The arrogance of our local politicians continues to astound me, although it shouldn't anymore. How can Carty, Wozniak and the rest of the clowns presume to know more than Abbell Credit Corp.? Our local government has no business developing plans for retail shopping. By the way, how's that Erie Street Market thing working out?
"Toledo Mayor Carty Finkbeiner and Tina Skeldon Wozniak do not like the current Westgate plan to be reviewed by the Toledo Plan Commission Feb. 2. So they came up with their own blueprint, which was released yesterday to criticism from Westgate's owners."
Our intelligent Mayor said of his leech-like plan to get his name attached to a development that everyone knows will succeed:
"The small town flavor people love."
I've got a suggestion. If you want that supposed "small town flavor," get the hell out of the city and move to a small town. What is "small town flavor" anyway? What does that mean? Quantify "small town flavor" for me. How many small towns have an intersection as busy as Central and Secor?
"Drawn with the help of failed mayoral candidate Keith Wilkowski and Douglas Kelbaugh, who is the dean of architecture and planning at the University of Michigan, the new proposal would break up the wings and move some shops around. It would add a street cutting through Westgate from Secor Road. They plan to spend up to $15,000 in public economic development money on re-planning the project."
"Liz Holland, chief executive officer of Abbell Credit Corp. in Chicago, principal owner of Westgate, said she and her staff followed the zoning laws and that their plan should be approved next month."
"A community meeting called by Ms. Holland to hear from residents is scheduled for 7 p.m. Thursday at the Covenant Presbyterian Church, 3225 Markway Rd."
"The new plan, released yesterday, is misguided and ignores some basic realities, she said. For example, it calls for the smaller shops to have multiple entrances, she said. Another flaw is the assumption that Costco does not care what the rest of the shopping center will look like as long as their gas stations and other operations are preserved, she said."
Holland won't put up with Carty's bullshit:
"Mr. Ford did not ask enough of the "big box" store, Mr. Finkbeiner said. The commercial area and Toledo need to shake an inferiority complex and not only feel lucky to have a Costco but also adamant about how it should look, he said."
"Ms. Holland said such attitudes are laudable, but for years activists - including some who do not live nearby - have chased away quality businesses. The area has suffered for it, she said."
Holland said:
"When I look at what has transpired in the Westgate area in the last six years, we have a vacant Food Town, and the Showcase Cinemas site is vacant. [The theater] came to the community with a lovely plan five years ago. Today, we have new theaters in Franklin Park. It was rejected by precisely this same group [of residents]. They gave them such a hard time about it they just packed up and said it's not worth it. What did they accomplish, truly? If there isn't a balance, business goes elsewhere, time is money in business." It's not 57th Street and Fifth Avenue. The stores in the Westgate area cannot be supported by people who walk to them exclusively. I appreciate better access and walkability, once they get to a place. We believe our plan accomplishes that."
posted by jr at 09:09 A.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
Carty Finkbeiner found a strange set of objects on his desk when he reoccupied the 22nd Floor office. Toledo Tales has the inside scoop on the mystery machine.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 09:19 A.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
Douglas Kelbaugh is the one who helped developed the original Walk Westgate isn't he?
So to state he doesn't know what he's doing as far as design isn't very accurate. Though it's obvious the Blade feeling on it given they did not provide that information and the cute comment about Wilkowski.
Some previous info on Kelbaugh...
http://uac.utoledo.edu/News/blade-deboer-8-12-00.htm
http://uac.utoledo.edu/News/blade-9-25-00.htm
Nor does it appear the design or placement of Costco is at risk in the City offered plan. Nor was this a surprise. Carty stated this was going to happen and Liz Holland also was aware of this. Both discussions happened on WSPD on Bob Frantz's show.
It sounds like it will be up to the planning commission. If Carty's group is correct, the original plans would not be accepted. If they are wrong? Then the planning commission will accept the original design. The city should have some input into this given city funds are going to be used. This whole give us the abatements and pay for what we want and shut up and take what we give you attitude isn't exactly great either. Considering it will take at least two years for the City to recoup the amount of money they are being asked to consider? I don't see this as a "bad Carty" moment.
posted by psyche777 at 09:42 A.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
"So to state he doesn't know what he's doing as far as design isn't very accurate."
Douglas Kelbaugh, who is the dean of architecture and planning at the University of Michigan ...
Why is Toledo relying on professors, anyway? Can't we find developers who are in the business of developing? Where is a shopping mall designed by Douglas Kelbaugh that we can view as an example of his work? I would like to know the location of a Kelbaugh development that expresses the "small town flavor" that Carty desires. I'm sure one or two of these Kelbaugh-like developments exist, and it's just a simple oversight that no one has mentioned the location of such a development.
He helped develop something on paper. And according to Liz Holland, some or all of these Walk Westgate ideas have been incorporated into Toledo's new building codes that Abell is following.
Here is what Holland said about the new government plan lead by a professor:
"At first blush, it will be very difficult to lease with that parking configuration. Retailers generally don't do multiple entrances in stores that size. They need a back-of-the-house, and they can only staff one cash register [to watch the door]."
Does Kelbaugh have any real-world experience or does he simply teach theories?
"The city should have some input into this given city funds are going to be used."
No, not city funds, taxpayer dollars. The taxpayers should also have a say in this, since it's our money. And the "say" shouldn't be restricted to the people who live next to Westgate. What about those of us within a mile or so of Westgate who have frequently visited and still visit Westgate? What about our say? As Liz said, the survival of a new Westgate won't depend upon the people living near it who supposedly walk to the stores. The new Westgate will depend upon those of us who drive to it.
It's a $35 million project and the city is giving up what, a couple mill? And it will "only" take two years for the taxpayers to recoup the amount? What's so wrong with waiting only two years? This is not just a bad Carty moment. This is a horrible bloated government moment.
Only two years for the taxpayers to recoup its investment in the new Westgate. This story mentioned by psyche777 is from Sep 2000. The new Westgate idea became public in Aug of 2005. And look how much progress was made in that five-year period. What did Carty do about this new Walk Westgate idea under his first regime?
Here's a little more info about the creation of the 2000 Walk Westgate plan:
"Many of the 25 students, five professors, and 12 architects involved spent more than 40 hours between Thursday afternoon and last night drawing their ideas for the area. The students, especially those from the University of Michigan, will refine their plans and present another report to the community in December."
And check this out from that Sep 2000 article:
"The plans for the area would likely take at least 10 years and millions of dollars of public money to implement, said Douglas Kelbaugh."
Kelbaugh's plan sounds much worse for the taxpayers than Holland's plan. And that's because the Walk Westgate idea of 2000 was more than just Westgate.
"The plans focus on the intersection of Central Avenue and Secor Road and the area surrounding it, bordered by Sylvania Avenue to the north, West Bancroft Street to the south, Douglas Road to the east, and Talmadge Road to the west."
Ah, come on. That's way over the top. That's too big of an area. That's the original Walk Westgate idea? It would take a lot longer than 10 years to implement that dream. That's more ambitious than the Marina District Project, and look how fast that east side project has progressed.
More from that Sep 2000 article:
"Maintaining that interest is the only way the huge amount of creative energy that went into the plans will become reality, Toledo city council president Peter Ujvagi reminded the audience. He said he has seen many neighborhood plans over the years "and the vast majority of those collected dust. So many of them, while they were energized at the start, failed in the long term," he said, promising that he will "work very, very hard to implement this project and not let it die." "
So we can blame Toledo government for letting the Walk Westgate energy of 2000 fizzle. You see, when the government is too involved, nothing happens in five years. Holland comes out and says this is what we're doing, and it will begin in 2006 and things will be open in 2007. Then all of sudden, the government wakes up. The government deals with dreams while someone like Holland deals with reality.
Dreams without work is fantasy, and that describes the government when they get involved in things that are beyond their intellectual means, like retail development.
This area already has lot of fantasy projects: Marina District, sports arena, technology corridor, Southwyck. But look at the reality projects: new Westfield Mall and Levis Commons. How involved was the government in the reality projects?
The MLK/Cherry St. bridge, another fantasy project, has been under construction for the last 3-5 years. I've lost track. I know in the fall of 2001 or 2002, I walked across that busted up bridge to attend a concert. Bridges are one thing the government is suppose to take care of. But Toledo cannot get this bridge fully operational.
And we're suppose to believe that the government can develop retail shopping? You know, I think the MLK bridge was under contstruction when the new Perrysburg/Maumee bridge was built from scratch. A brand new bridge was built in far less time than it's taking to fix the MLK bridge. So it's mind boggling to think that local politicans know what in the hell they are doing when it comes to a $35 million retail development project.
posted by jr at 11:13 A.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
How can Carty, Wozniak and the rest of the clowns presume to know more than Abbell Credit Corp.?
