I do not have flooding in my neighborhood, but I avoid going out (like in a snowstorm) when it is raining hard because I do not know where the floods will be. It makes it difficult to get to some places. I wish they would fix this crap so people's lives can be pleasant again and people can travel around without wondering if they can get from point A to point B.
posted by fequalsma73 at 05:17 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
Wasn't the site of Toledo originally called Frog Town?
posted by stukerr at 05:54 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
It was the Great Black Swamp! :)
posted by fequalsma73 at 06:01 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
The local media seems to be only concerned with the golf classic and the all-star game getting rained out.
posted by Darkseid at 06:04 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
This morning during a walk through Old Orchard as I went to lunch I saw a homeowner out at one of the the street corners with a hoe. She had waded into the standing water at the corner and was unclogging the sewer grates.... turns out that the debris from last June's flood was never cleared out of the streets and had buried the drains. Once she popped out the debris the water was gone in about 3 minutes.
Glad to see the City of Toledo out on the job... BTW: I asked if she was working for the city and the only reply I got was a laugh...
posted by timault at 06:14 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
As of 5:00 p.m. today, Sylvania Township received 3.70 inches of rain and Toledo Express Airport 2.60 inches.
posted by jr at 06:43 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
In lighter news Jack's Canoe Shop is selling record numbers this year.
How'd I deal with the rain?
I was arrested after getting into a fight with a one armed man because that S.O.B. kept rowing in circles. (disclaimer) The above statement is not true and I wish no harm on one armed men no matter how they row.
posted by MikeyA at 06:52 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
This morning during a walk through Old Orchard as I went to lunch I saw a homeowner out at one of the the street corners with a hoe. She had waded into the standing water at the corner and was unclogging the sewer grates.... turns out that the debris from last June's flood was never cleared out of the streets and had buried the drains. Once she popped out the debris the water was gone in about 3 minutes.
Same thing happened to me in the early 90's when I was living on Vermaas near Jackman/Laskey. The city didnt get around to picking up leaves when they should have, and they got snowed on. Then folks drove on them, crushed them up, and they all washed down the gutter.
The city came out with a big vacuum truck and within minutes there was a whirlpool in my basement drain - too bad this happened AFTER a foot of water came up the drain.
Seems to me that with all this rain those guys with the big vacuum truck oughtta be working overtime - has anyone seen them?
posted by billy at 06:56 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
It's been brought up here a couple of times, but what did Toledo officials do/learn after the deluge of rain on Saturday, July 29, 2000 that flooded a lot of people in the city? I believe that was the date. I know it was a Saturday because I was participating in a bike tour.
Were the areas flooded in 2000 the same places that have flooded over the past month?
Did the city study what happened in 2000?
On July 29, 2000, I rode a bike tour in North Baltimore, and it didn't rain there. On the drive back to Rossford where I lived at the time, low-hanging, dark clouds confronted me. I got into a heavy rain shield at the I-75/I-475 split, and the rain kept getting heavier and heavier as I drove north. And I was at the tailend of the storm because it didn't last much longer.
Toledo Metcalf airport recorded 2.45 inches of rain. Metcalf is located south of Toledo in northern Wood County near 795.
It seems Toledo Express Airport only measured 0.34 inches, assuming that is TEA's data.
Recalling back, I think the storm covered a small area of the region, mainly over Toledo, which I thought received between three and four inches of rain.
According to the Metcalf data, the rain started about 1:00 p.m. and ended at 3:00 p.m. So a lot of rain in a very short period of time.
Surely, the city had to compile data from that July 29, 2000 event for future reference.
Here's a September 18, 2000 FEMA doc, giving info about assistance for those flooded from the July 29, 2000 rains.
" People in Lucas County who have been affected by the storms and flooding, which occurred July 29 to August 2 ..."
"Disaster assistance for flood victims in Lucas County has topped more than $4.1 million in grants and low-interest loans and more than 3,000 residents have called to apply for assistance, according to federal and state disaster officials."
"Disaster housing grants totaling $3,038,646 for 1,750 applicants have been approved. These grants, which may be just the first type of assistance, are available to eligible individuals and families whose permanent homes were damaged or destroyed by the storms and flooding. The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) grants may cover temporary rental assistance, emergency repairs needed to make a residence habitable or reimbursement for repairs that have already been completed, and mortgage or rental assistance in cases where the disaster has caused extreme economic hardship."
"The U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA) has approved more than $1.1 million in low-interest for homeowners and renters, as well as business owners with disaster-related uninsured or under-insured losses. The total includes $977,200 for 88 loans for individuals and families and $159,300 for 14 business loans."
"In addition, almost $200,000 has been approved for just 108 applicants through the Individual and Family Grants (IFG) Program, which provides a safety net for people who have exhausted all other means of assistance and still have unmet disaster-related needs. The grants are a last resort and in most cases are available only if an applicant has been denied an SBA disaster loan."
