What do you call a teamster in a three piece suit?
The defendant!
Ha!
Ha!Ha!
Ha!Ha!Ha!
I kill me.
Szollosi is just lucky the teamsters didn't send in the B team. That's B, as in Break. What do you expect, anyhow? This is the way negotiations are done in the teamsters, at least initially. As for the Democrats, the Democratic party is so screwed up these days that it's going to take a minor miracle to straighten it out. We’re a little short on miracles here in T-Town, or haven’t you noticed? Personally, I think the whole area has a jonah on it.
Then there's the whole Carty thing. What can be said of a city that attracts mayoral talent like Carty and what's his name, the guy who's always asleep. His name will come to me in a minute... Ford!
posted by madjack at 09:37 A.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
As usual, Toledo Tales has the real story on the meeting between Szollosi and Lichtenwald.
Subcomandante Bob believes that truth must come out at any price, even at the expense of the truth.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 09:58 A.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
It was stupid for Bill Lichtenwald to make that kind of a threat against Frank. First of all look the Blade front paged it. Anyone with a brain would know not only would Frank make this public but that the Blade would run with it.
I blogged about the whole issue earlier and then again today after I read the Blade, while I have some concerns about Frank becoming Council President, making Mark Sobczak Council President is a huge mistake. He has no council experience and it's obvious he would be nothing more than a rubber stamp for the Mayor's office.
As I wrote on my blog? Bill Lichtenwald should be removed from the transition team immediately if Carty even wants to keep any kind of a pretense that there will be "unity" between the A and B teamers.
And as for the Blade? Reporting the bit about Ashford somehow being "forced" to not be in the meeting? Oh please...
posted by psyche777 at 10:21 A.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
There's politics, and there's outright thuggery.
Lichtenwald has crossed the line, and as Lisa pointed out, shattered the idea that the A team and B team will repair rifts any time soon.
Good luck, Frank. You will need it.
posted by historymike at 12:49 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
It's possible for unity still...if Lichenwald either resigns or is removed from the transition team. It's not to late for damage control.
Soon? It will be to late though....
posted by psyche777 at 02:40 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
Wait a minute... The Blade uses Frank Szollozi as the only source of information about what was said in a closed door meeting and allegedly he was threatened by someone who is tied to Finkbeiner. And no one's called bullshit on this yet?
Szollozi spent the entire 2005 mayoral campaign trying to tie Finkbeiner to all sorts of unsavory political characters in an attempt to discredit Finkbeiner, so why should I or anyone believe his side of the story?
I know what you're thinking: Why would he pull a stunt like this? Because he's got nothing to lose. The defeat of the RON Issues dealt a huge blow to Lucas County Democrats.org's ability to raise money, and on top of that, he barely held on to his council seat. He's got no political capital and this stinks of desperation.
posted by thenick at 03:33 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
thenick:
Lichtenwald pretty much admits that Frank's account is accurate; there is no controversy here:
Mr. Lichtenwald confirmed the meeting and said it was his right as a citizen to express his views to an elected councilman.
and
"I told Frank that in order to have the Democratic Party work, the only candidate was Mark Sobczak. I told him if you're not willing to work with us, we're not willing to work with you," Mr. Lichtenwald said.
Also, Michael Ashford weighed in, saying that he was "thrown out" and "not welcome" to sit in on the meeting.
Sounds more and more like Subcomandante Bob's version.
posted by historymike at 04:47 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
What stinks is being unprofessional enough to even make the demand in the first place.
Especially since it's not exactly a secret that they did not support Frank nor did he them. Personally if someone came to me with that type of a threat? They'd be the last person I'd ever support.
That doesn't even address the issue that a Council President should at least have some working knowledge/experience with City Council.
Nor should it be someone that has issues with the Mayor either...but if it came down to that or no experience? (Which it shouldn't if they would all be adults)
While as a blogger I realize this could end up being one heck of a year to write about? I'd much rather have it be a nice calm year where they actually got things done rather than one spat after another.
posted by psyche777 at 07:21 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
Sorry it took so long, but I'll call bullshit on this, thenick. The bullshit is coming from Frank Szollosi.
Szollosi's own words about selecting a new Council president:
Dec 22: "... it's the decision of 12 members of council"
Nov 10: "... it should be the seven Democrats who get together and make decisions."
Here's the link to the Blade story being discussed here.
"The boss of the politically powerful local Teamsters union yesterday threatened political reprisals against a Toledo City Council member if he did not support Teamsters Vice President Mark Sobczak for president of council."
