Good job Psyche.
posted by madjack at 01:45 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 23, 2006 #
I think it is far too early to make judgment of Finkbeiner's appointments, especially with regard to minority representation. We are a mere 20 days into the new term.
How about the quality people of color that Carty retained, like fire chief Mike Bell? Or sharp people that Carty hired (in his previous term), like Juanita Greene?
Now, if we were a year into the mayor's term, it would be a significant story if Carty's appointments in some glaring way did not reflect the makeup of the community.
(note: historymike is NOT a proponent of quotas, but he believes that there should be some sensible demographic correlation between the government and the people it represents. If a city in which 24% of the population is African American had, say, only 6% of its top personnel who were black, that would probably indicate some problem that needed to be addressed).
As far as Robert Gilchrist, one of the major components to the Blade story - I have never met him, so I hesitate to offer much in the way of commentary. However, I have never heard someone villified as much as Gilchrist by people I spoke with in various city departments.
Could Gilchrist be the victim of axe-grinding? Yes. Do people sometimes have hidden agendas when they rip another person? Yes.
However, I am a firm believer that where there is smoke, there is usually some fire. Also, note that the Blade lists the steam plant as one of Gilchrist's major accomplishments.
(****sound of crickets chirping*****)
Finally, I think the bigger issue is not one of race, but one of "B" Team payback, as Lisa hinted. Loyal "A" Teamers are getting shut out of many positions not because of race or qualifications, but because they were on the losing team.
Politics is an ugly business...
posted by historymike at 02:48 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 23, 2006 #
There's always some political payback involved, despite the lip service. Ford did the same thing, it happens on all levels. Governors, Presidents, etc., they naturally want people that are going to support what their goals are as a part of their administration. Big Business is no different, a new CEO comes in and there are usually some management changes. Sometimes it goes to far, like Frank being removed as Chair and being replaced with Bob McCloskey. Sometimes it's a simple matter of having a different vision.
I just get tired of race being used or the impression that this is somehow "new" when it's not something that is new....
posted by psyche777 at 03:13 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 23, 2006 #
How do the black and hispanic communities feel about Carty? Until Balderas was appointed, City Council lost one black and one hispanic.
Seems to me that both groups are wondering what happened to their city. The first black mayor gets beaten in an ugly contest and two black women, Hicks-Hudson and Hancock-McConnell lose and the only hispanic candidate, Bob Vasquez, finishes #7, out of the race.
Hispanics must find it an insult that a 22-year-old girl with no community involvement and no experience in the affairs of the city is appointed, while Bob Vasquez, a mature, highly-involved community volunteer gets side-lined.
Then there is this gang taskforce that Carty loves to assemble and tear into neighborhoods, sucking up the same blacks and hispanics that were dismissed at the ballot box.
I see racial trouble down the road here in Toledo.
posted by limedrops911 at 04:00 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 23, 2006 #
Well limedrops, given Taylor Balderas was endorsed by The Hispanic/Latino Caucus of the Lucas County Democratic Party
And?
Latino caucus elects officers—Contreras, Contreraz, and Balderas
Last Saturday, the Lucas County Democratic Hispanic/Latino Caucus elected new officers: Danny Contreras, president; Rosalinda Contreraz, vice president, and Taylor Balderas, recording secretary. The terms are for two years.
I'd say it appears Taylor has a great deal of support within the Hispanic Community. Nor do I know any hispanics that are disappointed, they are to happy that she is not only hispanic but youngest woman to ever serve on council.
As to your question on blacks? I'm sure they are also noting that Phil Copeland was the top vote getter in the City Council race.
As to why McConnell-Hancock lost we all know that was not related to race.
posted by psyche777 at 04:32 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 23, 2006 #
Some people should realize that the 'race card' has been played so many times that it's like being the third joker in a deck of cards.
Competent people will get/retain their positions. Others will not. And yes, the term competent is up for debate. But in defense of the Mayor's office (the office, not necessarily Carty) that position provides the necessary lattitudes to hire the folks the Mayor wants in those positions.
If I hear Mike Ashford start with his chronic "it's because he/she was African American" crap one more time I'm gonna lose it! That man is the epitome of REVERSE discrimination. And arrogant as hell, too!
posted by DoknowDocare at 05:02 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 23, 2006 #
And, in little more than a week Toledo gets to celebrate/observe Black History Month ;-)
Maybe the "A" and "B" teams will come together in fellowship and sing... Nahhhh...
