Union chief likely to be Democrats’ chairman - LOL - no conflict of interest there! The 9% of toledo citizens who are union members are happy as hell, while the rest of us will once more have our buttcracks uses as a bike rack...
posted by billy to news at 1:12 P.M. EST(41 Comments)
Comments ...
Just what we need...more Union control in Toledo!
{shudders}
posted by mom2 at 06:01 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 28, 2007 #
Then someone needs to be creative enough to inspire the 91% to shove "it" up their 9% asses.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 04:28 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
The Union influence in Toledo must be broken and reset to reflect the membership vs. population. It is clear to see the negitive influence of the Union/politician intertwind mangle. This will be a sour move on the part of the Democratic Party. If it we're me, I'd look elsewhere for a party chairman.
posted by Chad at 05:03 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
Typical Rust Belt mentality... Put the unions in charge.
This is the prime reason we can't move forward and be progressive. I mean progressive in the true sense of the word - not the definition hijacked by the left.
BrianInFlorida is right. We just have to be more creative...
posted by paulhem at 08:42 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
Democrats have to get over the idea that somebody has to be a either a minority or a union member/supporter to lead or hold an office of substance in their party.
posted by max at 09:17 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
I'm a union member and I wish the union would get the f**k out of politics.
posted by JeepMaker at 10:32 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
In c. 1913 there was a huge strike of coal miners in southern Colorado referred to as the Ludlow Massacre. The coal miners, which were largely southern and eastern European immigrants, formed a union with the backing of a number of socialist organizations (think Mary/Mother Jones) and began an incredibly bloody strike that left many people dead on both sides.
One of the chief complaints of the miners was that the Colorado Fuel & Iron Company had so much power that they controlled every facet of the local/state government.
John J. Rockefeller Jr. described the situation as:
"The Colorado Fuel & Iron Company for many years was accused of being the political dictator of southern Colorado, and in fact was a mighty power in the whole state. When I came here is was said that the C.F. & I voted every man and woman in their employ without any regard to their being naturalized or not; and even their mules, it used to be remarked, were registered, if they were fortunate enough to have names..."
Now I ask, who more closely fits this description in Toledo today, big business (corporations), the average Joe or organized labor? I would contend that organized labor has risen to being, in many ways, the political dictator of Toledo. They do this through their campaign contributions, the forcing of public policy/legislation that solely benefits them and their intimidation of elected officials, their members and average citizens. They've become what they used to fight against.
I don't feel that unchecked power by anyone is healthy for a working representative republic or as some may call it a democracy.
Let's explore the breakdowns of PAC contributions so we can really get an accurate picture of what Matt is talking about.
Marcy Kaptur campaign contributions break down as:
Business $120,900 (43.5%)
Labor $147,500 (53.1%)
Ideological/Single Issue $9,535 (3.4%)
And from your own quoted website, it shows 12 from Labor, 9 from Business. That hardly sounds like a "political dictator" as you claim. Labor certainly has the majority, but it's a quite small majority. Let's take a look at a few other "paid for by labor" Democrats:
Sherrod Brown:
Business $576,087 (41.9%)
Labor $348,400 (25.3%)
Ideological/Single Issue $450,243 (32.8%)
And how about the ever impartial Republican Paul Gillmor?
Business $461,022 (97.3%)
Labor $1,000 (0.2%)
Ideological/Single Issue $12,000 (2.5%)
And, for our Michigan friends, the forever on labor's side Democratic Senator Debbie Stabenow:
Business $1,278,119 (65.5%)
Labor $258,475 (13.2%)
Ideological/Single Issue $415,399 (21.3%)
And John Dingell:
Business $1,014,246 (86.5%)
Labor $146,250 (12.5%)
Ideological/Single Issue $11,485 (1.0%)
Or John Conyers:
Business $281,290 (60.0%)
Labor $169,000 (36.1%)
Ideological/Single Issue $18,385 (3.9%)
The question was asked, who more closely fits the description of C.F. & I. in Toledo today - big business, the average Joe, or organized labor? Matt contends that organized labor is running things with all their campaign cash, but the numbers clearly say otherwise. Marcy Kaptur is viewed as bought and paid for by unions because 53% of her PAC contributions came from labor. That's barely over half! Paul Gillmor with 97% PAC contributions from business is the one we should be worried about.
* facts and figures from www.opensecrets.org
posted by BKerr at 12:32 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
How many people are elected in Toledo without union backing or subservience?