That FEMA doc said flooding occurred July 29 to August 2. The heavy rainstorm was on July 29. Checking the Metcalf data for those other days shows little to no precipitation. I don't think it was a multi-day rainstorm. The flooding left behind from the brief but torrential storm may have hung round for a few days.
On August 21, 2000, President Clinton declared Lucas County a major disaster area.
"FEMA Director James Lee Witt said the President's action authorizes the use of federal funds to help meet the recovery needs of county residents and business owners who sustained damage from severe storms and flooding that hit the area over the period of July 29 through August 2."
Maybe some additional storms did occur after the 29th that compounded the problem. I just remember that Saturday being the big day.
FEMA and the Ohio EMA opened emergency centers in Toledo on August 28, 2000.
FEMA news about the 2000 storm and flooding.
I can't find any news about how much rain fell inside Toledo on July 29, 2000.
posted by jr at 07:43 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
jr - have you tried this?
posted by MaggieThurber at 08:05 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
On the 28th, it was 1.25
and on the 29th, it was .25
and on the 31st, it was 1.78...
at Toledo Express.
posted by MaggieThurber at 08:11 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
Seems to me that Toledoans are getting fed up with more of the same old, same old, and are willing to back whatever it takes to make the rains efficiently drain away from the streets and also keep them out of their basements.
Now, if only we can get the administration to level with them/us about what it will take (besides timely catch basin cleaning and maintenance) to fix this once and for all.
We're not buying that "100-year" storm story any more. Around here, we get a 100-year rain way too often...
Other regions survive these kinds of rains without flooding, so we know that it CAN be done.
What ever it takes...
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 08:22 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
For July 29, 2000, we need rainfall amounts from within Toledo city limits, which would probably have to come from a TV station. On that day, the storm was localized enough that TEA didn't get the rain that the city did. The Toledo Blade archives should have info about this.
I'm pretty sure that within the city limits, Toledo got 3 to 4 inches and maybe more in spots.
Rainfall in the amounts that TEA recorded on those three days would not be enough to cause the area to be declared a federal disaster area.
posted by jr at 08:40 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
jr - that website I linked had rainfall amounts for Metcalf field, but there was nothing recorded. They stopped taking measurements at the Coast Guard Station in the Point in 1998...sorry.
posted by MaggieThurber at 08:51 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
July 7,2000 Toledo gets $1 million for Shantee Creek, $892,000 for Eisenbraum Ditch from the Ohio Public Works Commission.
May 22, 2002 Toledo pay $3.16 each month for sewer utility fund. City hopes to solve high water problem at Shantee Creek, Eisenbraum ditches and Detroit Avenue at Dura underpass.
July 9, 2002 West Toledo may soon get relief thanks to 84 inch pipe lining south side of Laskey Rd. Dave Moebius says "fairly simple project". Should provide relief from "that 25 year storm, the one you, theoretically get only once every 25 years."
July 12, 2006 Flooding continues to drench Toledo's streets.....and the beat goes on, the beat goes on, and the beat goes on,on,on. Drums keep pounding rhythm to the brain lah de dah di di.............
WSPD tomorrow morning with the rest of the story.
posted by buttonpusher at 09:02 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 12, 2006 #
jr,
I swear by Weather Underground... it was founded by a colleague of my boss, and we use their data for much of our research.
Here's their almanac info for July 29, 2000 at Toledo Metcalf
http://www.wunderground.com/
posted by timault at 12:11 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 13, 2006 #
We're not buying that "100-year" storm story any more. Around here, we get a 100-year rain way too often...
GLOBAL WARMING!!!!!!!!!!11111111111oneoneoneeleven
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:38 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 13, 2006 #
""This is a regional problem and is going to require a regional solution," Mr. Finkbeiner said.
Warren Henry, a principal with the engineering firm Finkbeiner, Pettis & Strout Inc., which has won many city projects in the past, will begin working full-time for the city on Monday to evaluate the drainage system."
Are there any Carty ties to this firm?
posted by Toledolaw05 at 07:29 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 13, 2006 #
Toledo was indeed built on a swamp. With the fill of building and later the installation of public sewers, the water table dropped.
The area of Florita and the Dorr/Reynolds area are suffering from man made problems.
The city allowed newer residential building. They also allowed the new homes to be built higher than the existing neighborhood. This created a depression in the area of the existing homes.
Rather than install run off sewers to handle the flooding that began to occur, immediately - they put in a storm 'ditch' to run the rain water off. This (? I think they said 12' wide ditch) ditch drains into a TWO INCH PIPE. This pipe is suffering from neglect and to make the matter worse, it is clogged with debris and broken concrete pieces because the concrete around the pipe was even poured. It was 'drizzled'. I saw pictures of all of this at the city council meeting.
