Why won't Phillip agree to a debate? Why does he not return phone calls? What is he afraid of? That people might realize he is not Bill. That people will realize he has no experience, no record to run on, no vision for Lucas County.
Kudos to the four for agreeing to this debate and I hope Ben and Tim will have more debates throughout the County like both want. Maybe Phillip will find time to show up and talk to real people.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 05:41 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 07, 2006 #
Thanks for the update, Fuselighter.
Go Lisa! Live blogging rocks.
posted by historymike at 06:08 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 07, 2006 #
I hope Phil decides to attend as well, and if Ben and Tim do other forums that creates additional chances for people to hear them.
After being behind my keyboard for so many years and then actually getting out there and hearing people in person? In person is the way to go whenever it's an option. That way you are hearing it directly rather than someone else's opinion of what happened. Or since WSPD is going to carry it live that gives people a chance to actually hear the whole debate.
Thanks Mike, thankfully I type fast and I'll have my laptop back so that I can be wireless. Though there are still advantages to the traditional taping, especially in making sure you got a quote exactly right.
I'm looking forward to hearing what all of the candidates have to say.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 06:22 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 07, 2006 #
Yeah, you can still tape and do a longer piece later, but the live updates gives a real-time presence that will be cool.
Be sure to promote it and get some traffic out of it.
Remember folks, Lisa Renee will do live updates at Glass City Jungle on April 10.
That is - if Blogger is not being a pile of crap that day, like it is today.
posted by historymike at 06:29 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 07, 2006 #
lmao Mike, it's in April and yes I will be sure to make sure everyone knows I'm going to be blogging it as well as WSPD carrying it live. Or, maybe I should hire you as my promoter...
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 06:59 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 07, 2006 #
This debate should be on TV. If Fox Toledo 36 is sponsoring it, why don't they air it in its entirity?
posted by junta330 at 01:47 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
It's an axiom of politics that the surefire winner declines debates since those events can only get him in trouble -- i.e. all risk for no gain. I can only interpret Copeland's actions in this fashion. His vote-catching in Toledo also speaks significantly about expectations; as the leading Dem he's simply going to gather the most Dem votes in this primary, period. This is Toledo, after all; all you need after your name is a "(D.)" marking, and you're assured of winning most any position in an election. Among other competing Dems, all you need is a political surname.
Of course, Copeland could simply be delayed for one reason or another. He might be buried in spreadsheets, perhaps figuring out how to avoid paying his taxes this year. So as a busy man, he might have to take a few days before coming up for air and acknowledging the event.
Konop might give Copeland a run for his money. Konop after all is a Dem, and has a political surname. However, that surname is not as well known as "Copeland". Additionally, Konop just isn't Black, and has no hope of capturing the inner-ward vote blocs that Copeland captures routinely. If Konop can bring up salient points in a debate which Copeland can't answer, then he has a better shot with outlier areas (as Szollosi did) ... but that only suggests (in political-survival mode) that Copeland shouldn't attend the debates.
In American politics, most debates are dog and pony shows between equals, like the outstanding examples of modern Presidential debates. These shows are designed to keep the real issues off the public mind, and to keep the public voting for either one or the other White male elite pro-corporate status-quo keeper.
The remaining debates of the population are merely PR actions by the weak candidates, as they attempt (largely without success) to force the leading candidates to talk about any issues at all. The upcoming debates seem mostly in the latter category, but that may change if Copeland decides to participate. IF. Myself, I'm not betting on it.
posted by GuestZero at 02:23 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
While I agree the surefire winner declines debates does happen, I have to say I was surprised to read you felt he was the number one candidate. Granted he has the name but I think with the numbers of candidates running that this primary will create more interest and hopefully a larger turnout. A larger turnout would not be a benefit to a candidate who has not participated in the process.
Personally on the Democratic side I saw Phil in the number three slot. I think it all boils down to who can get the most support from both Toledo and the outlying areas. Even if Phil can win the inner-city wards, that doesn't necessitate a win. The most recent mayoral election demonstrates that.
posted by psyche777 at 09:18 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
Fox Toledo 36 has agreed to broadcast at least one hour live. They had not yet committed at press time.
posted by Fuselighter at 09:25 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
I agree that Phillip Copeland has to be considered the front runner at this point BUT, turnout in primary elections tend to be very low and since there is not much of a contest for either the democratic nomination for governor or U.S. Senate, it would defy all logic for there to be a greater than normal turnout. In a three person race, it won't take that many votes to win and I would expect that Tim would do well among the suburban voters, based on his experience and rather impressive list of endorsements and co-chairs. I have friends in both the A and B teams of the democratic party and a lot of the people that I've talked to above all else want to win this seat back for the democrats in November. They are scared that Copeland will not be able to do that because of his inexperience and baggage and would just get destroyed in the suburbs. They don't know what to make of Ben yet since this is first time on the ballot in Lucas County. So rirght now, a lot of them are planning on voting for Tim Wagener. With the suburbs behind Tim, if Tim can hold his own in Toledo, not win Toledo but do decent, he could pull out a win.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 11:09 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
The population of Lucas County is about 455K. Toledo accounts for 304K to 313K of that. Copeland was one of the 2 top winners in the 2005 city council race (for some reason, I can't find a sufficient summary here).
Since Toledo holds a full 2/3rds of the county's electorate, AND Copeland scored very strongly with that sector, AND he's not running against the other council front-runners for the commissioner seat, THEN I find myself considering Copeland to be the Democratic front-runner. Konop's appeal with Lucas County voters is largely unknown, although his political surname and Centrist-Democrat posture are possible positives with the "rural" (i.e. non-Toledoan) electorate. Wagener is mayor of Maumee, but that still doesn't compare to the electoral powerhouse of Toledo's population.
If Copeland represents a bad brand of inner-city politician that county + Toledo 'burb voters really don't want, then yes, Copeland is in trouble. The 2005 election demographic maps were very revealing about Toledo socio-economics. Copeland and Ford (both Black men) utterly dominated the inner city, and their opponents (primarily White men, although Copeland had to compete against a mix of genders and races) dominated the ring of Toledo 'burbs. I commented to an associate then about these maps, noting that it was a stereotypical picture of White (or Wealth) Flight. If the outlier county is yet another step in this Flight picture, then Copeland will lose to one of the "Flighters" -- Wagener or Konop.
Note that I consider Mr Konop to be a Flighter even though he lives and works in downtown Toledo. The White/Wealth Flight method eventually produces a new bud in the wasted (read: LOOTED) city core, and wealthier types gentrify the area quickly. He's still participating in the Flight plan.
posted by GuestZero at 01:21 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
Lisa,
I have updated my outlook reminder to make sure I tune in. I was thinking of going there myself but realized that 40 wpm would not allow me to keep up. LOL
posted by KraZyKat at 02:04 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
KK, you should still go, my being there shouldn't make any other blogger not live blog it. Sides depending on how the format ends up you could be missing an opportunity to ask questions.
I look at this as a situation where the more the better.
