I think a lot of Ohioans are moving to Michigan & other states to get away from Ohio's slow death & small minded thinking. Michigan has better laws, the people aren't so pissy & anal, they seem to have a more 'live & let live' attitude. They also have no-fault insurance which I think makes them worse drivers, but hey, can't win em all. (and Michigan men seem more likely to cut their wives up in little pieces, but win some, lose some). Not all of Michigan is better - Detroit sure isn't, but lots of Michigan has nice big lots to build without being stuck in subdivisions & the nanny mentality. During a recent lengthy cat search, we trecked about Erie, Michigan a good long while & the people there were just so mellow & laid back. Lots of sheds & huge garages per house & cars, boats, snow mobiles & huge wood piles - but more easy going. I imagine with the smoking ban, lots more Ohioans will be moving to Michigan or other states. I know we're thinking about it when it becomes possible.
posted by starling02 at 11:09 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 22, 2007 #
Ohioans are moving to Michigan & other states to get away from Ohio's slow death
If Ohio is dying a slow death then Michigan is dying a fast death. Michigan is worse than Ohio by a long shot. I don't think people are moving to Monroe County because it's in Michigan; they're moving to Monroe County because it's not Toledo.
posted by HeyHey at 11:40 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 22, 2007 #
If Ohio is dying a slow death then Michigan is dying a fast death. Michigan is worse than Ohio by a long shot. I don't think people are moving to Monroe County because it's in Michigan; they're moving to Monroe County because it's not Toledo.
True - the State of Michigan is losing people at a rapid rate. I think Monroe County is an anomaly due to Toledoans looking to move to the 'burbs.
Michigan is losing people at an alarming pace - if I hear the phrase "last one to leave Michigan turn out the lights" one more time, I'll scream. I actually know of several people who moved from Michigan to parts of Ohio other than Toledo recently b/c they had an easier time finding a job in Ohio and they perceived Ohio's economy as being "better." (Which is scary - how bad must it be there if Ohio is considered "better"?) I've always felt like Toledo's economy tended to feel more like Michigan than the rest of the state, which perhaps is why we have it worse here than what it seems like my friends in other parts of the state feel about their regional economy. (Think I mentioned in another thread recently that the Cincy area seems to be doing fairly well.)
Lucas County's population loss can't be blamed on the smoking ban - if that were the case, then you wouldn't be seeing gains in Hancock, Wood, Fulton, and Huron Counties - all under the same statewide law. (Also, Lenawee County was one of the bordering counties in Michigan that had growth, and they are currently proposing their own smoking ban.) I think the population shifts are more based on people looking to get out of the cities - there were pockets of areas even within Lucas County experiencing growth...Whitehouse is up 20.9%, Waterville up 7.5%. That seems to point more towards people just wanting to get out of the more heavily populated areas than anything else.
posted by mom2 at 01:18 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 23, 2007 #
Yeah, OK, there might be some validity to the smoking ban argument; and yeah people do love their wide open spaces ... but honestly the job market here stinks for educated mid-career professionals. Stinks.
And it ain't especially great at the other two ends of the spectrum, either. Anybody with ambition and education who can do so, ought to pack their bags. I've been advised to do so, myself, by two people in the last three days. Took me by surprise at first, and I hate to be a sourpuss, but I guess it just boils down to the fact that on an individual level maybe there are more reasons to leave Toledo than there are to stay.
posted by jmleong at 04:49 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 23, 2007 #
There are good middle-class jobs if you're willing to look and spend the time doing research.
I'm not from Toledo, but moved here a year ago and make 2-3x what I use to make at my previous jobs in other states. Excluding property tax, it's a lot cheaper here as well.
I've lived in WV, OH, and TX (Houston) and Toledo is the best city I've seen when it comes to cost of living, quality of life, and jobs. Trust me it can be a lot worse.
My views might be because I've been places not as well off. Guess if you're from here and accustomed to the boom that Toledo was back in the day, yeah Toledo isn't as great as (from what I hear) it was. But there is a lot of potential here.
On the last note, Go Mudhens! woohoo :) Happy Friday everyone.
posted by jshriver at 01:16 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 23, 2007 #
So what brought you to Toledo tho?
Was it a transfer, or were you looking all over for a job and you found one here?
posted by billy at 02:38 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 23, 2007 #
So what brought you to Toledo tho?
Was it a transfer, or were you looking all over for a job and you found one here?
I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I'll give my answer too...
I moved to Toledo about 6 years ago - was looking all over for a job and found one here. (Technically I should say I was looking all over the Midwest - wanted to stay within reasonable driving distance from my family. But I was glancing here and there at opportunities in other regions.) I'm not likely to move away any time soon - met my husband, got married and started a family since moving here. (My husband is a Toledo native, but had moved away for the better part of a decade...he had only recently moved back to the area around the time that we met here.)