The fix is very simple and very cheap. Install a reasonably wide drainage pipe (it's also a SHORT distance) and allow the water to run off rather than stand.
Global warming my ass.
posted by katie82640 at 08:03 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 13, 2006 #
Global Warming? Have you seen Toledo in winter? lol
posted by fequalsma73 at 09:14 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 13, 2006 #
You guys need to lightin up on Carty.The flooding was not his fault.It was a right wing conspiracy headed by George Bush and the Republicans.Just like in New Orleans it was ole Georges' Fault and not the New Orleans Mayor.LOL!
posted by buckeye277 at 12:56 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 13, 2006 #
Global warming is an idiotic response based on idiotic science.
I heard an interesting figure today. The tax bucks that Toledo spends on storm drain upkeep and repair per year? $8 Million!!!
Think we're getting the best bang for the buck??
posted by billy at 02:05 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 13, 2006 #
timault, thanks, but the Metcalf data is what I used in my earlier post. Metcalf got 2.45 inches, which is a lot in two hours. But on that day six years ago, I think Metcalf was far enough south to not get the full force of the storm.
I bet the amateur weather nerds within Toledo like a SkyWarn observer would have rainfall amounts. In fact, because they are scattered around the city, their data could be useful.
posted by jr at 03:12 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 13, 2006 #
Right on billy! Global warming! Ha! Ha! Isn't that the Al Gore excuse for everything that happens with mother nature?After all, Al did invent the internet didn't he? LOL
posted by buckeye277 at 06:28 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 13, 2006 #
Kevin Milliken has been hammering away at the flooding for two nights now on WSPD...had some info about the Toledo Waterways Initiative and a lawsuit that took more than a decade to settle.
Appears to have used a lot of info that's buried on the city's website.
Here's a link to some info he promised to put on the radio station's website:
http://www.wspd.com/pages/eyeontoledo.html
posted by sparky at 06:45 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 13, 2006 #
ok...my apology buckeye ( :-)
I heard that guy's show last week. I was hopping up and down. He is a wee bit outspoken but not mean. Sarcastic/funny and not afraid to make the point.
posted by katie82640 at 07:09 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 13, 2006 #
A couple radar images just before 3:00 p.m. today shows more heavy rain likely for the area.
posted by jr at 02:04 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
Special weather statement issued a few minutes ago.
----
Expires 9:15 PM EDT on July 14, 2006
Statement as of 3:30 PM EDT on July 14, 2006
The National Weather Service in Cleveland has issued a
* Flash Flood Warning for...
Lucas County in Northwest Ohio
this includes the city of Toledo
* until 915 PM EDT
* at 330 PM EDT... National Weather Service Doppler radar indicated
a line of thunderstorms with very heavy rainfall moving into Lucas
County. Rainfall of up to 3 inches in one hour is possible in this
line of thunderstorms... and flash flooding is likely in the warned
area.
* Locations in the warning include but are not limited to
Toledo... Sylvania... and Oregon.
Excessive runoff from heavy rainfall will cause flooding of small
creeks... streams and ditches. Urban areas including
Highways... streets and underpasses will also be prone to flooding
this evening.
A Flash Flood Warning means that flooding is imminent or occurring.
Residents living along streams and creeks should take immediate
precautions to protect life and property. Do not attempt to cross
flooded roads by foot or by automobile. Turn around... don't drown!
----
posted by jr at 02:37 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
Here's the National Weather Service's page for Ohio that lists warnings and advisories, forecasts, hourly weather, etc.
posted by jr at 02:41 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
man oh man...
Anybody know where I can by a canoe at a good price?
posted by timault at 02:56 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
"buy" a canoe... sorry.
posted by timault at 02:57 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
Whoa nellie. In west Toledo, very dark out and then a few minutes ago a torrential downpour began at 3:52. Heavy sheets of rain, low visibility. Winds not bad here, 10-20 mph, maybe a little higher gusts.
posted by jr at 03:02 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
Rain is hitting here. Thunder and sheets of rain.
I'm thinking about the people in the Dorr St. area. This would be their their 4th flood in four weeks.....those poor, poor people.
posted by katie82640 at 03:07 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
Speaking of Dorr St., what will happen to the A-A Festival that's beginning today @ 5pm? They have tents set up on Smead & Indiana, surrounding the Nelson Grace Park.
posted by MrsPhoenix at 03:23 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
What about residents on Crawford? We should make Carty live on Crawford for a couple of weeks. He'd have city crews out there every day checking to make sure the system was flowing properly. Canoe? I'm thinking Ark!
posted by sflagg at 03:32 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
The latest deluge of rain occured in West Toledo between 3:50 and 4:10 p.m. I took these pics of flooded streets near home between 4:30 and 5:30 p.m. The camera got a little schmucked up from the rain, so the pics are a bit fuzzy or something.