As to the Phil being number one issue, I still disagree. I realize he was the top vote getter for City Council but that doesn't directly translate into a Commissioner spot. He hasn't taken a strong leadership position, he could have very easily pushed to have been named Council President based on those votes and demonstrated he was ready and wanted responsibility. I also think you guys are under-estimating Ben. While we run in different circles, most everyone I've talked to is talking about him. The next top mentioned person I've heard about is George Sarantou. Even some of the people I talk to in other parts of Ohio have good things to say about Ben and have heard about him running. While that doesn't mean he's a shoe in, it does mean his name is out there. I have not heard one person mention Phil, nor Tim, and very limited comments about Pam.
posted by psyche777 at 02:21 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
Council at-large results:
November with about 40% voter turnout.
Phil Copeland ... 38,044 ... 11%
Bob McCloskey ... 36,421 ... 10%
Mark Sobczak ... 34,895 ... 10%
George Sarantou ... 32,961 ... 9%
Betty Shultz ... 32,044 ... 9%
Frank Szollosi ... 30,253 ... 9%
September primary results with a 22% voter turnout:
Bob McCloskey ... 20083 ... 11.43%
Phil Copeland ... 18454 ... 10.5%
Betty Shultz ... 17580 ... 10%
Frank Szollosi ... 16279 ... 9.26%
George Sarantou ... 15351 ... 8.74%
Mark Sobczak ... 13225 ... 7.53%
Karen Shanahan ... 12660 ... 7.2%
Karyn M. Hancock ... 12597 ... 7.17%
Bob Vasquez ... 12283 ... 6.99%
Dave Schulz ... 9943 ... 5.66%
Terry Shankland ... 6531 ... 3.72%
Ernie Berry ... 5373 .. 3.06%
Mitch Balonek ... 4928 ... 2.8%
Jason M. Schreiner ... 4338 ... 2.47%
Thomas Meinecke ... 3428 ... 1.95%
Robert L. Tilton ... 2678 ... 1.52%
Some other stat info from last September's Toledo primary:
"22% of 189,454 registered Toledo voters = 41,680 Toledoans voted [in September's primary]. According to the 2000 census, Toledo has 231,488 people age 18 and over. Now maybe all wouldn't be eligible to vote for whatever reason, I don't know. Let's say 220,000 people in Toledo are eligible to vote. That means the real voter turnout was at most 19%."
Anyone know what the expected turnout is for the May primary for the entire county? Does May average less than September?
Looking at only Toledo, I doubt 22% of Toledoans turn out for the May primary. If Copeland is only concerned about the Toledo vote, will 15,000 Toledo votes be enough for him to win? I'd say yes.
I predict around 30,000 Toledoans will vote in the May primary, which may still be a high number, since that's around a 16% voter turnout. And then what, about 20,000 of those Toledoans will be voting for the Democrats, right? I don't think Copeland will get 15,000 Toledo votes, but he'll probably get at least half of the 20K.
If only 30,000 Toledoans vote, and Toledo contains approx 68% of the county's population, and if the voter turnout for the rest of the county is similar to Toledo's, then that means around 44,000 people in Lucas County will vote in May.
posted by jr at 04:28 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
Good information JR. I'm curious though whether primary turnout is higher in the outer precincts of toledo and the suburbs as compared to the inner city. I wouldn't be surprised if turn-out is significantly higher in the outer-belt for primary elections, so to speak.
posted by junta330 at 04:38 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
I don't think 15,000 is enough for him to win if you look at the 2000 primaries as one example.
http://www.co.lucas.oh.us/boe/abstracts/Primary%202000/Ward%20Summary.pdf
Last page....
posted by psyche777 at 05:20 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
JR - definitely some good information and junta330 bring up a very valid point...turnout in the inner city is much lower in a primary than a general election and that is the base of Copeland.
The other thing that is worth noting is that a person's popularity in an at-large race is much different than a head to head race. Many people go in to vote for city council with the intent of definitely voting for certain people and not voting for others. When people have six votes, after they vote for their definites, they then typically vote for people of their party affiliation or a name they recognize. Copeland benefited from both plus the unprecedented turnout effort in the African American wards by Jack Ford's campaign. That will not happen in the primary. And when people only have one vote, as opposed to six, they tend to vote differently. Finally, the people that vote in a primary tend to be slightly more informed than the general election meaning that people are going to know that this is Phillip and not Bill and are probably not going to appreciate Phillip's tax problems and not returning any phone calls about debating.
I could vote in November for either Ben or Tim. I was originally for Ben but since he STILL hasn't answered my question, I'm with Tim. If Phillip Copeland is the nominee, I'll vote for the republican because I just think that Phillip has no business running for commissioner after only one year on city council and he has failed to articulate any reason why democrats should vote for him (Ben doesn't have any experience either but at least he has ideas!)
posted by moderatedemocrat at 05:26 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
psyche777 - 2000 was a PRESIDENTIAL primary...turnout is always higher in presidential elections than any other (primary and general). That is why democrats seem to win the county races in presidential years and republicans in even years without president (Thurber and Kaczala). In fact, you could probably ask Rob Ludeman, Richard Knepper and probably a few others and they would tell you that if they ran in non-presidential election, they would have won their races. That is why most of the democrats I know are scared to death of Copeland as the nominee because they see no way he can win in November. They believe Tim is the best chance to win the seat for the democrats with Ben being a true wild card. Ben could win or he could lose but they just don't know enough about him.
So if you want a better predictor of turnout, look at the 2002 democratic primary.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 05:29 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
I know it doesn't apply to Lucas County, but in last September's primary, Perrysburg was also selecting two finalists for its November mayoral election. And Perrysburg's voter turnout was about 21%, which was slightly less than Toledo's turnout.
I'm sure pockets exist in Toledo and in Lucas County where the voter turnout pops up a little higher, but I'm guessing the apathy turnout is fairly uniform across all communities.
Looking back at the 2004 LCC race between Gerken and Barlos, I think the only chance Wagener has of winning this May's primary is for the rest of Lucas County to turn out in record numbers for a May election.
From the Toledo Journal article about the 2004 LCC race:
"In numbers usually given only to popular black candidates, voters in Toledo’s six mostly African American wards gave Mr. Gerken 83 percent of the vote in the Nov. 2 election. For Ms. Skeldon Wozniak, the outcome was even more remarkable – 89 percent of vote in wards 4, 6, 8, 10, 13 and 14. As expected, the two Democrats lost to their opponents in Sylvania, Maumee, Ottawa Hills and other suburban areas, but overwhelming black support combined with record black turnout, along with smaller margins of victory in Toledo’s mostly white wards, assured their victories."
"Mr. Gerken also lost big to Mr. Barlos in the mostly white, more affluent suburban areas, winning in only six of 16 voting districts outside Toledo. But he won 15 of 18 other city wards on smaller margins, then rode to victory on the strength of the African American vote."
If it was just Copeland vs Wagener, then I'd say forget it. Copeland wins easily. Having the third candidate in the mix in Konop makes the May election less predictable, especially with Konop being highly visible with his billboard and Blade website ads and his public appearances compared to a non-existent Copeland who is probably waiting until the end of April to show up.
My predictions:
Toledo vote
1. Copeland
2. Konop
3. Wagener
Outside of Toledo
1. Wagener
2. Konop
3. Copeland
Final tally
1. Copeland
2. Konop
3. Wagener
On the Republican side, Sarantou is more likely to be defeated than Copeland. The number of Republicans outside of Toledo probably equals the number in Toledo. Sarantou voted for that damn strict smoking ban in the summer of 2003, which Maumee, Sylvania, and Oregon were probably thankful for, since they got more business from Toledoans.
