There are alternatives to each. I'm assuming that you are referring to a private residence in a more rural setting?
1. Recycling and composting can all but eliminate the need for trash pickup. You have to be willing, of course, to periodically drive your recyclables to a collection center. Examine your trash - everything in there has another possible use. Food scraps - pets, wildlife, or compost. Paper/plastic/metals - recycled or reused.
2. Phone line - do you also have a cell phone? Pick one and chuck the other. Or get rid of both. Do you use the phone that much? How many true emergencies does a person really have? Is there a phone nearby that you could access in case of emergency?
3. As ar as the "taxes," that sounds bizarre. My latest SBC bill has a total of $4.04 in taxes and surcharges, which is about 10% of my total bill.
There is also a "federal access charge" of $5.38. This is the money that covers the costs associated with long distance carriers using local lines, monies formerly handled by AT&T when it was a monopoly. You can't get out of this.
posted by historymike at 01:10 P.M. EST on Sun Feb 27, 2005 #
>>Recycling and composting can all but eliminate>>
Unfortunately, to save anything, it would have to eliminate it - there is no break in price for less garbage. I doubt that I could recycle or compost 100%.
>>Phone line - do you also have a cell phone?>>
Yea, but to me, the quality isn't acceptable yet. Frankly, if I had my choice I'd go VOIP but there aren't any vendors with 419 area codes yet. So if I got a number, everyone calling me from Toledo would have to call long distance.
>>As ar as the "taxes," that sounds bizarre.>>
15.73 Residence line
01.25 Access recovery charge
06.50 Interstate Access charge
00.72 Federal excise tax
00.20 Local sales tax (regulated service)
00.94 Ohio state sales tax (regulated service)
00.24 Emergency telephone service
00.57 Federal universal service fee
00.06 Local sales tax (non-regulated service)
00.30 Ohio state sales tax (non-regulated service)
26.91 Total
posted by babbleman at 05:48 P.M. EST on Sun Feb 27, 2005 #
Maybe the access charges are not taxes. If not it would make the service $23.48 and the taxes $3.03 or 13%. Not quite as absurd, but still pretty steep.
posted by babbleman at 05:56 P.M. EST on Sun Feb 27, 2005 #
Babbleman, we live in an age of advanced use of the term "fee". In order to undermine various cost controls, producers use fees to support the price. Just look at mine:
Monthly Service
__line charge 6.70
__non-listed service 2.20
__unlimited residence service 7.55
__federal access charge 5.38
Additions/Changes to Service
__(some pro-rated change) .33
Surcharges and Other Fees
__9-1-1 emergency system billed for Lucas County .12
__federal universal service fee .57
Taxes
__federal at 3%: .69
__sales at 7.25%: 1.66
TOTAL 25.20
What is all that crap? Well, wading through the line items is itself the barrier to the consumer actually understanding his bill, and that's an important line of defense against said consumer whittling it down.
As for your garbage bill and recycling ... well, you're not a slave, are you? If you're not, then you'll find a way to recycle, combined with getting your resulting trash output either taken by another garbage service, or having you take it somewhere else. Don't dismiss the idea of a basement wood-burning stove's ability to do away with some things (like an old lampshade cover I have sitting in my den garbage can right now).
Ohio is gearing up for a massive rape of the consumer vis-a-vis utility rates. It is up to us to see this coming and make preparations. For instance, people should be investigating and installing alternative energy systems in their homes. Wood is a good example. So is conservation.
posted by GuestZero at 12:14 A.M. EST on Mon Feb 28, 2005 #
I think that rape is already happening. Have you looked at your gas bill lately, guestzero?
posted by mike2004 at 06:48 A.M. EST on Mon Feb 28, 2005 #
The real issue appears to me to be that there are way too many kinds of taxes and user's fees, licenses, tolls, etc., yadda, yadda, yadda...
Let's face it, we're being "snookered," in every orifice, by experts at snookering, and they're very good at it.
If you look an average middle income family's finances, and look at it reasonably, you'll probably find that they are currently being taxed at, near, or over the 50% rate already.
Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?
Do you beleive that this will get any better over time without our help (as in a tax revolt)?
I see too da*n much government, too many entitlements, too many that fewer and fewer workers/earners are expected to carry on our financial backs. It cannot continue and I think that most reasonable people can see that.
What to do? I have some ideas that are way too radical for this forum. I've partially expressed them in previous posts. But, I think that it will have to get a whole lot worse before enough of us would be ready to entertain any "radical" solutions that I, or any (many) others would be willing to offer.
So, until things get worse, much worse, I and other's will just have to watch and wait and bide out time...
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 12:52 P.M. EST on Mon Feb 28, 2005 #
High government taxation is a symptom, not the problem itself.
Unfortunately, the previous post is typical of the bambozzling of the middle and lower classes. Many people buy into the idea that the poor are the problem; this is akin to blaming the victim.
The problem is rooted in a globalized corporatocracy, that controls virtually every aspect of human life. Commodities, products, employment, the media...you name it, and a corporation controls it.
The various governmental structures are also tools of the corporatocracy.
The poor are what has been termed the "reserve army of the unemployed" who act as a counterweight to the lower and middle classes.
Hooda, you wouldn't have to "carry" the poor on your back if a) we had a truly progressive tax structure; and/or b)resources were not being hoarded by the elites. Of course, neither of these options would be accepted by the wealthy, so the problem is perpetual under the current forms of economic and social organization.
However, those on any form of public assistance are depicted as "lazy" so that middle America does not focus on the greed of the upper classes.
We live in a society (increasingly global) that values individual aggrandizement, not collective good. Nothing will change as long as we continue to worship the accumulation and hoarding of wealth.
Kneel before the money god, wage slaves!
posted by historymike at 04:27 P.M. EST on Mon Feb 28, 2005 #
Mike2004, the gas bill hasn't bothered me much for several years ... since I began the new way of living: At the moment, it's 63 degrees in my home. I usually treat myself to about 4-8 hours of that, before setting it back to 60 for the remaining sleeping and at-work time.
Believe me, it's no picnic. (My cats also agree.) A housecoat is often required, and slippers have become a necessity upon my wood floors. However, in Ye Olde Dayes (as late as the 1940s), people used to vault themselves out of bed and run in a cloud of breath-vapor to get into their clothes for the day. Their homes were commonly that cold in the winter. It's possible to get used to it.
To top all this off, I have no air conditioning. Whatever you feel outside in the summer is what I feel inside, moderated by smart usage of nighttime air collected by fans. As it is, I can truly say that I only suffer from heat about 1 total week a year. Considering what I save by using no AC at all, that's a good trade for me. (Although, there's nothing bad about getting a spare AC unit and running it for those 4-9 days. The real problem with AC is that people get used to it, and start requiring it for smaller outside high temps.)
I watched gas rates go through the freakin' roof several years ago and vowed not to give in to that form of market extortion. Also, if I have to take the next step (adding a wood stove, etc.), then I can, given all the money I've also saved since I started my Emergency/Austerity Program (step 1 in 1997, and of course step 2 on Sep 12th 2001). I refuse to bankrupted to support a private enterprise that is only working to maximize shareholder ROI. Screw them. I don't live to provide their insatiable needs for profits. I live to live.
Bankrupt the corporations, I say. If we can't teach them the lesson of free men and populism at the ballot box and in the courtroom, then we can try to teach them the lesson at the cash register.
posted by GuestZero at 02:50 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 01, 2005 #
Hooda, if you self-censor yourself ("some ideas that are way too radical for this forum"), don't expect things to get any better. I post on forums like this since it's painfully apparent that viewpoints like mine run afoul of various censoring mechanisms, so I must work positively to overcome such a thicket of restrictions. America is getting to be extremely censorious ... all the while clapping itself on the back for promoting "market choice" and other such crapola for suppressing opinions.
If all citizens have a voice, then use yours. It has been long established that rights not exercised are often taken away. Take yours back.
As for a tax revolt ... egads, the illegal revolt has been here since the 1970s, and there are a great many individuals out there who are playing some scheme or another in ways that will probably shock you.