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 08:23 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 23, 2006 #
I have no problem with Black History month. It's a valuable part of world history.
I just get tired as hell of using race as the ONLY reason someone doesn't get promoted, hired, recognized, etc. I'm sure it could NEVER be that the person is not qualified for whichever position he/she is attempting to get/keep.
posted by DoknowDocare at 11:16 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 23, 2006 #
I get frustrated with it being used so often as well. It's almost become the classic example of the boy who cried wolf syndrome. That's not to say acts of discrimination don't happen but not everything is race oriented. If you aren't doing the job the way the "new" boss wants it done or he has a different idea that has nothing to do with what color you are. Nor do any of these employees have any kind of a long term contract. You know when you are hired that it is not civil service.
posted by psyche777 at 11:26 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 23, 2006 #
Yes, McConnell-Hancock nuked herself.
"How do the black and hispanic communities feel about Carty? Until Balderas was appointed, City Council lost one black and one hispanic. Seems to me that both groups are wondering what happened to their city."
What about Robert Torres getting elected to the Toledo Public School Board back in November? Isn't he Hispanic? According to Torres's resume:
"Office of Latino Affairs, Director 2003 - Present
Responsible for the development and implementation of policies, programs,
and initiatives promoting the advancement of the Latino community in
matters of employment, education and economic development. Advisor to
the Mayor, Toledo City Council and the City of Toledo’s Hispanic Affairs
Commission on Latino-related matters."
This La Prensa story says Robert Torres used to be president of the Lucas County Democratic Hispanic/Latino Caucus.
Torres was part of the Three For Change, which was endorsed by:
African American Parents Association
Toledo Alliance of Black School Educators
And two of the three got elected to the school board.
posted by jr at 11:54 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 23, 2006 #
Who could blame Carty for wanting to rid himself of Ford's staff? Ford had a habit of not only hiring blacks but, hiring his buddys...qualified or not. Racism? Jack's comments quoted in the Toledo journal were nothing short of racism. "I enjoy it when white businessmen see the picture of malcom x in my office and their knees buckle" -Jack Ford as quoted in the Toledo journal. The entire mayor's office needed to be cleaned and disinfected of this crap.
posted by sepp at 06:00 A.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
I must respond to some of the comments posted above. I am disappointed but not surprised by the subtle racial innuendos [and overt racism] extant in the comments.
The entire mayor's office needed to be cleaned and disinfected of this crap.
Back in the 40's and 50's my mother had a colored cleaning lady do her housework on Fridays.
She was 'instructed' to use paper towels, not the cloth hand towels that our family used, to wipe her hands before eating her lunch.
Looks like sepp is right in tune with this era and its racist beliefs.
Yes, McConnell-Hancock nuked herself... Torres was part of the Three For Change, which was endorsed by:
African American Parents Association
Toledo Alliance of Black School Educators
Jr-- what does this prove? Three of the highest offices held by blacks or Hispanics went to whites. Perhaps you too feel that 'they' got the dogcatcher position and ought to be real glad of that?
Further, by trotting out two relatively unknown groups who 'endorsed' Torres, does not add credibility to your argument. Just who are these folks: Toledo Alliance of Black School Educators?? African American Parents Association?? Tell me, jr, do you feel that these two groups adequately represent the ideals and the hopes of the black community in Toledo?
I'd say it appears Taylor has a great deal of support within the Hispanic Community. Nor do I know any hispanics that are disappointed, they are to happy that she is not only hispanic but youngest woman to ever serve on council.
Psyche-- The fact that you admit that you do not know any disappointed Hispanics does not negate my comments. Perhaps you do not know many Hispanics.
To all of those who made comments above-- To me it looks like 'The Door' was opened a crack and and many of you walked in and got a lot of repressed cultural 'issues' off of your chest.
The point of my post was to point out that the people of color in Toledo have clearly noted that three high-ranking city offices, once held by people of color, now have white faces. Do you all believe that our minority groups are blind to this fact?
While some of the remarks you have made about these people may be valid, the reality is that more Anglos are city government officers.
Finally, the comment, Yes, McConnell-Hancock nuked herself. is rather odd. Apparently, it is not OK for a black woman to attempt to skirt the law and, as a result, the voters 'punished' her for legal shenanigans? Am I reading this correctly?