So it's a political threat. I thought it was some kind of physical threat. No sympathy from me for Frank about this. Afterall, on one hand it's fun to watch, but unfortunately, it's also simply business as usual in T-town. The fight for Council president is about alignment among the council members.
Toledo City Paper opinion about local politics :
"And then there is the little matter of council president, who controls voting calendars and the like, and, oh by the way, takes over as Mayor in case the current officeholder is incapacitated — the proverbial "heartbeat away." Current Pres Louis Escobar didn’t seek re-election. Should the mantle fall to someone with the most experience in consular matters to ensure a smooth transition in the best interests of the city? Perish the thought."
"Who can curry the votes? Six votes will win the day. The A-teamers don’t have the votes, and neither do the B-teamers nor the Republicans, so coalitions must be built."
So what is so surprising about this so-called political threat?
But back to the Blade story that started this topic. In this story, Szollosi shows how he talks out of boths side of his mouth. Frank said:
"Fundamentally, it's the decision of 12 members of council, and it's wrong for somebody's boss to come twisting arms and threatening, 'Support my guy or else."
The decision of 12 members? Since when did Frank suddenly realize Council consisted of 12 members?
Nov 10 Blade story titled "Talk begins on who will lead council."
"City voters also ended the eight-member voting majority that "A-team" Democrats have enjoyed on City Council for the last four years."
"The new makeup has five A-team Democrats who supported Mr. Ford, two B-team Democrats who ran on the same slate as Mr. Finkbeiner, and four Republicans - up from the current three Republicans."
"One scenario under consideration is that Mr. McCloskey gets elected president with the support of Mr. Sobczak and the four Republicans."
"All six are considered conservative and sympathetic to business concerns. Council Republicans and Mr. McCloskey joined forces in January in an unsuccessful effort to appoint Mr. Sobczak to a vacancy."
And now the other side of Frank Szollosi comes out in that Nov 10 Blade story:
"Councilman Frank Szollosi said Democrats should avoid making deals with Republicans. "If people are serious about unity, then it should be the seven Democrats who get together and make decisions," Mr. Szollosi said."
According to Frank, a month ago it was seven not 12 council members who should make the decisions. Sorry Frank. You are now simply getting beaten at your own game, and you run to mommy, the media, to cry about it. Maybe Toledo needs tough people to push the city forward, and maybe that doesn't include Frank Szollosi.
Before Toledoans come to the aid of poor Frank, the public should demand that Frank explains his Nov 10 comment, especially when compared to his Dec 22 comment.
posted by jr at 07:39 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
So, who SHOULD be Council President and why?
Opinions please!
My opinions/concerns:
The Council president snould NOT be a newbie.
They should also have demonstrated leadership ability both inside and outside of politics.
The Council President should defenitely have better people skills than the average bear.
Council President should maybe be nominated and elected via secret ballot, so that the Council members can vote freely and honestly, without pressure from anyone.
This should be an interesting one ;-)
This should be completed on the 3rd, to avoid the Blah from getting a vote or influencing others (as per above).
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 07:53 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
The November 10th comment was in response to the 7 Democrats should decide who they want to support because they if they can manage to unite, have a majority.
The 12 comment relates to the total number involved in the vote.
So yes it was 7 that in a traditional Democrat versus Republican situation that would hold the power if they could manage to get along to use it. But, the votes of all 12 count. I don't see that as any kind of an issue, except I find it ironic that unity is expected by both sides of this A and B team division yet neither one really manages to work at it.
I don't blame Frank for going to the media with it, the stupidy lies with Lichtenwald for not only having the meeting in the first place but allowing it to become a media issue. Litchenwald should have known Frank would make it public. Hello...talk about handing Frank a present, before Christmas even. Carty is going to be the Mayor, if he really does want there to be no division this is NOT the way to make that happen. The Blade is going to be all over everything he does, so why make it so easy for them? That's not smart.
posted by psyche777 at 08:00 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
The Don talks back - don't miss the Toledo Tales exclusive interview with Don Lichtenwald.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 08:01 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
"... the 7 Democrats should decide who they want to support because they if they can manage to unite, have a majority."
In other words, one-pary rule. Isn't Lichtenwald simply following Frank's advice from November? Lichtenwald is trying to work with a Democrat on behalf of another Democrat. That's what Frank said in his Nov 10 comment. It's Lichtenwald's version of Democrat party unity. What makes Szollosi's version of party unity better? So what if Lichtenwald is a boss of a Teamsters union. What's the difference between that and a Toledo Democrat politician? I just don't see the problem here other than the sour grapes by Szollosi.
