AC - when Vern Riffe was charged, did you call for his impeachment???
He was charged with ethics violations alot more serious than "failing to report." But no one called for him to be impeached when he was Speaker of the House!
And what about Sandy Isenberg??? She got a free roof and didn't even get charged - not even with failing to report! Did you call for her removal from office or prosecution?
And then there's Telb...the prosecutor, and even the auditors, said he violated the law for paying out more in sick time to his staff than the law allowed - clearly a violation of Ohio Law, but no one's calling for his prosecution or impeachment!
Don't take this as a defense of Taft - he should face the charges and accept any penalties. I'm just saying that we need to be consistent in how we treat these politicians - not having one standard for the Republicans and another one for the Democrats!!!
posted by intrepid at 04:33 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
I'm just saying that we need to be consistent in how we treat these politicians - not having one standard for the Republicans and another one for the Democrats!!!
No.
They need one standard, and that is to be absolutely totally honest to the public. None of this stuff where the person who screwed up gets off lightly because s/he is a member of the Party in Charge and so they let the issue slide or bury it, and no bloody witch-hunts when the person who screwed up is not a member of the Party in Charge.
posted by anonymouscoward at 05:10 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
Explain to me why the politicans here in Toledo get away with as much as they do and not be held to the same standard as State Officials? Where's the outcry here?
If you truly believe the handful of politicans here in Toledo aren't taking total advantage of their positions and getting their hands muddier than Bob Taft's, I've got a steamplant to sell you.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 05:45 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
I agree with Brian and Intrepid on this one, name one Democrat that demanded KHM step down or resign in City Council.
I'm tired of the "OH LOOK WHAT HE DID" then the explainaing away of when it's done on the other side.
If you really want people to believe you follow ethics? Demand it of your own party before you go after the other side.
So Republicans? Deal with Taft. Democrats? You've got several to make an example of pick one.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 06:29 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
Yep. In Lucas County a Democrat falls under the infamous rubric developed by Louisiana governor Edwin Edwards:
"The only way I can lose this election is if I'm caught in bed with either a dead girl or a live boy."
posted by historymike at 06:42 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
"Better a lizard than a wizard."
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 06:47 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
Taft admits to new ethics charges; Toledo Tales has the scoop:
http://toledotales.blogspot.com/2005/08/governor-taft-admits-further-ethics.html
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 07:51 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
I'm no fan of Taft, as I think he is a Republican in name only, but my reaction to the charges? Big effing deal.
posted by JeepMaker at 08:52 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
Bob Taft absolutely needs to be charged. He needs to be charged for being a dumbass, and running the state's economy into the ground with his tax and spend policies. If that's not a crime it should be.
But to charge him for a few rounds of golf? Laaaaaaaaame!
posted by paddington at 09:06 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
It's all UTTER NONSENSE!
posted by ajeepthing at 09:19 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
Well...
If it gets Taft outa our hair...
The only good RHINO is an out of office RHINO.
But, I don't really think that Boob Tax (with apologies to Denny Schaffer) is smart enough to take the hint...
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 10:02 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
What I'd like to know is how this turned from a $215 million BWC/Coingate scandal into a nickel and dime ethics disclosure scandal...
Doesn't this smell like a containment? Bob Taft is the sacrificial lamb being given up in order to distract us from the elephant in the living room.
Why are we ignorning the Noe/Taft connection? What about Taft appointing Noe to sensitive positions in Ohio government (Board of Regents) so that Noe can place himself on the ground floor of companies like Hi-Genomics? Noe would've carried on with that activity until Ohio Ethics Commission kaiboshed the arrangement because Coingate was getting too hot.
But let's keep worrying about Bobby's golf outings...
On second thought - maybe I better shut up about that - or they'll throw me back in jail.
posted by ErieVoices at 10:26 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
Paddington wrote: Bob Taft absolutely needs to be charged. He needs to be charged for being a dumbass, and running the state's economy into the ground with his tax and spend policies. If that's not a crime it should be.