Yet it appears from your comment that if it is a white lady and a white man 'skirting the law,' then they can be duly re-elected regardless of their previous specious actions. Did I understand this correctly? Is that why Betty Shultz was able to win? Is that why Bob McCloskey finished second highest?
White makes right?
posted by limedrops911 at 08:32 A.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
Actually limedrops since I'm married to someone of hispanic heritage and I do try to keep up locally with what the news is reported from La Prensa, as well as contact with that community, I feel fairly secure given the vote from the Lucas County Democratic Hispanic/Latino Caucus was unanimous as well as their having enough confidence in her to elect her as secretary that they have faith in her abilities. Since she will have to run for election very soon, we'll see how well she does as far as overall support from that district.
To make the suggestion that perhaps I don't know many hispanics is a way for you to not admit that you were wrong about the community response to Taylor. Infact I'd ask you have you heard any hispanic go on record against her? I haven't. I haven't heard it either in public or in private. Does that mean that everyone who is hispanic supports her? Of course not, hispanics do have minds of their own just like every other group, my husband is is a conservative, but there has been no "outcry" or even a minor rumbling against her. Even he supports Taylor being placed on City Council, not just because she is hispanic but because he feels she might have some important contributions to make, especially when it comes to helping the City retain some of our local college graduates.
Look, I know you don't like Carty and I also know that Taylor is considered a "B" Teamer but to imply that the hispanic community would not support her shows you don't know much about her or her family's record of political activity/support in this area. The Balderas family has a long record of community action as well as involvement in the democratic party.
I can't explain why KMH was the only one that voters decided to not return, perhaps it was because the media highlighted her ethic lapses more than they did both Betty and Bob's. But I do not believe it had anything to do with her being black. If there were some hidden agenda locally against blacks, Phil Copeland would not have been the top vote getter.
As to your White makes right comment? Nice try at being inflammatory, however most of the race issues involved in recent and current politics are in the minds of those looking to cause more division rather than being based on reality.
posted by psyche777 at 10:20 A.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
limedrops911 said "Toledo Alliance of Black School Educators?? African American Parents Association?? Tell me, jr, do you feel that these two groups adequately represent the ideals and the hopes of the black community in Toledo? "
Actually, YES. What is wrong with either organization, limedrops, other than the fact that they speak and act passionately about THEIR OWN community?
I'm White. When I speak and discuss issues pertaining to folks that look like me, I don't necessarily feel obligated to include the rest of the universe. And I do not feel "bad" about it either. Neither should Blacks, Latinos.
It's SELF-INTEREST, and when it is community-based (and not individual based), it CAN be healthy.
posted by MrsPhoenix at 01:04 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
limedrops911 said:
"Perhaps you too feel that 'they' got the dogcatcher position and ought to be real glad of that?"
Did I say that? Don't even attempt to put words in my mouth and claim to know what I'm thinking. You can put that crap on your own website, pal. You only talked about the council and mayor positions. 13 people. The city is more than just those 13 people. The Toledo Public School board is damn important to the city.
limedrops911 said:
"Apparently, it is not OK for a black woman to attempt to skirt the law and, as a result, the voters 'punished' her for legal shenanigans? Am I reading this correctly?"
"Yet it appears from your comment that if it is a white lady and a white man 'skirting the law,' then they can be duly re-elected regardless of their previous specious actions. Did I understand this correctly? Is that why Betty Shultz was able to win? Is that why Bob McCloskey finished second highest?"
You're not understanding anything. Are you even commenting in the correct topic? My comment said all that? What comment? Where? Show me, limedrops911, where I or anyone said it was okay for a white man or a white woman to skirt the law.
Have you been paying attention to what Dave Schulz has been doing? How many times have posters here railed against McCloskey and Betty Shultz for violating the city charter? A lot.
limedrops911, You're writing fiction. You're making baseless accusations, and you better start pointing out facts to back up your libelous-like statements. I don't know what your racist agenda is, but it won't be tolerated here. You're treading on thin ice.
posted by jr at 01:08 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
limedrops911, You're writing fiction. You're making baseless accusations, and you better start pointing out facts to back up your libelous-like statements. I don't know what your racist agenda is, but it won't be tolerated here. You're treading on thin ice
It's called internet trolling, that's what his agenda is. He's very, very good at it. Look at how many times he's proudly posted things like "It doesn't take much to rattle your chain, eh?" and "My, my, I guess it's easy to upset you, isn't it?" after posters have gotten into arguments with him.
