Weak Concerns:
* barks when we're not home. - I would use a 'bark box'. Basically it a black box that cost around $25 from Meijers that squeals whenever the dog barks. Don't use it for to to long because the will eventually get desensitized to it.
* Seems VERY needy. While I am glad he's cuddly and affectionate, I worry that it might not be healthy. He always has to be touched. - It sounds like he's been a kennel almost all of his life. Some of that will go away with time. But you are going to have work with him and let him know when its appropriate to get/receive and show affection. It maybe a symptom that he wants to be dominant by forcing you give him the attention he wants when he wants it.
* Is house broken, but has to mark everything outside. - Thats usually caused from not being fixed soon enough. That will lessen over time and with training but will never totally go away.
Strong Concerns:
* Is extremely aggressive. Tries to attack any dog that gets near. So we can't take him to any parks or family dogs. - That will take a *lot* of training and some socialization. Seek a good trainer for proper socialization, don't just take him to a class and hope for the best.
* Barks, snarls, shows teeth to family members. He peed on my dad twice this weekend while visiting and snarled almost every time he was around. Also my mom. - Sound like a typical mistreated dog. He thinks he has to show everyone he's boss and acting out against anyone that resembles those that mistreated him. Again training and socialization are the only two things you can do.
* Seems to flip flop. With my mom he would lay belly up and cute, then a second later would be snarling. - He likes your mom but he doesn't totally feel safe around her. So if she makes any sudden move he is going to let her know he doesn't like it try to intimidate her into doing what he wants.
* He seems to love kids. Until we noticed his temper/anger problem he was very playful with family kids. But now I'm afraid to take him around anyone. - From your description I would be worried about kids. I may worry that he could become to protective of the kids, thinking they are his pack mate and not let a parent get near them.
All it all you have an abused, under socialized dog. Did the place you got him from do any kind of temperament testing? It will take about 6 months to a year of *intensive* training to get him to were you want him to be. He will always be a bit aggressive, its just a matter of directing that aggression into play.
I recommend Gardner Dog Training. They do in home behavior training and they are reasonably priced.
http://www.gardnerdogtraining.com/
posted by tekrat at 11:11 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
Are you crating him when you are not home? Do you leave the gate open when you are home?
Do you walk him daily? That breed needs lots of exercise.
Are you rewarding good behavior and verbally disciplining him for bad behavior? Not to sound like a Dr. Phil for canines, but you really need to spend quality time with them, always being the trainer at first.
Is he fixed? He should be. That will help with several issues if he is not.
There is a trainer who guarantees her work off Corduroy Road, I think it was, that was cheaper than 1000. I can find her name if you want. She takes your dog for ten days. I was amazed at the dogs she had there and how well they behaved.
Just like raising a child, you must be consistent and constant with your training.
Lastly, if you cannot possibly do anything with the dog, you have other options other than putting it down.
posted by Ryan at 11:18 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
The problems while you are gone sound like separation anxiety. Crate train the dog, it will give the dog a "special place" of their own. When he goes in he'll feel secure.
Regarding barking in general: Get a cheap spray bottle and fill it with the cheapest lysterine type mouthwash you can. Whenever the dog barks say "quiet" and spray them in the mouth. You may need to leave the leash on the dog so you can catch him as you don't want a big pause between the command and the spray. Plus, once the dog learns what that spray bottle is, he'll try to run. Keep at it and you'll be fine.
Regarding aggression against other dogs. You probably need to socialize the dog. While you can do it on your own, I recommend a dog trainer. Most likely the aggression is fear, not a desire to hurt.