Do you feel the same way about our local democrats who are running Toledo/Lucas County into the ground with their tax and spend policies????
Just pointing out, as I did in my first post here, that we need to make sure we're not being hypocritical ourselves!
posted by intrepid at 07:09 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
ErieVoices - according to what I've read in multiple publications, Noe asked the Ethics Commission for an advisory opinion on the Hi-Genomics investment and that he went into that arrangment pending the ruling. This was also long before any hint of scandal with the coins. I also understand that Noe and Dr. Goldman had been friends for a very long time, so it wasn't Noe's Board of Regents position that allowed him to know about this project...
Considering all the trouble you've documented, I would think you'd check the timeline better.
posted by intrepid at 07:13 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
"Do you feel the same way about our local democrats who are running Toledo/Lucas County into the ground with their tax and spend policies????"
Good point. A study from last fall ranked Toledo 195th out of 200 cities for economic and job performance. The locals politicians get most of the credit for this fine achievement.
posted by jr at 10:20 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
Jr: This is NOT Lady Phoenix, this is her husband Mr. Phoenix, and I am so ANGRY right now and I don't have the time to create a new account. Just letting you know, 'cause my lovely wife doesn't normally curse, but I DO!!!
During the "Breaking News" Coverage, Taft's eyes were flickering. Know why? It's because he could barely control his laughter @ that jive-ass turkey of a judge rendering a judgment of NO jail time, a penny fine, and "an apology to the Ohio taxpayers". That is FUCKIN' nice...I feel sooooooooooo much better now...I can't stand this stupid-ass state, but mostly I can't stand the stupid-ass voters who vote for shitheads like Taft, knowing FULL WELL that if HALF of those charges were against the common man/woman, we'd get buried UNDER THE JAIL!
man, ohio SUCKS
posted by MrsPhoenix at 10:21 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
Mr Phoenix, I feel your pain, and all I can say is Florida doesn't take state or local taxes from your paycheck, and for the 15 years I've been here, sans a hurricane or two, it's been nice and peaceful. But I have to say "#(&^ YOU!" to the geniuses that renamed Riverside Park.
Republican or Democrat, as an elected official, you're held to a higher standard only because of the power you wield. Bob Taft screwed Ohio over and there's nothing you can do about it. He SHOULD have been handed TWICE the sentence, including JAIL TIME, for violating the trust Ohio voters bestowed upon him.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 02:13 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
Much ado about nothing.
posted by JeepMaker at 03:42 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
**** A new front page topic about Taft and his court appearance was moved here as a comment. The Taft topic here was started two days ago. No need for a new one so soon. I don't care if people don't like it, but I'm going to continue to insist that similar info like this be kept in the same topic, especially when the original topic is not even two days old.
Here is the new topic that was deleted from the front page and moved here as a comment:
----
Taft Stands Up Like A REAL Man - Bob Taft stood up like a real man and took responsibilty for what he did. No lies. No bullshit. I for one am happy to know we have a REAL man who will stand up and take responsibility for his actions and not pussy-foot around the truth. THANK YOU REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR BOB TAFT!
posted by fequalsma73 to politics at August 19, 2005 7:22 A.M. EST
----
**** The comments for the above topic were also moved here:
----
Comments ...
Ummmm....
you're joking...right??
Lady Phoenix
posted by MrsPhoenix at 07:32 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005
----
Must be. For a leader who told his subordinates they could either quit or be fired for their ethics problems, he sure does have a different standard for himself.
Taft should quit now and save some face.
posted by anonymouscoward at 07:35 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005
----
Taft has stated that he NEVER knew that Noe had any business with the state. My question...if one is effective in office and keeping a finger on the pulse of affairs in his/her state, how can he/she want us to think they didn't have a clue that Noe was in business/bed with the state?
The golf outings are secondary to me. My primary concern is that we (Ohioans) have a Governor that wants us to believe that he didn't have any idea of how the states' money was being invested. This speaks volumes....
That fact that Taft operates on a VERY obvious double standard also sends large red flags that there are more 'skeletons' that have yet to surface.