He passes his time trying to think of ways to piss people off on boards like this one. Like I said, he's very, very good at it.
posted by yepyep at 02:40 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
Apparently, it is not OK for a black woman to attempt to skirt the law and, as a result, the voters 'punished' her for legal shenanigans?
Wait a minute, why'd you have to use the word "skirt"? Is it because you're talking about women? Your sexism is showing...
posted by thenick at 04:28 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
yepyep has is right. Look at the pattern. Limey doesn't do it all the time to all the people. Only once in a while, and just enough to get under the skin of a few.
A few of Limey's comments got up my nose as well, then I read yepyep's post and the light went on. Don't let this idiot rent space in your head!
My thanks to yepyep. The guy is good, and I wouldn't have spotted it on my own.
posted by madjack at 04:36 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
Acknowledgment is a sign of credibility, good or bad.
I say let Limedrops babble, seeing he's the source of the Dubya tangents. Besides, it's nice to watch someone so desperate for his own site traffic.
Should have taken a note or two from Psychomantic Robert.
It is nice to know who you're dealing with on this site, and some people make it easer than others to figure out.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 07:10 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
Sigh...Okay as I make a mental note to check profiles from now on. I had no idea limedrops was the same person as liberal_dem on the blogosphere.
I often thought about changing mine to Lisa Renee since when I first signed up here I was using psyche777 and not my real name.
Sorry rambling...Back on topic, did anyone listen to Bob Frantz? When he wasn't performing the "Bob and Bob" show he brought up the Toledo Blade article.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 07:43 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
Shame I missed it, would have been amusing to hear Bob's take on that "crony hiring" issue.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 07:57 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
He pretty much stated what most of us have here, with the additional statement that he believes to create quotas is an insult to those who are minorities. That it creates the question is that person really the best or are they there because they are a minority.
Needless to say he didn't agree with the Toledo Blade article.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 08:19 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
Too bad WSPD doesn't podcast...it would be a welcome addition to their new webdesign...hint...hint...especially for a format like Bob's show.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 08:20 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
You're not understanding anything. Are you even commenting in the correct topic? My comment said all that? What comment? Where? Show me, limedrops911, where I or anyone said it was okay for a white man or a white woman to skirt the law.
By 'nuking herself' I assumed that you meant that she caused her own demise. Is this what you were saying? She was defeated because of that parking-ticket caper and its subsequent circumstances?
It appears that perhaps I extended your remark, Yes, McConnell-Hancock nuked herself to its logical conclusion: a person who plays shoddy with the law does not get re-elected.
Of course, she did not. Yet the two white law- dodgers, Shultz and McCloskey won handily. How do you explain this outcome? Seems to me that folks are less tolerant of black folks who play loose with the law than white folks.
If this is what you meant, why didn't the $100,000 Pilkington bribe and the $2,000 Tom Noe-Shultz-Bush caper cause these two to lose their re-election bids? Further, both of them, as Dave Schulz has admirably demonstrated, were seeking their 4th term on council, clearly snubbing the 3-term limit. Each had two clouds over their heads yet were handily re-elected.
You're making baseless accusations, and you better start pointing out facts to back up your libelous-like statements. I don't know what your racist agenda is, but it won't be tolerated here. You're treading on thin ice.
No I'm not.
Further, I did not make libelous-like statements. Any two-bit lawyer would object to your accusation of libel on my part. I suggest that you re-read my comments more closely with an open mind and note that the tone of the comment is not accusation but, rather, inquisitory.
Finally, I do not have a racist agenda. What I pride myself in doing is asking folks to examine the words that they choose to use when describing other races and other cultures. Sometimes people make careless statements regarding race, ethnicity, and culture which may be interpreted by others as insulting.
I would like you to point out examples of this so-called racist agenda to me. It would be helpful to understand why you suspect such in me.
posted by limedrops911 at 09:04 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
Perhaps you may mean the tone to sound "inquisitory" but it doesn't come out that way at times. Your comment to me suggesting I did not know many hispanics as one example.
