Bring on the draft, Dubya, cause I want to see what a president with approval ratings in the teens looks like.
Right now 53% say Bush sucks and only 45% approve of him. Cue swd and babbleman to call the majority of Americans stupid, to attack the media, etc.
Only 34% of people think we're "winning" the "war" in Iraq.
An ABC News/Washington Post poll says 52% of people believe that Bush misled them about Iraq.
posted by anonymouscoward at 03:21 P.M. EST on Tue Jun 28, 2005 #
Simply amazing!
All of this "analysis" and the speech won't be given for another hour or so.
Y'all are GOOD!
I wish I had some of those "powers." (tongue firmly in cheek)
:-)
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 05:54 P.M. EST on Tue Jun 28, 2005 #
Only 34% of people think we're "winning" the "war" in Iraq.
Hmmm. Yet from the same poll, 52% think that the war has contributed to the long-term security of the US (and this is trending up from 47% in early June)...AND 58% feel that we should keep our forces there until civil order is restored.
I thought it made sense to include these stats since AC, in his feverish search for the truth, passed right over them.
You know, those are remarkable numbers in the face of the consistant media message to the contrary. And it's on the completely opposite side of the Move On Michael Moore AC Al Franken Edie Air America all-of-Hollywood and the-rest-of-the-pop-culture crowd. What does that say about them?
I think it says that they are on the wrong side of war.
What's interesting about this is that I've been hearing the "analysis" of these polls all day (much like AC's: only those stats that support the liberal side). And when I started searching for it, the first thing I found was the an Al Jazeera headline.
Come to think of it, they are on the wrong side too - which means they are on the same side as AC.
posted by babbleman at 11:20 P.M. EST on Tue Jun 28, 2005 #
Come off it, babbledroid.
52% think that the war has contributed to the long-term security of the US -- and those are morons, cause we did not find the WMD Bush promised Saddam had. And Allah only knows how much stuff Saddam did have that's gone missing, presumably into the hands of terrorists. To top that off, Your Savior Bush had this to say in his speech:
Some wonder whether Iraq is a central front in the war on terror. Among the terrorists, there is no debate. Hear the words of Osama Bin Laden: "This Third World War is raging" in Iraq. "The whole world is watching this war." He says it will end in "victory and glory or misery and humiliation."
Jesus Christ naked on a pogo stick in a snowstorm! THERE WOULD BE NO WAR IN IRAQ IF BUSH HADN'T MADE UP REASONS TO INVADE AND THEN INVADED! Therefore, if Bush hadn't got a hardon for Saddam, Osama would have nothing to say about Iraq. And if that's not good enough, too many people forgot Dubya promised to git Osama "dead or alive"... and he's failed to keep that promise. Had he kept that promise, the only way Osama could be talking about anything is through a medium or Ouija board -- which would suit me fine. But hey, we invaded Iraq, made it into a terrorist breeding ground, gave lots of fence-sitting Muslims more reasons to hate the USA ("evil Americans occupying an Islamic nation", "evil Americans bombing/shooting innocent civilians", "evil Americans unable to keep peace and security"). Hell, they've made it plain for years they have wanted us the hell out of the entire region and to stop aiding Israel.
Now, babbledroid, if you want to talk about keeping our forces over there until order is restored... hah, when was order ever enforced? And your faithful leaders Rummy and Dick and Condi and Bush have all offered many, MANY differing comments on how long things would/are going to take. Everything from Bush on the aircraft carrier, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED to "quagmire", and how the Iraqi people would greet us with flowers.
52% of Americans swallowed the propaganda of the Bush Administration. Tell me, how many of the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqi? The answer is an integer greater than negative one and less than one. We're not safer.
Swallow this, babbleman:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The CIA believes the Iraq insurgency poses an international threat and may produce better-trained Islamic terrorists than the 1980s Afghanistan war that gave rise to Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda, officials said on Wednesday.
A classified report from the U.S. spy agency says Iraqi and foreign fighters are developing a broad range of skills, from car bombings and assassinations to coordinated conventional attacks on police and military targets, officials said.
Once the insurgency ends, Islamic militants are likely to disperse as highly organized battle-hardened combatants capable of operating throughout the Arab-speaking world and in other regions including Europe.
[...]
Bin Laden won prominence as a U.S. ally in the war against Soviet troops in Afghanistan. He later used Afghanistan as the training center for his al Qaeda network, which is blamed for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on Washington and New York.
President Bush justified the invasion of Iraq in part by charging that Saddam Hussein was supporting al Qaeda. A U.S. inquiry later found no collaboration between prewar Iraq and the bin Laden network.
