The smoking ban would not have been so contentious if they had left the bars and bowling alleys alone. They should have been exempt.
It's in the restaurants that smokers - and frankly restaurant owners - have walked all over the non-smokers. I will refrain from embarrassing any restaurant by name (but oh how I would like to), but you had to "love it" when you walked into a downtown restaurant with a few other women and were quickly escorted into the smoking section without being asked if this was ok. You then had to "force" the issue to get seated in the non-smoking area.
Why was this the case? (prior to smoking ban) - simple - the restaurant greeter used to quickly size up the fact that you were a group of (probably) non-powerful women, and they regularly saved the best seats IN THE NON-SMOKING AREAS for (in their opinion) big-spending men. I don't think I'm wrong on this - it happened to me and friends too many times. The docks restaurants pulled this also. At the docks, they also like to ask small women's groups, ad nauseum, if "everything is ok", meaning is your group going to leave soon?
It was insulting and frustrating for groups of non-smoking women to have this happen - and it happened frequently prior to the smoking ban. The smoking areas in restaurants were not popular. The restaurants didn't do anyone any favors by using the above-described practice. In the end, it resulted in bars (which have a particular kind of patron) losing money. As much as I would like to blame big brotherism (and that IS part of the problem I agree) - the smoking ban is largely a result of the fact that restaurants have never taken seriously their obligation to provide smoke-free areas for non-smokers.
posted by edie at 02:25 P.M. EST on Sat Apr 17, 2004 #
Look, let's have some dialogue about the core issues at stake here and leave the personal annoyances out of it.
First, the undermining of, and loss of faith in, the free market. Anyone who supports the smoking ban, if they are honest with themselves (or if they've spent more than the 2 milliseconds that a knee jerk takes thinking about it), will say that legislation is necessary because the free market does not work. Think about that for minute. If that doesn't hit you like a ton of bricks, you might as well stop reading because you're too far gone.
If you are still here, then you know that business is an amazingly flexible and responsive organism of value exchange. If there was market value in smoke free restaurants the market will find it. If the market hasn't found it, unfortunately, the value isn't there.
Second, the expansion of the definition of a "public" place. Every argument I've heard, from both sides, refers, without a second thought, to bars and restaurants as public places. Bars and restaurants are NOT public places. They are private establishments. Smoking has been prohibited for years in public places (government property), and that's fine because government, as an entity with its own property, is completely justified in controlling the activity affecting its property - not to mention the fact that, by extension, the public at large owns that property (that's why they are called public places).
But how did everyone suddenly get brainwashed into thinking that a restaurant is a public place? And that, as a public place, the public at large controls the property, demoting the owner to a mere trustee that administers the will of the public? This continuing encroachment of government into private business is not what a free society is about. It's what socialism is about.
The scary thing is, liberal policy over several generations has so effectively made these re-definitions in our society's consciousness that it has reduced public discourse to me-generation, special interest pissing contests about ridiculously non-existent things such as smokers rights vs. non-smokers rights.
posted by babbleman at 10:00 P.M. EST on Wed Apr 21, 2004 #
It is a no-brainer that this Ban has hurt alot of businesses and people, just drive around and look at the local owned businesses(the few). Notice the Pam Rose Auction signs, new one up at The Trilby Diner on Secor and Alexis. Notice how many armed robberies there are these days, hell it must be legal or they would be doing something about it. I'll bet when I was robbed at gun-point recently, had I offered him a smoke they would have caught him for sure. Something is wrong with the priorities in this po-dunk town, the criminals have become working (so to speak) citizens and the citizens are becoming criminals, tobacco is legal. It is sad when you look at it from a business persons perspective, you have no say. Even the people opposed the ban on the Task Force Board were totally ignored. They were not given a chance to really push their views, so now we had this stupid law shoved down our throats, the main shover, a Perrysburg resident.
posted by memorex at 12:07 P.M. EST on Sat Apr 24, 2004 #
"babble" indeed... looking up the dictionary definition of "dialogue" might be a good starting place for you, if you are actually looking for dialogue, because in your first sentence you tell anyone wanting to "dialogue" with you what they may or may not say...
sorta kinda like the smoking ban. You need to try Control Freaks Anonymous before trying to "dialogue" with anybody.
posted by Guest at 12:51 P.M. EST on Sat Apr 24, 2004 #
Guest, I just re-read my post and, for the life of me, I can't find anything in the first sentence or anywhere else in which I tell the reader what they can or can't say. I am inviting dialogue on the fundamental issues at stake in an attempt to cut through the noise of the ancillary arguments that dominate this issue.
Smokers don't have rights specific to their smoking. Non-smokers don't have rights specific to their non-smoking. Business may or may not be losing revenue as a result of the ban, but it is largely unproven either way. Edie's post weaves in sex discrimination.
While all of this mindless banter rages at the surface, huge undercurrents of social engineering slip by seemingly unnoticed (or at least undiscussed as far as I've seen). What do you think about this, Guest? Please feel free to say whatever you want.
posted by babbleman at 09:28 P.M. EST on Wed Apr 28, 2004 #
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