nor will the gas rates, the electric rates...
But we keep putting the same folks back in office year in and year out, so that must be how we want it...
posted by billy at 05:51 A.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
Rust Belt cities like Toledo began to lose population in the 1960s, and governments began to raise taxes in response to balance budgets.
Paddington is right that government programs are very slow to downsize.
Toledo is an example of a city at the crossroads - if we keep doing what we have been doing, we will continue to watch citizens leave for places where the quality of life is better.
High taxes, however, are just one of the components in the complicated equation. Add subpar public schools, high crime rates, and poor employment opportunities, for starters.
Agreed, Billy, that re-electing the same sorts of people who guided us into this mess will only get the same results, but the problems require people with long-term vision who can make difficult decisions with that vision in mind.
Career politicians, unfortunately, tend to think about as far as the next electoral cycle, or in the interests of those who provided the campaign cash needed to get into office.
A couple of thoughts:
1. We elect only people who pledge to take a hiatus from their careers in order to help fix these long-festering problems;
2. We elect only independent candidates without the party baggage;
3. We become more involved as citizens and demand results from our government;
4. (most important) We form or revitalize volunteer organizations to perform duties in which the government is falling behind. This can be block watches, cleanup crews, school assistants, and any other area that people can pitch in; ideally this would be done in coordination with local employers to create incentives to reward civic volunteerism.
posted by historymike at 08:20 A.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
I blame unions through and through.
posted by fequalsma73 at 09:00 A.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
Why would anyone want to put their business, especially any type of manufacturing here, when you have to pay the electric rates we do?
The fact that some have, and others have expandned here speaks volumes for the quality of the workforce.
posted by JeepMaker at 09:31 A.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
Not to mention that you have to pay a mandatory living wage and have to deal with union boycotting if you decide not to be a union manufacturer.
posted by MikeyA at 09:58 A.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
If you don't want to pay a decent wage who wants you?
posted by JeepMaker at 10:50 A.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
Ohio's got high taxes, but not a whole lot to show for itself in terms of public services.
Massachusetts and Minnesota both have high taxes (though not as high as Ohio), and have the top public schools in the country. Ohio's public schools are about average by most measures. The Southern states have mediocre schools, but since the taxes are lower more working class parents are able to send their kids to private schools.
New Jersey has high taxes, but has very impressive infrastructure. The NJ Turnpike is 12-14 lanes near NYC with dedicated lanes for trucks. The Ohio Turnpike has been struggling just to upgrade to 6 lanes. NJ also has the best public transportation system of any state. Northern NJ is mostly suburban, but you can get around pretty easily on their trains/light-rail if you don't have a car. Ohio's public transportation is a joke.
posted by paddington at 10:58 A.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
I diagree that the unions are to blame for the growth problems in this area.The unions only comprise about 12% of the work force and are losing more members daily.You can't tell me that the other 88% don't have something to do with our situation.If unions did not exist we would all be working for minimum wage with no restrictions on the number of hours we would be forced to work.The Labor Unions that are being condemmed on this thread are for the most part responsible for the standard of living most workers enjoy today.We have gotten spoiled in this country and have forgotten about what earlier workers sacrificed to get the benefits we have today.
posted by buckeye277 at 10:59 A.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
TAXES!!! My taxes are far too high as per say what is offerred in my area...
UNION STATES -vs- RIGHT TO WORK STATES...as much as I don't want to lean toward RIGHT TO WORK STATES...they seem to be doing well economically as compared to the GREAT LAKES REGION...one example...TOYOTA...
posted by MARIELORA at 11:08 A.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
"If you don't want to pay a decent wage who wants you?"
Sez the guy bitchin about how much it's gonna cost to fix the water damaged MERCEDES!!
posted by billy at 11:47 A.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
"I diagree that the unions are to blame for the growth problems in this area.The unions only comprise about 12% of the work force and are losing more members daily"
Ah - but how much $$ is funnelled fm those unions into 1 government center? Hell, Sobszak cant even vote on every issue in front of him because of a conflict of interest! Not to a bulldog headed toward the pound!!