Whose district is Toledo in? Whose district suffers while the other is prospering in comparison and being accused of "poaching"?
posted by mholdri at 01:44 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
The question was asked, who more closely fits the description of C.F. & I. in Toledo today - big business, the average Joe, or organized labor? Matt contends that organized labor is running things with all their campaign cash, but the numbers clearly say otherwise. Marcy Kaptur is viewed as bought and paid for by unions because 53% of her PAC contributions came from labor. That's barely over half!
What is the actual percentage of Toledoans who are part of organized labor? (I know 9% has been cited in this thread, but I'm assuming that was off the cuff and not an official stat.)
53% of a person's campaign contributions coming from organized labor would seem to me to be pretty significant if organized labor actually represented a much smaller percentage of Toledoans.
posted by mom2 at 02:10 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
According to unionstats.com as of 2006 only 13.5% of Toledo's workforce is unionized. This consists of 17.4% of private industry jobs which is represented by a union and 43.4% of all public employees are unionized.
posted by mholdri at 02:21 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
do campaign contributions = being on the contributor's payroll?
Bkerr differentiates big business and union. I say unions are FOR profit entities, hence businesses.
posted by billy at 02:40 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
Marcy Kaptur is viewed as bought and paid for by unions because 53% of her PAC contributions came from labor. That's barely over half!
Marcy is viewed as a socialist first and foremost because of her actions and words. The fact that the majority of her funding comes from socialistic organizations simply highlights it.
posted by billy at 03:00 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
You don't have to be a union member to support the ability to collectively bargain. Nine percent? It's well know that many more employees would join a union if they could. How is this any different from a CEO going to work for a political party, knowing well that he/she would only represent "big business" interests? The only problem with unions in general, is that it's employees are now forced to compete with slave labor from third-world countries, thanks to bogus trade agreements pushed by....you guessed it, "big business" interests.
posted by Chris99 at 03:59 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
Big business sucks...they're theifs taking all of my money and my job away from me. They force me's to pay them and in return give me a service or a product...those bastards! They write me a paycheck, but it aint never big enough. Who do they think they are employin' guys like me, I have a right to a job that pays me enough to have a house, two cars a fishin' boat and a camper... and now theys want me to kick in $10 when I go see the doc, I can't believes it. It's there fault I spent myself into a bunch of debt, I wouldn't be in debt if they paid me more and they didn't charge me's so much for their stuff.
GET OVER YOURSELFS!!!!! YOU SHOULD GET PAID WHAT YOU ARE WORTH AND THE VALUE YOU BRING TO THE COMPANY!!!!
posted by mholdri at 04:57 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
Whoops, "yourselves" see I wouldn't get paid much to be a copywriter...maybe I should become one and get into the International Brotherhood of Copywriters, Local 225 where they would protect my poor spelling/grammer.
posted by mholdri at 05:01 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
GET OVER YOURSELFS!!!!! YOU SHOULD GET PAID WHAT YOU ARE WORTH AND THE VALUE YOU BRING TO THE COMPANY!!!!
So the C-level executives should be paid no more than $500,000 a year including all perks, bonuses, stock options, and so on, yes? I don't see how they're worth more than that or bring in more value to the company, especially the ones who run the company into the ground or are too busy running around playing golf and visiting strip clubs with the corporate jet and corporate credit card....
posted by anonymouscoward at 06:54 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
it's well know that many more employees would join a union if they could.
Bullshit Chris. My wife's team just had a vote on whether or not to go teamster and they sent the union packing.
If you've got facts to back up your opinion I'd love to see them.
posted by billy at 07:08 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
If you've got facts to back up your opinion I'd love to see them.
Sirota good a good job of reminding us how we got minimum wage, employer-paid healthcare, pensions, weekends off, etc....by collective bargaining.
posted by Chris99 at 08:15 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
It's amazing how much class warfare brainwashing has permeated the Toledo culture. How about you concern yourself with improving your lot in life through your own study and self improvement instead of thinking that all of our problems are the result of someone else’s fortune, that because some people have wealth that you have less or with finding ways to obtain someone else’s property. (By the way, that’s called theft)
I swear if you people spent half the time you bellyache trying to better your skill set you might not have a reason to constantly complain.