I think you're not asking the correct question: How can Carty, Wozniak, and Dean of Architecture and Planning at the University of Michigan presume to know more that Abbell Credit Corp., a company that has so far proven itself unable to run a small strip mall? Psyche's right, the city is ponying up a large chunk of money, so shouldn't we have some say in how that money is being spent? From what I've read, Abbell controls 1.6 million sf. of retail space around the country, which is roughly equal to Franklin Park Mall. Has Abbell developed a shopping center similar in size to the Westgate proposal in the recent past? From what I've Googled, it looks like Abbell only has one other shopping center, an ancient indoor mall in Des Moines, and that one is about to get destroyed by a new competitor.
Can't we find developers who are in the business of developing?
Given the state of the Marina District property and Southwyck Mall, I'd say the answer is no.
posted by thenick at 12:47 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
jr, don't shoot the messenger - lol. The question raised was the qualifications. It's obvious Kelbaugh is qualified.
I thought the background information on Walk Westgate was interesting as well as providing some info on Kelbaugh's experience with this project.
I don't want to see Carty micromanage this project to death. However, I also don't feel that suggesting a plan that Liz Holland knew was coming should be that big of a shocker or an automatic demonstration of trying to ruin Costco's coming to Westgate. It appears the Carty administration folded on the original gas station complaint since they did include it, so it's not quite the negative scenario as the Blade article implies.
posted by psyche777 at 01:58 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
"the city is ponying up a large chunk of money ..."
$2.5 million is large? The project is $35 million. Where's the rest of the money coming from? I wish Abbell would pay for everything, so they could tell these politicians to get lost.
And psyche777 said the city, I mean taxpayers, get that investment back within a few years, which means the city makes money thereafter, right? The city is investing some money in the short-term to make a lot more money in the long-term.
"... a company that has so far proven itself unable to run a small strip mall?"
Unproven? Where do you get that?
"[Liz Holland's] grandfather built the shopping center back in 1956."
Westgate has existed for 50 years. If the Holland family or Abbell couldn't manage a strip mall, Westgate would have gone under 10-20 years ago. Has Southwyck and Northtown been around for 50 years? Did that Portside shopping project last 50 years? The new Erie Street Market is struggling, and it's been around less than 10 years.
How many retail areas in Toledo have existed for 50 years and have undergone or will undergo a massive renovation to make sure they are around another 50 years?
If Abbell couldn't run a strip mall, do you think they would dump a ton of money into a Toledo redevelopment project? No. They would sell the property and go do something else.
The same two questions exist:
1. What does Carty mean with his senseless "small town flavor" comment?
2. And where is the location of a Kelbaugh development?
As to the fantasy projects thenick mentioned, Southwyck and the Marina District, Ford announced developers for both last year: Dillin for Southwyck and Pizzuti for the Marina District. If you want to see Dillin's work, check out Perrysburg's Levis Commons. If you want to see Pizzuti developments, visit Columbus. Where do we go to see a Kelbaugh development? A person who is the dean of architecture at UM has to have a development out there.
posted by jr at 02:09 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
1. Small town flavor means the original Walk Westgate type theme as I understand it.
2. If this was an issue than Toledo should not have used him, however...his experience:
ACADEMIC AND PROFESSIONAL HONORS (Selected)
President's Award, AIA Michigan, 2001
Apgar Award, best article in Urban Land, U.L.I., 2000
Nominee, Chrysler Award for Innovation in Design, 1996
National Honor Award, Washington Pass Rest Facility, American Wood Council, 1997
First Place, Team-based Studio Design, Association of Collegiate Schools of Architecture, 1995
First Award, Place Jacques Cartier International Design Competition, Montreal, 1990
National Honor Award, Roosevelt Solar Village, American Institute of Architects, 1985
Third Place, Newport News Cultural Arts Pavilion International Design Competition, 1984
First Place, New York American Institute of Architects Energy Design Competition, 1982
First Place, Monroeville Civic Center Design Competition, 1982
Progressive Architecture Award, Urban Design and Planning, 1979
4 Design Awards, HUD Passive Solar Design Competition, 1978
PROJECTS AND CONSULTANCIES (Selected)
Review Team, Helsinki Regional Plan, O.E.C.D., Helsinki, Finland, 2001
National Renewable Energy Lab, Design Charrette, 2001
Design Consultant for Dale Chihuly, glass art installations, building design, 198898
Alkimos/Eglintor Newtowns, Master planning, Perth, Australia, 1996
Rest facility, Okanogan National Forest, Washington Pass, WA, 1995
Civic stadium redesign (design consultant), Turin, Italy, 1993
PA Technology North American Headquarters and Laboratories, East Windsor, NJ, 1984 (with Richard Rogers Partners)
Wellspring Zendo, Pound Ridge, NY, 1984
Senior citizen housing project, Roosevelt, NJ, 1983
Milford Reservation Environmental Center, Milford, PA, 1981
Calhoun Street Firehouse, (project designer) Trenton, NJ, 1977
Black Cultural Center, (designer-builder) Trenton, NJ, 1969
There's alot more here:
http://www.tcaup.umich.edu/facultystaff/faculty/Kelbaughdprofile.html
posted by psyche777 at 03:31 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
Westgate has existed for 50 years. If the Holland family or Abbell couldn't manage a strip mall, Westgate would have gone under 10-20 years ago.
From the information I've found on Abbell Credit Corp. they appear to be a once large company that has contracted to the point that they've got two retail sites left. When I first heard of Westgate, it was a dump. That was 15 years ago. It hasn't changed for the better.
How many retail areas in Toledo have existed for 50 years and have undergone or will undergo a massive renovation to make sure they are around another 50 years?
Woodville Mall is starting a redevelopment plan that will include new theaters and a redesign of the facade and interior spaces.
$2.5 million is large? The project is $35 million. Where's the rest of the money coming from? I wish Abbell would pay for everything, so they could tell these politicians to get lost.
Costco will own their own property and building, so Abbell will not have to rebuild half of Westgate and will receive money from the sale of land to Costco. Abbell is going to spend far less than $35 million on this development. Besides, it appears that Costco is in no matter what gets built on the other side of the parking lot from them. We've got enough big box strip malls in this city, why not try something different that appears to be working in the suburbs?
Where do we go to see a Kelbaugh development?
Perth, Western Australia, or 20+ miles north of it, where he has developed an entire community which will house 50,000 people when it's completed. It's scheduled to open for sale in 2008 and is being developed primarily by the Western Australian government.
posted by thenick at 03:46 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
What is missing here is informed city leadership.
We, the citizens of Toledo need to understand that once private investors, and corporations see profitablity and thus people like Holland will smile and tell Westagate's neigbors (in vague terms) what they think they want to hear until the deal is signed.
Holland: "It's not 57th Street and Fifth Avenue," she said. "The stores in the Westgate area cannot be supported by people who walk to them exclusively. I appreciate better access and walkability, once they get to a place. We believe our plan accomplishes that."
Yeah and you're not Donald Trump sweetheart. I am so relieved to hear that we will be able to walk around once we park. I have always hated those drive through department stores.
The only layer of protection between them and us would be the courts, and our local leaders. Unfortunately I do not see Carty doing anything of actual relevance. I would like to know how the revision came to be so close to the original. To me our leaders are just going through the motions, faking their way through this.
Central and Secor is such prime real estate. I will admit no experience in urban planning, but could we not do better here? Basicallly we are getting a box store. Dress it up any way you want.
Hey Carty, I won't blame you on this one, I blame Ford. But how about biting the bullet and fixing Secor so that people stop cutting through Old Orchard.
posted by nick44 at 05:26 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
Bob Frantz interviewed Liz Holland this evening on his "Eye on Toledo" show. Some notes:
Liz said she was disappointed with the Carty plan. She said Abbell had been in negotiations with Costco for 13 months until Costco agreed to be part of the project in December.
Liz said private citizens are using public money to fund an opposition plan.
Liz said she met with the Westgate Neighbors twice last August and then again on Sep 18. She was told by the Neighbors that they would get back to Liz about the Abbell plan. Liz said she finally heard from the Westgate Neighbors on Dec 27. According to Liz, the Neighbors dragged their feet and went to slow. During this time, Abbell continued negotiating with Costco and moving the project forward. Abbell was not going to wait forever for the Neighbors to respond. Costco signed on in Dec.
It's funny how three months to a business person is too slow. But like Liz said:
"If there isn't a balance, business goes elsewhere, time is money in business."
I don't think Toledo has fully grasped that concept.