"The Labor Unions that are being condemmed on this thread are for the most part responsible for the standard of living most workers enjoy today"
Yet they still bitch about how bad they have it...
posted by billy at 12:04 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
pssssssst, Billy...
Chrysler puts Mercedes performance engines in those Crossfires, just a fyi.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 01:32 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
Blaming the unions may make a few people happy but today unions no longer have the clout they once had in the work place.
The decline in cities like Toledo really lies at the feet of the leadership over the past twenty years.
Toledo was once more than an auto town. We had several fortune five hundred companies that called Toledo home. But the changes in global competition has left towns that refused to see the future high and dry.
Rather than knowing when to hold them and when to fold them Toledo and other cities stayed at the table hoping things would return to the good olde days.
Unions grew out of the old guild societies which were made up of craftmen in different fields. The operative word is craftsmen. Unions still provide craftsmen. The problem is many of the crafts have died out and new skills have come into being. Technology to name one. Until cities like Toledo actively seek industries that depend on new technologies it will continue to become less viable as a place to live and work.
posted by bill at 01:40 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
I agree with Mike's perspective on candidate selection. Independent is the way to go. Too much crap to my left and to my right.
I don't think there's any one thing to blame -unions vs. electric rates - I think it's unions AND electric rates. Not all the unions, but the ones that are so top heavy. The reason for those goings on is a matter for another day.
I think that you have to have one thing to support employers and that is employees.
The next thing you have to have is a workable set of resources. Utilities, resource supply etc.
We can't accomplish either of those two things right now in a major way.
Suppose you are the perfect widget manufacturer. You are a fantastic employer and don't have any problem hiring union labor. And you LOVE your employees. Your business is growing so fast, as are your employees families that you need to develop a whole new facility to handle it.
What would the widget manufacturer consider as they look at Toledo as a potential building site?
Employees
1. Where are your employees' kids going to go to school?
2. What is the personal and property tax obligation that your beloved employees will be faced with?
3. Will your employees be safe from crime?
4. Does the housing market hold up? Families need homes - are the widget manufacturers' employee families going to be in a stable home ownership position?
The other is of course the facility. We have ALOT of real estate they can get for nothing or next to it. They, obviously, get huge tax abatements. There is a great give away in Toledo right now - as far as the facility goes.
What if you use electricity? Even if you get the real estate for free - if you can't afford to actually RUN the widget line, that's going to be a problem.
These are both deal breakers for prospective businesses. A decent employer cannot justify bringing employees into an area when they will face the crime, educational, property value and tax challenges. What kind of quality of life would those employees have?
IMO until the Police Chief, the TALC and the Mayor step up to the plate and begin delivering basic services and management in an acceptable manner, we're going to continue to see a decline in residency as well as business.
These items all dovetail together to create successful cities. They also dovetail together to bring one down.
posted by katie82640 at 02:00 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
Yet they still bitch about how bad they have it...
They call that human nature! It's all relative to where you are in life.If a man makes 30k a year he thinks that the person making 60k is a rich person.The man making 60k thinks that a person making 100k is got it made and whines about not making that himself.Let's face it, we are all whiners.Whinning is not unique to just union employees.Just look at the complaining on this thread and others from non union people.
posted by buckeye277 at 02:35 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
who bitches? Lost here...
posted by katie82640 at 03:53 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
Bob almost hates to post this submission to Toledo Tales, as it is almost too close to the truth to be funny.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 04:03 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
Subcomandante_bob...that is too FUNNY!!! I love the part "remember...Toledo has PRIDE...anyways...that's what the signs SAY"...TOO FUNNY!!!
posted by MARIELORA at 05:17 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
Blaming the unions may make a few people happy but today unions no longer have the clout they once had in the work place.