The first three are at Douglas Rd near Boxwood Rd, between Carlita's Mexican-Italian restaurant and the Sunoco at Douglas and Laskey.
The next two are from the location of Sylvania Ave and Buell Ave, at the west entrance of the DeVeaux shopping village just west of Douglas Rd.
The flooding of those two spots above is not due to saturated ground like Carty thinks. Both spots flooded like above after a rainstorm last summer.
One day last summer, while I was out and about in west Toledo, we got nailed with a toad strangler. On the way home on Sylvania Ave, I decided to go up to the Sunoco at Douglas and Laskey to get gas. I took a side street to get around the flooding on Sylvania at the DeVeaux shopping village. I passed my house and got back on Douglas and drove through the flooding on Douglas just north of Carlita's.
For this summer, I didn't see if these spots were flooded on Wednesday, on July 3/4, and back in June, but after talking with people today, obviously they were flooded those other times too.
Today on Douglas, the water was mostly contained within the road except when assholes in big trucks went smashing through just for the hell of it. I got pics of the same Hummer going up and down Douglas and then later on Sylvania. In fact, the first pic above shows the Hummer passing someone through the flooded zone.
The punk was out joy-riding. He was going like the road was bone dry. An idiot like that deserves a citizen beat down. The wake left behind morons driving like that pushes the water further up into the yards and closer to the homes.
A resident near the Douglas road flooding told me today that the water from the June flooding was way up into the yards.
I believe that flooded area of Douglas Rd was part of the a major reconstruction project from two or three summers ago. Our street to Douglas was closed during the construction. It wasn't simple asphalt resurfacing. That section of Douglas road was closed for a few months for, I think, sewer and drain replacements. I know last summer I was surprised to see that part of Douglas Rd flooded.
I'll have to verify that today's flooded area on Douglas Rd was indeed included in that construction of 2004. A resident told me today it was. I'm thinking we're not getting our money's worth on these construction projects.
I'm not sure what the problem is with that area on Sylvania. It is a low area, and then there's all that asphalt from the DeVeaux shopping village. I think the water from all directions piles into that spot at Buell and Sylvania.
So what's going on with all the flooding around the Westfield Mall? You can't blame that flooding on saturated ground because it's mainly asphalt and concrete, and it's been that way for many years. I wonder if the new mall configuration cause water to drain differently. The city has done a lot of road, curb, and sidewalk work around there over the past two or three years. I think somebody flunked math somewhere along the line.
posted by jr at 07:18 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
So what's going on with all the flooding around the Westfield Mall? You can't blame that flooding on saturated ground because it's mainly asphalt and concrete, and it's been that way for many years. I wonder if the new mall configuration cause water to drain differently. The city has done a lot of road, curb, and sidewalk work around there over the past two or three years. I think somebody flunked math somewhere along the line.
More pavement, less dirt/grass, means the water has to go into a sewer because it can't soak into the ground.
I suppose I should mention SKYWARN spotter training again, so y'alls can get access to eSpotter and report flooding to the NWS.
posted by anonymouscoward at 07:46 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
I'm convinced that the Tifft Ditch, Eisenbaum Ditch, and Shantee Creek "improvements" have made things worse in West Toledo.
I agree that storm today was pretty severe, but it lasted about 20 minutes. This was no "storm of the century" - it was just another strong summer storm.
Yet Harvest near my house was impassable in four spots:
I have lived in the area 16 years, and I cannot remember Harvest flooding like this - certainly not four times in one summer.
posted by historymike at 08:19 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
If you get a Red X on the above post, click here:
Flooded Harvest Lane
Sometimes Blogger gets snooty when an external site hosts a pic posted on Blogger.
posted by historymike at 09:07 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
The Westfield Mall area has been highly developed for many years. I don't see how more pavement exists in that area today than five years ago.
AC, I was tuned into Skywarn this afternoon, but the net was not activated. At least not when the storm was at its worst. Somebody called in to report his weather stats, but the other guy said they weren't taking any info because the NWS didn't ask for it. Maybe that changed later on. I don't know.
"The Northwest Ohio Skywarn Net is activated whenever the National Weather Service issues a Tornado Warning, Tornado Watch, Severe Thunderstorm watch or a Severe Thunderstorm Warning."
The storms started swamping Toledo between 3:40 and 4:00 p.m. with the torrential rainfall part lasting about 10 to 15 minutes. Then over the next two hours, we had intermittent rain that varied in intensity from light to heavy.
Before the storm hit, the only watch or warning for our area that I was aware of was the flash flood warning, which was issued at 3:30 p.m. The NWS did finally issue a severe thunderstorm watch and some warnings but I think it was after the worst had already occurred in Toledo. In fact, the NWS broadcast for our area was knocked off the air for a while around 4:00 p.m.