According to this Sylvania school info, Pam Haynam "is the owner of a small technology consulting firm, and has over twenty-five years experience in Toledo's Fortune 500 companies."
Well, well, well. How many times have we heard politicians say that attracting technology jobs to our area is a high priority? I'm not sure what Haynam's biz is about, but she must know what it's like to run a small biz. Sarantou's vote for a strict smoking ban was anti-small business.
Sarantou is close to Toledo's finances and budget, right? Since he voted for the strict ban, he should answer the question as to how much money did Toledo lose from the strict ban? Obviously, if he had voted against it, nothing would have changed except he would have shown he had some guts to not simply follow the rest of the crowd on council. Was he afraid of a backlash from the Blade? Yes, Sarantou should state why he voted for the strict smoking ban, and knowing what he knows now, would he still vote for a strict ban?
Toledo lately has ranked 195th and 196th in economic development.
According to a 1998-2003 study:
"Toledo's home county, Lucas, is the only one of Ohio's major urban counties to lose private-sector professional, scientific, and technical services jobs over the latest five-year period."
Let's face it, Toledo sunk the county in that study.
Can't entirely blame Sarantou for these bleak numbers, but he's part of the establishment that obviously hasn't done much to improve the area. So why promote Sarantou to a LCC? Just because Democrats re-elect and promote slugs, does that mean Republicans should do the same thing? Restrict Sarantou to only Toledo in order to minimalize the damage he could do. Republicans should vote for new blood and new ideas.
Sarantou, like Copeland, defrauded the voters last fall by running for re-election of City Council only to announce three months later his intentions to seek a different office. I don't know about Copeland, but Sarantou admitted to thinking about seeking a different office before last November's council election. Why didn't he tell the public this? And why didn't George resign from City Council to prove he was serious about being a LCC? Why didn't the local Republican party ask Sarantou to resign from council?
posted by jr at 05:58 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
2002 wasn't a contested race for the Democrats, and Sandy still got something like 15,777 running unopposed, which is why I used 2000 because it was contested.
posted by psyche777 at 06:18 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
http://www.co.lucas.oh.us/boe/abstracts/Primary%202002/Precinct%20Detail.pdf
Sorry, 15,773...
posted by psyche777 at 06:20 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
The democrats didn't have contested primaries for county commissioner in 2004 either. Gerken and Wozniak ran unopposed.
JR - good information but again, record African American turnout. Guaranteed that won't happen in May. There is no school levy in Toledo on the ballot which in itself drives up turnout, no real contested race for governor and senate so very limited incentive for people to go out and vote. Turnout will be low and even lower in inner city.
Based on past democratic primary results in non-presidential years, a little more than 1/3 of primary voters are from suburbs.
My prediction for suburbs based on strong support Maumee Mayor Tim Wagener has from elected officials and anti-Copeland/anti-Toledo attitude:
Wagener - 52 percent
Konop - 27 percent
Copeland - 21 percent
My predication for Toledo based on turnout in 02 democratic primary election and the fact that you are hard pressed to find any Democratic insider supporting Konop:
Copeland - 43 percent
Wagener - 34 percent
Konop - 21 percent
I think Wagener edges out Copeland by about 1,000 votes.
I also think that the only way Copeland can win is because it is a three way race. Konop and Wagener appeal to many of the same people.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 06:32 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
Lucas county stats for 2000 primary:
287,461 registered voters, 90,889 voted, 31.6% turnout.
Stats for 2002 primary:
22,149 Democrats, 13,352 Republicans, 40,080 total voted, 278,270 total registered to vote.
Stats for 2004 primary:
290,315 registered voters, 53,760 voted, 18.52%
From the state of Ohio
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/ElectionsVoter/Results2000.aspx
posted by psyche777 at 06:36 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
What about the two zoo levies on the May ballot? Those are county-wide votes, right? Will that cause a few more people than normal to vote?
posted by jr at 06:36 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
I think it might cause a few more to vote but some of those will just vote issues only because they won't want to declare a party affiliation. The rest are likely to be split between democrats and republicans fairly equally and I would guess a majority of those that vote solely because of the zoo levy are likely to be from the suburbs or areas where Carty did pretty well (suburb lite).
I don't think a zoo levy has the same appeal to get people to vote like school levies. Not sure but it just seems that school levies can bring people out not normally inclined to vote.
I think the numbers for the 02 primary (similar dynamic - uncontested races at top of dem ticket) is pretty accurate.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 06:47 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
Interesting Akron Beacon Journal story from last fall found in Google's cache:
"[In Nov 2004], Ohio was the ultimate battleground state. Groups large and small with an interest in the presidential election descended on the state to help register and turn out voters in near-record numbers. But that effort - 70 percent of registered voters cast ballots on Election Day 2004 - hasn't translated into local races across the state."
"In Cleveland, just 16 percent of voters cast ballots in the nonpartisan primary [Oct 4, 2005]. Four years ago, about 40 percent voted in the mayoral primary."
"It's the same story around Ohio:"
"_ In Dayton, about 62 percent of the registered voters turned out for the presidential election in November. The May 18 primary election, which featured the mayoral race, attracted 14 percent of the voters."
"_ Turnout in Franklin County was 14 percent for a May primary featuring city council and school board races. Sixty-three percent of voters went to the polls in November."
"_ In Lucas County, 74 percent of registered voters turned out for last year's presidential election. In the Sept. 13 mayoral primary that included Toledo's two most recent mayors, just 22 percent voted. In one precinct, 11 percent voted."
posted by jr at 06:47 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
JR - excellent link. The way Copeland wins is with a very good African-American turnout. That happens with an operation like Jack Ford had (and there is no way that Copeland has developed that), significant union involvement on the ground on election day (not a chance in hell that will happen for a dem primary when most unions haven't even endorsed yet and Copeland is one of their own), or outside organizers like Americans Coming Together (again, won't happen). Turnout will be low..the most motivated will vote. Those people will be the most educated and informed and will like Ben's ideas and Tim's experience.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 06:52 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
moderatedemocrat, about your question in the other thread on McCloskey and ethics that you want Ben to answer, naturally Frank would say something because Ludeman gave McCloskey Frank's economic development chair.
If Sarantou and Copeland get to remain on council, so should McCloskey. McCloskey's problems were known before the November election, and the voters still made McCloskey the number two vote-getter. The voters didn't know about Sarantou's and Copeland's plans to seek a different office so soon after the election.
If McCloskey is found guilty, he'll have to resign from council. But I don't think McCloskey should step down now just because vocal opponents dislike him. And that's what this is about: politics as usual.
If McCloskey is forced to resign before a trial, what about his supporters? What about their voice and their choice last November? What about making every vote count?
Push to change the city charter so that when someone is indicted, the politician has to resign immediately. But does the person get to return to office if later he or she is found not guilty? Change the charter so it clearly states that Betty and Bob cannot do what they have done. And we should change the city charter so that the likes of Sarantou and Copeland also have to resign.
posted by jr at 07:34 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
Don't you mean that FirstEnergy will be sponsoring the debate? ;-)
posted by anonymouscoward at 07:52 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
JR - I agree with many of the points you have made...my whole point during all of this is that democrats, and I am one, are being hypocrical on ethics issues. They openly criticize Thurber who hasn't been indicted of anything but don't mention a peep about McCloskey.