Contact Gardner. They helped us out a lot. I recommend starting with a couple sessions at home. They helped our dogs with only 2 sessions, so while the cost wasn't cheap, two lessons was all it took (keep in mind the lessons were followed by work by us at home). I'd also suggest puppy preschool or regular obedience classes. Again, Gardner will help with this. They are the only people my vet recommends.
posted by taliesin52 at 11:48 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
This is definitely a salvagable animal. There are many other good trainers and classes. Please ask your vet for a reccomendation. The first thing you must do is to establish human dominance. Until he understands that he will get no attention unless he is behaving apropriately he will be the pack leader and the agression will only escalate. Get a crate and use it when you are not home. Exercise the dog daily until he is good and tired. Pay no attention to the dog AT ALL when you first come into the house. This includes all family and friends. The first moment he is quiet, then acknowledge him. Subscribe to no training method that uses force. It is imperative that you get your vet involved early. This is a confused animal who doesn't really know who's boss and what is expected of him. All can be accomplished with firm kindness. Dont give up. When this dog understands that you are the pack leader first and a source of affection, safety and food second, you will have a bond like no other.
posted by holland at 01:13 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
Thank you all for your suggestions so far :) I want to add some more details.
We do crate him, it's a reasonable size cage (takes 1/8 of my office room). We usually only do this while we're at work, ranging from 3-8 hours a day. Though he rarely has to be alone for 8 hours, and in that case I go home for lunch to walk him and play a little.
I do walk him a lot, probably 6+ times a day during the week and during the weekend I take him almost everywhere with me driving. (Unless I'm going to be out of the car longer than 15min) then I leave him home. I like this as it encourages me to exercise more and I like walking him. He also sniffed out some rasberry bushes for me.
He seems to listen to me and my girl. He'll sit, stop and lay down when I tell him. But he often lays down belly up or crawls on his belly with his head down, when I yell.
I'm going to call Gardner today, I've also called
"A Promised Friend" as that is who my vet recommended and is kinda close to where I live.
I just don't want to have to get rid of him, but can't have a mean dog. He's really loving and good 95% of the time, just that 5% is scary.
posted by jshriver at 02:04 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
jshriver - keep in mind too, that if you've only had this dog for 3 weeks or so - this is all very new still to the dog. Barking when left alone in a new to the dog home, shows he's just insecure & wants you back. I've never used a crate, but have heard good things about them. When I was a kid, we had a new adult dashhound that had been abused, and once, in the first couple of months when he was left alone in the basement, he'd pulled up all the carpeting, torn to shreds (it wasn't typical wall to wall - but a large area rug). We figured the man who'd owned him before us had beaten him with a broom because anytime you picked up a broom, this dog would growl, snarl, attack. The good news, is that the longer this dog lives in the house with you, learns you'll come back every day, the barking will lessen & eventually stop as he gets older & more secure.
We adopted a boxer mix from Paws & Whiskers (weak questionable moment of mine) about 2 years ago. We already have a great Australian Shepard (great breed - doesn't bark much, highly intelligent, good temperment, gentle, playful), and each dog tried to be the dominant dog - which resulted in more than a few dog fights. 1 1/2 years ago, my husband was sneaking up behind me to pretend scare me with an imaginary spider & I jumped & yelled, causing our Australian Shepard to leap to my defense (just barking, she's never snapped or growled at people). But it set off the newer dog, thinking she had to protect ME from the Australian Shepard, the dogs got into a fight. My husband, trying to break it up (don't ever try to break up a dog fight), and got nipped on the arm (don't know which dog did it), bled a LOT, and bought a trip to the ER for a tetanus shot & butterfly. (wasn't severe, just very deep & wouldn't stop spurting blood very high). What struck me about that incident, is that as soon as the dogs saw my husband sit down, bleeding profusely, the dogs just sat down & stared. They both looked guilty & frightened. (we've never, ever laid a hand to any of our dogs). Needless to say, that was the last dog fight they've gotten into. But as soon as you go to ER with a dog bite, by law, they have to report it - one strike against the dog, in case of future bites.