Well well well, the USA has actually caused Iraq to become a terrorist training camp. Ain't that swell?
I have a tidbit for you and swd to swallow:
Belgian doctors carried out five operations on a young Iraqi woman to repair leg wounds caused by a U.S. cluster bomb. Wanting to add some justice to this humanitarian act, the doctors handed a bill for 51,570 euros ($66,650) to the U.S. Embassy in Brussels on April 28.
The young woman, Hiba Kassim, was wounded in her leg, hip and abdomen by the bomb during the U.S. invasion two years ago. The same bomb killed her brother. The doctors, from Medical Aid for the Third World (MATW), brought Kassim to Belgium in 2004 in an attempt to save her ankle. At this time she is able to walk, but with a limp.
In the letter to the U.S. Embassy demanding payment, Dr. Bert de Belder of MATW wrote April 25:
“Hiba is aware of the fact that war and occupation continue to make life very hard for her family, neighbors and friends. But this young girl, who turned 15 just last week, is determined to return to her country. She intends to study hard and hopes to become a doctor and serve her people.
“Hiba is also convinced of the fact that the U.S. government is the prime responsible for her people’s suffering, and the sole responsible for her own, personal suffering.
“We hold the U.S. government accountable ... First, U.S. troops hit Hiba with a cluster bomb, while, according to International Humani tarian Law, targeting civilians in an international armed conflict is prohibited, as is the use of cluster bombs or ammunition in civilian areas.
“Second, Hiba was not able to get proper medical care, while according to the Fourth Geneva Convention (Articles 50, 55 and 56), the occupying power has the duty of ensuring the medical supplies of the population and of ensuring and maintaining the medical and hospital establishments and services in the occupied territory.
“As a humanitarian agency, we decided to step in and try, to the best of our ability, to provide Hiba Kassim with the care and the opportunities that the U.S. occupation of her country denied her. But we promised to Hiba and to the broad group of supporters and sympathizers—including Olympic medalist and multiple world and Euro pean judo champion Gella Vandecaveye — that we would send the bill to the U.S. government.”
Dr. Geert van Moorter, who spoke in the U.S. last year of his experiences in Iraq, accompanied Kassim to Amman, Jordan, where her father met her.
We're paying for Iraqi health care while people frikking die, here, in the USA. We're patching up civilians that we've wrongfully blown up. Of course, if the terrorists attacked and hurt me, do you think the Feds are going to pay for my health care? Effing Hell no!
posted by anonymouscoward at 03:58 A.M. EST on Wed Jun 29, 2005 #
anonymouscoward - I agree with you especially the last paragraph. American health, wealth and pursuit of happiness is not part of Bush's "resoluteness".
We have less democracy now than we did prior to 9/11. (Don't anyone start on how much safer we are. I have yet to have a potential terrorist check my library list, use a metal detector on my bare feet in an airport check in line or tell me not to be so outspoken about Bush. Those experiences were from Americans.)
My children's children will be paying off our national debt. And that's assuming they have jobs that cannot be outsourced. The American dream may not be available to them as the very rich now control so much of America's wealth it is nearly impossible to "move up".
Health? Thank God I have perfect health and health insurance. If not my children and I would be at the mercy of emergency rooms and sympathetic doctors with samples. Unfortunately so many others are there.
So, as I step off my soapbox, I want Americans to care more about the homeless, mentally ill, underpaid folks they step over in disdain than the same people in Iraq. Charity begins at home.
posted by thinkingwoman at 08:57 A.M. EST on Wed Jun 29, 2005 #
Thank you thinkingwoman. I wholeheartedly second your opinion.
posted by unknowncomment at 11:13 A.M. EST on Wed Jun 29, 2005 #
...if the terrorists attacked and hurt me, do you think the Feds are going to pay for my health care?
I agree with you...American health...is not part of Bush's "resoluteness".
To the contrary, you both would be taken care of quite well. 911 victims' families received an average of $12.6 million, 42% of which came from the federal government (52% insurance companies and 7% charities).
My children's children will be paying off our national debt.
Half of that debt is for social programs which you are implying in the rest of this post is either non-existent or not enough. Typical liberal economics.
And that's assuming they have jobs that cannot be outsourced.
Odds are very much in their favor. 2 million jobs were lost to offshoring in the 20 years ending in 2004 (1.4% of the 140 million available jobs). In that same period, 35 million jobs were added.
What's more, insourcing to the US is now growing faster that outsourcing out of the US. But its alright that you don't take that into account - you won't ever know about those things listening to mainstream media.
