Gosh!
A reliable source of information - conspiracyplanet.com?
I don't think so.
No wonder you rant and rave about ridiculous conspiracy theories!
edie, really!
C'mon!
Do you expect sane people to believe this crap? - especially when the source that you quote is conspiracyplanet.com?
posted by Erie_Island at 10:26 A.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
At least with conspiracyplanet.com you know up front what you are getting into, as opposed to mainstream hacks who regurgitate Pentagon briefs under the guise of "journalism."
I think what bothers Erie Island most of all is the issue of loss of authoritarian control. The idea that average citizens can have a voice to contribute to the dialogue, without being censored or systematically denied access, is very frightening to some people.
Their only recourse is to try to reign in the freedom unleashed by the opening of the Pandora's box of the Internet.
Good luck with that.
posted by historymike at 11:06 A.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
"I think what bothers Erie Island most..."
What is your source for this? Are you a mind reader?
If this is an example of your craft (Didn't you claim, at one time, to be a working journalist?), then I shudder to think that people are now reading your crap in any "news" medium.
posted by Erie_Island at 11:54 A.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
I offered my opinion about your vitriolic attacks on those who disagree. You seem to be a person - once again, in my opinion - who cannot have a civil conversation with people with whom you disagree.
My source, then, would be your own words, such as "I have a right to be sickened and disgusted with you and your ilk" or that "giving the enemy comfort through your whining" is the result of disagreeing about the war.
Finally, I post opinions here, as opposed to reporting news in another part of my life. I am very clear about this, but it seems that you have some difficulty distinguishing between the two.
This may be due to what appears to be a Limbaugh-Hannity dominance in your news sources.
posted by historymike at 12:48 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
Actually the "source" is "Morgan Reynolds, PhD, former member of the Bush team". C-P simply posted an article by someone who quotes the "source"... again, that would be a former Bush team member. And the use of "conspiracy theory" as an effective club to shut down meaningful political debate hasn't been effective since the internet became ubiquitous. Nice try, though... the ministry of disinformation will be proud of you.
Polls have been taken which continue to report that approximately 70% of New York City residents state they do not believe the official version of 9-11 causes/events. The nationwide "don't believe" total is a little lower, but is still over 50%. So, the majority of Americans do not believe the official story about 9-11, especially not New Yorkers.
C-P has 6 selections of groups of articles with pretty good research on 9-11. Again, I don't post to convince anyone... I post for the lurkers in hopes that people will do a little research and think for themselves. And insults only amuse me.
The tide has turned, and the majority of Americans don't see why we have so far spent 2,000 lives (and counting) to supposedly avenge 3,000 lives lost on 9-11, and as each day passes, fewer and fewer Americans believe the hogwash we have been fed from Washington. Senators and Congressmen, always quick to note a trend among voters, see this happening, and they are starting to get their spines back. You may as well get used to it - because the truth will out... eventually.
Also, "todaysalternativenews.com" has some good stuff today.
posted by edie at 01:45 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
I think the military pulling a coup is more likely to happen than the possibility that the government detonated the WTC myself... though I, like any good scientific thinker, don't immediately discount the possibility -- but I'm not a demolitions expert, civil engineer, or other professional, nor do I have access to all the information needed.
This isn't probability though, where we can figure that the likelihood of winning the lottery is 1 in some big number. We get to have FUN with after-the-event investigations where everyone can manipulate and interpret the numbers to their satisfaction. Just like if the statistical likelihood of a certain type of cancer is 1 in 100,000 for the entire population of the United States, but within 5 miles of some industrial plant 1 in 100 people have that type of cancer, most people would conclude that the plant is somehow responsible, while another group (typically the people that own the plant) argue that it's some other factor. You can't PROVE that something from the plant causes cancer, but you can show statistical likelihoods and all sorts of other numbers that show whatever side you want to argue -- it's just simply impossible to follow the infinite number of variables and causes back to the original event -- and even then someone will claim that the possibility exists that all other conclusions were wrong, or that the moon landing was faked, or that the earth is flat.