And while it might have been legal, I think Copeland and Sarantau acted unethically by concealing plans to run for a higher office when they were just elected a few months ago. At to Betty and Bob, I agree with David Shultz...they had no business running and I hope that the Charter is changed to prevent people from openly violating term limits like both of them did.
Is it any wonder that more people are fleeing to the suburbs and Toledo ranks so poor in job growth. With these clowns in office...I'm not shocked at all.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 08:00 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
George claimed he stated he wanted to run for higher office, Tim isn't going to finish his elected term of office. I'm not sure if Pam will I haven't checked when her term ends. Realistically the only one who is not going to break a committment to the voters is Ben.
I'd also point out on this thread that it was not over a month ago that you posted the question on Ben's blog, it was less than three weeks ago if you posted the comment the day Ben wrote it which was February 14th. I've already stated personally I think basing your decision on who to support based on a blog response isn't something I would personally do. Especially since Ben apologized and answered you but if that's how you decide? That is up to you. It's pretty much a given not all of us are going to agree on who we support or have even made a firm decision at this point. At least we care enough to discuss it so that no matter whether we agree or disagree should be something to remember.
I'd also ask since you stated you had a response to Tim what is his position on this or is it not something he's going to make public like Ben did.
posted by psyche777 at 09:07 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 08, 2006 #
I agree with Psyche. Moderatedemocrat is basing his/her opinion of Ben Konop entirely on a lack of blog response (although I contend that ModDem is Wagener or someone very close to his campaign). If I recall correctly, which I do, ModDem's comment was created days after Ben's original post. Blogger does not time stamp comments as efficiently as Toledo Talk. It is therefore reasonable to assume that Ben did not see the comment until you pointed it out to him. The fact that you judge Ben on his lack of response over his policies or beliefs makes me believe that ModDem is nothing more than a muckraker, or a troll, and that his only purpose here is to promote Wagener. I've said from day 1 that I support Konop, so don't call me out on it. Konop is the only candidate that has offered any new policy whatsoever. I don't know what the others believe in, Republican or Democrat alike. Perhaps the reason The Blade covers Konop more than the others is that Konop is actually saying something, offering something new. Ever think of that? Frankly, he's the only one out there on the trail at this point, and I think it's because he honestly believes in what he is doing.
posted by junta330 at 01:17 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
Junta330 or should I say Ben Konop or someone who is obviously working on his campaign...probably won of his groupies in the bowling picture on his website. Frankly, Ben isn't the only one on the trail. Tim was out in Oregon on Monday, reading his response was in Sylvania last night but the key thing is...the other candidates have jobs, are elected officials, and are married with kids. They don't have the luxury of coming from a wealthy family where they can afford to essentially campaign full-time and Ben doesn't have a wife or kids and teaching part-time at Toledo doesn't cut it.
You want me to judge him on his policies. the Ethics Pledge was nothing more than an opportunity to settle a grudge against Maggie Thurber. Nothing more. Student Village by Toledo...propose something that a County Commissioner can do. Cool Counties...I'll give him that one. Those are the only ideas I've seen from Ben.
You're for Ben, I'm for Tim....you are obviously working on his cammpaign...glad you are involved in the process and a democrat. Hopefully, you'll be equally passionate after the primary for whomever wins if its not Ben.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 11:10 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
Why is it so hard for you to accept mod-dem that someone could actually like Ben's ideas and not be working on his campaign?
I'm certainly not a part of his campaign, and I do like some of his ideas, which are more than the other candidates have put out so far. The ethics pledge was more than just related to Maggie Thurber. I'd suggest you read it again. Especially this part:
I will serve the full duration of the term for the office of which I am elected to.
I will be a full-time public servant and will accept no outside income while in office.
http://benkonop.blogspot.com/2006/02/ethics-pledge-earlier-today-i-unveiled.html
posted by psyche777 at 11:47 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
Psyche777...I accept that you like Ben and like his ideas and aren't working on his campaign. If you read some of the posts by junta330 which he has a knack for inflaming a lot of people on here, he went to great lengths to research the business of Tim Wagener and then spread a false rumor about it. He also promoted his bowling tour on here. That's far different than you and your comments. We don't agree on this race and that's fine but I respect your opinions and have liked reading your posts.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 12:12 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
I'm sorry if you thought me asking about Wagener's store was meant to inflame people. It was not. Wagener himself admitted that he has been asked that before, so it's not like I made it up. I will reiterate again that I do not work for Konop. I'm sorry if my question upset you.
posted by junta330 at 12:52 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
Junta and I don't agree on everything either, I just don't agree the way to handle these things is to retailiate in kind. But? That again is an individual decision.
I respect your opinion, with the exception of some of what you've posted recently, which I'm sure you can understand.
Hopefully there will be more focus on the issues once the candidates get out there and we start hearing what each one has as far as plans and goals. That I look forward to discussing with everyone.
I see alot of hatred and anger that people direct at each other, what I saw happen off of this board in the Hackett/Brown situation to name just one isn't the way I think it should be. But? I'm just one voice in the wilderness saying "can't we all just try to critique the message not the messenger". The same can be said for our County. Some of the division and the personal insults I don't feel are necessary or productive. So most times I just stay out of it with an occasional post like what I'm doing right now. So I hope you understand that's where this is coming from and not directed at just you personally mod-dem.
posted by psyche777 at 12:57 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
I've got a question. We're all obviously pissed. Really pissed. We take it out on each other. So - maybe it's because we are upset over things we feel powerless over (and in many ways ARE)? so we just strike out at whatever's handy.
I never used to feel this mad....like someone's slowly sapping the joy out of life....
posted by katie82640 at 05:24 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
I think you might be on to something Katie. We're all pissed. We feel powerless. I know I joined this forum to have my voice heard. Indeed, many of the more outspoken members disagree with me because I have some off the wall opinions (at least compared to party-line opinions). I am a registered democrat, but I have a very conservative side as well. For me, it always depends on the issue. I don't go down party lines, nor do I vote down party lines.
Why do I like Ben Konop? I like Ben for the reason that he does not have any Toledo political experience. I like him because he hasn't been corrupted by Toledo/Lucas County politics. I like him because he's very bright, and he's the only one out there offering new ideas. Tim Wagener can get up there and say that experience matters, and I don't doubt his ability, he just hasn't offered anything new. This area is in a rut, and we need new ideas to get out of it. Forgive me if I get passionate about the LCC race, but I don't want the same old Toledo/Lucas County politics to prevail.
posted by junta330 at 10:50 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
I'd agree with some of what you wrote about Ben, having had the chance to meet him and listen to his ideas; he is very bright. I also think he has the energy, the desire and the new ideas to move forward rather than the typical let's discuss something to death for years before we do anything mentality that this area falls into all to often.