But that's not the real problem. Numerically and wholly, these folks can't compare to the legalized tax revolt going on amongst the monied crowd. Just as a horrid sampler, go read "Perfectly Legal" by David Cay Johnston. The extent to which corporations and rich men can avoid massive percentages of tax is so large that it shocked even me ... and I had considered myself reasonably educated in things like tax frauds and shelters. The problem is waaaaay beyond that now. We are in a true tax revolt of the elite. In short -- we are doomed. This is yet another Empire suffering the Imperial decay and collapse, essentially right on schedule with all the usual suspects doing the same society-destroying stuff.
posted by GuestZero at 03:12 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 01, 2005 #
GuestZero writes: "...I post on forums like this since it's painfully apparent that viewpoints like mine run afoul of various censoring mechanisms, so I must work positively to overcome such a thicket of restrictions."
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the fact your "viewpoint", as you worded it, doesn't get heard or seen has absolutely nothing to do with "censoring mechanisms", nor is it in any way caused by "such a thicket of restrictions."
The reason you don't feel you're being heard is very simple. You're a well educated person with decent writing skills and a firm grasp on the English language. Unfortunately, you have the rare ability to simultaneously write 5 paragraphs of words, 5 sentences of substance, and 5 syllables of reason.
Judging from your posts here, I will take a stab in the dark and guess you are a victim of extended academic exposure.... you've spent too much time learning about life and too little time living it..... you claim to be liberal, yet feel superior to anyone without a post-doctorate degree.....you do extremely well on standardized tests, but possess very little, if any, common sense..... you hear, but doesnt listen...... you're not blind, but you can't see.
Perhaps a quote from 3 millineums ago - which still holds true today - will clear your vision of the world:
"A fool thinks he knows everything; a wise man realizes he does not."
- Confucius
If not.. maybe the Beatles...eh?:
"...He's as blind as he can be, he sees just what he wants to see, (GuestZero) can you SEE (this) at all?..."
Food for thought.... bon appetite.
posted by TolremApan at 04:57 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 01, 2005 #
More food for thought when youre "Doing My Bills"..... I've figured it out to some extent and, if you own a house, you pay anywhere from 65-70% of your gross income towards taxes, when it's all said and done. You might be doing your bills, but turn around...... you'll see the government is 'doing' you ...... bend over!
posted by TolremApan at 05:13 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 01, 2005 #
It is not even necessary to own a house to pay more than half of your income in taxes. My uncle owns a twelve-unit apartment complex and every time his property taxes are raised, he responds to it by just raising the rents. So even if you are an apartment dweller, you are still getting nailed, just not directly.
posted by mike2004 at 08:24 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 01, 2005 #
"... it's 63 degrees in my home."
For me, 63 degrees would be warm. That would be about the max I'd allow if I could get away with it. When I can, I keep it around 60. Wear a sweatshirt and sweatpants and all is fine. Unfortunately, the two women in our household object to my militant control of the thermostat and demand it be raised a few degrees. Since those two overrule me by a 10-1 count, it's usually a little warmer in the house than I prefer.
posted by jr at 08:37 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 01, 2005 #
Mike2004 writes: "It is not even necessary to own a house to pay more than half of your income in taxes. My uncle owns a twelve-unit apartment complex and every time his property taxes are raised, he responds to it by just raising the rents. So even if you are an apartment dweller, you are still getting nailed, just not directly."
Well, you're correct in the fact that the buck usually gets passed on down the line. I own rental property, and it provides positive cash flow each month... from which taxes are paid, as well. However, very few people own rental property. Those who are landlords usually make some money, but dont forget.... on top of a payment, taxes, insurance, theres the unpredictable upkeep. Having a tenant call at 3 a.m. with some catastrophe, which ends up costing $1000, isn't particularly fun.
No question everyone pays over half of their income to taxes, but I said 65+%.... you cant compare rent being raised $50/month to paying $3,000/year in property taxes... and that doesn't include sewer and water to the tune of $300/yr. - geez, ya'd think they could toss in some H2O free of charge, atleast!