Back in Aug, Abbell sent out mailings to 2500 homes in the Westgate area, discussing the new plans. Earlier this month, Abbell send out another mailing, updating everyone about the project. Liz said the responses from the homes on their mailing list have been overwhelmingly positive toward the Abbell plan.
If the new Westgate was being built in a cornfield, then Abbell could comply 100% to whatever Toledo devised. But the reality is, the current site is a "constrained site" that requires a few minor accomodations.
Abbell claims to be following Toledo's zoning codes. The Westgate opposition is forcing the 20/20 plan or something like that. Liz called this a "policy document." Liz said Toledo is pushing a policiy document while Abbell is following the law.
Liz said under the Carty plan, Costco would pull out. It would be a no-go. Costco would not agree with the Carty plan. Without Costco, the redevelopment project would be on hold. Other tenants won't sign on until they know who the anchor is.
Tentatively, Costco is the anchor, but apparently, other stores are waiting to see if the Abbell plan gets finalized by the city. If Toledo axes the Abbell plan, Costco pulls out, and the process of finding another anchor begins all over again. 13 months of negotiating with Costco would be lost. The construction by union labor that is suppose to begin this spring obviously wouldn't happen, which means the new Westgate doesn't open in 2007 or whenever it's scheduled.
Liz said that the process starts with the anchor and works down. So Costco, then Steinmart, and then Barry's Bagels, etc. Liz said that any other deals currently in the works would "go poof" if the city chooses the Carty plan.
Whole Foods wasn't interested in the Toledo market until last spring when Abbell approached them and told Whole Foods that Abbell was talking to Costco. But Whole Foods has since decided to not build in the Toledo market. Whole Foods is not interested in the new Westgate, and they are not interested in any other location in the Toledo area. A Whole Foods exists around Ann Arbor.
Liz said Abbell, however, is looking at other organic foods grocery stores.
Liz brought up the National Amusements debacle at the vacant theaters on Secor near Westgate. Liz said NA had grand plans to redevelop the theaters, but they ran into the Westgate Neighbors opposition. NA listened and changed their plans accordingly. But the demands by the Neighbors got more elaborate, so NA pulled out of the project and decided to wait for something else to open up. Something opened up all right. It's called the new Westfield Mall. That's where NA decided to develop. I would think that has turned out to be an awesome move for NA. Maybe they thanked the Neighbors for their opposition.
Is that really the true story?
Anyway, it's not too late for the whole Westgate project to fall apart. It's believed that other businesses interested in Toledo are watching to see how this Westgate issue is resolved.
Possibly the hottest area for development is northern Wood County. I wonder which side they are rooting for?
posted by jr at 07:59 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
I would almost like to see Costco pack up shop and move to Maumee/Monclova/Perrysburg.
posted by lloyd at 08:32 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
Don't take my last comment too seriously, I don't really mean that. I just wish people would realize that it is a free market and all of this complaining is going to cost us.
Is this why Toledo is rated as one of the most unfriendly cities for business?
posted by lloyd at 09:23 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
If it came to that lloyd, I doubt Maumee or Monclova would be an option, since that's still Lucas County, and Wozniak is part of the Carty Plan cabal. But you never know. The Levis Commons-like development at Fallen Timbers might be interested in Costco.
Current Costco locations in Ohio are:
Avon (west of Cleveland )
Deerfield Township (Cincinnati)
Mayfield Heights (Cleveland)
Springdale (Cincinnati area)
What's missing besides Toledo? Columbus. Liz mentioned Columbus as a next possible site for Costco in Ohio.
Jumping ahead, but it's a scenario that the Carty Plan clan has to address. And that is, with the knowledge that Costco will pull out with the Carty plan, what does the Carty Plan suggest the anchor to be if Whole Foods has no interest in the Toledo market?
I'm sure the current Westgate opposition believes no anchor is needed, and that a bunch of little stores can go into the new Westgate. Good luck. Yeah, and no anchors exist at Westfield, right? I wonder if Abbell would get so fed up and sell the Westgate property and take their money and goes somewhere else?
What is the anchor at Levis Commons? It's not the anchor, but Books-a-Million is a big-box store in my opinion.
posted by jr at 09:28 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
I didn't get to listen tonight, I was at the Emergency Room with one of my daughters, when it rains it pours here...
However that sounds different than what she said the last time she talked to Bob Frantz. Another downside to his show not offering an audio or written transcript.
posted by psyche777 at 10:06 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
Carty is Toledo's director of economic development. On the Westgate project, he's getting help from Wozniak, Wilkowski, and who knows. I'm guessing that an economic developer has to plan for everything, including the doomsday scenario. I bet Carty's plan for the Westgate doomsday scenario is encrypted and locked away on his home computer.
The Westgate doomsday scenario would be that one year from today, Westgate still looks like the Westgate of today except it's 100% vacant with no new development planned by Abbell. The property would be up for sale by Abbell with no prospective buyers in sight. Under such a scenario, how would Carty attract a submissive owner who will bend over and take whatever the Westgate Neighbors dish out?
At this point, I believe anything is possible, including Westgate still being vacant and still up for sale by Abbell when Carty is up for re-election in Nov 2009.
Since last Aug when plans for a new Westgate came out, I've always felt the project was too good to be true. A brand new, modern, good-looking retail area in Toledo with construction beginning in 2006 and stores opening a year or two later. That seems to run counter to the other fantasy projects in Toledo.
The development gems right now for Toledo have to be the new Hens stadium, most anything else in the warehouse district, and the Westfield Mall. But how many years has Toledo been discussing plans for Southwyck, an arena, the Marina District?
So what is more likely to happen? An Abbell-led Westgate development that opens in a year or two, or Toledo govt. screwing up the whole thing and nothing happening until a new buyer is found? I'm not sure if something in the middle is possible. But I'm sure our mayor has it all figured out no matter what's decided.
posted by jr at 10:23 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
psyche777, which part of what Liz said tonight sounds different from the last time she was on Bob's show? I heard her on Bob's show back on Dec 30. Has Bob interviewed her since then but before tonight?
I think Liz said she got a copy of the Carty Plan last week.
posted by jr at 10:28 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
I believe that would have been the December 30th show, if that was the day after Carty was on after the press conference. Sorry mind not working exactly clear at this point but that does sound right.
She wasn't concerned about any changes in design suggested and didn't seem to have a problem with the creation of the panel. She said they would work with the City and the Planning Commission.
So what you are stating tonight as far as Costco pulling out if the plan changed that did not even affect the area they are going to be in doesn't come across as the last impression that it was pretty much a set situation. That just doesn't make sense to me, if they are already getting the abatements they wanted, the gas station they wanted and the location they want for their store as well as the parking for their store why they would pull out over anchor store alignment issues.
You'd think they would want to work with the planning commission if the original design isn't approved. Unless someone cut them a better deal and they are using this as an excuse to bail.
posted by psyche777 at 10:37 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
With all of the vacant retail space in Toledo, I just do not see why the city would give tax abatements to a box store to move into Westgate. People are talking as if this is such a great thing for the area. Let it go to Wood county. Many of the residents of this area do not want it smack dab on that corner. And do not act as if this deal needs to be handled so delicately. Holland has no respect for Ottawa Hills and Old Orchard residents. It is all motivated by profit- which is my main point.
Anyone who wants to argue free markets needs to take another drive down Central Avenue between Mccord and King. There is no continuity. Build whatever size store wherever you want. Put one giant sign here and another little sign six feet closer to the street. It looks like hell. Sorry if people are being stubborn, but I think we are trying to preserve some of the beauty of the area. Or we could let Old Orchard go downhill and lose one of the last good neighborhoods in the city. Maybe area residents will just move to Wood county as well. That would mean that Toledo could kiss the large amount of income and property taxes it get from us.
God forbid area residents speak up for themselves. And I am so sorry that there are still Toledo residents who take pride in their neighborhood.
posted by nick44 at 11:13 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
According to Liz Holland, the Showcase theaters building on Secor is vacant thanks to the Westgate Neighbors. I'd like to know the real story behind this. How many times have people and politicians suggested using the old Showcase theaters building for Costco? Are the Westgate Neighbors to blame for that building being vacant?
"It is all motivated by profit ..."
Isn't that a given? Are Westfield and Levis Commons non-profit orgs?
"Maybe area residents will just move to Wood county as well."
I think that's been happening for a number of years already. And throw OI in the mix too.
Oh, here is some Jan 17 Perrysburg Levis Common news by WTOL:
"The town center opened in October of 2004 with a mix of shops and restaurents. Now, Levis Commons will undergo a $150 million expansion. The Main Street retail section will be extended to include a hotel and conference center and entertainment district. Separate from this will be Brownstone Village featuring 160 condos."
