How is this a giveaway?
Don't loans normally have to be paid back?
posted by timault at 10:20 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 24, 2005 #
Well...after reading the article it appears more about the past problems of both Tim Schulien and Thomas Hutton rather than the loan. It also appears that both of them want to take over the wine shop, so that could lead for some interesting events in the future since Hutton owns the liquor license.
posted by psyche777 at 11:38 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 24, 2005 #
The Erie Street Market will not support these new endeavors. Its location is its biggest foe.
If I have to drive to a meat market it will not be the ESM. Should a meat/seafood/wine shop be easily accessible with a short walk as I leave my office,(downtown) then yes absolutely I would support it. If I get must get into my car to go shopping, it will be at Kroger.
The ESM is equivalent to the Southwyck Mall.
posted by maverick at 11:56 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 24, 2005 #
I heard that Hanson Inc., which used to be a downtown business, asked the city for $8000 for whatever, but the city never returned phone calls. Hanson has moved or will move out of Toledo. I wonder why Hanson wanted money from Toledo to begin with? If it really was only $8000, why didn't Toledo at least respond to the inquiry? I guess city officials never responded to Hanson one way or the other. How does Toledo choose to help some businesses and completely ignore others?
May 11 WNWO story:
"King Insurance is taking 22 jobs and more than $1 million in payroll out of downtown. Internet marketing firm Hanson, Inc., is doing the same, leaving downtown with 32 jobs. Construction engineering company Toltest is making a move as well, taking its 75 jobs out of town. The total payroll lost adds up to more than $8 million. The income tax loss to Toledo adds up to about $180,000 per year."
"So where are they headed? One location is Arrowhead Park in Maumee, which is offering bigger buildings and tax breaks. But Maumee's mayor says businesses are seeking out his city."
By chance, I had an interesting conversation on St. Clair St. with a guy who owns two or three buildings in the downtown. He's been leasing space downtown for 12 years. He said that in the past year or more, he has not leased any office space. He has, however, leased living and retail space and space for artists.
He said the small businesses that require 1000 to 2000 sq ft of office space are finding it difficult to remain downtown due to the out of control taxes, inspections, and lack of services. From talking with him, it seems there are too many restrictions or barriers for some small businesses. He said taxes and inspections are needed, but the environment created by the city is not conducive for keeping and attracting small businesses that require office space. Retail shops are opening, but it's the small offices that are feeling squeezed out.
He mentioned Airpath leaving downtown for Boston, and he mentioned Hanson leaving. Both are technology companies. He believes the future is in technology companies. He said another downtown business that sells its products entirely over the Internet is moving out of Toledo.
He made an interesting claim about how downtown business owners who live outside of Toledo are ignored by Mayor Ford. Similar, I guess, to these "Meet the Mayor" meetings where the Mayor will only take questions from people who live in Toledo.
The building owner said he has addressed Mayor Ford in the past on downtown issues, and Ford responds by asking, "Where do you reside?" When the answer is outside of Toledo, the Mayor has no interest in what the guy says. Even though this building owner pays tens of thousands of dollars per year in Toledo taxes, the Mayor is not interested in him because he lives outside of Toledo.
The building owner said a lot of downtown business owners live outside of Toledo. One main reason for living outside of Toledo is the public school system.
I wonder how much if this is true? Are business owners ignored by the city because they don't live in Toledo? Is that fair? They pay taxes to Toledo, but they don't have a voice? Why would the Mayor only take questions from people who live in Toledo? Maybe Ford should also ignore questions from people who live in Toledo but work outside of the city.
If the Mayor or the City is ignoring downtown businesses because of where the owners live, then it's no wonder that some small businesses get frustrated and leave the city.
While the two of us were talking, a small business owner came out of a building. The two guys knew each other. When this other guy heard we were talking about the downtown business climate, this other guy raised his arms and shook his head. It was an act of frustration. This other guy said similar things about how the city is making it tough on small businesses.
