The only way to rid Westfield of these thugs is to reopen Southwyck.
posted by max at 11:08 A.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
Actually most local politicians ignore the fact that this is what led to Southwyck's decline. The gangs and other undesirables were gathering at the mall and doing things such as this and the local police, businesses, and politicans failed to do anything to prevent it.
If this isn't stopped quickly and fiercely Westfield will go the way of Southwyck and Northtowne. But the mayor doesn't want to hear that type of negative talk.
posted by MikeyA at 11:18 A.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
I think you're absolutely right Mike.
Nip it in the bud or else.
posted by JeepMaker at 12:12 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
Where are the parents of all these kids? They need to be held responsible for this since they let the kids out of their house to "hang out" at the mall thinking they are gonna behave. Ultimately the local media loooooves this type of story and they vamp it up to make it sound like the apocalypse is coming. That's what you get for a "breaking-news story" interupting your favorite program for this crap. But does that put fear in me? Does that discourage me from going to Westfield? No and no, the media needs to report the story to the root of the incident; did the kids fight over the last Chick-fil-a nugget or someone cut in the line? Give us the truth at the least.
Good thing the undercover cop and security was able to contain the situation because IMO this mall is too crowded and too busy which makes every day look like holiday rush. Toledo area can support 3-4 malls and by just having one is not necessarily good for business. Too bad the mall owners do not run their malls like the way its supposed to (focus on the tenants and customers needs not so much worrying about maximzing their lease revenue which is exactly what happened to the death of Southwyck and NorthTowne).
posted by HolyHolyToledo at 02:20 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
Mikey, what does the mayor have to do with this? Last time I checked the mall is a private property and they need to deal with the problem not the mayor. Perhaps the mall should start screening the customers at the entrances and enforce a curfew on minors. This is the mall's responsibility through and through.
posted by HolyHolyToledo at 02:22 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
I'm beginning to question whether the idea of cinemas within a mall is a good idea.
I told people when Westfield was expanded it was dumb to add theaters to an already too-crowded situation. It adds parking problems and overall conjestion and then there's the teenage issue...
Southwyck's decline stemmed from the movie theaters and game room being right out by the front entrance. Packs of unsupervised teenagers milling about and taking over the territory is not what most people want to deal with.
I wish the old Showcase Cinema locations on Secor and Monroe St. could have been converted to the multi cinema-plexes like in Maumee. I never heard of security problems there.
I don't think shopping and theaters are a good mix.
posted by McCaskey at 02:47 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
Mikey, what does the mayor have to do with this? Last time I checked the mall is a private property and they need to deal with the problem not the mayor. Perhaps the mall should start screening the customers at the entrances and enforce a curfew on minors. This is the mall's responsibility through and through.
Your house is private property too. So is the McDonald's down the road, One Seagate Downtown, and the Toledo Zoo. Basically, the only areas that aren't "private property" are public parks, the courthouse, and city buildings. Should the police not respond to problems at these locations as well?
We often talk about the City doing things that will spur economic development. Providing a safe environment to do business is the single most important task the City can undertake. Westfield is a huge economic machine for the City of Toledo, and if the major shopping destination for Northwest Ohio and Southeast Michigan moves to Sylvania or Perrysburg or Holland then Toledo stands to lose a TON of tax money, jobs, and investment.
At peak shopping season there are thousands of people in the facility. I don't know how many officers were in the mall, but there should be a good number there at all times.
posted by HeyHey at 03:10 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
Wait until this ends up back in the neighborhoods.
Ain't no one wanting to be punked in a mall food court, let alone be hauled to the hospital because of it.
Any takers on how long before this escalates into something more tragic?
Where are the parents? The only thing parents are responsible for anymore is making sure their kid has three hots and a cot. The government took the discipline away.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 04:28 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
You can't ask where the parents are.....that's judgemental, presumptuous, and borderline racist if any of these kids were black.
Instead you're supposed to ask what the city government ISN'T doing to keep these kids occupied during all hours of the day. Then you're supposed to demand that government programs be started to get kids off the streets.
posted by HeyHey at 04:52 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
I should have noted on my earlier post there've been two incidents I've witnessed by the Dick's-Cinema entrance. Not all-out brawls but verbal-taunting stuff that escalated into pushing and shoving that would have became worse had security not been nearby.