...it is nearly impossible to "move up".
Correction: with that attitude, it is completely impossible to move up - and it is no one else's fault but yours.
posted by babbleman at 11:28 A.M. EST on Wed Jun 29, 2005 #
Refresh my memory babbleman. What was the average payout of the 1993 attack on the WTC? What was the average payout for the victims of the Oklahoma City bombing? What was the average payout for victims in Bali, on the U.S.S. Cole, at Khobar Towers?
The reason the 9/11 WTC group got money was because of the huge error by the intelligence agencies in this country for the years and months preceding the bombing. Any group that incompetent should be held at least financially responsible.
Nonetheless I am paying higher insurance premiums because of the huge payout for WTC 2001 as a result so I am paying twice: Once for lousy execution of intelligence and once because the insurance companies need to make up the profits somewhere else and I don't even know a terrorist.
Half that debt is not for social programs although I did not imply they were necessary nor needed expansion. I simply said I was glad to have health insurance and many others don't. Medical debts are the number one reason for bankruptcy. The debt is due to tax cuts and to the two wars we are waging. Whether or not you agree with the wars they still cost lots of money and unless you are in the $100 million range you have not fully benefited from the dividend cuts. The very wealthy get most of their income from investments so the tax cuts were suited perfectly for them.
Remember when Caspar Weinberger convinced Ronald Reagan that the USSR would decline if it had to choose between guns and butter - knowing the Soviets would never feed their people first? We're in the same situation. I don't think the terrorists were smart enough to use the same reasoning. No, our leaders did it to us.
I read several papers every day and magazines every month of every kind of political view. My television news ranges from Fox News to PBS and I have not yet seen a story about an increase in jobs coming to the U.S. Point me in the right direction and I will certainly learn as much as possible. If I find you're right I will be the first to say so.
Moving up doesn't mean getting a four bedroom house instead of three. It means that opportunities are endless and I believe, at least currently, that has changed.
I don't need help moving up. I worked my way through college. I paid off loans by myself too. When my children go to college they will likely do the same thing. It builds character. However, they will not have the vast array of choices I had. Engineering or computer jobs? Gone. Factory jobs in textiles, automobiles, air conditioning? Gone. Teaching? Too little money devoted to educating our children means fewer teachers. So, gone. Why should I have to try to steer my children into health care or hair cutting because those jobs will always exist locally?
Critical thinking, babbleman. Try it.
posted by thinkingwoman at 01:47 P.M. EST on Wed Jun 29, 2005 #
"I have not yet seen a story about an increase in jobs coming to the U.S. Point me in the right direction ..."
If such data exists, I would think it would be on the Bureau of Labor Statistics website.
posted by jr at 02:03 P.M. EST on Wed Jun 29, 2005 #
babbleman and swd
I salute you with engaging with AC, edie, anonymous comment, etc.
Have you noticed that they can dish it out, but can't take it?
For example thinkingwoman implies that she is "critically thinking", while you are not. However, if I were to make the same claim regardng them, then historymike would be asking jr to have me bannned from the discussion.
These people claim that "outsourcing" is taking away American jobs. So while they tell the Mexicans, Koreans and other emerging nations that "we", the U.S. will keep the least hazardous and higher paying jobs, they (emerging nation citizens) can just suffer with their barely subsistence level existence. A level of subsistence that causes one of the highest levels of disease and infant mortality rates ever conceived.
While liberals are making themselves feel better by watching and giving a few bucks to Live 8, their representatives (Marcy Kaptur) are telling them what great work she has done by fighting free trade agreements.
So while the liberals are killing children of emerging nations through denial of jobs to these children's parents, they wave around some woman's accidental wound as an indictment of leaders who won't join them in their genocidal denial of income-producing jobs to the emerging nations.
I have news for you liberals, or whatever you malcontents want to be known as; Either you allow others freedom and economic liberty, or you will see much more war and famine and disease in this world! The discussion won't be how to deal with recruiters in Secondary Schools, it will be who has the lowest draft number.
Have any of you people travled and worked with people in emerging nations? They want jobs and freedom - not Live 8 pittance - feel good liberals wailing about war while taking food out of children's mouths. They want respect that a good job gives them - just like you!
That's why there is a term like "compassionate conservative."
posted by Erie_Island at 10:29 A.M. EST on Thu Jun 30, 2005 #
Sorry in advance if this is difficult to follow. My italics won't work.
For example thinkingwoman implies that she is "critically thinking", while you are not. However, if I were to make the same claim regardng them, then historymike would be asking jr to have me bannned from the discussion.