Not sure if the Toledo economy was any better 6 years ago when I moved here, or if I just had blind luck at finding a good job that lured me here?????
posted by mom2 at 03:42 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 23, 2007 #
I was fresh out of college and there's 1 real job in WV (the coal mines). My father lived up here so I came up to visit him and found a job in less than 48 hours. So I moved up here and love it.
I meet a nice girl and as of 3 weeks ago am engaged. So I'm probably bias, Toledo has been good to me.
Just anxious for the weather to finally clear up so I can go fishing and the various beautiful parks.
posted by jshriver at 04:00 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 23, 2007 #
I got out and really won't look back. My reason for leaving? The economy just isn't good. Cost of living is way too high and the job market is pathetic. Last time I was there...a few years ago...job paid 36K a year. Not bad, but not great. I was still having to watch what I spent in order to afford all the bills. After moving, I'm making closer to 90K a year and live in a metro area with one of the 5 lowest costs of living in the nation. Its hard to beat that. Also hard to beat having a house, 10 years old, that is about 2000 sq ft, complete brick exterior, etc...and it only cost me about 110K...definitely less than up there.
Some other differences between here and there...
- No tax on food here.
- No local city tax, move to eliminate state tax as well.
- Property tax is lower than what I paid on a lot/house half the size and 3 times older in Ohio.
- Streets are in relative good shape, totally effective highway/tollway system. Winter clean up is much slower than Toledo, but thats a given.
- Population is growing about 5-10% every 10 years.
- If the city wants to bring in water lines or anything, you DON'T pay for it...they do.
- Jobs are not an issue...very large variety of everything from industry to hi tech to medical research.
- Hard to beat cost of living. I would need to make at least 10% or so more in Toledo to maintain the same quality of life.
- Commute is long here, but the highway system is more effective in covering ALL parts of town. Toledo's is not made for the traffic it handles and the layout is not effective to where you can use it to get across town quickly.
- Transportation overall is better. Local airport has flights to most major cities. Yeah Toledo love Detroit...but what is the point of not using your own airport? Just stupidity if you ask me.
Probably the biggest difference I noticed here is a major lack of recycled politicians. You don't have the same lame money grubbers running for office (or a different office) every couple years. There are actually new faces and if the citizens don't like you, they actually get rid of you and make sure you stay gone. What does Toledo do? They keep the same people in and just move them around every couple of years.
It all comes down to willingness to change and think outside the box. Toledo is definitely an older community so change is harder to push. Just like the new arena...what is the big deal? Do it already. Heck some cities out there actually do creative things like a penny sales tax or something else to raise funds for projects such as this. OH NO NOT A TAX...well you are going to pay for it one way or the other.
You want to fix you city, fix Downtown. Even if it means going through clearing out blocks and starting over. Screw this east side versus Downtown crap. It's all Toledo. You put things where they work best, not where people think they are entitled to something. I mean for real, if things had worked out, the east banks of the Maumee would be an airport...which probably would have been better for the area.
Okay i'm done with my rant.
posted by JustaSooner at 11:53 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 23, 2007 #
Ohio needs to bring its taxes more in line with nearby states, and keep investing in education (especially research projects and such). Ohio is not going to grow like Florida, but it can at least grow as well as Indiana and Illnois, both of which have much lower taxes and friendlier business climates.
posted by paddington at 08:51 A.M. EST on Sat Mar 24, 2007 #
justasooner - where do you live?? I am ready to move where YOU are. (is there a smoking ban?)
posted by starling02 at 07:31 P.M. EST on Sat Mar 24, 2007 #
Oklahoma City. There is a smoking ban for most public places. There are exemptions for bars, speciality shops, and casinos. The new casinos that have gone up in the last couple years all have extremely effective venting systems to where smoke is not a problem at all - its hard to really tell unless you are sitting right next to the person.
I'm definitely not saying the area is perfect, but definitely a different attitude here. They took a dying downtown and now it is the central entertainment district of the area. They are opening about 2 hotels a year now it seems down there. On the south side of the metro they are starting on the largest retail projects in the country...about a million square feet in retail space. Very similar to Levis Commons there, just on a grander scale. Variety though is also the key there, but I really do love the Super Target they put in. The other central piece starting to go in is a new Embassy Suites and convenction center.
Its amazing how a positive attitude and a different approach to things can really help move an area in the right direction.
posted by JustaSooner at 11:10 A.M. EST on Sun Mar 25, 2007 #
Interesting, the same tribe who operates the casinos in OK Cy is the one fighting for the right to open one here...
I pray we dont need or ever have to live thru a tragedy like OK Cy had to open our eyes up, but there's sure as hell SOMEthing that's gotta slam both city govt AND THE CITIZENRY right square upside the head before anything'll ever be done here.
posted by billy at 11:57 A.M. EST on Sun Mar 25, 2007 #
Hey, while we're talkng - how long have you been there? What's crime like in town, pre casino vs post casino?
posted by billy at 12:02 P.M. EST on Sun Mar 25, 2007 #
Billy...your first post...