Regardless of party, Taft should step down and allow the people of Ohio to heal. Taft has taxed us into near disaster, has lied to his constituency, has assumed that we are all idiots, and now wants us to believe that his performance of contrition is sincere.
Guess I'm way too much of a cynic to believe in that. My grandma always said "It's easy to let those crocodile tears flow when you know you've messed up." While Taft had no visible tears, the act was the same. Pure hoodwinking.
Just my opinion - and we are all entitled to ours....
posted by DoknowDocare at 08:35 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005
----
posted by jr at 08:13 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
I think a "r5eal man" - whatever that means these days - would have pleaded "guilty," not "no contest."
In my mind, the "no contest" plea is a weasel-ish legal maneuver that has mostly selfish goals. If Taft were truly taking his lumps, he would have entered a guilty plea.
Also, Taft's supposed mea culpa is filled with legalistic qualifiers, such as "I did not establish an adequate system to monitor the value of golf outings and other social events" and " my self-reported mistakes did not constitute a purposeful violation of law..."
Fullt text of Taft's rhetorical tapdance:
http://governor.ohio.gov/releases/081808Statement.htm
This was a watered-down pseudo-apology that sounded like it was edited by lawyers.
posted by historymike at 10:00 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
First of all I am not defending Taft. He could have paid for all this golf, etc. with the money he carries in his wallet.
Having said that many people in power get so many freebies they begin to expect it. Honestly, he's probably shocked it turned out the way it did. It doesn't help that places like Inverness - among many - are glad to give away their products because it improves their prestige.
We are in a celebrity culture as well. We permit our politicians and sports and movie stars to get away with anything. That is until our own economic situation is threatened (high gas prices for example). Then all of a sudden there is a hue and cry about the unfairness of it all.
Let me repeat - I am not defending Taft. I just wonder how many of us would have taken the opportunity to golf with him....
posted by thinkingwoman at 06:44 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
I agree, thinkingwoman, that unreported golfing seems to be a pretty minor offense.
Golf is very accepted in the business world as a legitimate activity, as some use the time to negotiate deals, network, and so forth.
(historymike is a terrible golfer, especially with the irons, and that may be why he was not a rousing success as an entrepreneur)
If we had to watch the Taft name get destroyed, one would expect it would be for a more serious offense.
posted by historymike at 07:20 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
So I looked up the ethics form and what you have to report. You are required to report the source of any gift or gifts that total - for the entire year - more than $75. You are not required to reports gifts from family members, including your in-laws.
So, if your friend gives you a birthday present, and a Christmas present and together they total more than $75, you're required to report that person's name on the form. You do not have to list the gift(s) nor the value - just the name of the person giving it to you.
Now, I was always brought up that you don't ask how much a gift is worth, so with this reasoning, you'd pretty much have to list most gift-givers if just to be safe.
Heaven forbid that you get married or have a baby while in office - can you imagine including all those names on your form?
It seems to me, the reporting requirement is a bit extreme...how many of us who are married take turns with another couple going out to dinner...we often pay for food one time and drinks the next - our friends do the opposite. Thank goodness I'm not an elected official...I don't know if I could keep track of something like that for a full year!
Not to defend Taft - but when you're golfing with your buddies, do you keep track of who actually paid for the meal and drinks?
posted by intrepid at 07:55 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
When I was in a position as a business owner for people to actually want to schmooze me, nope. Never kept track of any of that stuff.
In fact, I gladly lapped up any and all freebies - concert tickets, golf, dinners, hockey/football/basketball tickets, bottles of booze - you name it, I snagged it, but there was no way I was telling the Infernal Residue Servants (that oughta confuse Google).
Now that I am not in a position to be bribed/wooed/enticed, it's a non-issue for me.
But then again, I was not an elected official with millions of eyes on me. I was a run-of-the-mill business owner who only wanted to make money.
posted by historymike at 08:40 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
intrepid, did the form state the year this was put into effect?
posted by thinkingwoman at 08:40 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
Intrepid: Not to defend Taft - but when you're golfing with your buddies, do you keep track of who actually paid for the meal and drinks?