Radar image when storm was on Toledo's doorstep.
posted by jr at 09:20 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
Rainfall reports via Wunderground for this afternoon's storms:
Toledo Metcalf Airport: 1.35 in
Toledo Express Airport: 1.07 in
Oregon: 0.91 in
East Toledo: 0.71 in
West Toledo: 1.35 in
Perrysburg: 0.51 in
Wood County ARES, Perrysburg: 0.63 in
I'd say most of the rain in West Toledo occurred in a 10 minute period around 4:00 p.m.
posted by jr at 09:46 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
I'm not sure - but it seems to me that the areas I hear discussed as having had storm sewer improvements (big ticket budget items) are the areas that are now flooded. Repeatedly.
What is up with that?!
posted by katie82640 at 10:30 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 14, 2006 #
All those people who have lost property from these floods need to send invoices for the damages in AS their next few sewer fee payments. Don't send the fee; you've already PAID your sewer fees in the form of damaged property. The city now owes YOU.
As each fee-payment period arrives, send in an updated invoice with the fee carefully and clearly marked off the balance. As the invoice becomes zero over time, send an effusive thank-you note for their timely payments. Then resume paying the sewer fees as normal.
I've seen citizen revolts like that in the past, and in my opinion it's the only thing that works with such an arrogant and stubborn political class.
posted by GuestZero at 02:08 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 15, 2006 #
I feel for the folks on Crawford. It's not like they can just say,"screw it, I give up, I'm selling", because nobody is gonna buy there. Their property values might just as well be nothing.
The city sandbagged along Shantee creek in that area, but my son said the water was squirting up from the sewers. Sounds like the creek isn't the problem.
posted by JeepMaker at 10:03 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 15, 2006 #
Pavement is graded to allow for water run off. Engineers develop a per foot set of assumptions (for laying foundation and concrete areas) using factors for the absorption of water by available sewer and accepted ground absorption rates.
No one just pours concrete for a mall or plans a residential building project and doesn't think about water falling out of the sky. Or coming out of toilets/sinks etc.
The recent comments about the ground being unable to take anymore water is actually a true statement.
Development plans encompass both the earth's ability to absorb water in conjunction with available sewer capacity.
Toledo's sewers obviously do not operate as expected - the ground has indeed become soaked and will not accept anymore water until it disperses. This is much slower process than draining with sewers.
The flooding occurred because there was a significant amount of rainfall and the sewers failed to operate as expected.
Once this is addressed, the flooding should stop. The sewers need to be cleaned regularly and inspected. If a choke point is found (Florita St!) then it needs to be widened.
When major rainfall occurs the catch basins must be opened. If the automated gates fail, there is a manual override. I don’t believe this was done.
posted by katie82640 at 01:57 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 15, 2006 #
I'm sharing this because it's sort of on topic and because it's my boyfriend talking about his band's performance tonight. He was a little perturbed by what he saw on the news last night and posted the following as a bulletin on the band's MySpace page:
SHOWMANSHIP!!
Did anyone see yesterday during the flood, the mayor out there in his powder blue, soaking wet shirt, looking like a drowned rat, smiling for the cameras while filling a sand bag? What a showman!!
I challenge him. Come on out to Mickey Finn's tonight and see if The Blue Streaks can outdo the master. I have actually filled sand bags in the army. It is hard work. Not so much the filling but the moving. They are HEAVY. We will work as hard, if not harder, than those good hearted volunteers who built that wall on Crawford St., as a tribute. We will be as soaked as Carty (but from sweat not standing in the rain for 2 mins.) and we will not have aides with dry clothes awaitiing in the car. (Unless someone would like to do that, I'm a med., blue is my best color and I need something sexsexsexyyyyyy!!!)
My heart also goes out to those on Crawford St. There are a lot of us dealing with flooding related issues, but those residents definitely need a break.
posted by valbee at 02:29 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 15, 2006 #
"I feel for the folks on Crawford. Their property values might just as well be nothing."
From July 15 Blade article:
"Dave Worley bought his Crawford home a year ago as an investment. He said that during the week of the June storm, he received notification from the Lucas County auditor that his home jumped in value from $82,600 to $89,700. "It's not sellable. I couldn't sell this place for a song," he said, although his home escaped most of the flood damage."
Back to "saturated grounds." That has to be a name for a coffee shop.
Are the towns along the Maumee and Portage rivers flooded? I don't think so. That may be because those rivers were low before the June monsoon. It just seems to me that if the ground was as saturated as people think, those rivers would be out of their banks, especially with 10+ inches of rain over the past month.
Where is the official statement from the National Weather Service about whether or not the ground is saturated? As soon as Carty made that statement the other day, someone from the media should have checked with the NWS.
