Both can't be true. So someone's lying, or is ignorant. That could be YOU. Since you refuse to address this basic exercise in logic, I'm inclined to believe that it IS you, not COSI. I believe that you're being ignorant, or you're lying.
justmakinconversation said: "Just because YOU don't see where the educational value in COSI lies, doesn't mean there aren't a whole slew of other people who do see the value."
Once again, this is not a matter of opinion or even fact about COSI's educational value. It's a private enterprise and therefore has no moral claim upon public funds. I've said this several times in a few different ways, yet you continue to chatter on as if I never said that in the first place.
justmakinconversation said: "So when you say "The people with money simply don't spend it, the people with authority don't do their duty, and largely all of these people only do so under direct threats." - you are implying that Maggie Thurber is involved in this area, correct? Why don't you talk to her about this instead of arguing on this site?"
Ms Thurber and the rest of the politicians are only half of the problem. The other half is composed of ignorant or deceitful citizens like yourself.
And at any rate, Ms Thurber is only one pol and may not be directly related to replacing worn electric poles.
And furthermore, if her handle is to be believed, she is reading all of this too, so talking is happening. She's jumped in several times, in fact.
justmakinconversation said: "How is what you call "debating" involving condescending language such as "I still have a crying towel available for you, should you now require it." That is purely ridiculous language and has no place in a debate/discussion."
That's because you're not actually debating. You avoid direct, pertinent questions (for example, abo
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