New version of Toledo Talk

The Rise and Fall of the Turd Right - Due to recent postings, I grew intrigued by the alleged statements made by Hermann Goering, during the Nuremberg Trials period. The quote famously attributed to him (starting "Of course the people don't want war ...") originated not from the transcripts of the trials, but from a diary entry by Gustave Gilbert, a prison psychologist assigned to assist in monitoring morale and assure orderly discipline at trial. This diary was put into book form as the "Nuremberg Diary".

I obtained the book from the main library in downtown Toledo, and found the quote almost immediately by looking in the index under "Goering: attitudes on aggression and war". I confirmed that this piece was correctly quoted, on this board and in all other outlets that I've seen it over the years ... including the time it was used by Barbra Streisand.

What motivated me to write this article were the OTHER things that Goering said and did within the hearing and sight of Gilbert. All emphases used below are mine, as well as all typos. The first person viewpoint is of course Gilbert's.

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p.202, Goering's Cell: Goering was very tired from the strain of the past three days' testimony. His defense being almost completed, he was already moodily brooding over his destiny and speculating on his role in history. Humanitarianism had become a thorn in his side, and he cynically rejected it as a threat to his future greatness. The empire of Genghis Khan, the Roman Empire, and even the British Empire were not built up with due regard for principles of humanity, he expostulated with weary bitterness -- but they achieved greatness in their time and have won a respected place in history. I reiterated that the world was becoming a little too sophisticated in the 20th century to regard war and murder as the signs of greatness. He squirmed and scoffed and rejected the idea as the sentimental idealism of an American who could afford such a self-delusion after America had hacked its way to a rich Lebensraum by revolution, massacre, and war. He clearly would tolerate no maudlin sentimentality to crab his entrance act in Valhalla.
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p.199, Lunch Hour: [...] Surveying the Hitler policy, he repeated that Hitler had tried to do too much too fast; and that he tried to force in 10 years what might have been achieved in 100 years, because he was afraid that anybody who came after him might not have the energy and persistence to see it through. Goering thought that the Danzig Corridor problem, for instance, could have been solved peacefully with a little more patience.
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p.70, the section marked "Extermination in Poland":

Lunch Hour: Hitler was the subject of conmversation both at [Hans] Frank's table and Goering's table. At the former, [Rudolph] Hess and [Joachim von] Ribbentrop had both raised the question whether Hitler had known about all those things. Frank scornfully replied that it would have been impossible otherwise. He insisted that it was Hitler's direct command.

In the meantime, [Field Marshal] Keitel had apparently raised the issue at Goering's table as to whether the Fuhrer shouldn't have stood by his followers and assumed responsibility for his commands. "Oh, but after all, think of his position," said Goering, trying desperately to stem the open defection in the ranks.

"Sure, the position of the chief war criminal!" I said, standing between the two tables.

"Be that as it may, he was our sovereign. It would be intolerable for me to have him standing before a foreign court. You men knew the Fuhrer. He would be the first one to stand up and say, 'I have given the orders, and I take full responsibility.' But I would rather die 10 deaths than have the German sovereign subjected to such humiliation." The others did not seem at all impressed by this dramatic loyalty.

Frank retorted across the tables, "Other sovereigns have stood before courts of law!" hurling open defiance at Goering for the first time since the trial started. His face was red with mounting rage. "He got us into this, and all that there is left is to tell the truth!"
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I read things like this, and I think of Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Fallujah, Baghdad, and the entire travesty of the Neo-Con takeover of the American government apparatus. America is being led by war criminals who simply haven't had their Nuremberg Trials yet.
posted by GuestZero to politics at 5:56 P.M. EST     (27 Comments)

Comments ...

I copied the following statement by Goring it is his comment on government and the people...