If I was a public official, under the thumb of ethics laws, yes I would.
If you were a public official, I'd demand that you'd do the same.
If there were no ethics laws, I would still be very careful about things like this anyway. The appearance of a conflict of interest IS a conflict of interest, and the appearance of a bribe IS a bribe, as far as a politician's relationship with the public goes. You have to demonstrate that you're trustworthy. Scumbags don't bother with such distinctions.
At any rate, anyone who has done group events like a round of golf with the buds, would well be familiar with the "who paid last time" friendly argument. People keep track of these things all the time. So why was Taft so nonchalant?
According to the Blade, these 4 charges stemmed from a much larger set of "oopsies" on Taft's part, running 6 years. These show a pattern of uncaring behavior on the part of Taft. By that alone, he demonstrates that he's unfit for public office.
He should resign. Coleman* agrees. David Zanotti (president of the Ohio Roundtable) agrees.
In my rights as a Ohio citizen, I'm drafting a letter to my state rep, urging him to consider opening an Impeachment upon Gov. Taft in accordance to the Ohio Constitution for his clearly unqualified personal status as the Governor of Ohio.
And I haven't even touched upon all the rest of Taft's enormous personal problems while allegedly governing this state. Heck, instead of "governing", Taft ran this state into the ground and could ONLY think about rewarding his Republican buds and donors while jobs fled by the tens of thousands, natural gas prices skyrocketed, the electrical infrastructure was turned into a free-market cash cow, autism rates skyrocketed, etc.
Ohio is the laughingstock of the nation. The longer we keep a clearly inept and unqualified man in the state's highest office, the longer we prolong our agony. The longer we keep OUR MONEY in risky investments, the deeper we dig our economic grave.
* And, NO, Intrepid, I'd never cast a vote for Coleman.
posted by GuestZero at 11:54 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 19, 2005 #
Thinkingwoman - I know the form goes back at least 10 years, but I didn't notice anything on the Sec. of State website that talked about when it was instituted.
GuestZero - I agree that an elected official has to keep track of things like who paid for golf...your point about who's turn it is to pay is precisely the point...according to what I understood about the ethics form - it doesn't matter if you and your friends are taking turns paying - you'd still have to declare every time you didn't pay as a gift - regardless of the arrangments...guess it was more of a rhetorical question.
And I separate out Taft as a bad governor from any resignation or impeachment issues...we get bad elected officials all the time - it's our choice and they shouldn't have to resign just because we put them into a position they may not be qualified to handle.
This other stuff is a different animal than just incompetence.
posted by intrepid at 07:13 A.M. EST on Sat Aug 20, 2005 #
Coleman ! ha! the liberal jackoff responsible for Columbus's so-called assault weapon ban. That alone proves he's too stupid to deserve an opinion. All these gun laws, do people ever stop to think that a criminal couldn't care less about laws? That means, those laws are in reality, directed at the law-abiding citizen. Now, why would they do that unless it was to keep the average joe citizen safely under their control?
The wise Thomas Jefferson said; No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
posted by JeepMaker at 09:02 A.M. EST on Sat Aug 20, 2005 #
These are of the MOST LAME CHARGES, kind of brings me way back in time, where, Al Capone was finally caught up with of all charges Income Tax Fraud!
Not comparing Taft to Capone, just comparison as to Lame both charges are, when we all know, it's much bigger than this!
posted by lets_talk_serious at 03:27 P.M. EST on Sun Aug 21, 2005 #
These are of the MOST LAME CHARGES, kind of brings me way back in time, where, Al Capone was finally caught up with of all charges Income Tax Fraud!
Not comparing Taft to Capone, just comparison as to Lame both charges are, when we all know, it's much bigger than this!