You should never apologize for being passionate junta, that shows you really care. It's some of the other stuff that gets out of hand and that's not just you alone doing that.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 11:10 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
According to Ben's website, he went to school in Georgia, then went to England, then University of Michigan and then in 2000 went to Washington DC. Then he returned to Ohio, his words, not mine, to run for congress out of Allen County. One year ago, Ben Konop did NOT live in Lucas County. The last time County Commissioners were up for election, he was voting for Allen County Commissioners. He hasn't lived in Lucas County for a significant period of time this century. He defines carpet bagger.
I have been told by a very reliable source that he would have run again for congress out of Allen County but he wasn't invited back to teach law at Ohio Northern. So he needed a job and wanted to be in politics so he moved back to Lucas County to try and avenge his aunt's defeat in 2002.
That's why I'm angry. I'm for Tim Wagener in the Democratic Primary. Experience does matter. Ben has ideas but none of which are realistic or within the scope of the job of county commissioner. Maybe if he had a little experience, he'd know what a commmissioner does.
There is absolutely no way that a carpet bagger who's never been elected to anything can win a general election against either of the republicans. If democrats want to win, Tim Wagener is the best choice.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 11:17 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
Not to mention, Konop had the balls to take on Oxley. I don't care what you say about him moving to Toledo after he lost, he took on Oxley. That takes major balls. Oxley was one of the largest fundraisers in congress, and Konop took him on because he wanted that jackass to retire. Oxley took contributions from Enron, Haliburton, and the others to finance his campaign. Oxley is a puppet for money and Ben wanted to stop that.
Ben joined this race initially because he wanted to stop Thurber, because she is likely very corrupt as well. She was very likely a Noe conduit. Indeed, it may have been his presence in the race that forced her to not seek reelection because she knew he would expose every detail about her conduit activities. Ben wants to clean up Lucas County and build the economy at the same time. I'm sorry, but the man has balls. You gotta love it. It's a shame that a good man like Tim Wagener chose to run against him (even though he owned a porn store). Phil's a joke and so is Sarantou and the others. This race should be between Konop and Wagener. They're the two best candidates. In my opinion, Konop wins on ideas.
posted by junta330 at 11:35 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
So Tim responded to you last night and said he didn't own a porn store but you continue to perpetuate that lie. Did they teach that to you in law school? Even after your proven wrong, keep lieing. Isn't there something called slander? And if you think Maggie didn't run because of Ben, you are even more of an idiot than I thought.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 11:39 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
Let's see mod-dem, Ben is thirty years old. He lived here from when he was born until he was 22 (in college your permanent residence is your parents house), and then Ann Arbor til 25 (close enough). He lived in Washington for two years to follow and then Allen county for one. You're an effing idiot. So 3 years out of thirty, I'll give you six at most out of lucas county. You're a jackass spinner. You don't know what you're talking about.
posted by junta330 at 11:39 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
Tim never denied that he sold porn.
posted by junta330 at 11:40 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
I love how you try to call me out, and you fail by the way, and haven't offered one of Tim's ideas. All I want are Tim's ideas. Spinner.
posted by junta330 at 11:41 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
I understand what's your permanent address but maintaing a permanent address and physically living in an area are two differen things jackass. He said he moved to DC in 2000. Lived in Allen County until mid 2005. Fuzzy math you are using to try and make a point.
I don't count going to school in Georgia as living in Lucas County. So what you are saying is until he moved back to Lucas County sometime in 2005, wheh he was let go at Ohio Northern, the only time he lived in Lucas County is when he lived with his parents. Nice! How many years has he paid property taxes? Ever sent his kids to school? When's the last time he actually went to the polls in Lucas County to vote? Ann Arbor..close enough...so is Allen County so we might as well count that.
And here's Tim's response to you last night. Most OBJECTIVE people will recognize what he said and that you are nothing more than a Konop groupie.
First, let me say whoever moderate democrat is he or she seems very enlightened most of the time! Junta, I am the real Tim Wagener! For the past few months I've read with great interest all the comments and opinions expressed by all of you. While I've been tempted to add my own comments numerous times, I think that politicians too often comment and don't spend enough time listening!
I'm very thankful for the debate that has been scheduled on April 10. I'm really glad that one of my opponents, Ben Konop, has agreed to participate and has also joined me in calling for a series of forums and debates across the county. It is my hope that Phillip Copeland will also agree to the debates because I think these debates and forums are a great opportunity for voters to actually meet the candidates wanting to serve and ask some tough questions. I am really looking forward to meeting many of you in the coming months, especially if you organize the debate of bloggers that some of you were talking about yesterday.
I will be commenting on many of the colorful things I have been reading, in the coming weeks. Just a few tonight as I returned from the Sylvania Dem meeting.
I've met Ben a few times, we've talked on the phone once or twice. Known his Aunt Sandy for years. Phillip has always been pleasent, for that matter so has George. Phillips Uncle Bill Copeland was a longtime supporter of mine and I of him for many years. No kinder gentleman did I ever know. May he RIP. To the best of my recolection, I have yet to meet Pam. I have had political opponents my entire political life, had disagreements, but as I found out during my early years in politics, the longer you serve the public the less you can accomplish for the people if you trash the people you need to work with to get things done. Golden rule of politics, the enemy you may think you have today may be the friend you'll need tommorow to get something done for the good of your community.
For all those who want to stir up bad feelings between me and my fellow dems, Im afraid you'll be disapointed. I haven't known either one of them long enough to have built up animosity toward them much less hate them.
McCloskey? I've met Mr. McCloskey several times and have never had a real conversation with him. As an elected official at minimum, if he did what is alledged it was foolish, your vote can never be precieved as being for sale even if you think it's for a good cause and at worst (the courts will decide this)criminal and he should resign. Before the court rules, he is the only one who can make that decission.
The ethics pledge... well it's too late to start on that, I've got to get up early tommorow to kick off my EXPERIENCE MATTERS TOUR!
Lastly,
The laughable "porno store" allegation was thrown at me before, during my attempt to shut down XO for zoning violations. ( We were successful) At the age of 23 (1980)I opened Total Video on Glanzman Rd. next to Grandmas Lovin' Oven. It was the first or second full service video store in all of NW Ohio. in 1983 we had to find larger quarters and moved into the old Boogie Records on Heatherdowns a few years later. In 1983 opened a second store in Waterville on 3rd St. that my wife Karen managed. Due to parking problems, I moved the Heatherdowns Store to Maumee at Parkway Plaza. In 1995 I started in the Insurance business was immediatly succesful and began liqidating the stores. They were family video stores that I was and still am extreemly proud of. We were famous, due to my love of classics, for the best selection of older hard to find movies. All anyone has to do is ask my hundreds of old customers about the quality of my stores. Karen and I raised our kids in those stores! It's been ten years and in many ways I miss that business, especially the people and the many employees that were so loyal, many worked for me for years!
Talk to you all soon! Tim
posted by moderatedemocrat at 11:47 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
All I want is was Ben fired from Ohio Northern. What did his students say about him? That he was pretty worthless, that's what I heard. Horrible. Not experienced. Ask them.
When's the last time he went to the polls to actually vote in Lucas County?
Name me one ORIGINAL idea, not stolen, that can actually be implemented.
Anyone can come up with ideas...realistic ideas are two different things.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 11:49 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
And I think most people would think you are the idiot...he did not actually live in Lucas County...go to the polls to the vote, regularly go the grocery store, pay bills, pay taxes, etc in Lucas County from the time he was 18 until 28-29.