Both times I had my kids with me; a real pleasant experience had by all.
Maybe added security is the only answer.
Before Westfield got all jazzed up and when it was just the Franklin Park Mall it seemed a lot less congested and alot safer.
posted by McCaskey at 05:00 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
The city suspended student TARTA bus passes to try to stem the tide of teenagers to Southwyck, however it was too late. Shoppers had already found other businesses to patronize. The rest was Southwycks fault. The game room did turn out to be a really bad idea. Westfield is a victim of its own excesses. Turn down the racket and tweak the design for a more mature customer. I've been there twice since the remodel. Couldn't stand it. Now I point and click to shop in my PJ's and I love it. I wonder if they know how many customers they have already disenfranchised? None of it is Carty's problem. How much should the neighborhoods give up in police protection while those same officers are loading paddy wagons at Westfield? Westfield needs to provide more of it's own security force and rely less on the city. They have a responsibility to the city, not the other way around.
posted by holland at 05:07 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
I don't believe the cinema/game room arguement. I've seen many malls with both and they were nice. The problem with Southwyck as I saw it is when I went there I didn't feel safe. I was in there over the summer and even though I was one of few in there I still didn't feel safe.
I also think HeyHey did a good job answering the question HolyHoly posed me. I couldn't have said it better.
posted by MikeyA at 06:32 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
You can't ask where the parents are.....that's judgemental, presumptuous, and borderline racist if any of these kids were black.
What exactly does that mean?
posted by purnhrt at 07:31 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
What exactly does that mean?
I was being sarcastic. Many people in our society, and very possibly the parents of those who were involved, take offense at the idea that it's primarily the parents' responsibility to raise children. Last year after the riots there were meetings upon meetings discussing what the city should do to get kids off the street. Not once did I hear someone get on TV and say, "City programs are nice, but the job of keeping kids from breaking the law rests primarily on the parents." To question where the parents were while their kids grew up would spur many people to say that "we" shouldn't be judging other people or that it's presumptuous that "we" suggest parents be more active in their kids' lives. And I think if any of these kids were black or hispanic (I don't know what race they were to be honest) then calls for "where's the parents?" would likely be considered racially insensitive by some in the community since "we" are largely white.
posted by HeyHey at 08:52 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
heyhey - I have to tell you that a parent can do the best job in the world and then have a child who's trusted to be out for a short while come completely unglued.
I think you're being grossly unfair. Badly behaved children aren't racist. They come in every flavor. And usually when the parents' least expect it.
It used to be that people had enough manners and civic responsibility to offer to help parents when children reached this stage of behavior. Now we see your type of perspective which does nothing but harm the children.
posted by katie82640 at 09:59 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
Badly behaved children aren't racist.
I'm pretty sure (actually positive) I never said badly behaved children were racist. I don't know how you got that out of my post. Go back and re-read what I said. You must have misread something.
There's a big difference between a kid going out with friends one night and having a beer or two and a kid who joins up with 20 of his buds and starts a beat-down (complete with knives!) against 20 other people in the middle of the local mall putting two in the hospital. There's a certain level of rebellion and misbehavior expected by teens, but doing crap like this is way, way, way past expected behavior. There has to be something lacking in their lives......like parental discipline. I put most of the blame on the parents (some will certainly go to society as a whole since we glorify violence and thuggery in much of our entertainment media). But most rests with the parents........not the schools, not the neighbors next door, not the church, and certainly not the city of Toledo for failing to provide activities every waking hour.
I also fail to see how my perspective harms the children. I don't think pushing for parental involvement (through discipline, values, and morals) is going to hurt our children.
posted by HeyHey at 10:50 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
gotoledogo asked... "How could Westfield squash this problem, or is that even possible?"
How about doing like they do at the Philadelphia Eagles games? You have holding cells, a judge, an assistant DA and a public defender right on site. You hand out rough justice right on the spot.
Here in Charlotte we've had major problems at the malls. When the police see the very first sign of a problem brewing, especially in the evening/night hours, they call the public transit system managers and shut down all the bus service to and from the mall areas.