"Dillin says negotiations are under way for new tenants at the Main Street extension but won't reveal who they are."
That $150 million expansion makes the $35 million Westgate development look to puny to bother with. It may be necessary to back away and let Westfield Mall and Levis Commons take over. Maumee should abort its Fallen Timbers project. Ditto for the Marina District and Westgate projects. It's not that long of a drive for West Toledo residents to travel to Levis Commons if Westfield gets boring.
posted by jr at 11:42 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050429/BUSINESS10/504290372
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050428/BUSINESS07/504280386/0/BUSINESS
No mention of Westgate neighbors....
posted by psyche777 at 11:58 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
"In 2000, National Amusements obtained zoning of the Secor Road site for a proposed 18-screen theater that was to be similar to the Showcase Maumee theaters that it opened in 1997. Those plans were put on hold, however, after Westfield announced its $116 million plans to expand the mall and to include a theater inside."
The Westfield expansion was "only" $116 million and look at what it has done for that mall. Levis Commons plans a $150 million expansion. So what's the point in doing the tiny $35 million Westgate development?
I've changed my mind. I think the smart business thing to do is to sell the Westgate property and let someone else try to make a go of it, instead of trying to compete with Westfield, Levis Commons, and someday the Fallen Timbers mall in Maumee. That's probably why nothing has gone into the vacant Showcase theaters and Foodtown buildings in the Westgate area. Westfield Mall is too much of a force as the National Amusements story above indicates.
Toledo isn't so big that people will only drive to the stores in their immediate area. In 10 to 20 minutes, a person is at one of the other major shopping malls.
I cannot see what will be the draw of a new piddly little $35 million Westgate. If a shopper stops at Westgate, and then still believes he or she needs to stop at Westfield or Levis Commons, what's the point of stopping at Westgate at all? The new Westgate would have to offer some amazingly unique stores not found anywhere else in order to attract people beyond those living near Westgate.
Maybe Costco is one of those unique stores. If not, what is? Without a unique anchor, how can Westgate possibly come close to competing with the others? They can't, in my opinion. And even after the new Westgate opens, if it opens, many shoppers will already be used to the new Westfield Mall and Levis Commons, and they won't have an interest in Westgate beyond the initial novelty and curiosity period of a new shopping area.
I'm not sure how Maumee's Fallen Timbers mall will survive with the massive growth of nearby Levis Commons. How can Southwyck be turned into a retail shopping area? I wonder if the Levis Commons area will someday suck businesses away from Maumee's Arrowhead Park? For a business in Arrowhead, Levis Commons will become an attractive reason to escape the clutches of Lucas County government.
posted by jr at 09:47 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
Yes jr, I guess we all know that developers and retailers are only motivated by profit. People need to realize though, with the Westgate situation for example, we have one side who's goal is simply to max. profit. Area residents' goal - the walk westgate plan is obviously quite different. There needs to be compromise. (And it is now that I will admit that there are some in the Westgate neighbors association who may need to shut up a little bit more.) But with the new Westgate plan there does not seem to be any compromise. This is the way it looks in my eyes. If I am wrong call me out on it.
I apologize for whining in my earlier post. It was this comment that got me going:
I just wish people would realize that it is a free market and all of this complaining is going to cost us.
"It" is a "free" market. That really makes no sense Lloyd. I guess what you are trying to say is that nothing should be regulated. Well that is not how it works. Even in the United States, which is one of the most capitalistic economies in the world, there exists much regulation. Too much for your tastes maybe, but anyone with any understanding of economics or market theory would admit that a minimum amount of regualtion is necessary. Typical ignorant Rebublican talking way over his head. If you want to deregulate zoning do it in your own neigborhood. You just want to run your mouth like usual I guess.
posted by nick44 at 10:11 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
Maumee should abort its Fallen Timbers project.
That's still planned? Of all the fantasy projects in Northwest Ohio, the Fallen Timbers Mall takes the cake. Wasn't it originally supposed to be a multilevel indoor mall? I think for a while it was also supposed to be an outdoor strip mall. It's been everything but built.
posted by thenick at 10:44 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
Nick it sounds like you live in that area, which would mean of course it is more important to you than it would be from me sitting here in Springfield/Holland.
I will be the first one to admit the growth out here has not been overly pleasant and I have mixed emotions about the new Wal-mart opening right across from the High School. Traffic here is already a nightmare at times. I'm not anti-walmart, I'd feel the same if it was a Costco coming into that location.
Heck I remember when all of the current retail off of Airport Highway didn't even exist and this was all farmer's fields....Growth is good, new business is good, however it seems what has happened is the majority of times things move out more to the burbs leaving behind the vacant buildings of what used to be "the place to go".
posted by psyche777 at 10:50 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
Oct 25, 2005 Blade story:
"The Shops at Fallen Timbers retail project is moving forward after the Maumee Planning Commission last night approved a revised site plan."
Here are some quotes from the Liz Holland interview with Bob Frantz on Dec 30. I recorded Bob's show that night because I was headed out for the evening, and Bob was also interviewing McCloskey whose quotes were posted here.
Carty held a press conference on Mon Dec 26 at Westgate where Carty expressed support for the group opposing the new Westgate development.
On Wed Dec 28, a Westgate group held a press conference attacking Abbell's plans for the new Westgate.
Carty held another press conference on Thu Dec 29 where he announced the so-called group of "experts" that would develop the Carty plan.
From the Dec 29 conference:
"Mr. Finkbeiner stood with Lucas County Commissioners Pete Gerken and Tina Skeldon Wozniak in the shopping center to discuss their plans for it."
The following is from Bob Frantz's Dec 30, 2005 "Eye on Toledo" interview with Abbell CEO Liz Holland.
On Dec 29, Carty told Bob Frantz that he still doesn't support Costco coming to Westgate.
Liz called Carty's Dec 26 press conference positive.
Liz talked about the home owners living near Westgate ...
HOLLAND: I think that all of us as consumers recognize the attractiveness of living near vibrant, new retail development. And certainly Westgate today is not helping the home homers immediately behind us on Manchester and Hughes and then even further south and east in Old Orchard. But a revitalized Westgate, I have no doubt, and I have heard from the realtors in this regard, will do nothing but support what has become a somewhat weakened housing market there. Not so much weak visa vi Toledo but weak visa vi its competition in Maumee and Perrysburg where some very lovely homes are being built and a lot of families are choosing to locate down there because it's closer to the goods and services that they need on a weekly basis. And we hope to bring those goods and services back to Toledo and back to Westgate. And we think that all boats are going to rise in the tide. I think we've all seen that over at Franklin Park [Westfield Mall] since they did their beautiful renovation. So we have no doubt that there are aesthetic concerns. We've been very open to people's input on how they want it to look. Costco particularly has been exceedingly flexible in making sure that it's a beautiful building. So we think that the aesthetic issues can be addressed. And we have no doubt that we're going to help the homes and not hurt them.
Holland believes a new Westgate will make the nearby vacant Foodtown and Showcase theater buildings more attractive to developers.
Bob asked Liz about Carty and the county commissioners holding the Thu Dec 29 press conference on Liz's property without informing Liz of the conference and without inviting Liz to attend. When Liz heard about the conference on her property, she abruptly flew to Toledo. Carty had a press conference on Dec 26, which Liz flew in for. Then Liz flew back to Chicago. But then Carty held another press conference at Westgate on Dec 29, but Carty and his cabal didn't inform Liz. Liz found out about it and flew back to Toledo.
HOLLAND: I felt on Monday at Carty's initial press conference and I certainly felt yesterday that I was the hostess but it wasn't my party. So while I was happy to attend and I was glad that I was able to attend, I somewhat agree with you that it would have been nice if a call had been made directly to me to let me know about it, and I didn't have to learn about it third hand.
Bob asked Liz about the Carty cabal of experts meant to develop the Carty Plan.
HOLLAND: It's really unclear to me precisely what assistance they're actually going to be providing us. The new zoning code in the city of Toledo, the new design criteria that was implemented two years ago by the Toledo Lucas County plan commission incorporated a great many of the very, very good ideas that came out of that Walk Westgate process that we were exceedingly supportive of both with our time as well as with our money. So we believe that the standard that has been set by the city and the new zoning code and the new design criteria ... those are all wonderful ideas that came out of the Walk Westgate process that are now in the new zoning code and design criteria. We are happy to comply with those requirements. We have filed a request that only contains a couple of variances to those requirements because remember if I was dealing with a cornfield, I wouldn't need any waivers to the existing zoning codes ...
HOLLAND: I'm somewhat constrained as to what I can physically do. We want to make it the best project that we can. So we've asked for some limited waivers to make sure that we're complying both with the spirit as well as much as we can with the letter of the new zoning code and design criteria. We believe that's the bar. That's the bar we need to clear to get this project approved.