That is a carpet bagger.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 11:51 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
What about you perpetuating the lie that Ben was fired at Ohio Northern? If that were the case, UTLaw wouldn't have hired him. The difference between you and me is that you're making stuff up. I have said that I don't know whether Tim sold or rented porn, but there is a rumor that he did. I was merely trying to get the truth behind the rumor. In your attempt to cover the truth, you have created a BS rumor about Ben concerning his tenure at Ohio Northern. Ben is well respected at the UTLaw by the faculty and the students. You are a true spinner.
posted by junta330 at 11:55 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
I would venture to guess that he voted absentee here while he was in college. I know I did.
posted by junta330 at 11:56 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
I see that the fraction of the National Democratic Party has managed to filter it's way down to the local levels!
posted by KraZyKat at 11:57 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
(even though he owned a porn store) - your words, not mine. That is perpetuating a lie. Period no matter how you look at it. I heard from a student at Ohio Northern that the students that had him from a class hated him...he wasn't prepared to teach the class and he wasn't asked back. Have someone that took him at Ohio Northern come forward and say differently.
Glad he voted absentee...better than not voting at all but my point remains, he wasn't physically in Lucas County for over 1/3 of his life and he's only 30!
posted by moderatedemocrat at 11:59 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 09, 2006 #
That said, I can assure you that I am no idiot. I'm a muckraker, and I forced Tim to speak out last night, but not an idiot. I know exactly what I'm doing. And it's working. Those that know me respect and revere me. I have a way with people, and I have a way to expose the truth. People on here may not like me all the time, but I think I provide a service that is desparately lacking. I can read people like the back of my hand, spinner.
posted by junta330 at 12:04 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
With people like you supporting Ben, I feel pretty confident that Ben will go down in flames. People revere you...that's hilarious. By your own admission, you've only voted for one winner, the TPS levy...I think your track record of backing losers will continue in this race. And how can you call yourself a democrat and have never voted for Marcy Kaptur.
What I think you're doing is trasferring your behavior on to me. You accused me of being a "muckraker" then admitted you were actually a "muckraker." You accused me of working for Tim when you are actually working for Tim.
I agree that you are providing a service desperately needed....people need to see that Ben Konop is an opportunistic carpet bagger who was canned from Ohio Northern because he lacked the experience to teach law students. Thanks for accomplishing that. Nice job!
posted by moderatedemocrat at 12:09 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
actually working for Ben is what I meant to say
posted by moderatedemocrat at 12:09 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
There will always be students that don't like their professors.
posted by junta330 at 12:09 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
But all of them?? And so many that the administration didn't invite him back. That's unusual. It takes a lot for someone to get relieved of their duties at a college
posted by moderatedemocrat at 12:11 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
The thing is, Mod-dem, that we would probably get along really well if we met eachother. The fact the you quoted me from another thread some time ago about marcy kaptur tells me that you are very concerned about what I bring to the table. It is true, I never vote for Marcy Kaptur, but I said just above that I never vote on party lines. I don't like Marcy. She's not my cup of tea, so to speak (she says a lot of dumb things, and a lot of things that I simply don't agree with). Regardless, you are obviously a spinner for Wagener. I will say right now, that if Wagener wins the primary, I will support him, because I think he is second best for the job. But, in my opinion, Ben is the best. If Copeland wins, I will vote Sarantou.
posted by junta330 at 12:18 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
Ok, you said one student, that by no means implies all of them. Again, UTLaw wouldn't have hired him if all his students hated him.
posted by junta330 at 12:21 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
Fair enough about getting along well...I'm willing to call a truce...you think Ben's the best...I think Tim's the best...we both agree that Copeland isn't qualified. I'll support Ben if he wins, you'll support Tim if he wins.
No sense in continuing this and ultimately hurting both of the candidates we want to win.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 12:25 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
And trust me, people revere me in real life.
posted by junta330 at 12:25 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
Agreed.
posted by junta330 at 12:25 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
But as an amendment to our agreement, I offer that if you stop saying that Ben was fired from Ohio Northern, I will not say that that Wagener owned a porn store. I think that's fair. And neither of us will bad mouth the other from this point on. I think that's fair, let me know if you agree.
posted by junta330 at 12:43 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
Junta330 and Moderatedemocrat....Please dont stop. I so enjoy a good debate (eerrr...fight).
Maybe once the new arena is built Toledo Talk can host a LCFWD (Lucas County Federation of Wrestling Democratics) smack down and you two can be the main attraction. I am sure psyche777 will gladly ref the battle if we asked her nicely.
I would surely buy a ticket!
Seriously, You 2 need to take a perc and chill out for a few. (Not advocating Drug Abuse! LOL)
posted by KraZyKat at 12:53 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
I'm sorry we have decided to stop entertaining you KraZyKat, but as I noted on another thread, I'm willing to push for a debate at UTLaw (and I have some weight there, so I'm sure it can be done with the proper sponsorship). I'm willing to go so far as to call the news channles and see who will sponsor it and air it live. It might be a home court advantage for Ben, but I say the more debates the better. Also, percs are highly addictive, and I don't recommend anyone taking a perc unless they have to.
posted by junta330 at 01:03 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
MemyselfandI said:
"Ben is bad for Democrats and would be bad for Lucas County. I hope it's Tim Wagener and George Sarantou on the November ballot."
So Konop is bad, but Sarantou is good. That makes no sense to me. Sarantou is a bottom feeder like Copeland. No way should Sarantou be elected LCC. If Sarantou was LCC, that would be horrible for the county because he would be teaming with fellow smoking ban zealot Pete Gerken.
I don't trust anyone who voted for that 2003 anti-freedom, anti-small business legislation that had to be ammended by the voters in 2004. So avoid like the plague the following people:
Louis Escobar - didn't seek re-election in 2005
Peter Gerken - now Lucas County commissioner
George Sarantou - wants to be Lucas County commissioner
Betty Shultz - term limit violator
Francis J. Szollosi
Wilma D. Brown
Rob Ludeman
Robert McCloskey - indicted
Michael Ashford
Ellen M. Grachek
Wade Kapszukiewicz - now Lucas County treasurer
Karyn McConnell - absent for the 2003 vote, but is on record saying she would have voted for the ban. Voters booted her out of office last November.
What in the hell is Sarantou's qualifications for being LCC? Toledo City Council? That's a disqualification. Seriously Republicans, what makes Sarantou more qualified than Haynam?
posted by jr at 02:10 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
You know, this is a whole bunch of crap and I'm getting tired of it.
1. Enough video stores sell or rent porn that Tim's possible selling of porn is a non-issue. Pornography is perfectly legal in the United States (local efforts to push "obscenity" charges nonwithstanding).
2. I'm coming to dislike Mr Konop for his positions, but MD's accusations are over the line. JDs and PhDs are treated like temp workers more and more these days. Tiny, on-and-off employment under pathetic contracts is now the norm, and even "real" professors are finding themselves in short-term contracts that challenge their loyalty. If Mr Konop was not invited back, it's (A) hardly a black mark as far as his teaching "career" goes, and (B) hardly affects his ability to be a county commissioner. Furthermore, Mr Konop allegedly has another contract position at UT.