There are also collars that train dogs to stop barking. I'm not a fan of training collars - the probes can literally burn into the dogs skin. I suggest anybody who wants to use one of these collars, to put it on themselves, to see what that shock feels like before you put it on the dog. My son's ex wife (his girlfriend at the time) used one of those collars to train their dog - only took a few months of using it, then she took the collar off for good. Now, all the dog has to do is see that collar & she behaves. If you use one, please don't make it a forever thing - limit it's use to only a couple of months - preferably less. My son also tried the barking training counter box & said it helped some of their dogs stop barking. I may get one for this stupid boxer mix - she barks at everything.
When we first brought home this boxer mix - she would be very timid - it was clear she'd been badly abused. She tends to jump up on people (boxers do). I was told when they jump up on you, to raise your knee high to block them, and they'll stop. (haven't tried it, but I should - she doesnt jump up on me). The only people this dog has ever growled at, were 2 different buckeye cable guys on 2 separate occasions. Dogs can sense if somebody is a threat, or if they're afraid of dogs. Dogs are also good judges of character in people - if your dog just hates a person, there's probably a good reason why.
posted by starling02 at 03:06 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
If you are willing to go through some training (and it sounds like you are) I know you will be just fine.
I don’t know how big that cage is, but it should only be big enough for him to stand up and turn around in. If they are too much bigger than the dog, they don’t get the safe and sheltered feeling that they would with one fit to their size. This calms them and in a lot of cases gives them someplace to go whenever upset on their own.
I went through a real time with mine when he was a puppy until about 6 months or so. He hated cages. He broke off all for tips of his fang teeth chewing on them. I went through two metal cages that he completely destroyed. I tried everything and he could get out. I came home from work one day to find that not only did he get out of the cage, but also the basement. He then popped a screen open and was waiting for me on the back stoop. Thankfully I always keep my gate shut so he was safe, but still.
posted by Ryan at 03:06 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
I forgot to add - ever since that last dog fight, our two dogs are now great friends, won't even snarl over food.
I hate the idea of caging dogs - but do understand that they can play an important role in training. But dogs aren't stupid - they learn fast that they go to the cage when you go to work. The barking my get worse in a cage possibly. (also keep in mind, this dog was most likely in a cage before you got it - not good memories). Greyhounds seem to be a breed that likes the security of an open cage to go into, although we never used one with ours. But a lot of people have good luck in training new dogs with cages. Just so it doesn't become a forever thing - only till it's trained.
Once this dog has learned that you will come home everyday, always, he will settle down. I'd also suggest you socialize him with different family members - but not all of them in the room or house at once. Maybe ask one or two to come over at a time, spend an hour or two, to just sit, let the dog sniff & come to them. Tell them no jerky or fast movements, calm voices - once the dog has learned who all of them are, and establishes trust in them, that they won't hurt him, he'll calm down. I'd caution any kids to be careful around him, until he's socialized with them. I doubt you'll ever have a dog that won't let you near your kids - never heard of that. I just wouldn't leave the kids alone with the dog till the dog has settled in longer. It goes without saying to use extra caution with kids under age 10.
posted by starling02 at 03:20 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
The bark collars never works well unless you're right there to help re-enforce it. Also the instruction say never to leave them on for more then a couple of hours so you shouldn't use it while you're at work. Tell him no if he barks when you leave the room and reward him if he's quiet for a few minutes.
A cage can actually be to big. If the dog has enough room to easily turn around and can sit up without having it hitting to roof your fine. Never reach into a crate. That is the dog's domain. If you have to remove something from the cage take the dog out first.
Give the dog some alone time. I mean let the pup run in the yard alone if thats possible so that it can develop coping skills for those times it's alone. If you can't let him run outside unattended then put him outside in his crate. At least while he's outside he can see what there is and isn't to bark at.
posted by tekrat at 03:33 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
That's good advice about bark collars - I've never used them, but know of dogs that wear them constantly. But you're right - unless the owner is there to 'zap' it, the collar is useless. Another thing to remember, is the house is new to the dog still - in time, he'll become accustomed to the noises of the house & neighborhood. (my dogs stopped barking at the mailman - but will bark at a UPS guy). My mutt dog will still bark at kids playing across the street. Usually when our dogs bark, it's to let us know (to warn us) of somebody they think will approach the house. Even if they're just walking down the street. But the up side of that, is that a burgler will think twice before breaking into our house. Dogs are great security. This dog just needs the security of learning that you'll still be there, that you'll come home. And he has to get socialized to people who'll be in your house & yard. It takes time is all. Three weeks isn't nearly long enough, to expect him to have adjusted. I've never used a trainer - but still may. That Guardian sounds excellent.