I hear about saturated ground in the winter time after several inches of snow and ice have melted from heavy rains. Then more heavy rains move in, and then we get flooding along our rivers.
But as far as I know, the river towns aren't experiencing any flooding are they? Are they sandbagging in Pemberville and Grand Rapids like back in January 2005?
The flooding in Toledo over the past month is called flash flooding. It doesn't matter if the ground is saturated or not. When torrential rain falls at the rate of 1-3 inches per hour for only 10-20 minutes, it's too much too soon for the ground to absorb, so the water starts flowing to wherever. Even if we were bone dry or "normal" for precipitation before Friday's rainstorm, the street flooding would have still occurred.
Yesterday, some areas of Toledo probably got an inch of rain in 15 minutes. No matter how dry the ground is, it wouldn't be able to absord that. Why aren't the drains and sewers able to handle heavy rain in a short amount of time? That's what they are there for.
I don't think we get flooded streets when it rains lightly for several days straight, but that kind of rainfall can cause the rivers to spill over their banks, especially in the winter time.
When the Portage and Maumee rivers flooded towns in January 2005, why weren't Toledo's streets flooded? For one, that type of flooding was not a flash flood. But the ground was definitely saturated at that time. No Toledo street flooding occurred in January 2005 because the runoff was slow and light and spread out over a longer period of time, allowing the infrastructure to handle it.
" At one point, the mayor, soaked and covered with mud, led a prayer huddle calling on God to stop the rain."
Hey, it worked. But now Opal is giving us several days of 90 to 100 degree heat.
More from the Blade story:
"Twenty-thousand sandbags, gasoline-powered pumps, and an emergency brush-clearing effort yesterday helped keep Shantee Creek from overflowing for the fourth time in as many weeks into dozens of homes on Crawford Avenue in West Toledo."
"Bonnie Kalka, 42, of 539 Crawford, accosted Mr. Finkbeiner as he loaded sandbags, accusing him of failing to live up to a pledge from his first mayoral stint to get the creek dredged."
"Mr. Finkbeiner listened to Mrs. Kalka but denied having promised to dredge the creek. He then turned and went back to loading sandbags with other workers as she shouted at him."
Is it possible to find out if Carty or even Ford promised to dredge that creek? When was the last time it was dredged?
"Earlier, at the recommendation of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, city workers removed nine trees from the ditch."
Dredging, maybe a little widening, removing obstructions, sounds like basic maintenance. Are those people with the flooded homes along Shantee Creek victims of a creek being neglected for too long?
posted by jr at 07:03 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 15, 2006 #
I guess I forget everybody didn't hear the residents from that area last week talking for city council. Or the power point presentation.
This drainage ditch, which is very wide and runs for miles, narrows in that area into a TWO INCH pipe which is clogged with debris.
That's what caused their flood. Saw the pictures myself.
posted by katie82640 at 07:32 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 15, 2006 #
jr - the ground where the homes were flooded is saturated because they still have the water in their yards, street, etc... Standing water that hasn't drained yet is still a problem in those areas.
But most of the other areas of the county were dry prior to Friday's rain...I watered my garden twice last week.
posted by MaggieThurber at 10:17 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 15, 2006 #
With the technology Toledo tries to use, I am kind of shocked no media reported this handy item: GoBagger
GoBagger can pack any of the standard burlap or plastic bags used in California to hold back floodwaters. Filling a sandbag is a simple, three-step process: load and grip the sandbag on the back of the GoBagger, scoop sand into the large-mouth front end, lift and release the filled sandbag. Piner even incorporated a design that allows GoBaggers to be stacked, which makes them easier to store. "It's incredible all that goes into something like this," Piner said with a chuckle. And it's still evolving. Pinerworks is working on straps and other accessories that will make it easier to use the GoBagger and switch it from right-side use to left-side use. Piner said the fully evolved version of the GoBagger will probably sell for less than $50.
Be a good idea to have a couple of these on a rack in the garage.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 04:43 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 16, 2006 #
"I feel for the folks on Crawford. Their property values might just as well be nothing."
From July 15 Blade article:
"Dave Worley bought his Crawford home a year ago as an investment. He said that during the week of the June storm, he received notification from the Lucas County auditor that his home jumped in value from $82,600 to $89,700. "It's not sellable. I couldn't sell this place for a song," he said, although his home escaped most of the flood damage."
I was just at a meeting for appraisal increases yesterday at the Jackman Rd Eagles Lodge.
The man behind me lives on Crawford, and said his property value went up $13,000!!!
He says "Ive got water in my basement every time we get 2" of water and theyre telling me my property value is going UP?? And they want MORE tax money from me??
Man, my heart just went out to this guy and all of them there on crawford. I hope he has an assessor come out as soon as possible to get a new valuation.
posted by billy at 06:38 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 16, 2006 #
Was Carty really leading a prayer on Crawford street?He had better be careful, he just might get the A.C.L.U. involved for violating that separation of Church and State thing. LOL!