You're right, the public is fickle, once people begin to feel it isn't safe there's nothing you'll be able to do to convince them it is. The middle class is mobile. They'll move on to someplace else.
posted by YakRider at 10:51 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
heyhey said... "I'm pretty sure (actually positive) I never said badly behaved children were racist. I don't know how you got that out of my post. Go back and re-read what I said. You must have misread something."
You didn't say anything wrong.
posted by YakRider at 10:55 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
Katie, I think you missed Heyhey's point.
posted by junta330 at 11:00 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
Nevermind, I see they've taken care of that.
posted by junta330 at 11:00 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
I have a friend who worked at a drug treatment center in the early 90s. He always said that he was going to pass out "two for one coupons" for drug treatment at Southwyck. Whoever said that the decline at Southwyck started with unsupervised teenage kids making the environment unsafe was right on target. I used to live near Southwyck and I didn't like the verbal harrassment that I experienced and the anxiety that I felt going in there and so gradually I stopped going. I know a lot of other people who felt the same way and they put their dollars elsewhere.
I think that Franklin Park can rebound from this, but I think that it will take a "nip this in the bud"/zero tolerance approach. By that, I mean that there ought to be more off-duty police walking patrolling and the slightest misconduct should be addressed immediately.
posted by corky at 01:17 A.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
Another thing that turns a pack of teens into an outright gang war scenario is the programmed reluctance for the surrounding adults to act to stop the violence. Any adult who touches any of these kids during the conflict is almost certainly up for a lawsuit by the opportunist "parents", if not also actual assault charges by the police. We The People have been stopped cold from correcting disorderly (even murderous) conduct in teens. The teens are well aware of that, too. Our society's planned dissolution proceeds apace, therefore.
posted by GuestZero at 06:15 A.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
That's a great point GZ.
Also I believe Katie is right when she says a parent could do everything right and still end up with a out-of-control teen. However, I feel this is not the norm and is farther few and in between than most parents of OOC teens would have us believe. Part of raising a child is raising them within boundaries so they respect boundaries. I have seen many cases of parents who have no boundaries until it's too late and then claim there's nothing they could do. Well they botched the job in the first place.
To insure the safety of the mall-goers though the responsiblity falls directly on the operators of Franklin Park and the TPD. They have an obligation to the citizens of this city to create a safe environment for everyone. Something such as the case this weekend but it should have never been allowed to escalate like it did.
I do not believe the TPD shouldn't have to do this argument. For the exorbitant ammount of taxes Toledo and County citizens deserve more active protection out of them.
posted by MikeyA at 08:54 A.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
They have an obligation to the citizens of this city to create a safe environment for everyone.
The Toledo Police do not have any obligation at all to create a safe environment for the civilians. Neither does any of the other police departments in Ohio. The reasoning here is that the police are law enforcement officers. Their (supposedly) first priority is to enforce the law selectively, as the officer sees fit and to the best of the officer's ability. Correct me if I’m wrong, but from a legal standpoint if the police had a legal or recognized moral obligation to create a safe environment or protect the civilians, the police department could be sued for failing to provide these things. Also, note that the police officer is very likely ignorant or willing to ignore your constitutional rights as the officer sees fit, and there is no immediate protection against this.
If Westfield wanted to eliminate problems like this, natural congregation areas have to go. Southwyck proved that the game room was a real bad idea. The food court is another bad idea. The movie theater should go as well. Of course, none of these things will happen. I predict another Southwyck in the making.
posted by madjack at 09:28 A.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
If Westfield was smart, they would do a few hings:
- hire off duty cops
- deal aggressively with loitering
- break up groups of five or more teens together
Some malls have a "code of conduct" that are really thin veneers for keeping black male teenagers out, but I think the above common sense rules would be helpful to curbing problems without being accused of being racist.
posted by Ace_Face at 10:18 A.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
If this isn't stopped quickly and fiercely Westfield will go the way of Southwyck and Northtowne. But the mayor doesn't want to hear that type of negative talk.
Mikey, what does the mayor have to do with this? Last time I checked the mall is a private property and they need to deal with the problem not the mayor.
And if Westfield goes the way of Southwyck??
Looks like THEN the city wants to get involved.
"The city of Toledo may ask the state for a “slum and blight” designation for the Reynolds Road commercial corridor so it can use tax-increment financing to help fund the planned renovation of Southwyck Shopping Center."