Having said all this - it's important to mention too, I think, that IF it gets to the point, after you've worked hard & long to train this dog, if he still snaps & growls at people, you may have to re think your plans with it. This is a last resort to me. I raised all 3 of my kids, to know, that when they take in an animal, it is of the LIFE of that animal - good or bad. No excuses. I had a neighbor years back who'd adopt a dog, then when it became an inconvenience, she'd get rid of it (humane society), only to keep repeating the pattern. The only excuses I can think of for getting rid of a dog or cat you've taken in, is if it's become so ill or is so much pain, there's no better option; or, if it's a repeat serious biter. I don't mean the once in a while nip the first year it's in your house - I mean, serious dog bites. As soon as a dog bite results in a visit to a doctor or the ER, they file a report of this dog, right down to it's age, name, breed, etc. If it gets reported again, or repeatedly, as biting, they can seize the dog. I would never advise anybody to keep a dog that is a serious unpredictable biter. The last thing you need is a lawsuit because your dog disfigured a child's face. I considered deleting that last part - because I don't encourage anybody to get rid of their animals, unless it's an absolute last resort. But like everybody else here pointed out, dogs growl & snarl & bark for a reason. Barking is how they talk. The only thing they have to convey that they feel threatened or scared, is a growl or snarl. Dogs do this to unknowns, not knowns.
I also hope you let this pooch sleep in your bed or your bedroom at night. Dogs are pack animals, and you are it's pack. It angers me to no end when I see people who own dogs, keeping them tied up outside, especially all year (it's the freaking mid west, not California). Dogs do not understand why their pack is inside, and they are not with their pack. And dogs get bored & lonely, just like people do. When your dog barks when you leave him to go to work, he's mostly fearful he's been abandoned. But he's also bored & lonely. Give him a lot of things to chew on.
posted by starling02 at 04:28 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
I'm glad I have a cat. Low/no maintanance.
posted by swantucky at 06:28 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
I really enjoyed reading the comments thank you all I feel a lot better now. Some more info in response to the responses.
Didn't think about the timing, guess he is still adjusting. As for cages it's about 2' by 3-4' square. Just big enough that he can stand with a couple inches over him make a circle and lay down comfortably, but not too big.
I dont think I would use an electronic color, as I find them kinda cruel, no disrespect (at least for me I understand some people use them to each their own) It also looks like Quinn's previous owner *had* used a shock collar as a circle the size of a 50 cent piece about where his adams apple would be is completely bare and skin. Though over the 3 weeks it's starting to grow back :)
Yes I let him sleep with me, well us :) Even the first night after a good scrub he jumped up with us and snuggles by our feet between us. Very cute, one of the reasons I'm so attached to him. He's very loving.
The neighborhood I live in has LOTS of dogs, in fact the apartment complex just added a dog park :) Though I'm going to wait till I get him snipped before I try him around other dogs.
As for his barking, and part of the electric collar I suspect, he didnt bark for the first week we had him. Was kinda glad when he first did. Just I live in an apartment and having a darking dog can get nerve racking w/ the neighbors. But as you all said it's only been a couple weeks and he's just unsure, so it's promising it'll ease itself a bit.
Well I've ranted enough :) thanks again everyone. Just glad to know things look bright. Going to take time, hard work and training, but it'll be worth it.
starling: agree once you adopt a pet it should be for life. It's not fair to them to get a new family only to be tossed away again.
posted by jshriver at 08:10 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
I doubt you'll ever have a dog that won't let you near your kids - never heard of that.