Bill--I know of several small businesses that are barely making it because of the unions. And when I say barely making it, I mean unable to make payroll. Unions run the businesses in Toledo. Game over! If their workers weren't unionized, the companies could thrive or at least continue to exist. And there is no need for them to unionize because they would get paid what they deserve, not 2 times as much.
posted by fequalsma73 at 05:57 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
What's sad is I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes if I were safe. I don't feel safe in Toledo anymore.
To address the question posed by JeepMaker. The small business owner has no problem paying a decent wage. Hell they're excited too. But when there's a MANDATORY standard on a wage they feel the strain and can no longer offer benefits.
Before leaving for the military (where I never made more than 25k but was happy with the best benefits to offer) I worked three jobs plus that as a student. Two of the jobs I worked were with local small business owners who were more excited to offer me benefits than higher pay. One has since relocated out of the city of Toledo because he was faced with pay higher wages with reduced benefits or relocate. He chose to relocate and his business has since expanded and the same people I worked with still work there today.
posted by MikeyA at 07:04 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
Sorry Katie I forgot to put the ole quotation marks around my post. I was replying to a comment that Bill made about union people bitching.My bad!
posted by buckeye277 at 09:04 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
OMG katie I did it again.The post I was refering to was from billy and not bill. Sorry bill, my bad again!
posted by buckeye277 at 09:17 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 25, 2006 #
If their workers weren't unionized, the companies could thrive or at least continue to exist. And there is no need for them to unionize because they would get paid what they deserve, not 2 times as much.
If they were getting fair wages, insurance, etc, they woulnt have needed to form a union. Remember a union just doesn't come into a company and say "hey we're here" no way, the WORKERS have to vote on it, the WORKERS obviously ASKED for the union. and if the WORKERS decided that they no longer wanted the union, they can VOTE them out just as quickly. So lets not blame the unions for everything.
posted by tm at 07:53 A.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
"and if the WORKERS decided that they no longer wanted the union, they can VOTE them out just as quickly"
RIIIIIIIIIGHT...
posted by billy at 08:06 A.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
RIIIIIIIIIGHT...
Did you try it, Billy?
posted by tm at 08:13 A.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
If the workers ask for the unions, then why do you see unions contacting workers directly as well as broad advertising. I have seen TV ads urging people to unionize. That is the unions going after people, not people asking for unions.
posted by fequalsma73 at 08:43 A.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
Yes unions activly seek out employees, but the employees still have to vote on it. and after the vote, the union has to petition the department of labor to have the elections and negotiations and get everything certified. They DONT just walk in and take over.
But as i've said before there are some decent unions out there and there are some crappy ones. my whole point is, we cant blame the unions for all of this city's financial troubles. Its inconcevable. I used to work for a very profitable small business. Except they only paid me $6.75 an hour. and that was after working there for 9 years and being treated like crap the whole time! So if a union would have walked into that place, i would have signed on very quickly.
posted by tm at 09:05 A.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
I have an interesting comparison. Union cement truck driver starts off making $11 an hour. UAW GM/Jeep, what is it $28 an hour?
posted by tm at 09:07 A.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
I agree we can't blame unions. There are horror stories, just like with everything else. But I think the the idea to allow workers to collectively bargain for fair wages, benefits, etc is an importent one.
The Blade editorial chiefly blames high Ohio taxes, but I don't buy it. Four of the top eighteen cities on the list were from Virginia, which is a lower tax state
posted by pink_slip at 09:11 A.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
HISTORYMIKE-I agree with you regarding our candidates should all be independent. I can see the 2 party system being in the Federal and State levels but not on local levels. The so called Republican party in T town is weak and the Democratic party is always in- fighting with each other.
posted by rooky at 09:49 A.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
Paddie, a careful reading of the article shows little to no hypocrisy in the Blade's expression, and in fact they use the article to take the usual swings at Ohio Republicans, to wit:
article: "As sobering as the news is for Toledo, it's worse in Cincinnati."