Damn...it's so frustrating. It's a like a little kid that could have cleaned their room in the hour they spent crying about it.
posted by mholdri at 08:38 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
I think you are confusing collective bargaining with welfare.
posted by Chris99 at 09:29 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
Matt, I'm still awaiting your reply regarding Paul Gillmor's PAC contributions. Surely there must be some reason that it is acceptable for 97% of his money to come from one entity (business) but Kaptur's 53% coming from labor is just dead wrong. So, what is that reason? :)
posted by BKerr at 06:30 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007 #
Sirota good a good job of reminding us how we got minimum wage, employer-paid healthcare, pensions, weekends off, etc....by collective bargaining.
Just because organized labor did good things 50+ years ago doesn't mean that it doesn't overstep its boundaries today.
Do you really think that minimum wage, etc. would just go away if organized labor did?
posted by mom2 at 08:43 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007 #
"business" is not one entity - it's many different entities with different needs.
If you want to look at "Business" as a whole vs "unions" as a whole, I guess you could say that "business" pays almost 100% of everyone's paychecks. "Union" pays just about none.
I'd like my congressman listening to the people who actually 'do' something.
posted by billy at 08:44 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007 #
Just because organized labor did good things 50+ years ago doesn't mean that it doesn't overstep its boundaries today.
True. But I think Sirota's point is that unions can be a positive force for labor.
Do you really think that minimum wage, etc. would just go away if organized labor did?
Do you think companies would "promise" not to use unfair labor practices, if unions went away?
posted by Chris99 at 09:22 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007 #
Do you think companies would "promise" not to use unfair labor practices, if unions went away?
:)
FTR, I don't actually think that unions should go away completely - just be reformed somehow.
I think that the individuals who first supported the organized labor movement in the US to deal with very real and important issues would be disappointed to see some of the nitpicking and waste caused by today's unions.
P.S. Forgot to respond to this earlier...
especially the ones who run the company into the ground or are too busy running around playing golf and visiting strip clubs with the corporate jet and corporate credit card....
Let's not forget that the union officials do the same thing too...and also on the laborers' dime (via union dues)
In an effort to get a little back to the point of this thread, if this city is compromised of 13.5% union, then isnt that minority a wee bit over represented???
posted by billy at 09:33 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007 #
I have worked for unions in the past. Let me say the day I stopped giving my money to them was a day too soon.
I will never belong to a union ever again in my life. Just saying that aloud is a liberating feeling.
posted by MikeyA at 09:54 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007 #
There is a Simpsons scene for every thread....
posted by Ace_Face at 10:19 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007 #
Does billy personally know Mr. Rothenbuhler? How can anyone intelligently comment on someone they do not know? I'm a member of a different union, and I do not know Mr. Rothenbuhler. I am therefore neither happy nor unhappy. I would appreciate it if billy didn't put words in the mouths of others. The only part of that last paragraph I do personally believe, is that billy's buttcrack may indeed be used as a bike rack, and he very well could be speaking from personal experience on that issue! Perhaps the question to ask here is simply; Do you prefer racing tires, or knobby tires"?
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 08:24 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007 #
That Simpsons clip is great!
PS Business is made up of multiple, in fact, countless entities with diverse products and diverse political views. This is because a business can range from a large corporation to a soul proprieter. As many ways as someone can lay out their shingle and there are people willing to pay for that product/service then they are a business.
The same can not be said of organized labor.
posted by mholdri at 11:08 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007 #
As far as unions doing something admirable 50 years ago and being corrupt now, it would seem that the pigs have moved into the farmhouse and the sheep keep shouting "four legs good, two legs bad."
posted by mholdri at 12:01 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007 #
FTR, I don't actually think that unions should go away completely - just be reformed somehow.
Thats why the union members need to attend meetings and activly participate.
Let's not forget that the union officials do the same thing too...and also on the laborers' dime (via union dues)
And they were also tossed out on their rear ends for it too.
As far as unions doing something admirable 50 years ago and being corrupt now,
Offer some proof! I love it when people sit on there high horses complaining about unions especally when they either have no idea how it works or dont activly participate in their own unions.
posted by tm at 06:38 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007 #
How can anyone intelligently comment on someone they do not know?
So have you ever personally met the president? any of the candidates? the governor? Any of the school board members? Any of the council? Carty?
for that matter me??
going with your logic Jeepbm, you'll probably be pretty quiet. That might be a good thing - that way the kool aid you're drinking wont spill out and stain your pretty shirt.
posted by billy at 07:04 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007 #
Here are two examples but one need only look at the graft within the Lucas County Democrat Party in addition to the schemes pulled within city government. We have to put an end to the scheme where the majority of the city's workforce pay igh taxes to support the minority that is unionized government employees.