Bob asked what was the point of Carty bringing in Wilkowski unless the city expects to legally challenge Abbell's plan in order to force Costco out, which is what Carty wants. Carty wants Costco to go somewhere other than Westgate.
HOLLAND: In my mind, I hope that Costco goes into Westgate because my fear is that if Costco doesn't come into Westgate, it will go into the suburb of Toledo and not into the Toledo city and that would be a real loss both from sales tax perspective as well as from a property tax perspective as well as just a rejuvenation and redevelopment perspective.
Liz said they are waiting for the planning commission to approve Abbell's application. Liz mentioned the Jan 18 public meeting in Toledo where people can ask questions.
More about Carty's "experts":
HOLLAND: From a design perspective, I'm not sure if these two professional planners and architects are going to tell us how the Costco building should look. One of the great things about the new design criteria is that it requires our buildings to match. So you're not going to have this piece-meal-looking development which is so much of what the retail in Toledo's looks like.
About the cabal designing the Carty Plan:
HOLLAND: It's really hard for me to tell what their end-game is here ...
The Carty Cabal end-game. Ominous.
Bob then asked if the city's and county's opposition to the new Westgate will affect other potential business owners who may be thinking about investing in Toledo.
FRANTZ: It would appear to me that business owners may be turned off by this sort of intrusion by public officials.
HOLLAND: I think that there's no question that there's a real potential here for a chilling effect. We recently had new plans, real estate investment trust, a huge multi-state operation bought I believe three or four aging centers in need of redevelopment in Toledo. My hope is that they're not dissuaded from making further investments in those properties because it will help us all. But I agree with you there is the potential for a chilling effect here.
posted by jr at 12:10 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
psyche, I am sorry to hear about the Wal-Mart moving in across from the high school. That sounds like an awful idea.
I think that Airport Highway has become a mess as well. People with money have been moving west, and the retailers have been following right along with them. Most of the commercial development in Springfield/Holland/Maumee/Sylvania... is disorganized without any without any prior planning. I mean what the heck is going on with the Spring Meadows complex? There should be one discernable traffic loop. Instead you have people crisscrossing parking lots to navigate between stores that sprawl out with no uniformity. (Keep in mind I am an anal retentive programmer so it probably bothers me more than most).
You can argue both sides when it comes to zoning and market intervention, but it just seems that city and township officials in these areas didn't realize ahead of time that they had some leverage on retailers and developers. At this point it looks like someone had too much commercialism for lunch and vomited it all over Airport Highway/Central Avenue, etc...
posted by nick44 at 12:13 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
jr, I agree with some of Holland's points in the interview just posted. Commercially, the Westgate area will really benefit from the current Costco inclusive plan.
But residentially- c'mon. Ottawa Hills thrives on its own- a great school district, and a gestapo police force to name a couple reasons. Old Orchard benefits from the beauty of its' houses, and the fact that it is still a halfway safe place to live for those who have to live in city limits, U.T.professors, and those who enjoy a more urban feel. What hurts Old Orchard is the school district. Many move out when their children are hitting school age.
Proximity to good shopping is not a big influence on where people live. Haskins is booming and there is no shopping at all in that area.
Did Holland say that she spoke to real estate agents? Who? Besides, I know some succesful Real Estate agents, but they are not at all qualified to consult on this issue.
posted by nick44 at 12:32 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
nick44:
You got it right.
posted by madjack at 12:42 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
And unfortunately as people and developers move further west in the region between Airport Highway and Central Ave, the Oak Openings region gets destroyed. Once called a wasteland because its sandy soil wasn't good for farming, the Oak Openings region is now seeing a boom in development.
The Oak Openings region is not just Oak Openings Metropark. The Oak Openings region starts across the line in Michigan, runs through west Toledo and Sylvania and out past Toledo Express Airport to Oak Openings Metropark and Maumee State forest. You've probably seen the big piles of sand in developments in Sylvania and elsewhere in western Toledo. That's the Oak Openings region. Our yard near Douglas and Sylvania has that same soft, sandy soil.
The Oak Openings region is an old, narrow beach ridge that is home to an amazing array of wildlife, including some species not found elsewhere in Ohio. A billboard on Central Ave near Secor Metropark once said "Oak Openings, A Natural Wonder Disappering Near You."
Preservation groups and the Metroparks are trying to acquire as much land as possible in the Oak Openings region. Some of the money from the Metroparks levy passed a few years ago supports this cause.
Kitty Todd and probably some other parks in the Oak Openings region sell an excellent guide called "Living in the Oak Openings." A documentary that aired on WGTE is also for sale called "Oak Openings Region: Discovering Our Natural Heritage."
I bet most people in the area are unaware that this region exists. They're only aware of the metropark. They probably wonder what that brown sign along I-475 that says "Entering the Oak Openings Region" is doing there.
This weekend is a two-day conference at Wildwood and Oak Openings Metroparks titled "Oak Openings Research Forum." Well that's enough environmental preaching.
posted by jr at 12:51 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
"Did Holland say that she spoke to real estate agents? Who?"
Liz said, "I have heard from the realtors ..."
Tonight is your chance to tell Liz Holland in person what you think. A big opportunity.
"[Holland] plans a community meeting at 7 p.m. Jan. 18 at the Covenant Presbyterian Church at 3225 Markway Road to hear from residents."
That info is from a Dec 30 Blade story, so I don't know if anything has changed in terms of its time and location, but the meeting is tonight.
posted by jr at 01:01 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
I am stuck here at work until as late as 8 or 9. Hopefully my wife gets back into town in time to attend. As a criminal defense attorney, she is better suited. The woman debates for sport.
posted by nick44 at 02:21 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
What really honks me off is that there's absolutely NO thought on what all the nice people in Oregon, Northwood, Maumee, Perrysburg, etc want... and then you get the people from further away (BG, Port Clinton, Fremont) who shop in Toledo.
We get a little tired of some self-centered group of Toledoans screwing off and blowing away shopping WE would like to see. Or the continual screwing around with the Marina District, the alleged arena, the alleged ampitheatre, ... you get the idea.
If Toledo wants to dick off while Maumee and Perrysburg decide to invite development, if not in fact break out the kneepads, then everyone else within a certain distance of Toledo will be going to Maumee and Perrysburg instead of Toledo proper.
Someone ought to tell Carty to think about this sort of thing... but, ah, I'm sure since Carty doesn't know how these computer and Internet things work, he won't care what some guy says.
posted by anonymouscoward at 04:06 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
Thanks jr, my memory of that interview was her not being that negative on the idea of the Carty Plan, nor did she seem to think at that time it was going to create a Costo pullout.
The one you described last night seemed alot more negative. The one I just heard on Brian Wilson's show was even more so. While I agree business owners have the right to do what they want as long as they meet basic zoning and other guidelines both she and Brian did not mention the abatement or other financial costs the city has been asked to make. The meeting tonight is as listed above, she stated that she has not had any negative letters from people who live in that area that 100% of the letters have been in support of what she is trying to do and have apologized for the "bad" behavior of the Carty administration.
ps...it was nice meeting you.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 05:38 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
The "problem" with Spring Meadows is split municipal jurisdiction. WalMart is locating within the boundaries of the Village of Holland. Developers tried unsuccessfully to get several less intense developments going on that land but ran into numerous roadblocks with Springfield Township zoning. One of the former trustees (Sue Meek) wanted land set aside for a park behind the old Wickes up against the railroad tracks in exchange for allowing development. They were ludicrous. The developers went to Holland and Holland said come on in! Ironically, Holland's zoning code and Springfield Twsp's code nearly mirror each other. The differences are not terribly siginificant. I travel through that area frequently. I figure the day that god awful WalMart opens is the last day I go south of Angola Rd on Mc Cord. I just want my Costco membership sooner rather than later.
posted by holland at 06:06 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
It was good to meet you yesterday, psyche777. Like you said, maybe a local blogger meetup can be organized some time this year, sort of like the Toledo nerd gatherings.
It appears last night's public meeting may have provided some entertainment. Now I wish I would have attended. Some news info about Wednesday's private and public Westgate meetings:
1. "The Finkbeiner-Wozniak follows the design concept of an "urban village," much like what's already been built at Levis Commons in Perrysburg, and other shopping areas around the country. An architect on the faculty of the University of Michigan drew up the new plans."
"The Finkbeiner-Wozniak plan was not discussed among developers, neighbors, or Westgate owners, but after the meeting, a representative for the company that owns Westgate said the plan wouldn't work, but there was room for compromise. "They've agreed to look at our fully-engineered site plan and make suggestions to it to help incorporate some of their considerations," said Liz Holland who's the CEO of Abbell Credit Corp, principal owners of Westgate."