Most people don't realize the amount of taxes they pay, other than income tax... and property tax, if they own a home. For instance.... HALF the cost of a gallon of gas is taxes. But, few people know this because no receipt is given listing how much tax was paid on the gas itself.
Another example is beer, wine, or liquor. About 40% of the pricetag on beer is pre-paid taxes... THEN you have to pay sales tax, TOO. So the total tax is over 50% to the what the initial price when was when it left the brewery. Soft drinks are a little less..... about 40% of the final cost are taxes.
This revalation is basis for much of my political view. Government is the most inefficient way to get anything accomplished. Anything that CAN be privatized SHOULD be privatized. The govt can keep the standard entities...Defense, Police, Fire, etc., for which privatizion would be impractical. But, most thing govt does..... especially local govt... can be contracted out to the private sector. When you have several businesses competing for a contract, the costs will be kept in check.
There's an old joke about Toledo city workers.... but it could be applied to any governmental dept.:
"How many city workers does it take to change a lightbulb? 5..... one to change the bulb, three to turn the chair, and one to go get a couple packs of smokes and a case of Busch."
posted by TolremApan at 07:39 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 01, 2005 #
Better one:
Q: How many CEOs does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Two - one to mix the martinis, and the other to call Consolidated Edison.
Touche.
posted by historymike at 10:58 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 01, 2005 #
Most people don't realize the amount of taxes they pay, other than income tax... and property tax, if they own a home. For instance.... HALF the cost of a gallon of gas is taxes. But, few people know this because no receipt is given listing how much tax was paid on the gas itself.
On one gallon of gas, there are federal, state, and county excise taxes added to the price. After the excise taxes are added, then the sales tax is calculated, meaning you have to pay sales tax on the excise taxes. In the end it comes out close to $.70 a gallon. Not quite half the price of a gallon of gas, but close to it.
posted by mike2004 at 07:34 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 02, 2005 #
Actually, taxes in Ohio work out to about $.40 a gallon, according to the California Energy Commission:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/statistics/gas_taxes_by_state_2002.html
Also, in inflation-adjusted dollars, the gasoline taxes paid by motorists today are much less than many historical periods:
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/Historical%20Trends%20in%20Motor%20Gasoline%20Taxes%201918-2002.pdf
The average from 1930-1970 works out to almost $.60 a gallon in inflation-adjusted dollars.
The only period in which gas taxes were noticeably lower was from 1976-1990, when the average in inflation adjusted dollars was about .37 per gallon. Of course, many of those years saw skyrocketing commodity prices for oil, so there was a disincentive for government to tax an already-pricey commodity.
Motorists should pay taxes on gas to compensate for the wear and tear that they contribute to roads, as well as the pollution that their vehicles produce.
In my humble opinion.
Another working day has ended.
Only the rush hour hell to face
Packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes
Contestants in a suicidal race. (Police, Synchronicity II)
posted by historymike at 08:41 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 02, 2005 #
TolremApan, I strive to learn the accuracy of my own predictions, hence let's apply the Golden Rule to yours:
you are a victim of extended academic exposure
No, a little over 2 years of college.
you've spent too much time learning about life and too little time living it
Yes, I think that's true. I started my social studies in the early 1990s when it became apparent that although technically knowlegable, I knew jack about economics, culture, history, and the whole gamut of necessary citizen understanding. To this day I struggle to study why my country is becoming a Fascist state, and why my fellow citizens sink into acceptance of it all. Note that I started these studies in the 1990s, when the Neo-Liberals took power, and the roots of Fascism were growing throughout the rich soil of American wealth.
you claim to be liberal
Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. You're only half right. Note that I say "liberal", I don't mean "SUV-owning, married-into-wealth, rarely-votes Senator". People like Kerry and Clinton have more than given "liberal" a bad name. I don't know about you, but I suffered immensely in the 1990s, watching my gun rights be whittled away by an uncaring set of "liberals". Those weren't Liberals. Those were elitists who out to attack the working class of America. Hence, they walk step-by-step with the elitist Neo-Conservatives who are carrying on the tradition of destroying the middle class. In my years of social study, I can see that it really IS all about class warfare ... and the American people got lazy, blinked a few times, and are now slaves to their corporate masters.
yet feel superior to anyone without a post-doctorate degree
No. I identify with fellow citizens on nationally-sized issues, and Humanity in general on Humanity-sized issues. It also stands to reason from that, that when an issue comes of of local scope (such as further corporate welfare for O-I), I identify with all Toledoans ... the ones who will really be footing the bills.