Göring: Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
posted by MARIELORA at 08:47 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 08, 2005     #

Why would you start a new thread on an existing topic? Would you be running away from something?
posted by AirTrainer at 10:07 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 08, 2005     #

I've lost my Internet connection and have struggled to keep up. I'll check the other thread.
posted by GuestZero at 06:21 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005     #

Guest Zero:

Just what is a Neo Con?
posted by MemyselfandI at 07:54 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005     #

To define "neocon", start with PNAC.
posted by anonymouscoward at 09:38 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005     #

Sorry Coward. I'm a little dense. You'll have to explain that one.
posted by MemyselfandI at 09:58 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005     #

That's "AnonymousCoward" to you. Grow up.
posted by anonymouscoward at 10:09 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005     #

Allow me to help here. My fellow poster, GuestZero, is one of my favorites. He is referring to a philosophy that can be partially explained by this definition. PNAC is covered here as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_(United_States)


There’s a lot of reading to do here! The real truth is almost always deeper than a bumper sticker!

This could be broken down further into several names of current government officials who share certain beliefs and ideas. You know how it is here in America. When your ideas' work for you, they regard you as a hero. When your ideas' backfire, you are regarded as a bum! I agree with some conservative ideas, with one glaring exception. The part about everyone taking care of themselves, and dog eat dog capitalism. (a.k.a. using virtual slave labor to replace entire societies, and their means of sustaining themselves) A just society will look out for it's weaker members. It will also invest in them, and help them to become more productive. This means a little bit of wealth sharing. I also believe that the public good must be served to a certain extent by corporations. In no way do I support a Communist type society. I would be inclined to support the Scandinavian model, if anyone chose to study that.

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2005/11/26/21135/437

http://www.sitra.fi/eng/index.asp?DirID=68&DocID=2089

Yet, there must be some balance, to keep the rapacious greed of the rich, from destroying those lesser, and unable to fight back. We can start by having fair tax policy, and stop the giveaways to the rich, and the military budget, that is over-bloated and not audited properly. I would say that 2 trillion dollars missing is somewhat of a problem.

I believe this country needs to focus on more domestic issues, and not on every foreign land and their problems. Who ever made us the world's policeman anyways? Don't get me started asking questions! Like, why are we still defending South Korea against North Korea, (original reason being fear of the aggression, of the Communist North Koreans)? Yet we are trading in a massive deficit with the same country (China) that helped North Korea to slaughter our troops in the Korean War? What's next? A Free Trade Agreement with North Korea? Perhaps they would work for a nickel an hour! What a tremendous achievement this would be for our greedy corporations! They could use the virtually free labor of the oppressed masses there, to destroy liberty itself. Which thereby begs the question of just who is our government for? Are they working for us? Or, are they working on behalf of the corporations?

Here's another wild idea! Let's start paying our bills, instead of borrowing money. Is this too hard to understand? The pain would be immediate.

Here's another question. Why is it that only the little people are being tried and sentenced, and (doing actual prison time) for Abu Ghraib? I guess the people at the top had nothing to do with any of it! I'm sure glad I answered that correctly!


P.S. I'm not trying to jump into every war others fight.I do like the postings of GuestZero, (and U2 ac) and he has the right to speak his mind. I’m not quite as far left as some are, but the extreme right wing is no solution either. This may sound radical, but I want a U.S.A. that takes care of our own country first, before we try to tell the rest of the world how to live. There are those other countries that don’t want to live as we do. That’s their right to choose that.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 10:37 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005     #

Ok Coward who is Anonymous. . . What is PNAC?

I read the Wikipedia definition of Neocon and it told me what I already knew: that nobody really knows what it means. Liberals throw it around as a pejorative.

I think I first read it in the early 1990s to describe those who came of age during the Reagan years who rejected Bush 41's liberalism and desired a return to Reagan's version of conservatism.
posted by MemyselfandI at 10:48 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005     #

"I want a U.S.A. that takes care of our own country first, before we try to tell the rest of the world how to live."

So no more federal aid to the rest of the world, right? Keep all the money in the U.S. Take care of all the sick, the poor, the hungry, the homeless, and the illiterate in the U.S. first. Then if any money is leftover, send it to wherever in the world. Is that what I'm hearing?
posted by jr at 11:14 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005     #

So no more federal aid to the rest of the world, right? Keep all the money in the U.S. Take care of all the sick, the poor, the hungry, the homeless, and the illiterate in the U.S. first. Then if any money is leftover, send it to wherever in the world. Is that what I'm hearing?
posted by jr at 11:14 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005

If I said that's approximately how I feel, then how would you respond?
posted by anonymouscoward at 11:28 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005     #

Ok Coward who is Anonymous

Grow further up.
posted by anonymouscoward at 11:30 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005     #

Ok Coward who is Anonymous. . . What is PNAC?