Interesting comments Erie_Island. I completely support your right to respond with your opinions. It would be regrettable if they were censored. I am a champion of the First Amendment.
While liberals are making themselves feel better by watching and giving a few bucks to Live 8…
I see Live 8 as the ultimate “compassionate conservative” event. It will raise tens of millions of dollars (I don’t know how you define pittance) from private donations rather than from taxpayers. It will go to severely impoverished Africans. Bono of U2, a major force in putting Live 8 together, had nothing but good words for President Bush on Meet the Press last Sunday and his efforts in Africa regarding AIDS so I don’t see how this could possibly be seen as only a liberal feel good event.
These people claim that "outsourcing" is taking away American jobs. So while they tell the Mexicans, Koreans and other emerging nations that "we", the U.S. will keep the least hazardous and higher paying jobs, they (emerging nation citizens) can just suffer with their barely subsistence level existence. A level of subsistence that causes one of the highest levels of disease and infant mortality rates ever conceived.
And you think I’m a liberal. Here’s where the critical thinking comes in. I took your comments and looked up the infant mortality rate and primary school attendance for all countries with a special focus on Mexico and Korea since you mentioned them. According U.N. statistics, http://www.unicef.org/sowc05/english/fullreport.html the United States ranks 36th out of 203 on mortality five years old and under. We are last of the industrialized countries and rank below Korea, Slovenia, Malaysia, Poland, Croatia and the Czech Republic. In primary school attendance the U.S. ranked 62nd out of 203 behind Mexico, Korea, Congo, Georgia, Congo, Venezuela and Albania. Once again my dollars will be devoted to American children.
Have any of you people travled and worked with people in emerging nations? They want jobs and freedom - not Live 8 pittance - feel good liberals wailing about war while taking food out of children's mouths. They want respect that a good job gives them - just like you!
No I have not. Have you? Have you ever offered training to the laid-off, underpaid, poor people who live here? Have you ever had people come to your office and beg for training so they can get a minimum wage job to feed their children? Have you ever had to turn them away because they aren’t “in the system” and the training, no matter how inexpensive, is too much? I don’t work to take food out of children’s mouths – I work to get it put in.
The huge cuts in poverty programs to pay for war is hurting the emerging people here. So you just keep feeling sorry for those hungry children you will never have to face while you ignore the ones you can actually see.
posted by thinkingwoman at 12:40 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 30, 2005 #
Agreed, thinkingwoman.
I have followed your posts, and I concur that you are certainly no "liberal;" at least, not of the cartoon variety. I suspect there is a streak of Jeffersonian liberalism that runs through your core.
No offense, Erie_Island, but many conservatives are aginst this war, in addition to the "liberals" and "malcontents" you skewered.
Many fiscal conservatives look at the hundreds of billions wasted on a war thousands of miles from our land. Social conservatives want the focus on America and the decline in morality they see here.
As far as "asking jr to have you banned," I disagree. I asked you to self-evaluate your comments to other posters, which I think you have done a good job of doing in the last few weeks. It is one thing to excoriate a public figure like a Kerry or a Bush; it is quite another to blast little people like us, who are just trying to make sense of the world, just like you.
If I wanted to "tattle-tale," I would do so in an email to jr.
Which I have never done.
I agree that there will be "feel-good" liberals (and I suspect more than a few conservatives) who will shell out a few bucks this weekend for Live 8. Good for them; let's hope the concerts spawn a lifetime of charitable works.
Without tooting my own horn, I have to add that many people do thankless jobs out of sight of the general public to reduce hunger, poverty, and disease. Let's try to remember them this weekend, instead of getting miffed at the suburbanites with guilty consciences who latch onto Live 8 to salve their souls.
posted by historymike at 01:18 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 30, 2005 #
It'd be nice if the jobs "we" provide to all those nice people overseas were actually worth something more than working 16 hours in a sweatshop with no bathroom breaks sewing the N*k* "sw**sh" on shoes or making Ab*rcr*mb** or T*mmy H*lf*g*r or *ld N*vy sweaters. I don't see how that's way much better, especially when they find out that they're making 2000 $45 sweaters or 5000 $150 pairs of sneakers a day and making $2 for that day.
Smells like exploitation to me.
You conservatives whip out a can of frosting and try to spackle over this by saying "hey, at least they're not forced to sleep in a mud hut with the family pig"... but I believe in karma, and that this will come around to bite us in the ass when we least expect it, just like how the unions got greedy and corrupt and actually drove some of the jobs away. Now the corporations are back to being greedy and corrupt and it'll bite them soon again -- remember them getting bit by the strikes that started organized labor? Wait until it happens overseas. Imagine what the effects of internal strife in China would do to the markets and the price of cheap plastic crap at Mall*Wart.
posted by anonymouscoward at 02:42 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 30, 2005 #
Dammit, A/C, I had just gotten over my last case of anti-multinational-itis.
