How much will the fine be for parking without a permit? I bet that's where the administration is figuring the REAL revenue will be coming from: catching people upon the hook of the law, and letting them wriggle upon it until they pay to be let go.
I went to the festival at Grand Rapids (OH) last fall. The parking spaces nearby had big fee signs posted. So we parked over 1 mile away and hoofed it to the festival. Parking cost? Zero.
Five bucks for a day of parking is too much money. 25 bucks for a year's pass is also too much money, since I'll probably use it at most 4 times, hence over 6 bucks per day of parking.
{sigh} Well, I'm sure Michigan has state parks, so I'll go there (buying MI gas along the way, too). Thanks, Ohio! Instead of reducing spending, you've once again foolishly chosen to tax-fine-fee your way past a budget crunch. Enjoy the loss of my support, suckers.
P.S. Parks don't need "employees". Parks need occasional caretakers. It's only in modern times that we've become obsessed with pervasive and constant monitoring and management of parks and more wilderland spaces. This obsession has to go.
posted by GuestZero at 12:21 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 08, 2005 #
Michigan charges a $3 or $5 per day fee to visit their state parks. In Michigan, you can also by an annual pass for $20 or $25. It's a sticker applied to the windshield. I wonder if that's what Ohio will do for its annual pass? Sometimes we take my wife's car to a state park, so we'll need two passes.
In Michigan, there are toll gates at the entrance of the parks to collect the money or check for the pass. Will Ohio have to build these toll booths and hire people to work them?
Since I spend a lot of time birding at Crane Creek State Park, the $25 pass would be my option.
And this parking fee idea isn't a done deal yet, is it? Someone has just given the OK to implement it. I think Ohio has been talking about a state park fee for a while so this news was expected.
posted by jr at 06:57 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 08, 2005 #
We wouldn't even need caretakers if enough people acted responsibly.
I am often disgusted when I go to one of our outdoor state and national treasures, and see the destruction wrought by the most voracious of earthly pests: human beings.
While hiking at East Bay State Park a few years ago, I came across a good-sized pile of trash (4-5 bags) 20 feet from an access road. It appeared as though the pig who dumped it brought his trash with him while camping. Beautiful!
Not only did Joe Twelve-Pack pilot his 30-gallon-to-the-mile RV to the park and blast his 3,000-watt sound system so that every living being within 1500 yards could hear "Boot Scoot Boogie," he had to heave his garbage out the side door because he was too lazy to find a dumpster.
posted by historymike at 07:08 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 08, 2005 #
Ok, let me see here. The state established state parks so that anybody could enjoy them and took a chunk of money out of our paychecks to pay for them, the idea being that even the poor could enjoy the state parks. Ok, but now we are being charged a politically correct tax, a user fee, to visit said parks. Did our state income and sales taxes go down to compensate the taxpayer and park user for the new cost of increased cost of using the park? Hell no, we are getting screwed, paying for something twice. Just like the Ohio turnpike.
posted by mike2004 at 12:15 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 08, 2005 #
Good point, Mike2004.
Parks are a throwback to the notion of the commons, areas that supposedly belong to everyone.
This process began to accelerate in England in the sixteenth century, with profit-minded individuals figuring out that they could enclose areas that used to be free for common planting, hunting or grazing. The enclosed parcels could then be "sold," and title given to the party with the cash (or political connections).
In this era of hyper-free markets, even the last remaining commons are now "owned" by by the rentier state, and we are charged to use what is, by rights, our to begin with.
How long will it be before the state "sells" our parks to private corporations? We are not far from this point, since many parks already feature some forms of privatization.
Mickey Says Welcome to Maumee Bay-Disney State Park!
Admission: Adults: $15 Children under 12: $10
posted by historymike at 12:45 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 08, 2005 #
Well, the poor can forget about visits to State Parks if this flies. The heretofore public state parks will now be more or less private clubs.
A big part of the problem of the proliferation of all of these new taxes - and that's what they are TAXES... is the media who pretend to report and analyze these punishing government money-grabs. Media types make a lot of money and have no idea that most of the country is still dealing with a recession, with a large part of the former middle class living hand to mouth. In Michigan it's a full-fledged depression. Greenspan lies about the real unemployment rate, which is over 12% nationwide according to experts on the subject (all the official liars count are open claims, not the real number of unemployed) Greenspan, btw, is assigned to protect the interests of his banker bosses. He doesn't work for the American taxpayer, and the Federal Reserve is a privately owned entity which pays taxes, headquartered in Minnesota.