All kidding aside ,I hope something can be done to help these people that keep having repeated flooding of their homes.This has to be a major inconvenience and expense that most people can't endure even once let alone three to four times.Good luck people.
posted by buckeye277 at 09:05 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 16, 2006 #
Rumor Control
I heard that Carty was out filling sandbags to avoid being in the office where citizens were looking to yell at him for the flooding. True?
posted by GuestZero at 04:59 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 16, 2006 #
"... the ground where the homes were flooded is saturated because they still have the water in their yards, street, etc"
I'm no hydrologist, but based upon what you're describing, the term "saturated" is being misused here. What you're talking about is ponding of water or simply flooded. You're describing water on top of the ground surface, right?
I think "saturated ground" refers to the amount of water beneath the surface. Obviously, any ground that contains surface water is saturated. But when surface water is present, it's also called flooded.
So the issue goes back to why it flooded the first time? The ground wasn't saturated back in June. Was it the storm of the century in June or a breakdown in city infrastructure or a combination of the two?
And what about all of the street flooding elsewhere around the city? That cannot be blamed on saturated ground. Intense rain in a very short amount of time is the igniter. But why are streets with brand new drains/sewers flooding?
posted by jr at 05:49 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 16, 2006 #
jr - you're correct. Having the backups and the flow issues June 21-23 was the first problem. It flooded the areas and left saturated grounds. Two more rains (both less than the original) left more standing water because the backup/flow issues weren't addressed. By the time we had rain last Friday, many areas that had pumped out the standing water still had saturated ground - hence more flooding.
A question many people are asking is 'why do the areas with upgraded sewers have so much flooding?' But the Corp of Engineers is on scene with technical assistance - we're saved!
posted by MaggieThurber at 06:32 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 17, 2006 #
Actually, the Corps of Engineers is very good, especially in this area ... I just wonder why so many of their recommendations weren't made by our city engineers (or maybe they were and no one listened?)
posted by MaggieThurber at 06:35 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 17, 2006 #
I have been very fortunate throughout all of this rain. I live in south Toledo near the swan creek metro park.One of the things that I noticed was my sump pump running frequently.I have had some different critters in my yard latley.My daughters Lab found a large box turtle in our backyard lawn yesterday.I have been seeing more and more frogs and toads also.I have lived in this same house for thirty years and that was the first time we have ever found a turtle.I boxed the poor fella up and took him back to the creek where he won't get cut up by my lawnmower or eaten by my daughters Lab.
posted by buckeye277 at 11:39 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 17, 2006 #
Buckeye, I hope that the recent spate of flooding around the area has sparked your interest in performing periodic checks on your drainage system, particularly your sump pump. There's nothing worse than having the thing fail quietly during dry times, or abruptly during wet times. Added to that, sump pumps don't work when the power is out. I knew someone who lived on Cheltenham who ran into that problem a few years ago ... their sump pump was fine, but then the power failed and they began to flood. Eventually they located a neighbor with a generator, but by then the damage was done.
I lost power again just last night. What is this, Baghdad? Toledo utilities are becoming obviously unstable or unreliable. Government is not only NOT helping but is probably harming the situation by applying then mis-spending taxes. Things like generators, candles, flashlights, wood stoves and the like are becoming necessary items.
posted by GuestZero at 01:22 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 17, 2006 #
Did anyone in east toledo notice any flooding of the streets? I didnt, during the first storm i got a little water in my basement it looked like a small faucet was turned on in about 3 spots (could it be that basement ventilation someone mentioned on another post.) the garage was flodded but thats becasue of the roof. But other than that we didnt even see much standing water in the streets, maybe a little in some spots but for the most part i think e.t. was spared. (or did i not venture out far enough?)
posted by tm at 01:28 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 17, 2006 #
After recently driving over the part of Douglas road that flooded last Friday, that section of road was not part of the new construction project of a couple of years ago. Unless the resident was referring to something else, the flooded section of Douglas looks like old road to me. The obvious new sections of Douglas were high and dry last Friday.
posted by jr at 03:12 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 20, 2006 #
I think it is remarkable how quickly this topic has disappeared. I’ve never lived in a place with such a short memory. The movement on this issue dried up with the rain water.
So – what does this mean? It’s not a topic until another flood happens? What about keeping the pressure on the local politicians?
They still are going to be collecting the improvement fees on your water bills. Mine too. Let’s keep the pressure on.
posted by katie82640 at 10:06 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 21, 2006 #
Another soggy rain event. NWS has issued a flash flood warning for Lucas County until 1:30 a.m. and a flash flood watch will remain in affect until 8:00 a.m. Friday.
