A couple other related Toledo Talk threads:
June 24, 2006 - Blade Blames High Taxes For Ohio Growth Failure that points to a Blade op-ed, which states:
"While some blame the often harsh northern climate, we blame taxes: Ohio remains a high-tax state, and the resultant job loss, worsened by the steady erosion of manufacturing as an economic base, seems unrelenting."
March 22, 2007 - People leaving Lucas County
"The population of Lucas County continues to decline and the bordering counties could be capturing the exodus. Lucas County lost more than 9,500 people between 2000 and last year. The biggest population jump in the region occurred in Monroe County, which gained 9,000 new residents. Experts say the Census numbers reflect a continuing trend in the state: people fleeing urban communities for places with new homes and open spaces."
posted by jr at 08:29 A.M. EST on Thu Jun 28, 2007 #
Also from the Jun 28, 2007 Blade article that started this thread:
Population changes in major Ohio cities from April 1, 2000, to July 1, 2006, according to estimates by the Census Bureau:
• Cleveland: 477,472 residents to 444,313 for a loss of 33,159 (-6.9%).
• Dayton: 166,197 residents to 156,771 for a loss of 9,426 (-5.7%).
• Toledo: 313,782 residents to 298,446 for a loss of 15,336 (-4.9%).
• Akron: 217,094 residents to 209,704 for a loss of 7,390 (-3.4%).
• Cincinnati: 331,283 residents to 332,252 for a gain of 969 (+0.3%).
• Columbus: 712,104 residents to 733,203 for a gain of 21,099 (+3%).
posted by jr at 08:34 A.M. EST on Thu Jun 28, 2007 #
Other news about the 2006 population estimate:
Jun 28, 2007 Boston Globe story:
"In 1950, nearly a fifth of the population lived in the nation's 20 largest cities. In 2006, it was about 1 in 10. Boston is among 16 of the country's 20 largest cities in 1950 that have shrunk, some by a lot. This has happened while the nation's population has nearly doubled, adding about 150 million people."
"Boston lost 210,681 people -- to end up with a population of 590,763 last year. According to census information, Phoenix has overtaken Philadelphia as the nation's fifth largest city. Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Buffalo. have all lost more than half their population in the past half-century. Philadelphia lost nearly a third of its residents."
"Phoenix was barely in the top 100 cities in 1950; it ranked 99th, with about 107,000 people. Last year, it had 1.5 million. Phoenix added 43,000 people from 2005 to 2006, more than any other city, according to Census Bureau estimates. It was followed by San Antonio; Fort Worth, Texas; Houston; and North Las Vegas, Nev."
"New Orleans, which is struggling to rebuild following Hurricane Katrina, lost the most people, about 228,000. The Census Bureau estimated the city's population at 223,400 last year, a little less than half its size before the storm."
Cincinnati Enquirer editorial:
"Cincinnati may successfully challenge today's U.S. Census population update for the city, but that won't correct a national head-counting system full of weaknesses that put chronically undercounted cities such as Cincinnati at a disadvantage. What's needed is a fundamental re-examination of how America conducts the constitutionally mandated "actual enumeration" of its residents."
Houston Chronicle story:
"Six Texas cities were in the top 25 in the U.S, and three, including Houston, were in the top 10, with San Antonio the seventh-largest and Dallas the ninth."
"Nineteen Texas cities, or nearly 20 percent, were among the top 100 fastest-growing cities with populations of at least 100,000 between 2000 and July 1, 2006. McKinney, north of Dallas, ranked No. 1 on that list, nearly doubling its population."
"As of July 1, 2006, Texas edged out California as the state with the largest population growth, gaining 2.7 million people since 2000 while California gained 2.6 million. In that time period, Texas grew at a 12.7 percent rate, compared with California's 8 percent."
"The new population estimates underscored a decades-old trend of escalating population growth in the West and South and declining or stagnant population in the Northeast and Midwest."
Seattle Times story:
"Washington's population continues to slowly increase, growing by more than 100,000 people in the past year. Much of the incoming tide of new residents comes from California. The new population estimate, which the state released Wednesday, says Californians account for up to half of the in-migration."
"About two-thirds of the growth can be attributed to people moving into the state looking for work, said Theresa Lowe, the chief nose-counter for the governor's budget office. Unemployment remains at historic lows."
"Seattle continued to grow at a healthy pace, adding 19,000 residents, the highest number in the state. Seattle grew 3.4 percent to 582,454 people, the 23rd-largest city in the U.S., just ahead of Washington, D.C., and just behind Boston."
Winston-Salem Journal story:
"Charlotte, the state’s largest city, had an estimated population of 630,478 - up 2.3 percent between 2005 and 2006. Raleigh added 13,509 people between 2005 and 2006 for an estimated total of 356,321, an increase of 3.9 percent. Several Raleigh suburbs grew by more than 10 percent from 2005 to 2006. Some Charlotte suburbs grew by more than 7 percent."