"Tax-Increment financing".... Not 100% up on the ins and outs of it, but it sure looks like people other than the 'private property owner' will be footing the bill...
posted by billy at 12:27 P.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
One thing I think would have "nipped the situation in the bud" would have been to inform the public that this behavior was going on. But in an attempt to keep shoppers in the dark and spending their money (keeping Toledo's economy moving)the powers that be, and especially the NEWSpaper (The Blade)have not provided the information to the public.
I do not shop at the mall but have teenagers who would love to go malling. I do not allow them at the mall unattended and if they go to a movie an adult is lurking close by (either me or another specified adult).
I am horrified that these fights, etc. have been going on at this mall (on at least three occasions) and I did not know it and I don't even shop there! I read at least 9 NEWSpapers a week and I read the Blade everyday. Nowhere has this been reported. I guess this is called damage control.
When there is a cover up of this nature everybody is put at risk. And there was a cover up. Now I wonder what make the incident on Saturday so different that it was publicized.
posted by purnhrt at 01:28 P.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
I liked Sen Dewine
posted by toledophisher at 04:06 P.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
Yeah, billy, what in the hell is "tax-Increment financing"? I read the article several times and I still don't understand.
posted by GuestZero at 05:37 P.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
TIF is a tool to use future gains in taxes to finance the current improvements that will create those gains. When a public project such as a road, school, or hazardous waste cleanup is carried out, there is an increase in the value of surrounding real estate, and often new investment (new or rehabilitated buildings, for example). This increased site value and investment creates more taxable property, which increases tax revenues. The increased tax revenues are the "tax increment". Tax Increment Financing dedicates that increased revenue to finance debt issued to pay for the project. TIF is designed to channel funding toward improvements in distressed or underdeveloped areas where development would not otherwise occur. TIF creates funding for public projects that may otherwise be unaffordable to localities. ~wikipedia
posted by MaggieThurber at 08:22 P.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
TIF creates funding for public projects that may otherwise be unaffordable to localities. ~wikipedia
Except in Toledo where TIF apparently is for funding PRIVATE projects...
Suppose they're even gonna kiss us first this time?
posted by billy at 09:07 P.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
TIF is a tool to use future gains in taxes to finance the current improvements that will create those gains.
The real beauty of using TIF, as far a the politicians are concerned, is that, normally, it allows them to borrow money without getting the approval of the unwashed masses.
Who gets stuck in the event the increased taxes never materialize? Right, the unwashed masses.
posted by YakRider at 10:38 P.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
A similar concept to TIF has been used for decades in the form of the government issuing bonds to pay for infrastructure improvements.
It's also largely the same principle upon which real-estate developers base their business. The capital gains of a property will be larger than the cost of making those gains. For example, if you take an old abandoned house and spend $10,000 on it then it will actually sell for $15,000.
posted by HeyHey at 11:16 P.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
I think a curfew needs to go into effect for unaccompanied kids under 18 in the evening. The mall is overrun with kids there with nothing to do but hang out.
I bought golf jacket for my spouse as a present on Sunday and the clerk had to pat it down to make sure there weren't any stolen items hidden in the sleve, etc. Obviously, the stores are overrun with shoplifters.
What happened to typical high school activities like Friday night dances and basketball games. Well, I don't think TPS has much of a handle on security either... plus teachers won't stay after hours unless being paid premium overtime. I guess we'll all be waiting for the parents to step up to the plate.
My expectations aren't high, look at Southwyck. It would be nice to be proven wrong, as I wait for the new Fallen Timbers Mall to open.
posted by fish4 at 11:57 P.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
plus teachers won't stay after hours unless being paid premium overtime
I don't blame them.
After working a full days shift I sure wouldn't be very likely to volunteer to go back to work for another 4+ hours for free.
Would you put in overtime hours like that without the pay? Or even for just straight time?
I'm not always a big fan of the policies of teachers but I don't blame them (or anyone) for wanting OT when they are putting in the extra hours, after all its not like they don't have families and lives outside of work.
I don't think the city should have to provide security for the mall, the mall should hire more of it's own private security. A curfew on teens without parents in the mall would be a good thing but cutting off bus service, I think would be a mistake.