Believe it or not, my in laws had a black lab that wouldn't let them anywhere near my husband and his brother. My mother-in-law still tells the story of a time when the boys (probably 11-12ish at the time) were watching cartoons on my in-laws' bed...she tried to enter the room and he blocked her at the door snarling and barking. Was extremely protective of my husband and his brother...but as long as they let him know "its okay," he'd back down.
Of course, being 11-12ish year old boys, they thought it was funny that the dog wouldn't let their mother near them, so they took their sweet old time telling him it was okay and to back off.
(No idea what made the dog like that...they'd had him since he was a puppy, and it wasn't like my husband and his brother were abused or anything like that. I could see a dog defending a child from the parents in that case! But it was just a quirk of the dog...the family adapted to it, and they had him until the day he died.)
posted by mom2 at 08:28 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
Some people have said that when they die they would like to come back as a dog at our house. We treat 'em pretty good. So you wouldn't think I would give off bad dog vibes. But a very close friend had a keeshond that absolutely would not let me any where near her. At parties or just having a cup of coffee at the kitchen table with her I would have to keep a very close eye on her dog Keena. There was no tactic that overcame her hostility towards me. As far as we knew I was the only living person this dog was agressive towards. Once, she nearly sailed over a cocktail table trying to get me. She died of heart failure a couple of years back. I always felt bad for that dog. I triggered some real bad experience somewhere back in her life and it must have been pretty awful.
posted by holland at 08:42 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
You've received some great advice here, and to add to it, just in case it helps ... .
I've heard the Nothing in Life is Free approach to "problem dogs" or problem-dog behavior is worth looking into. Several people I know with very attention-seeking, demanding, dominant dogs have implemented NILIF strategies with good success. You can read about it here: http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm.
If nothing else, it's an interesting read. I do keep NILIF in mind when interacting with my own dog, who is himself an attention-seeking, pushy sort of boy! He does quite often need to be reminded of who is REALLY in charge -- not via discipline, but via consistent, firm, calm leadership on the part of the people around him.
Also, you can use your dog's neediness for affection and attention to your advantage. Whenever he barks inappropriately, snarls, pees on someone, etc., give a firm, serious (but not yelling) "No!" and then turn your back, as should everyone else in the room. Send the dog the message that playtime is over, socializing is over, belly-rubbing time is over, or whatever. A dog that craves attention and affection hates to be ignored (as most dogs do), and this sort of treatment may send the message that his behavior is unacceptable more quickly and effectively than yelling, crating-as-punishment, swatting or spraying with a bottle. Don't get upset and don't give him even any negative attention, just ignore him.
Last, there's probably nothing you can read on the Internet that could help you as effectively as a good trainer can, so I wish you luck in finding one!
posted by jmleong at 01:40 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 17, 2007 #
if he snarls at people you have allowed near you then I would get rid of the dog before it bites a friend or a small child.
posted by bill at 10:45 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 17, 2007 #
If you don't want a shock collar (and I don't blame you) I really do recommend the mouthwash trick. I couldn't believe how fast it worked
posted by taliesin52 at 11:26 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 17, 2007 #
I've never heard of the mouthwash trick - but am going to try it today.
posted by starling02 at 01:56 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 17, 2007 #
I'd like to offer a plug for the "Dog Whisperer", a TV show on the National Geographic channel. I find it most often on
Fri. and Mon. nights. I love watching Caesar Milano take
'train wrecks' of dogs and turn them (and their humans) around with a few simple "rules, boundaries, and limitations". Watch it for a month and you will get his methodolgy. I run into unruly dogs on a regular basis and I've yet to find a dog that I that I couldn't deal with since I've bought into that strategy.
Holland's initial advise sounds like it was straight from that
show.
posted by Lerch at 10:26 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 17, 2007 #
Lerch: agree my girlfriend loves Caesar and watches that show whenever it's on. He does seem really talented.
posted by jshriver at 10:53 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 19, 2007 #
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