"Winston-Salem grew 1.6 percent, up from 1.3 percent between 2004 and 2005. Greensboro’s population was up 1.5 percent from 2005 to 2006, with an estimated population in 2006 of 236,865 - an increase of 3,406 for the year. High Point added 2,500 people from 2005 to 2006 and has grown almost 14 percent since the 2000 census."
Only one city on this list has been estimated to have lost population this decade.
posted by jr at 09:06 A.M. EST on Thu Jun 28, 2007 #
This is just my view of it I may be wrong and feel free to correct me. But isn't this a natural decline with all things being considered.
100 years ago many people were farms, then bigger cities started up and as industry began people started migrating to these huge cities for factory labor. Pittsburgh/Steel, Toledo/Glass, etc.
If the industry was still around like it was then I would expect a population increase, but America isn't a producer anymore. So as factories close shop people are leaving the city for the burbs or smaller towns (or wherever the kind find work).
As for the Mayor's quote "I don't think it's the number. I think it's the quality that you offer in a city"
To me that sounds like "The rich will stay in the city while the poor working class, who are now jobless, will move elsewhere"
A statistic I would like to see is of all of the people who are moving how many are making 50k+ vs jobless or less than $20k
posted by jshriver at 09:21 A.M. EST on Thu Jun 28, 2007 #
As I re-read the above posts they seem to make true what I had mentioned. I've known many people to move south, especially in the carolina's because there is still a good factory economy going there.
Houston is a HUGE factory city, but the job market there is saturated with illegal aliens so wages really suck.
"Why should I pay you $12/hr when I can get an immigrant for $5.15"
I loved Houston while I was there, but getting a job was horrible. Almost no middle class, either college educated white people at the top or a ton of illegals at the bottom. Hard to get a good job there, at a reasonable price.
posted by jshriver at 09:32 A.M. EST on Thu Jun 28, 2007 #
To me that sounds like "The rich will stay in the city while the poor working class, who are now jobless, will move elsewhere"
Unfortunatly, I think you have that backwards. The self-sustaining (I don't like the word rich) and the young will move to the burbs where there is fewer social services. On the other hand, the non-self-sustaining and old stay in the city to take advantage of gov programs.
As the amount of "needy" increase so to does the taxes. The self-sustaining who pay the bills flee to areas where there isn't as much of a burden. Politicians who depend on the poor for votes will continue to give hand-outs until the bank is broke. Then simply repeat this cycle over-and-over again until you get Detroit.
posted by mholdri at 10:20 A.M. EST on Thu Jun 28, 2007 #
"I'm not surprised and I'm not upset," Mr. Finkbeiner said. "I would think eventually we would wind up around, oh, I would say around 240,000 to 275,000, would be my guess."
What does eventually mean to Carty ? Is he talking about a time span of 10, 15 or 25 years ?
posted by WalterAnthony at 10:59 A.M. EST on Thu Jun 28, 2007 #
Unfortunatly (sic), I think you have that backwards. The self-sustaining (I don't like the word rich) and the young will move to the burbs where there is fewer social services. On the other hand, the non-self-sustaining and old stay in the city to take advantage of gov programs.
...
Then simply repeat this cycle over-and-over again until you get Detroit.
I get my insights from generic lowbrow talk radio, too. Unfortunately, I don't take them seriously or listen to them on mute.
Who do you know personally who lives in a place for their good welfare/social services?
No one came to America because the streets were paved with social services. ;p
posted by charlatan at 12:33 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 28, 2007 #
I'm sure Czarty is assuming that of that 240K, about half will be suit-wearing yuppies earning $60K/yr in the marvelous high-tech/knowledge-based paradise designed by that deluded asshole Dan Johnson.
The reality is that the people who leave are those largely most capable of doing so, hence they command a greater economic power per person than those that remain. The upshot of all that is that Czarty's 240K Paradise will be packed with poor people. And yet that fool speaks of jobs, quality, neighborhoods, sports and art. How much of all that is going on in Detroit?
That's the thing that pisses me off the most: We already have a future Toledo directly to the north of us, in the form of Detroit. Yet we consistently pretend that our continued degradation won't follow that path. MADNESS! At least Matt's on target.
posted by GuestZero at 02:40 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 28, 2007 #
charlatan blathered: «Who do you know personally who lives in a place for their good welfare/social services? No one came to America because the streets were paved with social services.»
Apparently you know NOTHING about the Mexican Invasion of California, Arizona and Texas. They're not just here for work. Are you seriously telling me you never heard of the term "anchor baby"? They're also here for free public schools, free health care (go to emergency room now, don't pay later), and free access to all the social support services available for the poor. By all the accounts (which you apparently avoid reading) they are quite skilled at separating we citizens from our tax money.
America is the land just flowing with milk and honey ... as long as you redefine milk as "cash jobs" and honey as "free social services".
posted by GuestZero at 02:46 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 28, 2007 #
Cities that keep themselves limited to a limited number of industries will always fair worse in environments such as the one we are in. Cities that offer low costs of livings, a diversified job market, and an all around higher quality of living will do better.