I've had to get rid of so-called friends who in their climb of the educational and business ladders, have returned snobbish contempt upon me as just another facet of the larger class war. Having ditched those elitists, I can hardly see that I'm taking on superior airs.
Now that we specifically discuss this, I am receiving an epiphany ... noting that by climbing such ladders, people have climbed in turn out of my life. No one I claim as a friend has at least a 4-yr degree. I used to know such people ... including a theatre post-doc, but after being on the receiving end of his own mini-class-war, I decided that it was better for me to drop such a snob from my life.
By climbing, those people haven't gone onto a better place. I don't feel left behind, rather that I feel forgotten and disrespected, like any unwisely-discarded social root. If anything, the superiority complex has afflicted them, not me.
you do extremely well on standardized tests, but possess very little, if any, common sense
That was probably true circa 1993, but it's exactly the opposite now, and I'm lovin' it. Of course, I stopped taking tests in 1993 or so, hence I wouldn't really know what "standardized tests" mean to me anymore, even if I was ever exposed to them.
You know, it's possible to be socially liberal and still have common sense. It's equally possible to be socially liberal and yet don't expect the public treasury to finance my social plans.
you hear, but doesnt listen...... you're not blind, but you can't see
It's deuced odd, innit, that I undertake online discussions?
TolremApan, you seem to be under the assumption that the citizen scholar is only possible via academia. If so, you're wrong. The era of American yeomen is not obsolete, and we can bring it back.
posted by GuestZero at 02:19 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
Mike2004, I note in contrast that in speaking to some landlords, this "raise the rent" thing has limits. There are apartments downtown that were planned for $650/mo, but only fetch $450/mo now. One landlord (a city waterworks worker) specifically said to me that he found it impossible to raise the rents on his tenants.
Your uncle is able to maintain his margin; good for him. But that's not my understanding of the renting trend.
posted by GuestZero at 02:25 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
...in speaking to some landlords, this "raise the rent" thing has limits...
I think it's called market price :)
In residential rentals, property tax is the number one variable in whether the investment works. When the operating expenses within the market (taxes and utilities) outstrip what people are willing to pay to live there (the market demand) there is a serious problem.
posted by babbleman at 10:39 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 04, 2005 #
Guestzero: it's too bad that you have had such lousy experiences in academia. You have the makings of a good lecturer who could make a difference.
While I do not agree with your take on some issues, you present well-reasoned arguments, and know from whence you speak.
I agree with you that there are, however, plenty of intellectual lightweights who have somehow managed to parrot their way into a PhD.
They give scholarship a bad name.
Despite the academiaphilic types like Chaz, there are still pockets of intelligence in American universities. Don't give up; you may one day find your niche.
And you are absolutely correct that the concept of the citizen scholar is not dead. I know factory workers who meet to discuss Marx, and electricians who read Erasmus and Voltaire.
posted by historymike at 12:33 A.M. EST on Sat Mar 05, 2005 #
Mike2004, I note in contrast that in speaking to some landlords, this "raise the rent" thing has limits. There are apartments downtown that were planned for $650/mo, but only fetch $450/mo now. One landlord (a city waterworks worker) specifically said to me that he found it impossible to raise the rents on his tenants.
Your uncle is able to maintain his margin; good for him. But that's not my understanding of the renting trend.
My uncle doesn’t have properties in Toledo; maybe I should have mentioned that. People that live in Toledo, like myself see our home values going down while the assessed value for property taxes goes way up.
posted by mike2004 at 08:10 A.M. EST on Sat Mar 05, 2005 #
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