A Frank Szollosi Feb 1, 2005 posting on his own blog about Coleman running for governor.
"And what has over a decade of one party rule brought us? State financial scandals that have humbled GOP leaders in the Ohio House and Senate and forced the GOP State Treasurer to resign. And a fiscal crunch that is forcing legislators to consider draconian cuts."
Frank bitches about one-party rule at the state level, but he promotes it at the local level because it's good politics.
One more time, Frank said last month:
"If people are serious about unity, then it should be the seven Democrats who get together and make decisions."
Unity, what does he mean by unity? Is it Democrat party unity or unity among all 12 council membes? Is Frank saying you can't have unity if Dems work with Republicans?
Frank's comment was discussed on Frank's blog last month. A commenter said:
"Of course that is what should happen when picking a council president. That is where the comment comes from, and it makes sense in context. Why have a Party if there is no unity?"
So that's similar to what psyche777. Okay, fine. Shutting out the the non-Democrats is called party unity. What about City unity? What's so damn wrong with Republicans and Democrats working together? Frank's Nov 10 comment supports the status quo, and what has that done for Toledo?
Frank did explain his Nov 10 comment on his blog:
"Every legislative body in the world, I think, organizes itself along partisan lines - that was my point."
Again, why does Frank whine about one-party rule at the state level? Can't it be said that the state pols are also organizing themselves along partisan lines?
Frank "Politics as Usual" Szollosi is one major reason why people don't vote and don't give a damn. Based upon his Nov 10 comment, Frank has no desire for City unity and no desire for what's best for Toledo. He is simply acting like most politicans who are only concerned about power and control.
psyche777, I understand you like Frank, and you're defending him, but if what you say is the reason for Frank's Nov 10 comment, then Toledo will not advance. Look at what you said:
"So yes it was 7 that in a traditional Democrat versus Republican situation that would hold the power if they could manage to get along to use it."
Hold the power and use it for what? Is the Toledo Empire threatening to invade Perrysburg? How does "holding the power" help Toledo? Power, power, power.
The attitude of Frank Szollosi and his Nov 10 comment is why Toledo's population continues to decline every year and why the burbs continue to grow. No matter what, this whole thing smells, and Frank is clearly a part of it even though he is trying to use the media to appear otherwise.
You can almost hear the sound of more residents and business owners planning their exodus.
posted by jr at 08:57 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
I like Frank, almost everyone here knows I like Frank, however I'm not sure if he can keep the history out of it to be Council President.
I think they should pick someone that will get along yet not be a rubber stamp. That's not Mark either...not only does he not have the experience but I don't think he would be anything more than a rubber stamp. He hasn't been on council to prove otherwise.
I can understand why they want a Democrat and if it were Ford who was elected I'd have no qualms about Frank doing it. He did show he did not always agree with the Mayor.
I'm not sure who it should be, I just know who it shouldn't be. However, as I said if it ends up between Mark and Frank? Frank does have the experience. And while it might be rockier than some of us would like? He would not be a rubber stamp....
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 09:03 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
jr, you don't create unity by threatening someone. Nor do you create unity by demanding a Council President candidate with no proven experience in Council. That is a smack in the face of those who have been on Council and do have experience.
I'm not a party person so don't expect me to defend what they are doing, however that is the way a two party system operates. US first then we'll bring THEM in later. If they don't ever need THEM then they dont bother.
If Frank was the only one who did this it would be one thing but he's not. Nor did he handle the comments on the 10th the way I would have. However...I'm not Frank, nor is Frank me so all I can do is comment on how I see it. Frank obviously on the 10th responded because B teamers were going to work with Republicans. I said at the time it wasn't a great comment. However that has nothing to do with what happened.
This is more of the never ending A versus B team stupidity. So I retain the right to call them stupid as I see whichever side being more stupid. In this particular circumstance? B Team was more stupid and I expected more class from Carty.
posted by psyche777 at 09:14 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
Stupid is probably a bad choice of words...substitute "not unity oriented" or "unprofessional"
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 09:16 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
I was upset that Toledo Tales scooped me, I wanted that interview...
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 09:29 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
Toledo Tales, much like another great American local newspaper, need not concern itself with facts.
Subcomandante Bob (who always refers to himself in the third person), knows not the meaning of the terms "journalistic integrity" or "search for truth."
Ergo, Bob has a tremendous competitive edge over writers who adhere to actual standards, such as psyche777 or jr.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 09:42 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 22, 2005 #
Welcome to politics in Mudville, or is this Chicago?