3. MD, now you're calling Mr Konop a "carpetbagger", which is particularly amusing since he's in his HOMETOWN. Working and living elsewhere in the country for about 10 years is an utterly normal pursuit for a young professional, especially one interested in national politics and academics. Plainly put, if you expect to be an academic, you can't expect to go from your local high school to your local university, and then obtain a position at that university, PERIOD. Academics these days are finding that they cannot even limit their job searches to domestic institutions.
Junta and MD, the two of you need to chill out and deal with facts, not strained insinuations. Leave your obvious biases at home. Bickering like that looks like the bad old days ... AND the current bad days of highly immature Democrat leadership in Toledo and Lucas County.
posted by GuestZero at 02:21 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
I agree with JR, I think Pam is highly qualified for the position. She's just being ignored because she has no name recognition.
posted by junta330 at 03:05 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
I've already shared my views of Ben.
I was hoping he'd bring his ventriloquilist's doll Brian_S with him bowling. Guess he's not into physical props.
Tim has several endorsements from mayors of three county communities. For me, that shows these communities are going to be heard, finally.
Pete Gerkin and Tina Wozniak have proven to me that City Council has no place making decisions for the county. For just that reason alone Phil and George should be disregarded.
It would be nice to have someone NOT from a Toledo Democratic Faction on the commission, someone that represents a voice from the neighbors we Toledoans rely upon and someone that touts true Democratic Ideals and dosen't have "A" team on his resume.
On a side note, the Tigers are playing the Dodgers in town at 1 pm today. Spring Training with some Mud Hens!
posted by BrianInFlorida at 06:54 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
That said, I can assure you that I am no idiot. I'm a muckraker, and I forced Tim to speak out last night, but not an idiot. I know exactly what I'm doing. And it's working. Those that know me respect and revere me. I have a way with people, and I have a way to expose the truth. People on here may not like me all the time, but I think I provide a service that is desparately lacking. I can read people like the back of my hand, spinner.
Oh my God! This twerp thinks people "revere" him. That is precious!
posted by MemyselfandI at 07:35 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
The thing is, Mod-dem, that we would probably get along really well if we met eachother.
Moderate Dem,
Not only would you get along really well, you'd "revere" him!
posted by MemyselfandI at 07:37 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
Nope, KK, no way no how not even if I was paid would I referee that battle.
I would however offer to live blog it.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 08:21 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
Junta wrote: "I am a registered democrat, but I have a very conservative side as well. For me, it always depends on the issue. I don't go down party lines, nor do I vote down party lines".
I think most of us reside in the moderate area in the middle. The media doesn't want us to think we're the majority (those that can still talk to each other) so they run all the inflammatory crap and rhetoric they can. You know the stuff I mean - like none of us are aware that there are lunatics on both sides of the political spectrum.
posted by katie82640 at 11:46 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
Trust me MMI, if you met me you'd want my autograph.
posted by junta330 at 02:51 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
You do realize junta that now I have to meet you because you've even made me curious.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 08:25 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 10, 2006 #
I'm sorry to disappoint you psyche, but I'm not the least bit famous. Although, I'm fairly certain I've met you before (and trust me we have met), you ruined my game a bit. That was merely a ploy to piss off the outspoken, Rush Limba wanna-be conservatives on TT like MMI, Guestzero, Napoleon, and the rest. It's my way of sticking to the political minorities in this town (and they are minorities for a reason, for the same reason they are more outspoken than the rest of us). They simply do not speak for the majority, and their outspokenness is evidence of that. Why do I go head to head with them? Because someone needs to. Certainly Psyche, you are more passive than I am about it, but it needs to be done, and we both try to accomplish it in our own way.
Mod_dem and I called a truce because we realized we are both on the same side. We both support the two best candidates for the job, and there is no question about the fact that Konop and Wagener are the two best candidates. I support Konop, and Mod_dem supports Wagener. Indeed, it is my belief that Wagener and Konop would get along and work well together if politics were so simple. It's unfortunate that two good smart people have to go head to head, when indeed Lucas County would be better off if both of them were commish's at the same time. This is the dilemma. We're pitting two very qualified candidates against eachother in the primary, and Copeland might win as a result. There is no doubt that Copeland is incompetent. In other words, it's like saying that half of lucas county is smart, and the other half is dumb, and those that are smart split the vote between Konop and Wagener, while all the dumbsh!ts vote Copeland. That means 50% Copeland, and 25% each for Wagener and Konop. Therefore Copeland wins. Konop and Wagener need to work out a deal. One of them needs to drop out. The question is who.
posted by junta330 at 12:31 A.M. EST on Sat Mar 11, 2006 #
Junta, you denounce the political minorities in one paragraph, then try to get around your own minority position in the next. Contradiction, much?
If Konop and Wagener form some sort of alliance, then once again the Democrat Electability Scam will happen. Instead of doing what's right in their own eyes, they will drop philosophies out of consideration just to form 1 candidate who is certain to be elected.
Copeland is an unfortunate electoral majority bloc. Konop and Wagener (as well as yourself) should actually try to convince the Copeland voters that Copeland largely serves himself, not any electorate backing.
posted by GuestZero at 03:24 P.M. EST on Sat Mar 11, 2006 #
GZ, convincing Copeland supporters of what you suggest would be like trying to convince you to vote for Konop. Our efforts would be futile.
posted by junta330 at 04:39 P.M. EST on Sat Mar 11, 2006 #
What's futile here is your understanding of the sellout mentality of the Democratic Party. If you had any repsect for the electorate, hence Democracy, you'd try to convince people to vote for you and/or your cause.
Dismissing Toledo's electorate (arguably they ARE rather brainless in their choices) is about as bad as Toledo politicians dismissing the rural electorate. Try to be part of the solution, instead of firmly part of the problem.
Modern Democracy is essentially an unartful exercise of getting 50.1% of the vote and then lording it over the remaining 49.9%. This is simply shameful and we need to return to a more principled Democracy. If we don't, some guy like Copeland is going to be making terrible decisions for all Lucas County residents, on the basis of what's allegedly pleasing to a mass of urban poor and urban elite. Just imagine the damage that could happen if a guy like, say, Szollosi tries to impose his anti-smoking Fascism upon the entire county.
posted by GuestZero at 12:27 A.M. EST on Sun Mar 12, 2006 #
GZ, I agree with you in principle, but I don't think it's very practical. In an ideal world, or an ideal democracy, we would all have an informed public that would pick the best candidate. We're all in agreement here that Copeland is incompetent. But the bottom line is that the public is not informed, and the public is not reading this website. Toledo Talk is comprised of people who care, and less than 700 people in this community are members. Although Toledo Talk is growing daily, I think it's fair to say that voters on the whole are less informed than they are more informed. As much as I would like to see this battle between Wagener and Konop, I cannot help but notice that Copeland will come out on top as a result of an uninformed electorate, and the end result should be putting the best person in the position for the job. I like Konop because he brings an agenda and new ideas to the table, ModDem and others like Wagener because Maumee is a relatively successful suburb (although I would question how much Wagener had to do with that).