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:56 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
historymike:
Nice try.
I THINK what bothers historymike the most is when someone calls him on his weak arguments regarding "disagreeing about the war."
You aren't "disagreeing about the war." You are attempting to pass off your conspiracy fantasies as truth, hoping that you can cause some damage. And, historymike, I THINK that you are purposely attempting to mislead readers here and cause problems for our soldiers because you have your panties bunched up over the fact that the president made a decision without consulting you.
Grow up!
posted by Erie_Island at 02:01 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
edie said:
Senators and Congressmen, always quick to note a trend among voters, see this happening, and they are starting to get their spines back.
You repeat yourself -- Congressmen cover both Senators and Representatives... but that's me being pedantic. And to call them "men"... very few in my opinion have any resemblance to your average human being other than physical appearance. But I digress.
Congresscritters don't have spines. They have political sense instead. If the wind blew due "marijuana legalization" or "antiwar" or "pro-choice", the ones with the most political sense would be passing legislation for thsoe things, with a few others having the political sense to know that not everybody would support them and that opposition to them would be a good way to stay in office.
If the wind doesn't blow from a specific direction (meaning it's all nice and quiet) they carry on business as usual, otherwise known as passing bills in return for campaign donations and lobby treats.
If 60% of people actively called for Bush's impeachment, even the Republican-dominated Congress would throw Bush under the bus as an attempt to save their own asses.
Why are you seeing the press just NOW starting to report on the Downing Street Memos? It's because a vocal group has been yelling at them to do so, and since there's very little opposition to reporting on it, they know the wise move is to report.
Why are there gay marriage bans going up when there's a starting to be a majority in support of some sort of recognized union of homosexual couples? It's because there's a vocal minority of people huffing and puffing, while organizing gay folks and others to take a stand FOR gay marriage is harder than herding cats.
posted by anonymouscoward at 02:07 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
Good points, a/c.
posted by historymike at 02:27 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
As for Erie Island, I feel sorry for you. You seem to have a lot of anger and bitterness.
I hope that you are able to achieve some level of personal peace. Perhaps you will, at some point, engage in civil discourse on this board.
There are plenty of people on this site who disagree without resorting to personal attacks. I suggest - politely - that you read the ToledoTalk section entitled Posting Guidelines
There are plenty of other sites on the net where you can flame, troll, or be as obnoxious as you would like.
posted by historymike at 05:54 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
So.
Now that you find someone who calls you on your conspiracy fantasies, you have the unmittigated arrogance to presume that you are the moderator here?! Are you trying to pull a coup de etat on jr? jr has my email address, so he can let me know if he wants me to chill.
It seems to me that if you feel that way, then perhaps you, Michael, should find another forum. I'm happy here.
Thank you for your very sincere concern (Can you FEEL my sarcasm?) for peace for me.
Just because I defend that which should be defended doesn't mean I don't have peace. I'm just not about to let you get away with it - that's all.
posted by Erie_Island at 08:04 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
AHEM!
User Profile for "Erie_Island"
Member since: February 4, 2005
Last logged-in visit: June 16, 2005
Erie_Island has submitted 2 topics and 20 comments to Toledo Talk
User Profile for "historymike"
Member since: February 18, 2005
Last logged-in visit: June 16, 2005
historymike has submitted 27 topics and 521 comments to Toledo Talk
User Profile for "anonymouscoward"
Member since: July 9, 2004
Last logged-in visit: June 16, 2005
anonymouscoward has submitted 39 topics and 152 comments to Toledo Talk
Speaking as someone with "greater seniority" than you, Erie Island, I think your arrogant newbie thickheaded intolerant troublemaking ass can politely fornicate yourself elsewhere and cease living.
I've been here longer than you, and both historymike and I have contributed more than you.
If anyone has any "growing up" to do, it's you. If you don't like it, please don't let the baby-gate hit you in the butt on the way out.
posted by anonymouscoward at 08:19 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
Texas A&M - Isn't that the place where they can't even stack firewood properly for a little old bonfire? I suppose conspiracyplanet has some great "grassy knoll theory" stuff too.
posted by holland at 08:43 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
A.C.