If you can't make an air-tight case to get them for what they're really doing, get them for something you CAN make an air-tight case for.
posted by anonymouscoward at 11:43 P.M. EST on Sun Aug 21, 2005 #
anonymouscoward...I disagree...with Taft...if it's more than GOLFING EXPENSES...it should be investigated and he should be CHARGED with the GREATER CRIME...
Al Capone...well it's a bit too late to investigate and charge him with the GREATER CRIME!
These charges against Taft are LAME...as to what possibly could be...
posted by MARIELORA at 11:52 P.M. EST on Sun Aug 21, 2005 #
MoveOnTaft.org
You can even get a MoveOnTaft.org t-shirt.
posted by jr at 06:55 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 26, 2005 #
Well, the Blade has it that Taft was cracking jokes about Noe and rare coins at a roast of Noe LAST YEAR... but Taft still maintains he didn't know a thing about Noe and the coins until he read it in the Blade THIS year.
Ladies and gentlemen, proof that Taft is a liar.
Impeach him. Now.
posted by anonymouscoward at 08:32 A.M. EST on Sat Aug 27, 2005 #
Yes, Get Taft on the GREATER CHARGES...we all KNEW there was more than GOLFING EXPENSES!!!
posted by MARIELORA at 05:17 P.M. EST on Sat Aug 27, 2005 #
Question: how many people knew that Noe dealt in coins? (most people should raise their hands!)
Question: how many people knew the foundation of the coin fund was BWC money? (probably only a limited number in Columbus)
NOTE - these questions are not to imply what Taft knew or when, merely to raise the point that just because everyone knew about the coin fund doesn't mean that everyone also knew about the BWC investment.
That's the question that needs to be asked and answered, but I don't believe our local paper will do that - they're too busy implying that knowledge of one equals knowledge of the other (which is a fallacy in and of itself).
posted by intrepid at 08:18 A.M. EST on Sun Aug 28, 2005 #
I think the overreaching issue is the huge aggregate losses at BWC. Taft should have known about that. If he didn't then his entire staff should be fired for not telling him.
If the Blade were truly concerned about the failure of BWC's fund management we would be hearing about far more than Noe. For example why haven't we heard the Fifth Third explanation for their horrible losses? Why hasn't there been a timeline? Where are the articles about the Fifth Third leadership and the decline of its legacy?
I am not defending Noe. Still his $13 million vs. hundreds of millions lost by others is small. Why aren't we hearing about that?
I agree with intrepid: I don't believe our local paper will do that
posted by thinkingwoman at 11:42 A.M. EST on Sun Aug 28, 2005 #
Fifth Third Bank is a Cincinnati corporation, and as such is relatively unreachable and untouchable as far as Toledoans are concerned. Imagine if JRB directed his Blade Attack Force upon 5/3. All of a sudden, JRB is "against" the so-called economic revitalization (note: I'm laughing hysterically as I type this) represented in the downtown area, which inescapably is tied up with the area around Fifth Third Field.
I don't imagine the Blade will ever hang the bank since they are philosophically behind them on the "downtown redevelopment" scam.
As for Noe, he was probably low-hanging "Republicrime" fruit. The Blade obviously had something on the entire affair due to the pointed articles they published for months. They probably had inside information that neatly sewed up his criminality, like with the Campaign to Discredit Ray Kest.
I only wish that the Blade would examine Ford's administration as stringently as it did Noe's criminal enterprise. It's not like paper and people are really so limited at the Blade. Investigating Ford would involve paying no auto mileage and airfare whatsoever ... the reporters could just walk to various government buildings in downtown Toledo and start demanding records ... and when refused (natch), they can just walk over to the courthouses and start filing the lawsuits. They could then just park their cars by various government buildings in stake-outs as Ford's administration hurriedly trashes incriminating records. Etc.
posted by GuestZero at 03:33 P.M. EST on Sun Aug 28, 2005 #
I do too wish the Blade would examine the Ford adminstration!
posted by ajeepthing at 07:30 P.M. EST on Sun Aug 28, 2005 #
GuestZero - love the picture you paint... too bad it's all a dream...
posted by intrepid at 12:04 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 29, 2005 #
I'd rather see the Blade or someone investigate something more important and much worse than Ford and that would be Toledo Public Schools. Ford can only be mayor for four or eight years, but TPS has been around for decades. How can TPS be allowed to employ an extreme racist like Rahwae Shuman. Taxpayer dollars are going to an extremist who calls white people the enemy. Is he still at TPS?