I read the Wikipedia definition of Neocon

LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!

IF you read it, you would know what PNAC is, it's mentioned and linked to right there in the article.

Allow me to attack you in the fashion as AirTrainer did me:

DO YOU KNOW HOW TO READ? DO YOU KNOW WHAT A LINK IS?

The article says PNAC right in the third paragraph.

You are an outright moron, and JR should revoke your posting priveleges.

Sheesh.
posted by anonymouscoward at 11:37 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005     #

"If I said that's approximately how I feel, then how would you respond?"

I would probably respond by saying I'd either agree or disagree with you.
posted by jr at 11:51 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005     #

Coward,

They have pills for disorders such as yours.

Somtimes it helps to talk about it. Tell us, did you hate your father?
posted by MemyselfandI at 12:50 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005     #

Coward,

I've heard that old missive about solving our problems at home first, blah blah blah. That is pretty limited thinking.

That's like the knuckle dragging organ banks who think it is clever to say "We have enough problems here on Earth," when they talk about the space program.

Our "problems at home" aren't really solvable by government. We've thrown lots of money at them and they continue unabated. Let's spend it on kicking some terrorist ass!
posted by MemyselfandI at 12:55 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005     #

Coward,

They have pills for disorders such as yours.

Fixing what's wrong with you would require your retroactive abortion.

Anyway, you should get to sleep... don't want you missing your chance to show off your nice brown shirt later today, after all....
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:08 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005     #

Taking care of our own country entails much more than sending money abroad.The Chairman of our Federal Reserve admitted that we have "lost control" of our budget deficit.
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2005/09/grownup_republi.html
I introduced this topic earlier, (Thanks to those who commented) This is actually one serious problem.These numbers are incomprehensible to the average American. A trillion here and a trillion there, and so what? We have a military that cannot account for billions of dollars. We have a Congress that passes, and a President that routinely signs, massive pork laden spending bills which are paid for with "borrowed money". The truth of the matter is, that if we were to attempt to rein in our spending, and achieve a balanced budget, there would not be enough money to send any abroad. And not even enough, to cover our own bills here at home.We as a nation, are in hock up to our eyebrows.Those spending borrowed money, and rewarding corporations for fleeing our shores, while cutting the taxes of the super-rich, are sowing the seeds of a national calamity.We all need to become more aware as citizens how our money is being spent, and demand accountability for it. We have a responsibility to future generations of Americans to leave this country in good shape for them.

Case in point: The Katrina Recovery Bill. Loaded with billions of extra dollars for unnecessary purposes.

http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/news2005/1108-10.htm

These tax breaks are financed with money borrowed against future generations.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/18/katrina.cost/


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1010-05.htm

This is a bi-partisan problem. This needs a bi-partisan solution. Both parties have spent like drunken sailors on shore leave!

Take a look again at the numbers. Don't let it get you depressed! Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we pay back what's owed!
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/debt_a.htm
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 01:21 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005     #

The coward wrote, "LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!"?

You are the embodiment of a lying coward

ps - if you don't like your handle, why did you choose it?
posted by AirTrainer at 01:41 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005     #

Fixing what's wrong with you would require your retroactive abortion.

Careful, coward, Bruno might be back with his 'poopiepants' statement. He also might be right to do so.

Where is that pine-scented air freshener, anyway?
posted by AirTrainer at 01:45 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005     #

Coward,

I probably should have called you a moron at some point, but I didn't. If I had, I would have been insulting the rest of the morons in the world, for you are most certainly not able to function at their level of sophistication.
posted by AirTrainer at 01:50 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005     #

Coward,

I should amend my earlier post.