Cinci is a Republican stronghold.
article: "While some blame the often harsh northern climate, we blame taxes: Ohio remains a high-tax state, and the resultant job loss, worsened by the steady erosion of manufacturing as an economic base, seems unrelenting."
The Blade is blaming the state of Ohio, currently dominated in state-level politics by Republicans. Toledo's high set of taxes are not mentioned -- since the Blade hardly ever met a proposed Toledo tax it didn't like.
article: "The Toledo Public School system was down 2,700 students for the current school year; some left for charter schools and others moved out of the system altogether. "
Here the Blade isn't saying that per-student costs for the TPS are increasing, and they are pretending that excessive taxation to support the bloated TPS is not an issue.
The Blade then goes on to lavish praise on Californian cities. What political party dominates in those areas? Yep, you guessed it: the Democratic Party.
To top off the Blade's wacky view of the world:
article: "Long population declines in struggling Midwestern cities, including Toledo, will either seal their fate as cities without a future or motivate local leaders to maximize their strengths as unique destinations to live and work. That means reversing the brain drain and embracing high-tech as the future."
Here the Blade is fully endorsing the rape of taxpayer wealth by pouring tax proceeds into the wrong-headed drive for "economic development" (i.e. corporate welfare), with a particular concentration upon the even dumber move into "high-tech". America's high-tech areas have already been established, as anyone with one eye and half a brain can see. Toledo has already poured significant investments into allegedly attracting high-tech businesses, but they just aren't coming, and will never come.
So ... Paddie, I understand your ire as a well-practiced rantblogger myself, but I do think you're wrong about the Blade's viewpoint in this article.
fequalsma73 said: "I know of several small businesses that are barely making it because of the unions. And when I say barely making it, I mean unable to make payroll."
Why? You offered no details. Are these small businesses unionized? If so, then your assertion makes sense ... but then, if unionized labor is 12% (ONE IN EIGHT) of the Toledo workforce, then how are we to make sense of your following statement?:
fequalsma73 said: "Unions run the businesses in Toledo. Game over!"
How does 1/8th of the city workforce manage to control a significant amount of how business is conducted in Toledo? And don't try to run the excuse "threats and boycotts" by us, since any wog looking around Toledo can see that in general, nonunionized businesses have varying but noticable levels of contempt for the unionized ones -- they just don't kowtow.
posted by GuestZero at 11:07 A.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
"Cinci is a Republican stronghold."
No it's not. There's hardly any elected Republicans inside the city of Cincinnati. It's a typical Democrat run craphole.
Cincinnati's suburbs, on the other hand, do vote Republican and are booming.
posted by paddington at 11:48 A.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
I have to agree with GuestZero's comments. The union comments in regards to Toledo is a bit old and irrelevant.
posted by HolyHolyToledo at 12:46 P.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
To Pink_slip who said "Four of the top eighteen cities on the list were from Virginia, which is a lower tax state"
This is true the state tax is lower but also Virginia is a Commonwealth which means everything is virtually taxed because counties and municipalities have a larger say in taxes too. Liquor, gas, and energy are all taxed much higher than here.
As a matter of fact the only thing besides income tax that I noted Virginia had a lower tax than Ohio was cigarettes because Virginia is one of the biggest tobacco growing states. The biggest mistake I made was buying a new car in VA where I paid almost $300 more in tax than if I would have bought it in Ohio but we live and we learn.
posted by MikeyA at 07:17 P.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
does anyone know the income tax rates for our suburban areas? i recently moved to toledo from cincy and went from a 1.5% local income tax rate to a 2.25% rate. may not seem like much until you realize it's a 50% increase. i think we could all agree our public services don't warrant such a high rate.
posted by wholesaler1972 at 08:52 P.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
1.5% in Maumee. I worked in Arrowhead Park.
'Nuff said.
posted by katie82640 at 09:53 P.M. EST on Mon Jun 26, 2006 #
I think Sylvania is around 1.5% also. Sylvania township 0.0%
posted by tm at 08:11 A.M. EST on Tue Jun 27, 2006 #
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