You have what? Seniority?
Senile, perhaps.
And oh, BTW, who made you the moderator?
No doubt you consider yourself a proponent of freedom of speech?
BTW, if you think that your history at T.T. shows anything other than your tendency to bloviate, well you display the same pompous arrogance that historymike deploys around here.
:-D
posted by Erie_Island at 08:54 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
There is no such thing as free speech on message boards -- they are controlled by those who own them
So unless you own your own? pretty much have to play by whatever rules exist.
posted by psyche777 at 09:01 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
I vote to kick Erie Island off the island. Any other members of the tribe joining me?
posted by anonymouscoward at 09:42 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
so I have enough seniority to vote?
lol
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 11:52 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 16, 2005 #
Erie Island:
1. I am not the poster who referred to Conspiracy Planet, despite your repeated references to my "conspiracy fantasies." Read the posts. That being said, there are some interesting things on the site. I merely mentioned that I found the site's name to be helpful to the reader: you are not going to be fooled into thinking there is a pretense to mainstream journalism at Conspiracyplanet.com
2. This is a community, not a dictatorship. jr is the moderator and the kind soul who pays the monthly fees. As a community, we have a voice in how the site should function; in particular, we can express unhappiness with posters who repeatedly use personal attacks in lieu of debating the issues. This is not assuming the role of moderator, but rather participating in virtual democracy.
3. I did not make my comments aout your well-being in a sarcastic tone. I sincerely hope that you find some peace. You sound very angry.
posted by historymike at 08:28 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 17, 2005 #
historymike:
What makes you think that I have confused you with anyone else? I stand by my "conspiracy fantasy" phrase when it applies to you OR edie.
And, oh, do you REALLY think that jr believes your platitudes? I'm sure he understands that you would really just not have to deal with me, so you're attempting to have me diciplined.
historymike, I find your accusations against me, considering it was you who actually HAS engaged in ad hominem attacks, to be hilarious.
Also, I lOVE the irony! A "journalist" trying to stamp out communication. Remember I said LOVE - not SURPRISED.
:-D
Love ya bro.
posted by Erie_Island at 09:22 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 17, 2005 #
I have to confess, I missed the reference to reality TV earlier. Sincerely, that was a good one!
I wanna stay on da island, mon.
posted by Erie_Island at 09:25 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 17, 2005 #
Erie Island:
I think that jr believes in the Posting Guidelines, since he wrote them. Beyond that, you would have to ask jr.
As far as "stamping out communication," I make no such claim. I offered my opinion, along with several other posters, about your personal attacks. You are free to post anything you want, subject to both community displeasure or webmaster removal.
By the way, would you be so willing as to provide examples of the ad hominem attacks of which you accuse me? I have listed several of examples of your use of this logical fallacy (read: personal attack); if you are going to make the charge, then I politely suggest that you provide evidence that I have committed this act.
posted by historymike at 10:23 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 17, 2005 #
OK, I'm going to stay out of the argument and just comment on the thread-starter.
There are conspiracy theorists that will turn anything into a plot against the people of the United States. I just don't believe it. Despite many people's beliefs otherwise government workers are normal citizens just like all of us. They have families and kids, they go to church, they have to pay the bills and make ends meet. To pull off hijacking and crashing four airliners into targets and then blowing the World Trade Center up with explosives would require a number of government workers to participate, and someone (probably most) would be repulsed by the idea and report it to the media or other authorities. A few soldiers at Abu Graib can't even keep their juvenile antics and mistreatment of prisoners quiet....how could the government keep a hundred or so people completely quiet about a plot to kill 3000 people?
posted by HeyHey at 10:36 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 17, 2005 #
Frankly, I'm bored with this exchange. I have really tried to stay interested. However, it is difficult when faced with persistent, and deliberate ignorance from several people here.
C'mon! Are you trying to claim that you are NOT trying to have the moderator silence me?
historymike, it's just that I perceive condescension, arrogance and the attempt to intimidate in almost ALL of your posts.