I've been told sometimes I come across as condescending, which is not what I intend, so it's something I have to watch. So perhaps you might want to consider your tone as well. In the interest of discussion.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 09:21 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 24, 2006 #
I think if there is a Black History month, then there should also be a Hispanic History month, an Asian History month, etc., etc. I am weary of the entire black race card being played all the time. I wonder if the Blacks are the true minority? I bet the Hispanics, Asians are more the minority, yet I never have heard or seen them carry on. I would like to meet one living person, who was actually injured/affected by slavery. Yes, it was horrible, but blacks owned slaves as well. And I fail to see why people who were never a part of that now are expected to apologise for something they had no part in. I also think affirmative action is a racial discrimination thing, it is singling out one race for preferential treatment That is racist. I am just stunned that so many people still judge people by the color of their skin. It should be the best person for the job, not the color of their skin. I do not think Carty is appointing people based upon race at all. Although, I do think that Ford did, a lot.
posted by starling02 at 12:48 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 25, 2006 #
Yes, it was horrible, but blacks owned slaves as well.
"They did it too!"
posted by limedrops911 at 08:23 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 25, 2006 #
limedrops911, you said Blacks and/or Hispanics should be happy they got the dogcatcher position. You said that. Not me and as far as I can tell, nobody else said that.
limedrops911, you dismissed the two Black orgs mentioned above. You did. Not me and as far as I can tell, nobody else did.
limedrops911, you said it was okay for a white politician to skirt the law and remain in office. You said that. Not me and as far as I can tell, nobody else said that.
But limedrops911, you claim me or others made those statements. Where? You post offensive statements that were supposedly said by others. And now you want us to believe your offensive statements were inquisitory?
How in the hell should I know why voters elected Betty and Bob again? We tried here to point out their violations many times. They weren't getting support from here.
psyche777 called limedrops911's comments inflammatory. At least. limedrops911 offended and insulted Blacks, Hispanics, school board members in any school district, and dogcatchers. limedrops911 did that. Not me and as far as I can tell, nobody else did.
Being a school board member may be a tougher and more important job than being on city council.
posted by jr at 09:35 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 25, 2006 #
Limey has been banned from Bob Frantz's first message board more than once. He kept showing up under different names. Best thing to do is to ignore his every word.
posted by SherryET at 02:17 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 25, 2006 #
limedrops911, you said Blacks and/or Hispanics should be happy they got the dogcatcher position. You said that. Not me and as far as I can tell, nobody else said that.
Apparently you did not understand that it was a hypothetical. You were all happy about Torres being elected to school board as if that should satisfy the Hispanic community which lost a council seat. I suggested that 'they' ought to be happy with a dogcatcher position. Do you get the irony of my suggestion? Perhaps it was way too subtle.
limedrops911, you dismissed the two Black orgs mentioned above. You did. Not me and as far as I can tell, nobody else did.
Dismissed? Not exactly. The point of my inquiry was that these two organizations and their endorsements do not necessarily reflect the intentions of the black community as a whole. Which black organizations endorsed Karyn McConnell-Hancock? Knowing that information might give us a better handle on how the black community viewed her.
limedrops911, you said it was okay for a white politician to skirt the law and remain in office. You said that. Not me and as far as I can tell, nobody else said that.
No I didn't. I suggested that a white politician apparently had a better chance of being re-elected than a black if there was a cloud of legality hanging over their heads. I offered the examples of 3 politicians up for re-election, each having had outstanding legal problems before the election. Of these, the two white candidates won but the black one lost. It appears, from these three examples, that voters are more tolerant of dubious white politians than black ones.
psyche777 called limedrops911's comments inflammatory. At least. limedrops911 offended and insulted Blacks, Hispanics, school board members in any school district, and dogcatchers. limedrops911 did that. Not me and as far as I can tell, nobody else did.
Whoa! The only folks whom I 'insulted,' if you need to press 'insults,' are the misinformed Toledo voters. Apparently my writing style seems, to some readers, to suggest ideas or feelings which I am not trying to convey. Perhaps I should be more direct, more overt so that folks do not misinterpret my message.
posted by limedrops911 at 03:36 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 25, 2006 #
Good advice, SherryET.
posted by jr at 04:33 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 25, 2006 #
JR:
I you really want to give this guy the thing he can't stand, ignore him. He wants attention, and in his case being smacked with a rolled up newspaper is better than no attention at all.
posted by madjack at 10:50 A.M. EST on Thu Jan 26, 2006 #
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