More disheartening than all that even... I listened to a fascinating discussion between Governor Bill Richardson and George Stephanopoulos during which Georgie asked incredulously something like "The economy is strong enough to absorb $60 dollar per barrel crude oil prices isn't it? Richardson said absolutely not, and explained why. But that's the problem with rich reporters explaining American life to Americans who are actually living it. They don't get it. This parking fee idea is disastrous, but I don't hear any reporters saying that. It is the State rewarding the rich and pushing the poor aside. Well at least the well heeled won't have to deal with the great unwashed masses when they are enjoying their state park experience.
Every spare dime of taxpayer money (the government itself having NO MONEY OF ITS OWN) is currently being spent in Iraq. We're screwed and leaders at every level in this country have only ONE solution to every situation and problem - take more of our money. They have no other ideas, period.
posted by edie at 03:26 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 08, 2005 #
Very true about the unemployment rate, Edie.
The government does not count those who have given up looking for a job.
The category is called "Not in the labor force." In 2003, this group totaled some 5 million people:
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat35.pdf
It is a deceptive ruse, but many people fall for it. Just don't count the forlorn and those without hope, right?
The slaughter in Iraq has been very expensive, Edie. Hundreds of billions in direct economic costs are contrasted with tens of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians and 1,510 US troops killed (1685 dead troops in the Coalition of the Killing):
http://icasualties.org/oif/
posted by historymike at 04:46 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 08, 2005 #
In a sense, isn't the $5 fee a tax in itself? In this case, a pay-to-play use tax? The idea being that the park should be supported by those people who frequently use it, not by those who never visit? And isn't this the basic attitude that has led to toll roads, bridge crossing fees, license fees, etc.?
I see this as just another incarnation of the attitude people have about paying taxes on things they don't use.
...I remember an old man who lived down the street from me when I was growing up. He would always gripe when a school levy came around, saying that his tax money shouldn't go to the schools because he didn't have any children and it didn't benefit him.
...it seems this old man is the one setting up our current tax structure...
posted by timault at 04:56 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 08, 2005 #
The part of this deal that irks me is that I pay taxes for, among other things, the maintenance of state parks.
Now I am being required to pay an additional $25 per year (My family and I visit Maumee Bay at least once a month during the warm months, so the annual fee is in order).
Arguably, I could park several miles from the park to save the money, but can I reasonably expect my kids to lug a cooler 3 miles down an access road because Dad wants to prove a point?
Well, okay, I do participate in a parentocracy, so I have that power.... :-}
State parks should be available to all residents without use charges. If we allow this to continue, we'll be paying to use the picnic table at city parks, and be charged to shoot free throws at the court on the elementary school palyground.
The concept of the commons must not be allowed to die.
posted by historymike at 09:14 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 08, 2005 #
OK, I have never understood this "given up looking" phrase... After somewhere between 20 and 26 weeks, unemployment benefits run out. Who said that the unemployed, whether receiving benefits or not, have given up? I've never met anyone who has "given up" looking or applying, for work when unemployed. And "forlorn and without hope"? Huh??? My point is that the economy is so bad that our "employees" (aka the government... frequently people who have never worked in the private sector themselves...) are embarrassed enough about their disastrously poor job performance to find it necessary to lie about the actual numbers to make themselves look good while they mis-spend the money they grab from those who still have gainful employment.
I know lawyers and IT pros who have been unemployed for some time now. They are not "forlorn", just incredibly angry that the actual state of the economy is being lied about, and American taxpayer dollars sent to every country in the world to buy friends and influence for the elite, and to compete with China for mid-east oil, rather than spent wisely on the needs of our own country, for which taxes were instituted in the first place.
Condensed version of above: We currently have so much corruption in high places that our economy is in very real danger of going under.
posted by edie at 04:01 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 09, 2005 #
As to state park fees, apparently 44 other states are already doing this. Ohio is just catching up. It seems my fishing license fee goes up every year, and I'd like to know where that money is actually going. I don't think it's all going where it's suppose to.
I guess this state park fee will be in place by late spring. I'm curious as to how the parks will enforce it.
posted by jr at 05:05 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 09, 2005 #
This is a glass-half-empty/glass-half-full situation.
Should Ohio follow the rest of the pack in privatizing public lands and/or viewing state parks as revenue sources?
Or should Ohio buck this trend and retain the concept of the commons, keeping parks as a public land accessible to everyone without user fees?
Some might argue that "it's only five bucks," but once the precedent is set, the state is in a position to eliminate one of the last vestiges of true community.
posted by historymike at 07:08 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 09, 2005 #
I wonder if the fees have been harmful to the parks and to the people using them in the other 44 states?
I don't like the fee idea, but since I'm at Crane Creek St. Park/Magee Marsh at least 40 times a year, I'm just going to accept the annual fee without much of a gruff. I mean, look how much gas tax I'm paying by driving out there from Toledo. How much of a gallon of gas is tax? 50 cents? Anyone complaining about that?