There maybe be shoppers who depend on the bus that would be stranded not to mention the employees who ride the bus,who would lose time and money because they also depend on the bus and would lose hours and money because they'd have to leave early to catch a bus.
posted by OhioKat at 08:07 A.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
Well, like it or not - Heeeeeeeeeeeeere's Carty!!
"I want it made crystal clear to our police officers and to Westfield Franklin Park mall security officers that the mayor will not tolerate any more unruliness at the Westfield Franklin Park mall," Mr. Finkbeiner stated in a memo.
Last I checked, mall security officers dont work for you Carty....
The mayor also said that he had appointed a task force to assist the mall in clamping down on unruly behavior following a fight in the food court in April, but he said the mall had not taken the task force's recommendations.
Gee - how much did we pay for that? I dont patronize the mall. Why do I have to pay for it?
posted by billy at 09:12 A.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
I thought the camera's at lights were supposed to take care of all of our policing woes? There I go again thinking.
Instead we have more and more red-light cameras, to do nothing more than bring in more money. As a result we have less police out on the streets and in our most public areas. Who wants to bet the crime rate goes up this year?
posted by MikeyA at 10:43 A.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
Instead we have more and more red-light cameras, to do nothing more than bring in more money.
Try heading North on Secor and making a left on to Monroe. Those drivers who remember the area before we had the red light cameras installed can tell you that it was generally a three to four car wait before you could move into the intersection. Now, with the red light cameras working, you see a clear intersection when the light turns green.
The problem with mall security is that the job doesn't pay much, and the people the mall hires are often SWAT team rejects who failed the psychology interview. The security guard has no more authority than a private citizen, although I don't know how many teenagers know that.
Of course, now that Carty has put his foot down we won't have any more problems at the mall. Thank goodness for Carty and his zero tolerance policies!
posted by madjack at 12:37 P.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
Billy, give Carty some credit for knowing the saying about butter and bread. Franklin Park is a large blob of butter on Toledo's retail bread. I expected him to act to protect that blob. I'm sure he knows that teen gang-fights are huge demotivator for shoppers. Additionally, we're in the critical 6 weeks of the retail year.
My cynical side speculates that more officers will be stationed in/around the mall, creating a larger hole elsewhere. The question is: will the mall pay for that?
posted by GuestZero at 01:20 P.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
The mall fight in only an example of the young violence that occurs in the streets during the warm summer months. Until parents are truly held responsible, or there is a way to stop these "thugs", it will continue. It only gets to be newsworthy because Mr. and Mrs. Shoppers gets it thrown in their face.
What's the answer? More guardian angels?? I don't know. I've love to eliminate the threat these kids pose with harsh punishments and holding parents responsible. But how?
posted by tommy1 at 01:24 P.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
GZ is on to something, so send in the Marines. Have the Marines do some urban warfare training at the mall like they have done in downtown Toledo a couple of times. David Gergen said Toledo looks like a war zone, so bring it on.
"The Marines will take over parts of downtown Toledo as sounds of gunfire will echo off buildings when training exercises are conducted."
"Once again, the sound of gunfire will ring through downtown Toledo as Marine Corps Reservists participate in urban training. The Marines will wear desert digital camouflage uniforms, carry rifles, perform foot and motorized patrols, and fire blank ammunition during the exercise."
Not sure if the military excercises at the mall would help or hurt business.
"Twice in the last month 20-30 marine reservists, fully attired in camo, and armed to the teeth with semi-automatic machine guns patrolled the streets of downtown Toledo, OH for an entire weekend. The Blade said they were authorized to fire live blanks at innocent civilians. I first noticed them outside the window of the school where I teach...they walked within feet of a bus stop where two schools worth of students stood confused, scared, and horrified. I took the following photo from my 4th floor window..."
That dude on the bench looks too relaxed, so the military exercise idea at the mall is probably a waste of taxpayer money.
I'm not sure who would win between a crazed shopper forging ahead toward a hot-selling item, teenage thugs in the food court, and the Marines. It would be fun to watch.
posted by jr at 02:09 P.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
gz, billy, yakrider - TIFs are largely misunderstood but vitally important to making projects happen.