Since I'm the only one here willing to call any of you on your ignorance, then I guess I have to be willing to defend myself against your ineffective flailing.
However, if I fail to respond, it isn't because I am not able to counter your claims, it's just because I do have some better things to do with my time.
Thanks for the fun, though.
Love from your friend, Erie_Island...
posted by Erie_Island at 10:42 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 17, 2005 #
Agreed. This theory sounds tough to swallow. I think that Osama and Crew just got lucky, and a confluence of structural peculiarities led to the buildings collapsing.
HeyHey hits upon the ultimate dilemma of conspiracies - eventually someone leaks information.
Usually. However, I firmly believe that the conspiracy to kill the children's TV show "Run, Joe, Run" in the 1970s after only two seasons went to the highest levels of the US government.
Rotten bastards! There will be a special place in hell reserved for these conspirators.
posted by historymike at 10:45 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 17, 2005 #
As long as all the alter-egos are agreed, that's all that matters :):)
posted by edie at 02:56 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 17, 2005 #
P.S. I love the way Reynolds did this. He's retired, and the bushies can't touch his pension. He doesn't have an office on campus, so no way to punish him there either. The guy's got guts and style. He's just elaborating on what the polls say is the majority of American public opinion. But he's elaborating with facts about how buildings are structured. This discussion has been all over the internet since 2001. "Confluence of structural peculiarities" - yeah right. That also explains why Cheney's story about when he got to the bunker doesn't match witness accounts... he was there plenty early to order a shoot down... waaaay after the hijacked planes were reported to the military. Supposedly we have pilots/planes on 24-hour alert for just such emergencies. But they were nowhere to be found on September 11.
I'll stop there, because frankly, you are wasting your time. People are going to think for themselves... the internet is up and running, and there's nothing that will stop the truth from coming out.
Reynolds' comments just made WorldNetDaily, which means they will have to be discussed in some of the mainstream media sooner or later. Almost everyone in the building trades says those buildings could not have come down that way without help. This is exactly the discussion the admin doesn't want to be ongoing in public. Congratulations Professor Reynolds - but you should probably consider hiring a body guard and maybe a food taster for any public events you attend.
posted by edie at 03:12 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 17, 2005 #
So that "friendly" get together idea is less likely now?
The posting guidlines here were influenced by Matt Haughey who runs MetaFilter.com. And yes, I do believe the guidelines are sufficient.
My wish? From the guidelines:
"ToledoTalk is used to discuss the news, events, and issues affecting people in northwest Ohio and southeast Michigian. Use your best judgement on issues outside of Toledo."
Maybe for the rest of June we stick with only local stories and issues. All of the communities around Toledo, has to be something going on that needs a mention. The Lake school board nixed all activities to save money. Stuff like that.
posted by jr at 06:32 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 17, 2005 #
Thursday morning's Coast To Coast show consisted of a panel discussing the 9-11 attacks.
"A 4-hour panel discussion investigating theories behind 9-11 was held featuring four guests, all of whom expressed the belief that there are holes in the official story. Peter Lance and Mike Levine leaned towards the view that the government was negligent but didn't plan the attacks, while the other two panelists David Ray Griffin and Alex Jones suspect an "inside job" to varying extents."
"Alex Jones, a documentary filmmaker and political researcher, pointed towards a "shadow" government above Pres. Bush as orchestrating the attacks. The hijackers, he suggested, were government trained operatives, who believed they were part of a drill on September 11th and not on a suicide mission. The planes themselves, he continued, were flown by remote control into the WTC towers."
Also on the show:
"First half-hour guest, Morgan Reynolds, the former chief economist for the US Dept. of Labor during 2001–2, shared his view that the WTC collapse was likely a controlled demolition. He said there were too many gaps and inadequate explanations in the official story."
I wonder if any of these people have recently released books?