Actually Oklahoma has roughly 30 some odd tribes, maybe more, that have their own "nations" mixed in amongst the standard cities. The casinos in the OKC metro area are all ran by differing tribes, except for Remington Park with was our horse race track now dubbed a Race-ino. They have all the standard class 3 gambling games...and its improved the race tracks income a ton.
OKC has had its fair share of events that have really molded the type of people they are. Events like that, and the May 3rd 1999 tornadoes (strongest tornado recorded on earth that went through South OKC), really put things into perspective and keep things real. The best thing I've seen though, whenever anything happens...these are the first people you'll see offering help.
Okay second post...
Quick bit of history...its been about 4 or 5 years now since Oklahoma and the Tribes agreed to allowed Class 3 gambling (or exact Vegas style). Since then you have seen the tribes pump tons of money into their gaming operations. One of the new casinos is not far from me, I actually have 2 about 5 miles from my house (one west, one east). The facility is very nice...has one of the largest gaming floors in the country, and created hundreds of new jobs. Other have done the same. Crime impact from these have been next to zero.
Riverwind Casino - Chickasaw Nation - is in Norman (southern OKC suburb...about 20 miles south of the city core) and crime rate there has increased, but not related to the new casino. The biggst reason is more focused on the fact the city has grown from around 90,000 people to nearly 110,000 people in the last 10 years. The other thing to keep in mind is that it is more so a college town due to OU, so the crime is going to be related to that some.
Firelake Grand Casino - Shawnee-Arapaho Tribes, the other major one in the OKC metro, is in Shawnee (about 40 miles east of the city core) hasn't impacted crime rates out there either.
The main thing that I notice here is that the casinos focus on staying neat and clean, and doing what they can to improve the areas around them. Both tribes paid for highway improvements by the casinos, including new roads and interchanges on the interstates.
If you keep and organized control on the placement of casinos and the operators of them, you really can have a successful launch. Toledo is a prime candidate to launch casino gaming in a positive fashion to where it works along with redevelopment of downtown. I would love to see a situation like what OKC did with their dying downtown. Its amazing when you can walk around outside, in a downtown environment, after dark and not worry about a thing. The redeveloped central business district, the Bricktown entertainment district, and just the community's willingness to get behind and do what needs to be done to make things work is why OKC has received so many positive opportunities. One unique one has been hosting the NBA Hornet's franchise for the last two years while New Orleans heals. The sad thing the franchise has been doing better here than there, and they didn't want to go back...but it's NOLA's team, not ours.
You don't hear about major corporate headquarters moving out here, you here about them building new sites to expand. The last two that I have heard about that pulled out of the city were Kerr McGee and Six Flags, Inc. Both of those were due to being acquired by either a larger company or a new investment firm. We did lose the GM Assembly plant here, but gained the Dell OKC campus - which has so far created about 1500 jobs that pay anywhere from 25-30K a year up over 150K a year...not including any management.
Okay thats long enough...but one last observation. One thing I noticed different here than in Toledo...you do not see the local politicians on the news every night. I don't know what it means, but I think it has to say something about your elected officials. Are they in office to do a job, or in office to get camera time so they can get a better job?
posted by JustaSooner at 05:03 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 26, 2007 #
I don't see how Ohio can ever compare with the climates or scenery of states like California or Colorado. Also, the "culture" of California draws a lot of younger people, I think. If you value your family then you become a "stay at home" (even at the expense of career choice). If you are raised to be ambitious then you "go west". If you're into backpacking or mountain climbing Ohio has little to offer (and Toledo even less). You can find a smoky bar anywhere if you're into that (even with Ohio's laws there are still "private clubs" available). Ohio will only become attractive when the "big one" comes, and Indiana becomes beachfront property.
posted by oldsendbrdy at 05:12 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 26, 2007 #
I live in what is referred to as "the Old South End". I was able to retire before I was 60 because I chose to live in a "poor" neighborhood, and was able to pay my house off before I retired to take care of my father. Now I am almost 59, and facing the uncertainty of an "inner" city populated with the impoverished, and young. On my block (400 Chapin St) there are 25 adults, four teenagers, and 4 kids under 10 years old. There are three adults over 75 years (15%), and who rail against all the various changes from new schools ("Why did they close Jones Junior High! I went there, and thought it was wonderful"). We have few children on our block, and of the 25 adults only 10 are under 50 years of age. I know this isn't a scientific sample, but it is my small part of the world, my neighborhood. I wonder why our city government (or perhaps it is the county government) pumps water to outlying areas where the turn-coats move (to get away from the problems of the inner-city), and leave us stranded to pay an increased tax burden from which they benefit. If they want to live outside the city let them sink wells!
posted by oldsendbrdy at 05:27 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 26, 2007 #
" don't see how Ohio can ever compare with the climates or scenery of states like California or Colorado. "
That's the problem. Ohio should be comparing itself with states like Indiana, Pennsylvania, Illnois, and even Kentucky, which all do a much better job of creating job and income growth.
posted by paddington at 07:14 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 29, 2007 #
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