As far as private or public goes, in my experience the projects financed are owned by the public and are ancilliary (but essential) to the main project. For instance, re-working roads, utilities, intersections, signals, etc.
As far as the idea of the increments not materializing - there is always risk (that's why we have interest) but from a practical standpoint, I am not sure that has ever happened. The kinds of projects we're talking about here always result in an overwhelmingly positive enhancement to tax revenues that more than cover the cost of the projects (and then continue on for years after).
Effectively, it is the public entity investing your tax dollars and it is a good investment.
posted by babbleman at 03:38 P.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
And a couple more thoughts on risk...
I can't speak for all cases, but again in my experience, in these projects there is a lot more private dollars at risk than public. The level of success (or failure) will be shared, but those who put up the private dollars are going to feel those effects more.
Also, understand that the product of the projects are hard assets that the public entity owns. Ie, roads, intersections, whatever. In the theoretically extreme event that the project is a total failure, you may end up with an intersection expansion that you don't need - but you have the intersection expansion to enjoy nonetheless. It is not like you are giving the money to someone as is sometimes implied.
posted by babbleman at 03:52 P.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
"semi-automatic machine guns", don't you just love the blade and it's oxymorons?
posted by JeepMaker at 04:34 P.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
(Just an 'aside') The weapons pictured are M-4 Carbine Rifles - an 'updated' (shorter/lighter) version of the M-16. HARDLY 'machine guns'.
posted by Plantman at 07:50 P.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
Try heading North on Secor and making a left on to Monroe. Those drivers who remember the area before we had the red light cameras installed can tell you that it was generally a three to four car wait before you could move into the intersection. Now, with the red light cameras working, you see a clear intersection when the light turns green. madjack my point is while your drive may feel safer do you feel safer today than you did before the cameras? Especially since the number of TPD on the streets shrank after the cameras were installed.
posted by MikeyA at 10:21 P.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
"semi-automatic machine guns", don't you just love the blade and it's oxymorons?
I was thinking the same thing. Also notice that the media calls every pistol a "semi-automatic." While technically true, that's a little misleading. Also, remember when VP Cheney shot his lawyer friend in the face and the media immediately called it buckshot? Yeah, if that had been buckshot he probably wouldn't be around. I'm willing to bet these journalist have never held a gun.
I wish I'd have known about those exercises. I would've driven through looking for the marines. It's Grand Theft Auto in real life!
posted by HeyHey at 12:52 A.M. EST on Wed Dec 13, 2006 #
Speaking of gun control, how are we supposed to raise a militia under the second amendment if we don't have access to the same guns as the military? How is said militia supposed to win in the event of a tyranical government (getting there, by the way)? This is why this overturning of Taft's veto today is so wonderful. Sure, I'm a "liberal," but I respect all the amendments equally. I find the second amendment up there with freedom of speech.
posted by junta330 at 01:47 A.M. EST on Wed Dec 13, 2006 #
my point is while your drive may feel safer do you feel safer today than you did before the cameras?
Feeling safer while I drive is not a concern. I feel neither more nor less safe with regards to the presence of red light and traffic cameras. My point is that the red light camera tends to keep other drivers from deliberately running red lights.
Especially since the number of TPD on the streets shrank after the cameras were installed.
Having fewer Toledo police officers on the street is not necessarily a bad thing. The same thing can be said for Ottawa Hills and the city of Sylvania.
posted by madjack at 09:58 A.M. EST on Wed Dec 13, 2006 #
Having fewer Toledo police officers on the street is not necessarily a bad thing. The same thing can be said for Ottawa Hills and the city of Sylvania. Apples and Oranges. Compare Sylvania and Ottawa Hills crime rates to Toledo's.
My point is that the red light camera tends to keep other drivers from deliberately running red lights. This is only one offense out of many that can occur behind the wheel. I felt then and feel now that the camera's are nothing more than a money making tool. More police on the street respond, prevent, and influence many more things than one camera can.
posted by MikeyA at 10:15 A.M. EST on Thu Dec 14, 2006 #
Just in case it hasn't hit the news yet, there was yet another fracas at Franklin Pa....errr...Westfield Mall last night.
So much for the increased security!
posted by Plantman at 09:05 A.M. EST on Wed Dec 27, 2006 #
Syndicate ToledoTalk