BLADE STAFF WRITERS - Federal officials are investigating whether a labor union led by Toledo City Councilman Phil Copeland, a Democrat running for Lucas County commissioner, allowed members to spend union funds for personal entertainment.
The U.S. Department of Labor probe into Laborers Local 500 bears the marks of a criminal investigation, not a routine audit.
posted by mholdri at 07:52 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007 #
I think this is great that there are finally people willing to question the actions of their labor union. I think as more people realize that they are paying higher taxes to support their union brothers who work for the city/state to the detriment of their own families we might start seeing more change.
This is a really healthy debate and a good sign. Too much power held by one interest is never a good thing and the City of Toledo has and is suffering from it. Either change will happen or all the smart folks will hit the road for greener pastures while the sheep stick around and watch the city become the next Detroit.
posted by mholdri at 07:57 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007 #
BLADE STAFF WRITERS - Federal officials are investigating whether a labor union led by Toledo City Councilman Phil Copeland, a Democrat running for Lucas County commissioner, allowed members to spend union funds for personal entertainment.
The U.S. Department of Labor probe into Laborers Local 500 bears the marks of a criminal investigation, not a routine audit.
Yes, but you implied when you said this As far as unions doing something admirable 50 years ago and being corrupt now, That ALL unions are corrupt, (that is how i took it anyway) and its just not true. Yes, the former leaders of local 500 did this, but they were kicked out of the union and like you said there is a criminal investigation, as there should be.
But as for toledo, i dont really think that the union involvment/non-involvment really is going to change the fact that carty is an idiot. I want to leave toledo REGARDLESS of the unions.
Too much power held by one interest is never a good thing and the City of Toledo has and is suffering from it.
I can agree to a point but, Mr Rothenbeuler (sp) dosn't represent the city/county unions so i dont think there is a real conflict there, However Sobcziak (sp)I would agree that there is a conflict. But hypotheticly, would you want the CEO of say 5/3 bank running for city council? I sure wouldnt.
posted by tm at 08:56 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007 #
So have you ever personally met the president? any of the candidates? the governor? Any of the school board members? Any of the council? Carty? I have met more than one of the candidates for House and Senate races in Ohio. I also know their positions on issues and their prior voting records, if any. I know something about many people running for offices, or appointed, by the many news articles on their records and positions. I personally know at least one council member, one former council member, and many other regional political figures. I met Carty and shook hands with him one time. I know a little bit about him from what I have read. I still get John Kerry's online newsletter every week. I have met the President of the U.A.W. I have met John Sweeney. I have met and spoken with the former Chief Justice of the Michigan Supreme Court, G. Mennnen Williams. I have a good idea of the relative positions taken by those running for, or appointed, to office. The basic thrust of my statements was to point out that you are appparently judging someone while knowing virtually nothing about their fitness, suitability, or qualifications for the job. You have also failed to answer my question about which bike tire you prefer.
for that matter me??
Judging from your comments, I'd say I have a pretty good grasp of what you're all about.
going with your logic Jeepbm, you'll probably be pretty quiet. That might be a good thing - that way the kool aid you're drinking wont spill out and stain your pretty shirt.
I like kool-aid and grape is my favorite. On a hot day like today I could drink a lot of it! Your ignorant union bashing attempts will be answered from now on. You will hear more should you continue to stand with your mouth agape as your name goes up in lights on toledo talk as you introduce a silly new topic virtually every day. By the way billy, what's your favorite flavor of kool-aid?
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 01:31 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007 #
Hey billy!
Keep up the good work, bro.
Nothing personal to union members, but to me it's just another layer of dangerous bureaucracy that takes my money.
Oh, I almost forgot (sarcasm) unions REPRESENT employees in all negotiations with the employer. And they have done SOOOO well, lately -- well at least at The Blade (/sarcasm)
posted by paulhem at 02:13 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007 #
You go, Bbcmjeep43. Billy's head is up his bike rack. And so are the rest of the capitalistic swine.
Has anyone really looked at the political activity of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce?
posted by Beowulf at 07:49 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007 #
oink, oink, hahahaha
posted by mholdri at 07:19 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 02, 2007 #
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