Late Thursday night, Toledo Express Airport reported 1.70 inches of rain in 40 minutes. The NWS says another 1 to 3 inches of rain is possible by daybreak.
The blob of rain is moving mainly to the east, so the heavier rain cells moving through Toledo are lined up like a train. The overall rain pattern, however, has weakened some over the past two hours.
posted by jr at 10:08 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
I posted the video of the meeting yesterday. (City Council - addressing the storm sewers and the difference between the waterway project and the sewers among other things).
I came away from the meeting with the understanding that the people responsible for the sewers feel everything is working properly.
They say the sewers are working as expected, they are all cleaned once every three years. ??
www.toledopoliticians.com
posted by katie82640 at 10:13 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006 #
Question for all those out there who can remember the first Finkbeiner administration:
Remember his role in bringing in the new jeep plant, and all the hubbub about eminant domain and all, but do you remember how one man stood up and brought up about the new plant effecting a wetland?
As I recall, Carty went after him with a venom usually only reserved for Mexican restauranteurs at the Erie Street Market.
I think the man was basically given the political back hand and sent back into the shadows...
But now with all the flooding after these hard rains, could it be that the placement of that Jeep plant didn't take proper consideration of area drainage patterns, and could be part of the problem?
posted by billy at 12:24 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006 #
A quote from back in the day:
We basically rearranged the entire city of Toledo so Jeep could fit there, relocating 16 companies from one industrial park to another in the process.
"We had to acquire 88 residential properties, the city had to buy a railyard, hundreds of acres of wetland had to be mitigated - all designed to make room for a 1.2 million square foot facility for Jeep.
Mitigated hundreds of acres of wetlands... Wonder what that means? Wetlands are there, wetlands are wet, because water drains into them from somewhere. Shantie Creek maybe?
whole text:http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?AuthorID=951&id=12023
posted by billy at 12:37 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006 #
"... but do you remember how one man stood up and brought up about the new plant effecting a wetland?"
That would probably be Rick Van Landingham.
And I think because of the small wetland area destroyed by the new Jeep plant, Chrysler had to buy a few thousand acres of land around Sandusky that got handed over to the state to manage as a wildlife area. I'll have to double check that. I'm pretty sure something was gained elsewhere for what was lost in Toledo. But that doesn't help the Toledo area.
posted by jr at 01:26 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006 #
At the time of the Jeep expansion, there were no wetland mitigation banks in Lucas County. Basically, under the mitigation process, if you are able to convince local officials that you need to "destroy" or somehow negatively impact wetlands in a specific area, you can "mitigate" that damage by contributing to expansion or creation of wetlands elsewhere.
So, Jeep, in covering over some of the wetlands along the Ottawa River, had to expand wetlands elsewhere. I believe that jr is right that it was the Sandusky area. Now how creating wetlands in Sandusky (or even in the banks now designated in Lucas County for that matter) can make up for the damage done elsewhere is still an unanswered question.
But I'm not sure that Shantee Creek flows into the Ottawa River and THAT's the $64,000 question....
posted by MaggieThurber at 07:22 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006 #
According to the map below, I do not see Shantee Creek flowing into the Ottawa River.
posted by KraZyKat at 11:23 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006 #
Regional Doppler radar showing more storms headed our way. Probably be here 2-2:30 this afternoon.
posted by McCaskey at 11:53 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006 #
Krazykat, where's that map from? I'd like to see one slide to the right. It'd also interesting how near what's labled the Alexis addition that Shantee creek appears to end, then restart just past benore.
Perhaps it's not Jeep that screwed up things, but Meijer?
And Maggie it IS a question, but if it were only $64,000 it wouldnt be that bad. What its sounding like is its gonna be a TWO HUNDRED MILLION dollar question!
posted by billy at 02:37 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006 #
Billy,
It's a USGS topograpgical map fro a site called Topozone.com
You have a veried of options including map size and resolution.
Also, I found a study from 2004 from the State of Ohio EPA on the Stream and Septic Monitoring for the Maumee river and a study of the Water Resources of Lucas County by the Ohio State University.
Both these sites offer alot of information to disseminate but you may find the reading interesting and useful for discussons on this issue.
posted by KraZyKat at 05:45 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006 #
If I followed the map correctly (Thank you KrazyKat!) it appears as though Shantee Creek runs into Halfway Creek which funnels into the Maumee Bay.
This could be a rather lengthy situation.
posted by DoknowDocare at 06:30 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006 #
Hey KraZyKat - no long so see!!! Welcome back!
Great map - yep...Shantee Creek runs into Halfway Creek which joins with the Ottawa River at the Michigan/Ohio line and then into Maumee Bay.
Billy - you are correct!
posted by MaggieThurber at 07:14 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006 #
Holy Toledo Batman. Now what? I'm absolutely shocked by this...
posted by katie82640 at 12:00 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006 #
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