You know it has to be true if George Noory or Art Bell are talking about it. I guess that NOVA documentary on PBS titled "Why the Towers Fell" is a hoax. Interestingly, from another PBS documentary titled "America Rebuilds", which aired in September 2002:
"Larry Silverstein, the real estate developer who owned the leases on WTC buildings 1, 2 and 7, possibly indicates that Seven World Trade Center was deliberately demolished, which has generated concern that One and Two World Trade Center might also have been deliberately demolished."
posted by jr at 12:22 A.M. EST on Sat Jun 18, 2005 #
If you really want to go off on conspiracy theories the logical conclusion would be that the planes were indeed flown into the twin towers as a cover for the controlled demolition.
Trying to tell people that planes did not really fly into the twin towers isn't realistic as too many saw it with their own eyes. The fact that the first plane could have not been shot down because of the disbelief such an action could be taken is believable, however not the second, or the third, or the fourth......
Being a pilot's daughter and knowing how quickly pre 9/11 my father was confronted with a situation of violating federal airspace over washington there are questions that have not been answered however not being a fan of conspiracy theories except for area 51 type stuff, I would say it is to me after reading the 9/11 report an airlines and FAA screw up as to not acting fast enough for the military to take over as opposed to some major Bush driven event. Does it make sense that both twin towers collapsed when they were designed to take a hit from planes? No...but then again the NOVA documentary did make some logical conclusions. I think Bush is a bad president on many fronts, however I think to give him enough credit to be able to pull something off like 9/11 without having someone leak it is a farther fetched idea than aliens having landed here and being hidden from us...he's not that good.
posted by psyche777 at 01:19 A.M. EST on Sat Jun 18, 2005 #
PBS is not my Bible, for starters. If it's yours, that's your choice. But many if not all of the commentators, producers etc. we see on PBS write books and make big money. In the case of the truly great series on the Civil War, it made Ken Burns and at least one of his commentators very rich - I've heard them both say so.
What happens when a mainstream broadcaster decides he has enough fame and/or power to tell the truth on this, or any other, administration, they get fired. Just ask Dan Rather. Or maybe ask Dr. Glum, who has made it his life's mission to spread the word about something called "essiac" for cancer treatment [look it up... too lengthy for here, but it's sold locally in the Toledo area]. He's currently in hiding after harrassment and confiscation of copies of a book he wrote about Rene Caisse, by the FBI (not the FDA). He has received numerous death threats, at least one on a public street in California. Over a decade ago, he tried to convince a "Nightline" producer to have him on and "discredit" him if possible, he just wanted an opportunity to put out the facts. The Nightline producer told him "I have kids and a mortgage" - translation: He didn't dare.
That's why there IS alternative media. This message board is alternative media. What never ceases to astonish me is the lengths people will go to on message boards to stifle dissent of any kind. Either by hysterics, or carefully aimed velvet hammers attempting to discredit an idea because of where it was posted or broadcast. If national discussions are not allowed anymore, here, that's fine, I don't have a problem with that, all you had to do is say so. It can go back to being a nice quiet tightly controlled hobby, which is pretty much what I thought it was in the first place.
But think about one thing - what has been the tenor of this board regarding local events (not counting the Jeep employee tragedies). The board has been used to do personal attacks and make smart aleck comments about everybody from Noe to elected officials - many before they even have their day in court. So keep it local - no problem, but don't pretend there's something high-flown community minded going on here. Other than the Jeep topic, which has to be serious because it's about real tragedies, I think it's been pretty gutter level a lot of the time.
Basically, what you have said above is that only what makes it into the mainstream, carefully controlled, media is truth.
I and millions of Americans beg to differ.
posted by edie at 11:19 A.M. EST on Sat Jun 18, 2005 #
A couple examples of past posts might be in order. There was the ad hominem attack on evangelicals as a group.
And then there was the poster who called Senator Voinovich a "crybaby" and described him as "blubbering" on the floor of the Senate regarding a U.N. appointee. Ring a bell? You thought that was a local story or issue when you launched that attack?
posted by edie at 12:15 P.M. EST on Sat Jun 18, 2005 #
Syndicate ToledoTalk