2. "Costco was the focus of a public meeting for people living nearby. Store representatives talked for the first time about their plan to be the main anchor store. Company spokesman Brian Whalen said one positive, is how it treats workers. He says Costco employees earn more than any other store in the retail industry, with entry-level clerks beginning at ten dollars an hour, including benefits."
3. "Plans for Westgate Shopping Center were the topic of conversation Wednesday night in a standing-room only meeting at Covenant Presbyterian Church."
"Holland feels the controversy is being blown out of proportion. In the end, redevelopment of Westgate would be a huge boon for the city. What you have here right now is $35,000,000 of private investment and an employer on the hook that's going to bring good jobs, and that's not something we need to jeopardize." "
4. "Brian Whelan from Costco met with a packed house at the Covenant Presbyterian Church to set the record straight about his store. He says, they are not like Walmart or Sam's Club. The average worker makes $17 an hour, plus benefits. Whelan also says they have no intention to crush the little guy."
"The new project will keep several of the current stores like Barry's Bagels and Steinmart."
From what I've heard, Beaner's won't be in the new Westgate. Beaner's can't be in the new Westgate because Starbucks has exclusive rights to sell coffee in the new Westgate. Apparently, Starbucks and Costco are joined at the hip when it comes to new developments. If a new Costco goes in, so does a Starbucks. Levis Commons doesn't have a Costco, but it has a Starbucks. Obviously, Starbucks negotiates wicked deals with all new developments, just like any franchise store, which is what dominates these new strip malls. So hopefully people express the same disdain for Starbucks as they do for the other chains coming into the new Westgate.
For those who love to hate Walmart, Starbucks is the Walmart of coffee shops. Starbucks is the Big Evil of coffee shops. But in Toledo, our public officials rail against Walmart and revere Starbucks.
When the Starbucks opened on Talmadge, that was Toledo's first stand-alone Starbucks. Mayor Ford attended the grand opening of the Talmadge Starbucks. The Toledo City Paper wrote a glowing review of the Talmadge Starbucks about how wonderful it was to finally have a Starfucks in Toledo, and that Toledo was finally a real city because it had a Starbucks. It's extremely hypocritical to hate Walmart and love Starbucks.
The Toledo area has several, wonderfully cool, hip, and unique independent coffee and now tea shops that are also community gathering places. It's unfortunate that the Starbucks cancer has been allowed to invade our city.
5. "A plan to build a Costco store in the Westgate Village Shopping Center riled Toledos new mayor, sparked a war of words with the owners, and last night brought more than 200 residents to a meeting to ask questions."
"Some questioned why Mayor Carty Finkbeiner and other elected officials criticized the plans of the shopping centers owners and spent taxpayer money to hire a University of Michigan planner to come up with an alternative."
I love this fact:
"Mr. Finkbeiner did not attend the session at Covenant Presbyterian Church, 3225 Markway Rd."
What a coward. He comes up with his own plan, and he can't make himself available for public comment like Liz Holland, other Abbell people, and Coscto did.
"[Holland] said tax abatement helps with the cost of borrowing the money. Holland said the grants are needed to help with the cost of demolition."
Well, this dead horse has been beaten enough. Let the maggots and vultures pick over the carcass. Thinking about it some more, Westgate isn't really that significant when looking at the big picture. Westgate's importance is extremely overrated. You think the city will devote this much time and have this much concern for the area around Southwyck? I wonder if the affluent neighborhoods around Westgate cause the city to focus more concern on Westgate instead of Southwyck? Which area is more likely to donate more political campaign dollars?
Toledo possibly getting the GM Powertrain expansion and development in the Marina District are far, far more important to the city than a little shopping mall.
Thackeray's is gone, and it won't be coming back. I think the Vineyard is leaving Westgate. Not sure about the Port Royal Cigar Shop and Radio Shack. Abbell plan, Carty plan, No plan, what makes the difference? I've finally seen the light about this. And I guess I really don't care what happens with Westgate. I want to see the Marina District take off.
posted by jr at 09:37 A.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
Thanks for the update jr. The urban village plan will not really work with Costco coming in. So be it. If Abbell is willing to compromise a little then that is pretty fair in the end.
As for Carty, I agree. He is a coward. I never really understood his intentions. But now I think it is confirmed. He has been paying lip service to local residents. (And shelling out tax payer dollars for another frivolous study.) I too hope Carty realizes it is time to shift his concerns to the marina district and Southwyck. Man, did I really just say that? No, he should just shut up and stay out of the way. Go hang out at Navy Bistro with his buddy Cousino and be the arrogant ass that he is.
posted by nick44 at 12:16 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
Why jr, watch that f-bomb... :) Actually, since I can't really drink coffee (the last few times I had some because it was warm & I wasn't going to screw around with tea, and I regretted it later), I have no real reason to give much of a damn about CoffeeWhore there... but I totally agree on the subject of CoffeeWhore being a cancer.
"Mr. Finkbeiner did not attend the session at Covenant Presbyterian Church, 3225 Markway Rd."
What a coward. He comes up with his own plan, and he can't make himself available for public comment like Liz Holland, other Abbell people, and Coscto did.
And certain people think *I* am a coward. Y'all should be getting out the Recall Carty stuff. Better yet, put up "CARTY IS A COWARD" signs in your yards. Any business that expresses anti-Carty sentiment would give me serious reason to go to Toledo and stop in.
WADR though, Thackeray's was done when Borders announced it was moving into The Mall, if not when Books A Million zipped into Levis Commons.
As for Carty, I agree. He is a coward. I never really understood his intentions. But now I think it is confirmed. He has been paying lip service to local residents. (And shelling out tax payer dollars for another frivolous study.) I too hope Carty realizes it is time to shift his concerns to the marina district and Southwyck. Man, did I really just say that? No, he should just shut up and stay out of the way. Go hang out at Navy Bistro with his buddy Cousino and be the arrogant ass that he is.
Why is it that there's nobody in Toledo that really has the balls to go about un-electing him if he sucks so much?
And anyway, he doesn't care about your comment... it's on the Internet, and he's said (at least the way I see it) that he doesn't give a flying fork at a rolling donut about people's opinions of him, ESPECIALLY if they're on the Internet.
Personally I'd really really REALLY love it if he ever managed to grow even a quarter of a ball and show up on this forum. Alas, you Toledoans have more of a right to take it to him than I do.
posted by anonymouscoward at 12:57 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
Speaking of removing Carty, I'll detail the procedure so y'all don't have to go through looking it up:
-----
§ 705.92. Procedure for removal by recall
Any elective officer of a municipal corporation may be removed from office by the qualified voters of such municipal corporation. The procedure to effect such removal shall be:
(A) A petition signed by qualified electors equal in number to at least fifteen per cent of the total votes cast at the most recent regular municipal election, and demanding the election of a successor to the person sought to be removed, shall be filed with the board of elections. Such petition shall contain a general statement in not more than two hundred words of the grounds upon which the removal of such person is sought. The form, sufficiency, and regularity of any such petition shall be determined as provided in the general election laws.
(B) If the petition is sufficient, and if the person whose removal is sought does not resign within five days after the sufficiency of the petition has been determined, the legislative authority Ε shall thereupon order and fix a day for holding an election to determine the question of the removal of the elective officer, and for the selection of a successor to each officer named in said petition. Such election shall be held not less than thirty nor more than forty days from the time of the finding of the sufficiency of such petition. The election authorities shall publish notice and make all arrangements for holding such election, which shall be conducted and the result thereof returned and declared in all respects as are the results of regular municipal elections.
(C) The nomination of candidates to succeed each officer sought to be removed shall be made, without the intervention of a primary election, by filing with the election authorities, at least twenty days prior to such special election, a petition proposing a person for each such office, signed by electors equal in number to ten per cent of the total votes cast at the most recent regular municipal election for the head of the ticket.
(D) The ballots at such recall election shall, with respect to each person whose removal is sought, submit the question: "Shall (name of person) be removed from the office of (name of office) by recall?"
Immediately following each such question, there shall be printed on the ballots, the two propositions in the order set forth:
"For the recall of (name of person)."
"Against the recall of (name of person)."
Immediately to the left of the proposition shall be placed a square in which the electors may vote for either of such propositions.
Under each of such questions shall be placed the names of candidates to fill the vacancy. The name of the officer whose removal is sought shall not appear on the ballot as a candidate to succeed the officer's self.