I feel the fever hitting me again...rotten global corporations...grrr...grrr...grrr...
Some great lines there in your post, my friend. Yes, what would Americana do without its "cheap plastic crap" from WalMart?
Like sheep, we go to consumerist tumors like WalMart and buy all sorts of useless junk.
Gotta post this Onion piece, if no one has seen it, from June 15, 2005 (Note: For those of you unfamiliar with The Onion be aware that this is satire, and these are not real stories. Just really funny):
Chinese Factory Worker Can't believe The Shit He Makes For Americans
FENGHUA, CHINA—Chen Hsien, an employee of Fenghua Ningbo Plastic Works Ltd., a plastics factory that manufactures lightweight household items for Western markets, expressed his disbelief Monday over the "sheer amount of shit Americans will buy."
"Often, when we're assigned a new order for, say, 'salad shooters,' I will say to myself, 'There's no way that anyone will ever buy these,'" Chen said during his lunch break in an open-air courtyard. "One month later, we will receive an order for the same product, but three times the quantity. How can anyone have a need for such useless shit?"
Chen, 23, who has worked as an injection-mold operator at the factory since it opened in 1996, said he frequently asks himself these questions during his workweek, which exceeds 60 hours and earns him the equivalent of $21.
"I hear that Americans can buy anything they want, and I believe it, judging from the things I've made for them," Chen said. "And I also hear that, when they no longer want an item, they simply throw it away. So wasteful and contemptible."
Among the items that Chen has helped create are plastic-bag dispensers, microwave omelet cookers, glow-in-the-dark page magnifiers, Christmas-themed file baskets, animal-shaped contact-lens cases, and adhesive-backed wall hooks.
"Sometimes, an item the factory produces resembles nothing I've ever seen," Chen said. "One time, we made something that looked like a ladle, but it had holes in its cup and a handle that bent down 90 degrees. The foreman told us that it was a soda-can holder for an automobile. If you are lucky enough to own a car, sit back and enjoy the journey. Save the soda beverage for later."
Chen added: "A cup holder is not a necessary thing to own."
Chen expressed similar confusion over the tens of thousands of pineapple corers, plastic eyeshades, toothpick dispensers, and dog pull-toys that he has helped manufacture.
"Why the demand for so many kitchen gadgets?" Chen said. "I can understand having a good wok, a rice cooker, a tea kettle, a hot plate, some utensils, good china, a teapot with a strainer, and maybe a thermos. But all these extra things—where do the Americans put them? How many times will you use a taco-shell holder? 'Oh, I really need this silverware-drawer sorter or I will have fits.' Shut up, stupid American."
Chen added that many of the items break after only a few uses.
"None are built to last very long," Chen said. "That is probably so the Americans can return to buy more. Not even the badly translated assembly instructions deter them. If I bought a kitchen item that came with such poor Mandarin instructions, I would return the item immediately."
May Gao of the Hong Kong-based labor-advocacy group China Labour Bulletin said complaints like Chen's are common among workers in China's bustling industrial cities.
"Last week, I took testimony from several young female workers from Shenzhen who said they were locked in a work room for 18 straight hours making inflatable Frisbees," Gao said. "Finally, the girls joined hands on the factory floor and began to chant, 'No more insane flying toys for Western pigs!' They quickly lost their jobs and were ostracized by their families, but the incident was a testament to China's growing disillusionment with producing needless crap for fat-ass foreigners."
Continued Gao: "As Chinese manufacturing and foreign investment continue to grow, and more silly novelty products are invented, we can expect to see more of these protests."
In the meantime, Chen continues to stew in bitterness. Though he dislikes his work, competition for manufacturing jobs in Fenghua is stiff and he must support his wife, mother, and 2-year-old son.
"My cousin Yuen is self-employed," Chen said. "He disassembles old computers that are acquired from overseas and extracts the traces of valuable gold and silver from the circuit boards. He asked me to join him. The work is very toxic, but at least I would not be looking at suction-cup razor holders and jumbo-dice keychains all day."
Chen added: "For now, I must refuse the job. Somehow, the only thing more depressing than making plastic shit for Americans is destroying the plastic shit they send back."
posted by historymike at 03:04 P.M. EST on Thu Jun 30, 2005 #
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