The building owner also claimed that if you raise too much of a fuss with the city, all of a sudden inspectors will show up at your office or at your building.
The Downtown Latte coffee shop hosts regular meetings called "New Urbanism." The next meeting is on Tuesday, June 28 from 5:30 - 8:00 p.m. Developers, business owners, and residents attend the meetings. They're expecting 60 people at Tuesday's meeting. I think it was at the last meeting when someone mentioned that Bass Pro Shops Outdoor World would occupy the old Edison plant on the east side. To get some of the "word on the street" info, this meeting might be a good place to be.
posted by jr at 12:28 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 24, 2005 #
The ESM is a sinkhole. Not much is there and the hours are pretty poor.
I think the big question is how successful is the downtown housing going to be if downtown keeps hemorraging businesses? You know the city government is in pretty poor shape if it can't smooth the way for Packo's to build a new eatery by the ballpark.
posted by Terrahawk1 at 01:36 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 24, 2005 #
What's up with the new Packo's? I was by there last week, and there's still a sign saying Packo's is coming. The Swan Creek Candle store (a pretty neat shop) next door has been open for a while, and I think both announced plans to open businesses there at roughly the same time, didn't they?
posted by jr at 01:40 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 24, 2005 #
>
This is a bogus loan. The organization that runs the Erie Street Market is a city entity. The ESM owns and is running the two businesses right now. In effect, the city borrowed money to give to itself. The wine shop is owned and operated by the city on city money. The city will never pay itself back on this except by shifting funds around from one pocket to another.
This raises an interesting point. Running a liquor business may be illegal for the city. The state liquor control rules state that city-owned entities may not own liquor, beer, or wine licenses. This looks like an end run around the state liquor control. The question is, how can you have a liquor license owned by a private citizen being used in an establishment owned by a municipal entity? The liquor rules say that the owner of the license and the owner of the business have to be the same. This whole scheme is bogus.
posted by pete at 02:43 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 24, 2005 #
pete, you are absolutely correct. Does anyone remember Nick Batt, former disbarred solicitor for the Village of Holland and Oregon? He tried to end run liquor control, put a liquor permit in his name joint with the Village of Holland and have Holland pay for it. One smart citizen tripped him up and it was the beginning of the end. He was officially disbarred for overbilling, but the liquor permit monkey business started the ball rolling. One call to Columbus could cost the City dearly.
posted by holland at 09:13 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 24, 2005 #
If it is taking city money to keep the Erie Street market going, then maybe The Erie Street Market should just die a quick death.
The Erie Street Market "suburban mall in downtown" idea is just a development plan straight out of the 1980s and has been proven to be a wasteful endeavor in hundreds of cities across the US and Canada. No matter what the reason, the city is wasting tax dollars to prop this up as it will never be a success.
The only successful way to bring retail business on a larger scale back to the downtown is to change zoning to allow for mixed use facilities where a sizable population once again lives downtown supporting shops located on the street level.
posted by Kevin at 08:55 A.M. EST on Sat Jun 25, 2005 #
JR
just saw your post above about a community meeting involving new urbanism...I would love to attend something like that, unfortunately I am taking night classes up in Detroit on Tuesday nights working towards my masters of architecture degree. I didn't know there were enough people interested in that around here. New urbanism is really the way Toledo should start looking to develop.
New urbanism isn't actually a new idea, but a return to how things were built before the modernists came to America when Adolf Hitler was kicking them out of Germany based on their Socialist ideas and the large scale adoption of the automobile in America. Mixed use buildings and walkable communities are a large part of new urbanism. I may be throwing things out there people already know, but I think it is a small minority that knows and truly understand new urbanism and why it is a successful way to plan communities.
posted by Kevin at 09:16 A.M. EST on Sat Jun 25, 2005 #
Thanks Pete and Holland, I wondered about the whole legality of having the liquor permit be in one person's name and them not being the owner.....
See how much you can learn here?
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 09:49 P.M. EST on Sat Jun 25, 2005 #
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