In any such election, if a majority of the votes cast on the question of removal are affirmative, the person whose removal is sought shall be removed from office upon the announcement of the official canvass of that election, and the candidate receiving the plurality of the votes cast for candidates for that office shall be declared elected. The successor of any person so removed shall hold office during the unexpired term of the successor's predecessor. The question of the removal of any officer shall not be submitted to the electors until such officer has served for at least one year of the term during which he is sought to be recalled. The method of removal provided in this section, is in addition to such other methods as are provided by law. If, at any such recall election, the incumbent whose removal is sought is not recalled, the incumbent shall be repaid the incumbent's actual and legitimate expenses for such election from the treasury of the municipal corporation, but such sum shall not exceed fifty per cent of the sum that the incumbent is by law permitted to expend as a candidate at any regular municipal election.
-----
You can't tell me you can't get 15% of the people that voted in the last Toledo election to sign a petition to recall Carty.
Come on, jr, why don't YOU start the Carty recall and run to replace him.
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:02 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
Oh yeah, I slipped in that one Star*ucks word.
"Mr. Finkbeiner did not attend the session at Covenant Presbyterian Church, 3225 Markway Rd."
I believe the public meeting was Abbell's, so that may be why Carty wasn't there.
"[Holland] plans a community meeting at 7 p.m. Jan. 18 at the Covenant Presbyterian Church at 3225 Markway Road to hear from residents."
Then again, since it was a community meeting, anyone could attend. I wonder if Carty was invited by Holland to speak, since Carty's team has proposed an alternative plan? If not invited, when will Carty-Wozniak-Wilkowksi hold a public meeting to take questions about their plan? Seems like last night would have been the opportunity for both sides to speak to the public and take questions and comments from residents.
Recall Carty? He only took office a couple of weeks ago, although it feels longer than that. If he and Pizzuti manage to get Bass Pro Shops in the Marina District, then I don't care what he does with Westgate. Carty made a bunch of promises before the election, including, I think, achieving something with Southwyck by the end of this year. So we'll wait and see.
Good and/or bad, one thing is for sure, Carty has been active since the Nov election. And that might wake up more Toledoans to care about the city in some way.
The Recall Mayor Ford website didn't get anywhere, although it had an active and entertaining message board. The voters spoke in September and November, so let's see what the politicans do. If the voters aren't satisfied, the best way to recall a politician is to vote for someone else at the next election. If another choice exists.
I think the problem is not who the voters chose, but that fact that at least 60% of Toledoans didn't vote in November and nearly 80% didn't vote in the September primary when more choices were available. This could be support for AC's argument against primaries. Or people need to pay attention and not be so lazy and get out and vote.
In late May, a poll showed Ford in trouble. Wilkowski announced his mayoral campaign in early June. Why didn't Wilkowski announce his intentions in April or in January? His run for mayor would have looked more legitimate to me if he had announced earlier in 2005 or even in late 2004. With more time, Wilkowski may have cracked the top two in the September primary. With only a three-month campaign, he came real close.
September primary results:
Carty Finkbeiner ... 15283 ... 36.74%
Jack Ford ... 10910 ... 26.23%
Keith Wilkowski ... 9750 ... 23.44%
With three to six more months of lead time, couldn't Keith have made up that 3%?
posted by jr at 02:20 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
Electing this guy is a step backwards for this area. Not even a month into the job and he's meddling where he's not wanted. Carty has a history of not playing well with others, and this is no surprise.
It's pretty bad when a 2 term elected mayor can't use his tenure as a springboard onto a larger stage, say, Ohio politics, but has to come back to the same old position he had four years ago.
But that's the person the majority of Toledo wanted. You made your bed, now sleep in it.
posted by timault at 03:24 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
jr, that was interesting about Starbucks, and that will be a big blow to Barry Bagels since Beaners is a part of their business.
Miguel says they are lined out the door some mornings in Maumee at Beaners, I'd assume the morning business at Westgate is similar given how busy it was when I stopped by there yesterday before I met with you and Ben. (I am a confirmed addict to their potato salad)
I personally don't think that's right since it is a part of that location at this point.
:-)
Hopefully the Toledo edition of Meet the Bloggers will have some information soon, as we discussed I'd like to see it be all political parties as well. I think it's important we have the ability to go beyond political parties, having information from all sides is the way to go. Pierce the Libertarian Candidate met with the MTB in Cleveland before I was involved.
posted by psyche777 at 03:56 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
AC-
And anyway, he doesn't care about your comment... it's on the Internet
So I guess you have never commented on Carty in this venue.
Oh and I hope the not having any balls comment wasn't directed toward anyone specifically.
posted by nick44 at 05:16 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
JR- Wilkowski's loss in the primaries was a huge dissapointment. I donated a little money, but did not volunteer my time to his campaign. Shame on me. He is a good guy and, in my opinion was the only viable candidate. Why he waited so long I have no idea, but at this point I personally would not want to rub his face in it.
My closest experiences with the local party, and Wilkowski was while working on the Kerry campaign. (Until then my only campaign experience was with the Greens). My low opinion of the locals pretty much bottomed out when it was all over. Most are very self serving- big surprise. Keith was passionate about the campaign though. He was really taking it to heart. And while I am on the subject I have to give props to Frank Szollosi as well for all of the work he did.
Maybe the young democrats will have a future impact. Otherwise, we will see more of the same in office.
posted by nick44 at 06:38 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
If he and Pizzuti manage to get Bass Pro Shops in the Marina District, then I don't care what he does with Westgate.
Well said. Perhaps Carty is hedging his bets and he feels he can be risky with Westgate since there seems to be local opposition anyways.
I probably wouldn't risk it, but then again I am not mayor.
posted by lloyd at 10:33 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
nick44, I didn't think I was rubbing Wilkowski's face into anything. I thought I was stating facts and asking basic questions. He was treasurer or something in the PAC that was created to support Ford. And then he becomes an opponent of Ford.
If a gun was at my head last September, and I had to choose a name on the ballot, I would have voted for Keith. The way he jumped into the campaign rubbed me the wrong way. So I wrote in a friend's name who I felt was more intelligent than the candidates. In November, I skipped over the choice for mayor. Is it possible for Keith to run for Council or some other position in the near future?
posted by jr at 12:43 P.M. EST on Fri Jan 20, 2006 #
I didn't really mean it that way jr. After reading your point, I was kind of thinking if I ever ran into Keith, I would like to ask him myself. Face to face- "So why did you wait until June to annonce your candidacy" might be pouring salt on the wound. Mentioning in in a blog not so much.
I don't blame you for not voting for anyone with alliances to one of the local dem factions. To me, Keith seemed intelligent and a bit more of a man of the people. That is not an informed opinion as much as a personal one based on just a few conversations.
posted by nick44 at 01:54 P.M. EST on Fri Jan 20, 2006 #
Jan 21 Blade story that, I think, shows why people don't like politicians.
"The LCIC, a board recently given new power to bring life to the county's economy, is considering paying the $9,000 bill for creating an alternative Westgate Village Shopping Center plan."
Wozniak, Gerken, why is county government involved? It's bad enough that city government is messed up with this, but what's the point of the county pols? Has this question been answered previously? Do the people in Whitehouse, Waterville, Oregon, Maumee, etc. care about Westgate?
Some smarts exist on the LCIC:
"The new LCIC board did not vote on the $9,000 request. But it debated the issue, exposing fears among some members that interference in the normal planning process by Mr. Finkbeiner and county commissioners may scare the retailer and future investments away. Barbara Sheehan, a Washington Township resident who serves on the board said the county is running the risk of appearing unfriendly to business."
Here we go ...
"Others on the board or at the meeting, including Bob Reinbolt, the mayor's chief of staff, said it was government's responsibility to demand the best of new development because entire sec-tions of town are affected."
"Mr. Reinbolt said Ms. Holland was motivated by the profit of the deal and not thinking about the larger Westgate community. "Remember, the person you're talking about is the owner, and she's driven by what she wants," he said. Later, he added: "She's the owner so she's driven by the financial aspect."
Are those great revelations by Reinbolt? When is a for-profit, private business owner not thinking about profit and the financial aspects of the business?
Back to the county ...
"Mr. Gerken said the community has the right to ask for the highest standards."
What a fascinating thought by Gerken a politician. That thought could be applied to other aspects of life, such as the politicians that are supposedly serving the community.
The highest standards, eh? Why are Lucas County commissioners involved? Wait a minute, not all of them are involved. Where's Maggie Thurber? Why are Wozniak and Gerken excluding Thurber?
Earlier this month, we got news about the new arena moving forward in some fashion. Gerken is leading the way with this latest news.
The other day I heard Thurber on Frantz's show, and she said she was excluded from this latest arena idea or plan. Has Thurber also been excluded from the county's involvement with Westgate?
Here's an Aug 18, 2005 observation by intrepid in a topic called "New arena going to county."