Some of Shuman's gems:
"No other race in history has turned their children over to the enemy to be educated."
"Our leadership has been bought out by our enemies, white people control the NAACP! You should be concerned; your child is spending eight hours a day with someone who considers them a slave."
posted by jr at 04:48 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 29, 2005 #
A bit over the top, isn't he?
While I agree that there are still areas in which African Americans have not achieved true equality, I do not personally know any white racists, and racist white groups are now looked upon by mainstream America as either lunatics or domestic terrorists.
Shuman's remarks do not help heal racial division, but keep people apart. While I am a relentless advocate for free speech, I am saddened that this sort of ignorant race-baiting is allowed to pass for intelligent thought.
Can you imagine the furor over a white teacher making similar statements? That person would be lucky to avoid prosecution for inciting a riot; the same hypothetical individual would also be fortunate not to get a severe (and deserved) butt-whooping.
I suggest that the best way to counter loudmouths like Shuman is to simply ignore them, and trust that the parents of his students can provide balance to this sort of idiocy.
posted by historymike at 05:33 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 29, 2005 #
Shuman is teaching children?...we will always have racism as long as there people such as he and the ministers that count posters at malls, employees at the zoo...
What would happen to me...a white person, if I made comments of such?
I had thought the goal of the Black Race was to immigrate...
Remind this Shuman what Martin Luther Kings's Dream was...
posted by MARIELORA at 06:01 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 29, 2005 #
I don't think Shuman teaches children, but he has no problem speaking on behalf of the kids. At least for some of the kids. I believe Shuman only teaches adults, which is a program that's part of TPS. Taxpayer-funded. Yeah right, he teaches adults. Probably more like he brainwashes adults. I'd like to attend one of his classes. Shuman can say and act in any extremist way he wants as long as his salary is not coming from the taxpayers. I wonder how many more Shumans exist in TPS?
posted by jr at 06:54 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 29, 2005 #
Forget about Shuman...what about Larry Sykes? Wasn't he the one who, as a school board member, wrote an essay in the paper saying we should outlaw the words blackball, blackboard and such because black kids only hear negatives about themselves? As if every word or phrase that contains the word "black" had a negative connotation...what about such a phrase as 'whitewash'? Didn't see him say that's bad for white kids because of the negative connotation...just goes to show you what passes for leadership these days!
posted by intrepid at 10:10 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 29, 2005 #
It just doesn't stop and unfortunately many learn from the likes of Shuman and Larry Sykes...
Even on the job...we have to be careful as to how we use words...there's a few that will take a comment, word and twist it into a raciest remark, causing MUCH grief Human Resources are called...
Maybe...I should be offended that our UAW Camp, is called...Black Lake...maybe I should ask it be changed to...Rainbow Lake...
It's all nonsense, all of it...just makes the ones that make an issue out of an innocent word...TROUBLE...my thinking...
Martin Luther King would be PROUD to see how successful his RACE has come...Government Officials, Business Owners, Corporate Heads, Police, Teachers, etc.
posted by MARIELORA at 07:03 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 30, 2005 #
Actually, I think Dr. King would be sorely disappointed that his mission to have us judged by the content of our characters had turned into quotas based upon the color of our skins.
posted by intrepid at 02:09 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 30, 2005 #
but I also believe he'd be proud of those who've succeeded by believing that their character mattered more than their color - and living in that manner as well.
posted by intrepid at 02:10 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 30, 2005 #
intrepid, you're probably right...
Bill Cosby tried to talk to the Black Race...well...we know that his comments were booooood
posted by MARIELORA at 04:49 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 30, 2005 #
Syndicate ToledoTalk