You are the embodiment of a lying coward.
posted by AirTrainer at 01:56 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005     #

jr states:

So no more federal aid to the rest of the world, right? Keep all the money in the U.S. Take care of all the sick, the poor, the hungry, the homeless, and the illiterate in the U.S. first. Then if any money is leftover, send it to wherever in the world. Is that what I'm hearing?
posted by jr at 11:14 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 09, 2005

I have actually have heard comment made most of my growing life by my parents, grandparents, teachers, quote they would comment to government plan to feed the Chinese, Africans on and on... "we have our OWN starving in this country that need taken care of FIRST"...

I would venture to say...many Americans feel we have our OWN to take care of first...

MeMyselfandI comments:
Our "problems at home" aren't really solvable by government. We've thrown lots of money at them and they continue unabated. Let's spend it on kicking some terrorist ass!
posted by MemyselfandI at 12:55 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005 #

But, many of us do question if indeed there was terrorists planning a takeover of some sort in Iraq...we question this war!!! The Saudi's have more connections to terrorism...why are we in Iraq???

Posters have commented as have I on topics regarding rebuilding New Orleans...
My comment to this...will it FLOOD again??? Are we WASTING many DOLLARS re-building New Orleans???
posted by MARIELORA at 09:49 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005     #

There are other ways of living as a free and productive society.The (recent) American economic model has not been in existence for more than seventy-five years, and is truly "not a proven concept". I believe there are societies that do not wish to have a fast food chain store on every corner, and a massive highway system connecting "consumers" to their shopping destinations. (we used to be called citizens)

There are societies that are frightened of the Free Trade policies of the United States. These policies can be summed up in great measure, by the mass dislocation of once self sustaining farmers from their lands. This creates a huge surplus labor pool, which now allows us to exploit those desperate for work, while driving down our own wages and benefits. This is nothing but legalized robbery in my opinion. A bait and switch scheme, which degrades the honest labor of free men, and benefits the multi-national corporations which profit from them. I don't see the poor represented well at the globalization conferences.I believe the whole scheme is unsustainable, and will create worldwide pollution and chaos. The strip mining of our earth for precious metals and oil, has created the possibility of running out of oil, and other metals and minerals. This artificially created hyper- demand is not going to be supportable for coming generations. I believe the supplies of these metals, and oil and gas products is finite. This is helping to fuel the race for the last known resources. I know that we aren't going to be living like this in 150 years. That "little bit of time" is nothing in geological terms. I myself, have a hard time understanding the vast lengths of time this planet has been here.The numbers are too large.

To sum this up. How others wish to live, involves much more than just handing out money.There are other countries who do not want our economic model, and are forced into it by regional and trans-national trade and currency patterns.There are hundreds of thousands of farmers, and their families, in Mexico and Central America displaced by our factory farms. While now creating a massive labor pool, consisting of the dis-possessed, and the dis-enfranchised.The legal sharks who help to control the worldwide globalization realize full well, that those who have nothing, are the least likely to fight back. I would venture to say there is a better and more sustainable way of doing all this. If much of it ever needed to be done at all. For the purpose of much of this is to stimulate demand.Thereby generating new markets and new profits.Yet the flip side of this coin, is resource depletion and commodity price increases. And the degradation of the human spirit.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 11:01 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005     #

Ladies and gentlemen:

Can't we please stop the name calling? Coward started it, so let's be bigger people than him and let him have the last word.

Yes, the solution to my problem is a retroactive abortion.
posted by MemyselfandI at 12:50 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005     #

Can't we please stop the name calling? Coward started it, so let's be bigger people than him and let him have the last word.

Look at the maturity. "MOMMY! COWARD STARTED IT! IT'S TRUE CAUSE I SAID SO!"

Grow the f**k up. Oh, and nice irony AGAIN referring to me as just "Coward".

Please stop making baby Jesus cry.
posted by anonymouscoward at 12:58 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 10, 2005     #

GuestZero, we haven't heard from you since you "blasted the world" with this wild topic. I'm just checking to make sure "they" haven't came and took you away yet! I'm starting to become a little concerned.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 07:33 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 23, 2005     #

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