"So the County's willing to step forward and put together a finance package like it did for the Mud Hens stadium? Wonder who Gerken checked with before making THAT decision. I'm sure he didn't discuss this in any back-room outside of the sunshine laws and open meeting laws....But, as he's been heard to say, he decides, tells Tina what they're going do and they don't bother with the 'other one.'"
On Frantz's show, Thurber mentioned the sunshine laws could have been violated by Gerken over this month's arena plan.
Here's a topic from Dec 8, 2004, which I think is about the formation of what is called the LCIC:
"Toledo Mayor Jack Ford and two key Lucas County leaders have agreed to merge economic development departments, an accord reached after private discussions that successfully skirted a state law against creating public policy in secret."
"Mr. Ford, county Commissioner Tina Skeldon Wozniak, and county Commissioner-elect Pete Gerken, all Democrats, have agreed in principle to merge the city and county departments, potentially marshaling up to $4.5 million in resources to create and attract new jobs to the county."
Where was Thurber?
It seems Gerken, a former Toledo City Councilman, has made multiple violations of the sunshine laws, and he's the one saying the community has the right to ask for the highest standards. Too funny.
posted by jr at 01:47 P.M. EST on Sat Jan 21, 2006 #
Letters to the editor in the Jan 27 Blade.
1. "On the surface, the Westgate project appears to suffer from political posturing, paralysis, and lack of strategic leadership that leave Toledo with vacant downtown waterfront property, an ice hockey franchise with no respectable place to play, and acres of suffocating commercial property throughout the city."
"What appears to be unique with Westgate, though, is a longtime property owner who has decided to take a new approach and appears to be willing to play by the latest Toledo rules of the game. This new strategy for Westgate may not be popular with all parties; development rarely is. But in this case we have someone who wants to invest in Toledo, to provide a new shopping experience in a desirable area of the city."
"But wait, something is wrong. Let's see what can be done to delay, debate, and express serious doubts about whether this development is worse than more years of no development and more taxpayer dollars for further studies."
2. "There are a lot of uppity residents in the Westgate area. These people can't appreciate the fact that someone like Costco would be willing to build in their area. They complain about all of the asphalt in the plans. Well, what's out there now?"
"Also, it is the residents' fault that there is an empty hulk instead of a movie theater. The theater owners wanted to put the theater in the back instead of the front of the lot? Unthinkable! I don't blame National Amusements for jumping ship to the mall instead."
"Walk Westgate? Please. These guys need to ask themselves how many of them actually walk to the stores in the area. If they are too good to have big business in their area, I'm willing to bet that they're also too good to actually walk places."
3. "I find it incredible that Toledo officials are doing an awful lot to discourage Costco from coming to Toledo. Well, I have a suggestion for Costco. Come to Wood County. We would welcome a business such as theirs. And we have the space available."
"I bet the people who operate Crossroads of America between U.S. 20-23 and State Rt. 795 would love to make available the space for a large store, a gas station, and plenty of parking. There are restaurants, supermarkets, and other retailers already there."
"So come on, Costco, give up on the crybabies in Toledo. This Wood County resident welcomes Costco. And besides, the area I described is easily accessible from the two aforementioned routes and also the Ohio Turnpike and I-75."
Jan 27 Blade story:
"A 200,000-square-foot Wal-Mart Supercenter has been proposed for the northwest corner of U.S. 20 and Simmons Road in Perrysburg Township. The proposed supercenter, to be built on 30 acres, would include a grocery section, a 1,000-space parking lot, and a future gas station."
"If the plans are approved, the supercenter could open in late 2007. It would compete with nearby Giant Eagle, Kroger, and Meijer stores for grocery business."
If Toledo causes Costco to pull out of Westgate, would Costco consider the Crossroads of America area now that a Wal-Mart will be nearby along with the other stores mentioned above?
Get over your aversion to asphalt
A couple of the letters-to-the-editor referenced asphalt parking lots as being a complaint some have with the Abbell Westgate plan. Does Carty and the rest of the opposition realize parking is necessary?
One thing I learned from last summer's Marina District meeting was that we need to get over our hangup with asphalt. Basically, if you don't have enough parking, the consumers will go elsewhere. And you don't build parking to only handle the average-sized crowd. You build enough parking to handle the max.
Some of my notes from last summer about asphalt:
"The architect hired by Pizzuti said that if you looked at an aerial photo of these new malls or "lifestyle centers" like Levis Commons in Perrysburg, you would be shocked at the amount of area that is dedicated to asphalt for parking. He said the key design issue is how the asphalt is laid out with the building development. Another developer told me that Toledo officials have a definite aversion with asphalt that could hinder the success of development projects."
"At the beginning of our group meeting last Saturday [in June 2005], Don Monroe, executive director of the River East Economic Revitalization Corp, told us that the most common development in the Marina District project will be asphalt. And we needed to come to grips with that fact."
The current Westgate has nearly all the asphalt on one side. The new Abbell plan depicted in this drawing breaks up the asphalt parking with mulitple buildings. Click to enlarge.
Some notes from Liz Holland's August press conference:
"Liz said one major drawback to the current design of Westgate is the amount of parking space in front of the building with little to no parking in back. It's lopsided, in other words. The new plan brings the stores closer to the road."
posted by jr at 11:09 A.M. EST on Fri Jan 27, 2006 #
Jan 26 Blade story:
"Some Toledo Plan Commission members were angered by Mayor Carty Finkbeiner's contention Costco and big-money developers could influence their votes."
"On a radio morning call-in show Tuesday, a day after his State of the City address, the mayor said threats that Costco Wholesale Corp. might scrap its plans if it does not get its way might sway members. He said it was his job to make sure Westgate was protected against "intimidation." "
What morning radio call-in show?
Carty said:
"Developers have lots of money. Developers know how to influence people extremely well. They know how to threaten, 'We'll pull out if we don't get our way 100 percent.'
I heard that threat made. If you don't think that wealthy developers don't know how to influence votes on plan commissions and so forth, then you are more naive than I thought you were."
Old Carty is definitely back, baby.
More from the story:
"The elected officials say the current blueprint is not pedestrian-friendly, has too big a parking lot, and its design will not stand the test of time. They say it should be more an urban village as envisioned in a master plan completed about a decade ago."
A master plan from 10 years ago? Why weren't the concepts from that 10-year-old master plan added to the city's zoning codes?
More ...
"[Holland] said her plan follows the law."
"Annoyed by the mayor's comments, plan commission members shot back yesterday. Jerry Sawicki III told fellow commission members that he found it "ironic and unbelievable" that the mayor, who touted teamwork in his Monday speech, could be divisive only a day later."
Sawicki said:
"It's almost psychotic. You're one or the other. You're either for unifying the community or you're against it. Asking this body, this commission, to go beyond the scope of our authority on [Mr. Finkbeiner's] whim is inappropriate."
Okay, here's what's confusing to me. We have the LCIC involved or not involved? I don't know now. Where is the money coming from to pay for the Carty Plan? County commissioners Gerken and Wozniak, however, have been involved in this Toledo project.
But ...
"Mr. Sawicki serves on the county plan commission and won't have a vote on the shopping center matter Feb. 2 when the Toledo Plan Commission takes it up."
Now wait a minute. If the county is involved, which is what I thought Toledo wanted, you know, unigov, then why is the matter only being decided by Toledo's planning commission and not the county's? Carty wanted the LCIC to pay for his plan even though the county planning commission doesn't get to vote.
Jan 24 Blade story:
"So [Carty, Wozniak, and Gerken] hired University of Michigan planner Douglas Kelbaugh and former mayoral candidate Keith Wilkowski, a lawyer, to come up with an alternative. Their fee is up to $9,000, which has become controversial, in part, because the newly re-formed Lucas County Improvement Corp, is being asked to pay for it."
This is why the rest of Lucas County doesn't trust Toledo when the idea of shared services comes up. If county officials and money are involved, then people like Sawicki need to have a vote on the Toledo project.
posted by jr at 01:50 P.M. EST on Fri Jan 27, 2006 #
jr - County plan commission members took offense at Carty's comment - and rightfully so. The County plan commission only handles issues from the unincorporated areas of the county - primarily the townships. The cities and villages have their own plan commissions.
The LCIC was only asked to pay the bill for the architect and lawyer - not to have any other involvement.
That bill was pulled from the full board agenda and presented at a special meeting of the LCIC executive committee. No surprise, but they approved paying the bill.
Finally, the "Walk Westgate" plan was never approved. It was only presented in draft form and NEVER adopted. So elected officials need to either get it adopted or quit insisting that developers follow it.
posted by MaggieThurber at 02:06 P.M. EST on Fri Jan 27, 2006 #
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