If this parking "tax" does keep people away from the parks, wouldn't that be a good thing, since humans harm the parks?
posted by jr at 08:00 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 09, 2005 #
1. Like you, I will grumble and pay the fee. It wont break the bank, and I will use it enough that it will probably be only 2-3 bucks a visit for the year.
2. We only gripe about the gas taxes when crude prices rise, and pump prices follow. Then the tax looks a lot more irritating.
3. Interesting take - as a person concerned about the damage that we have and may continue to be doing to the Earth's ecosphere, I think that perhaps a few less humans in the park isn't so bad. Maybe the hike in fees will send some of the more obnoxious visitors back to the city. Then again, maybe Joe 4-Wheeler will just blaze through the woods to get in free.
posted by historymike at 11:25 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 09, 2005 #
The DNR parking fee proposal:
"Ohio State Parks are the third most-visited state park system in the country. Only California and New York average more visitors each year to their state parks. In 1997, Ohio State Parks became the first state park system to receive the Gold Medal for Excellence from the National Recreation and Park Association as the top state park system in the country."
"Because each of Ohio’s state parks is unique in character and layout, administration of the Parks Pride Pass will vary from facility to facility. At the busiest locations, park staff will have passes available for motorists as they enter designated parking areas."
"At less-busy parks and times, motorists will use an “honor system” drop box to obtain a pass. Parking passes will not be necessary for walk-in visitors."
Hah! There are no full-time employees at Crane Creek State Park. The slobs who trash the place aren't likely to partake in the honor system, so they'll still get in for free. No need to be concerned about the state park fee.
PROPOSED DAILY PASS per motor vehicle
$5 resident
$6 non-resident
$4 Golden Buckeye
ANNUAL PASS per motor vehicle
$25 resident*
$30 non-resident
$20 Golden Buckeye
*a second annual pass for residents costs $20
"While general revenue funds and user fees generated from camping, boat dock rentals and concessionaire contracts have traditionally supported the cost of operating the state parks, those sources are no longer sufficient to ensure the standard of excellence for which Ohio State Parks are known."
"Faced with increasingly difficult budget challenges and cutbacks in state funding over the last five years, the park system has responded with significant reductions in staffing, maintenance and visitor services. For example, Ohio State Parks employed 607 full-time staff members in 2000, but cut that number to 490 employees in 2004. Only 42 of the system’s 74 parks now have on-site managers."
posted by jr at 10:06 A.M. EST on Sat Mar 12, 2005 #
Well, this seems like an ideal area for environmentalists and other nature lovers to volunteer their time and money by keeping the parks safe and clean etc.
Alternatively, what this tells me is that we have too many state parks. The state should either sell the land if feasible or if not cordon it off for use at some future time.
swd
posted by swd at 02:53 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 18, 2005 #
The park is a holdover of the commons, or land that is set aside for use by the community at large.
The commons rose in response to the late medieval movement in England to enclose, parcel, and sell land. However, the commons themselves began to be parceled and sold in sixteenth century England.
Parks are one of the very few places in this society that have largely escaped the American obsession with privatization. It would be a sad day indeed if state parks were sold to developers.
posted by historymike at 04:23 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 18, 2005 #
I wonder how many households own one or more of the following: cell phones, cable TV, Internet access, video game systems? Do you think a household with one or more of these items spends more than $25 per year? I'm going to make a wild guess and say the state parks existed before these technologies came onto the scene. People will drop three bills for a fancy coffee then bitch about the state park fee. Doesn't make sense to me.
If Ohio's state park system was in shambles, then there would be a right to complain. But our state parks are heavily used and are still in fine condition. Time to cough up a little coin.
And us "envrionmentalists" due volunteer our time to various nature areas. But when it comes to policing a state park that I'm camping at, I'd prefer someone with training, instead of an accountant from a local business.
posted by jr at 05:41 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 18, 2005 #
Ohio's biggest looming crisis in decades may have been averted.
"Ohio state park visitors might not have to pay to park their cars. Instead of parking fees, House leaders have discussed moving about $8 million from a litter-control and recycling program to the parks."
I'm relieved. What a load off my mind. The poor and downtrodden will still be able to attend our state parks as long as they buy a wad of lottery tickets on their way home.
In the March 18 issue of the Ottawa County paper called The Exponent:, "State Senator Eric Fingerhut (D) said in a recent letter the new fees will inadvertently hurt lower income families."
How can so many lower income families afford to participate in government-sponsored gambling if they can't afford a $25 per year parking pass? Or was Fingerhut's playing of the "poor-card" just standard operating political procedure? It's the latter.
posted by jr at 04:45 P.M. EST on Sun Apr 03, 2005 #
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