The thing is, we're arguing about a primary. A vote to determine who represents the party. Primaries themselves are undemocratic if you think about it. You accuse me of a sellout mentallity, when all I want is the best democratic candidate to come forward and face the best republican candidate. It's not sellout. It's a primary. The fact is they should all go head to head in the general election. That would be true democracy. In the meantime, the democrats need to figure out who is their best candidate, and I hope to God it's not Copeland. So forgive me for being a sellout, but democracy is hurt by primaries. And somehow, deepdown, I think you agree.
posted by junta330 at 01:27 A.M. EST on Sun Mar 12, 2006 #
We may as well go ahead and shut the power down on Phil's campaign.
Federal officials are investigating whether a labor union led by Toledo City Councilman Phil Copeland, a Democrat running for Lucas County commissioner, allowed members to spend union funds for personal entertainment.
The U.S. Department of Labor probe into Laborers Local 500 bears the marks of a criminal investigation, not a routine audit.
Ho boy, what to do now, Councilman?
posted by BrianInFlorida at 07:07 A.M. EST on Sun Mar 12, 2006 #
So forgive me for being a sellout, but democracy is hurt by primaries.
Yes. You're so right! Nothing is more dangerous to democracy than more choices!
Geez! How big is the bus that takes you to Ottawa Hills Mental Midget Club for the Lucky Sperm Society?
posted by MemyselfandI at 09:53 A.M. EST on Sun Mar 12, 2006 #
jr (or anyone else out there in the know) Do you know how Tim Wagener was connected to the Maumee Indoor not showing Twist of Faith? I seem to recall a lot of controversy about the Maumee Indoor's decision not to allow Twist to play there.
posted by corky at 10:38 A.M. EST on Sun Mar 12, 2006 #
Obviously you can't read MMI. You're one of those take stuff out of context trolls. Ladies and gentlemen, once again MMI is trolling. In fact, I haven't seen MMI make a non-trolling comment in some time.
posted by junta330 at 12:19 P.M. EST on Sun Mar 12, 2006 #
Actually, we're NOT a democracy, we're supposed to be a democratic REPUBLIC, which was to protect the rights of the minority. Democracy is mob rule, or tyranny by the majority. They don't teach that these days in the schools, though , I would imagine.
posted by Foolkiller at 12:19 P.M. EST on Sun Mar 12, 2006 #
This is exactly the sum of my argument, Junta, when I said the Dems choose electability. In emphasizing the practical, they surrender the principle.
You're right about the primaries. I can't do anything about the system of primaries ... heck, I don't even know where to start to get rid of them. This system rather DOES stink of limiting people's choices ... well, in one sense, that's exactly the design, to limit the real election to TWO choices.
During the 2004 Bush/Kerry fiasco, a college professor actually had the gall to pen an article arguing that an election with more than 2 candidates is NOT democracy. He supported this view by noting the minimum majority for winning a 2-candidate election is a simple majority (50%+1), but with 3 or more candidates, it's quite possible to have a winner with less than that. I call this "less than a simple majority" a "superminority". For example, Clinton was placed into office in 1992 as a superminority winner, with about 40% of the popular vote.
Obviously, from that article, the Democrat anti-Nader sentiment was out in force in 2004, but the anti-superminority sentiment remains there, lurking in the background. This sentiment is probably what will come out in force should anyone seriously question the primary system in Lucas County.
(Another aspect of anti-superminority-ism is revealed in how people usually approach dismissal of third parties in America. Has anyone ever heard the complaint that America should not have a system like Italy does? Such complaints are anti-superminority-ism.)
As for Democracy ... yes, I know that. At the level of detail, democratic methods are used to resolve elections. I don't want an actual big-D Democracy, since that would mean the majority can always abuse the minority. Tyranny of the minority (i.e. autocracy), or tyranny of the majority (i.e. democracy) ... neither are welcome in America as far as I'm concerned.
posted by GuestZero at 03:02 P.M. EST on Sun Mar 12, 2006 #
On Maumee and the Twist of Faith decision:
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050629/NEWS18/506290407/-1/NEWS
There's more at the link but the basics:
The film's director and others say the decision raises questions of censorship.
Not so, say officials at the theater and the city of Maumee, which owns the building. They said yesterday it was a financial decision and had nothing to do with the film, which is about the sex-abuse scandal in the Catholic church.
The documentary, chronicling the lawsuit of Toledo firefighter Tony Comes against the Toledo Catholic Diocese for years of alleged rape and molestation by a local priest, premiered to an invitation-only crowd at the Maumee theater on Monday. It aired on HBO last night.
Maumee Mayor Tim Wagener said. "The charge that we were trying to protect any entity - be it the Church, St. Joe's - is laughable," said the mayor who, like Mr. Jezak, is Catholic and attends St. Joseph's. "Because if that were the case, we would never have allowed HBO to do a world premier of said documentary at the Indoor in the first place."
posted by psyche777 at 03:54 P.M. EST on Sun Mar 12, 2006 #
Democracy , as the old saying goes, is 3 wolves and a sheep discussing what's for dinner. In a democratic republic, the scenario is the same, but the sheep packs a .44 magnum. 8^)
posted by Foolkiller at 10:25 P.M. EST on Sun Mar 12, 2006 #
Ladies and gentlemen, once again MMI is trolling. In fact, I haven't seen MMI make a non-trolling comment in some time.
I normally a live and let live kind of girl/guy. But the things that fly off your keyboard and onto this message board are so outrageously stupid, I can't resist taking shots at you.
At least guys like Coward and Guest Zero, while being outrageous and over the top, are not stupid. I'll argue with them. You are just fun to make fun of.
It makes me laugh to see some kid, still shitting yellow in his designer skivvies that were purchased by mommy and daddy, telling us all how the world really works.
I must admit, Junta, I do enjoy this board more with you on it.
I believe that the youth of the world have much to offer in new ideas and new ways of thinking. You're just not one of them.
posted by MemyselfandI at 10:27 P.M. EST on Sun Mar 12, 2006 #
So MMI, you admit that you're a troll. Under the definition of trolling as this site takes it: Follow the golden rule, treat others' opinions with the same respect that you would like to be afforded, do you or do you not openly admit your a troll? I admit that I have been guilty of it. Indeed, my trolling probably resulted in your trolling. I just want to see if you are mature enough to admit your faults. If you've noticed, lately I have been more tame, and have tried not to be so inflamatory. Part of my return to TT was a promise to JR that I would no longer troll. Indeed, in my latest tiff with Mod_Dem, we worked it out. I can assure you, I am not a hard headed person, nor do I wish harm to any person on this site. But when you sit there and accuse me of acting like I am in high school, I think you should take a long look in the mirror. Further, you think I'm stupid, and you think I'm younger than I really am. I can assure you, stupid people don't do what I do, nor do they do it as well as I do. I have vowed that I will no longer do anything that resembles trolling, because I respect this site and think it serves a good purpose. I think your statement sums it up: At least guys like Coward and Guest Zero, while being outrageous and over the top, are not stupid. I'll argue with them. You are just fun to make fun of. Really, who needs to grow up? I hope you don't have children, you make a terrible role model.
posted by junta330 at 11:35 P.M. EST on Sun Mar 12, 2006 #
MemyselfandI said: "At least guys like Coward and Guest Zero, while being outrageous and over the top, are not stupid. I'll argue with them."
You smooth-talkin' rascal! Kiss me, you mad fool! :^)
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