Unfortunately Toledo and Toledoans are...
1) Too tired to the same tired old politicians, why do you people keep re-electing (or electing to different offices) the same rusty people? They are just padding their pockets with your money and really don't give a rats ass about the community.
2) It's time to invest money in landing other industries to the community. Your auto industry is great, but you will live and die by it. When GM shut down their assembly plant in OKC, almost 6000 people were out of work. However the local economy did not get hit that hard. Development is very vibrant right now and new jobs helped to offset any setbacks.
3) Think outside the box. There are thriving medium sized cities all over the country. Find a couple great examples and steal ideas from them. Toledo is in such a prime location with its water front, they need to take advantage of it.
Personally - I don't know if there will ever be enough money to fix Toledo. You almost have to start in the middle and work out just bulldozing everything and start over.
posted by JustaSooner at 08:59 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 28, 2007 #
JustaSooner:
1. Why? ignorance and an easily duped electorate.
2. Sure, but why will Jeep's newest gas guzzler get fewer MPG's than the current model. Stupidity from Chrysler. [that's why Daimler dumped them]
3. The folks with the new and innovative ideas are stifled by the goons running the city into the ground.
posted by Man_with_the_muck_rake at 07:33 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 29, 2007 #
Credit where it's due: Toledo still offers a low cost of living overall, and for the thrifty among us, you can find a VERY low standard. Those are largely artifacts of a collapsed economy, but some prospective worker or businessman in Des Moines doesn't really know that. So, after a decade or so of all this pushing, Toledo continues to lose industry and population.
It appears that a lower cost of living insufficient to attract business and population to the area.
posted by GuestZero at 07:18 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 29, 2007 #
The problem is clear, the solution is litterally in the end of your finger. A combined effort to vote out the mainstay's, and pressure all summer for the Mayor's resignation will begin the fall of the deathgrip hold on this community.
By ceasing to purchase the Blade* and voting your heart we can break our fall and begin to rebuild.
Why the Blade? Block won't sell it, and they produce a slanted skewed view of the issues and the politicans. They warp the mind because we let them. If they have no income, they will have no paper. Eventually, Block will have to sell or fold. Either way, the other papers in Toledo can quickly fill that void.
The choice is ours, and ours alone. We must take action.
posted by Chad at 07:28 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 29, 2007 #
July 8, 2007 Blade story titled As area cities lose residents,villages and townships surge.
"Toledo’s suburban townships, villages, and counties, meanwhile, have absorbed thousands of new residents over the last seven years, according to estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau. Even Harding Township, so determined to stay rural that it has no convenience stores, has seen people flock to its sandy western Lucas County tracts. Most new housing parcels are carved out of longtime farm properties."
"New annual population estimates from the census bureau show that little Harding Township, with an estimated 37.2 percent population increase since 2000, is the fastest-growing jurisdiction in metropolitan Toledo. Bedford Township, just over the state line in Michigan, has experienced the biggest growth in raw numbers — an estimated 2,745 more people than in 2000. Other area townships also have jumped in population — again, based on census bureau estimates."
"The population estimates show that the residential areas of Toledo, Maumee, and Oregon in Lucas County and Perrysburg and Rossford in Wood County have declined since the last head count. Among the area cities, only Sylvania can boast an increase in population."
"What growth the greater Toledo area has seen in the Census Bureau estimates is in the townships and adjoining counties. Eighteen suburban townships and villages, along with villages such as Waterville, Whitehouse, Berkey, and Holland that are counted under the township, have seen their populations grow by an average of more than 5 percent."
"Population experts point to the decline of Fortune 500 companies that has slowed the flow of new business blood into Toledo, as well as the continuing appeal of sunny states like Florida and Arizona, where golf is played year-round. “Brain drain” continues, as well."
"Toledo is in a race with demographic and economic reality."
"Tuffy Associates Corp. is in the midst of moving its 42-person national headquarters office from 5577 Airport Hwy. in Toledo to 7150 Granite Circle in Sylvania Township. Chief Financial Officer Karen Vellequette said only two employees reside in the city. “The rest of us live in Michigan, Perrysburg, Waterville, the suburbs. Some of them don’t get credit for the [2.25 percent] Toledo [wage] tax,” Ms. Vellequette said. Moving out of Toledo effectively results in a pay raise for most of the firm’s employees. She herself is one of the census statistics, having moved from Point Place to Ida Township, Michigan, five years ago."
posted by jr at 11:36 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 08, 2007 #
A lot of these companies are going to get a harsh wake-up alarm once Toledo's political corruption results in UniGov. The companies will be sucked back into Toledo's taxing authority by one contrivance or another.
Then, companies will start to move en masse to Perrysburg since that's Wood County yet still close enough to service Toledo (hey, it's right down I75!). All this screwball mixing of money and incompetence will take DECADES to resolve.
posted by GuestZero at 07:37 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 08, 2007 #
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