Who remembers those Blade ads by Mark Sobczak wherein he touted himself as an 'independent voice on City Council?'
Independent my ass! His yellow and black campaign signs, so clearly placed beside Carty's black and yellow signs, should have tipped off the 'astute Toledo voter.'
Of course, there seemed to have been very few of them around on November 8.
posted by limedrops911 at 08:58 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 23, 2005 #
Back in September, Frank Szollosi tried to link Carty to Tom Noe. Carty complained to the Clean Campaign Committee, and the committee ruled in favor of Carty.
"The Clean Campaign Committee concluded that supporters of Mr. Ford had violated the pledge twice. It said a charge by City Councilman Frank Szollosi that Mr. Finkbeiner had connections with Tom Noe, a Republican Party bigwig accused of stealing state money invested in his rare-coin fund, was "tenuous at best." "
"The ruling said the attempted linkage was contrary to the clean-campaign promise that candidates would not use personal attacks and innuendo to demean an opponent."
As we know, Noe is under two investigations. Being linked to Noe with baseless claims is almost libelous, isn't it? And then what about all of those Carty and the Kest gang comments from Frank? Does that build unity or was that simply old fashioned political campaign mudslinging by Frank?
I don't know why this is even a news story. Frank's guy is out as mayor. thenick is partially dead on with the comment:
"Szollozi spent the entire 2005 mayoral campaign trying to tie Finkbeiner to all sorts of unsavory political characters in an attempt to discredit Finkbeiner, so why should I or anyone believe his side of the story?"
I believe Frank is telling the truth about Lichtenwald, but so what? Where's the news here? It's politics. Both hilarious and sad, but that's the monster these people have created.
Frank likes to dish it out, but obviously he cannot take it. Does anyone think Carty would have quickly forgotten what Frank said about him, and why should Carty simply ignore what Frank said?
And from the Oct Blade article about the CCC:
"Carty Finkbeiner yesterday raised the public pressure on Mayor Jack Ford to disavow comments by his campaign supporters that the Citizens Clean Campaign Committee has called a violation of the pledge Mr. Ford signed."
Did Ford or even Szollosi ever disavow the comments? I don't think so. Politics, baby. If Frank wants to be a player, he's going to have to toughen up and take his shots because he certainly fired a few at Carty this year.
And I still don't understand Frank's flip-flop in less than six weeks where this week he says the decision should be made by the 12 Council members versus the 7 Democrats last month. Why didn't Frank this week continue with his belief that the 7 Democrats should make the decision?
Seems to me, Frank created the pickle he is in. Frank got his ass handed to him this week by Lichtenwald, and now Frank is looking for help from all of Council, even Republicans. Too bad. A month ago, Frank had no interest in the other five Council members and their decision-making ability.
So typical. Frank is another one of those types who doesn't want to take personal responsibility and just wants to blame others.
posted by jr at 09:21 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 23, 2005 #
Frank is another one of those types who doesn't want to take personal responsibility and just wants to blame others.
There's a lot of that going on these days, jr., and not just in Toledo.
Just look at how long Bush took to hint, note hint, that well, gosh, perhaps, kinda, sorta, he may have, but only may have, not done the best he could on the Iraq issue.
And what about Carty? McCloskey? Shultz? McConnell-Hancock?
It's politics, my friend, pure, simple, and ugly. One needs to note the personality type of those who make it to public office.
posted by limedrops911 at 01:12 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 23, 2005 #
And I think that's why more successful business people don't run for Council. First, they've got the headache of running a business, and maybe they're also raising a family, and then they have everything else that life serves up. Why would they want to deal with the likes of union bosses and career politicians?
My faith isn't in the politicians. It's in the small business people and the people managing some kind of cash-strapped community org that is trying to improve the city. In 2006, Toledo Grows is an org I think I'd like to help with in some way. We should all find an org that needs help and donate a little time to it. Waiting around for politicians to create something won't cut it.
posted by jr at 10:10 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 23, 2005 #
Self-Expression Teen Theater is another organization that needs volunteers. I've been volunteering there for 4 years.
posted by MrsPhoenix at 08:34 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 24, 2005 #
Jr, I can't disagree with you that Frank's Carty bashing is a factor and one that I stated briefly here but in more detail on my own blog. It's something I worried about during the campaign that if Frank came across as too anti-Carty it could hurt him later. No one expects him to "love" Carty but I'm not sure if the two of them could work together. Not just from Frank's area of responsibility if he were Council President but from the Mayor's office as well.
However, I'm not exactly in the "inner circle" where anyone listens to my advice.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 11:41 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 24, 2005 #
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