The real question is whether she was wearing a red bra and smuggling Nattie Lite from Michigan or not.
posted by Ampage at 10:03 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Because so many blacks have been taught to fall back on that. If you don't like the way someone looks at you, it's because you're black. Didn't get the job? It's because you're black.
It's the first thing out of their mouths. It's like an auto response.
A couple of summers ago my friend and I were at a park with her grandkids and my son. At the time her granddaughter was maybe 4. She and I were sitting on a bench next to the slide.
Some bigger kids came and one of the bigger kids, I'd guess maybe about seven years old. Shoved the four year old backwards down the slide.
So my friend being a good grandparent. She told the kid to stop it, to leave her little grand daughter alone. I'll admit she barked it out. She was angry. He could have hurt the little girl and he certainly scared the hell out of her and us.
The kid ran off and a few minutes later he was back with his mother and another adult(both had been far enough away they were in no way supervising their kids) who started screaming at her for yelling at her son.
My friend told her what he'd done and she continued to yell that she had no right to talk to her child "like that" she finished it off by calling my friend a "racist bitch". It evidently didn't matter to her that her son had shoved a preschool child backwards down a slide.
It is of some note that her grandchildren are "mixed" but actually appear more black then white.
Not that it mattered.
It wasn't about black or white but about a bigger child bullying a little child.
Trust me, had the kid been white my friend wouldn't have changed her tone or response one bit.
All that woman saw was a white woman who dared to reprimand her child. She didn't care why or what he might have done.
We actually felt a bit threatened as the afternoon went on because this group was having some kind of party and as more of their group showed up we could hear this woman telling them about that "white bitch" yelling at her son. If looks could kill we'd have been dead on the spot, the way they looked at us.
Could you imagine what would have happened had we done something like that? Said loudly enough for people to hear about how that "black bitch" yelled at us?
There are those members of black americans who don't need a "cause" to scream racial prejudice. The very fact that you're white and drawing breath seems to be cause enough for them to invoke it.
posted by OhioKat at 10:41 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Abide by the law, follow Officer Friendly's instructions
Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me.
posted by Offshore at 10:48 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
I struggle with this. First, Ottawa Hills police officers are not exactly cream of the crop. I don't mean to insult these officers, but they don't have the same training and background as a State Highway Patrolman, or even TPD. A rational person needs to keep in mind who what type of officer they may be dealing with when in a small town or village. Depending on your views of civil disobedience, you need to realize that some cops are mentally unstable.
Personally, I always show respect when dealing with an officer, but that is coming from a white man's perspective. Until I have walked in a minority's shoes, I can not judge.
As far as the race card. Yes it is overused. I once was accused of racial discrimination against an employee. It was just an argument- the woman was being a complete jackass, but by the end she turned it into a black vs. white thing. Luckily I had witnesses, otherwise this could have been a big problem for me.
posted by nick44 at 11:40 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Amen to that Ampage!!!
posted by SJD at 12:02 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
First of all, all you saw was a brief encounter of the incident. This took place over the course of an hour or more with 42 minutes of video tape before the officer turned the video camera around. Therefore you don't know what took place before. All you saw was paper (the ticket) flying out of the window and the officer? pulling open the car door and dragging Ms. Brown out of the truck by her hair, and being thrown to the ground and being kneed in the back.
You do not know how much harassment (racial or otherwise)took place before you even got to that point.
I commend the Ottawa Hill city leaders for condemning this officer's treatment of this young lady. This officer was so irate and out of control that he failed to secure his own safety. How could he proceed to drag a young lady out of a truck and leave her father unattended sitting in the back seat of that vehicle. We are all lucky that this situation ended the way that it did. It could have ended much more tragically. This officer was so out of control that he lost all reason and rationallity. He forgot all of the training that he had been given to become an officer of the law. Was it because Ms. Brown was black and the officer was white? I think so.
Ms. Brown just received her BA from Toledo University in May and is attending Nursing School preparing for her Masters Degree. While the news reported that she has a long history of traffic violations, each one of those violations was taken care of in traffic court, there were no warrants against her, she had no criminal history, had never been arrested, was simply a daughter appointed the designated driver for her father and his friends trying to get home after being at a party on a Saturday night.
My question to those of you who see no racism in the part that you did see on television is what could have possibly provoked this officer for his behavior? She was belligerant? She was disrespectful? She was female? She was black? What?
When Supreme Court Justice Alice Robie Resnick was so disrespectful and bellegerant and drunk, that she drove away from the officers who stopped her, she was not dragged from her car by her hair and slammed to the ground and kneed in the back while the officer made up and down movements on her back.
Different strokes for different folks!
posted by purnhrt at 12:56 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Police video at WTOL. Looks a little rough, like a pro wrestling scene. Maybe the officer hates litterbugs.
The WTOL reporter also added:
"And it seems as though that whenever Latoya Brown gets in trouble with the law, it usually involves traffic citations."
"This is her rap sheet from Toledo Municipal Court, and it dates back to 2001. Now some of the charges were dismissed, but most of them resulted in convictions."
The reporter held up a document to the camera, but the exact wording cannot be seen. At least 16 line items of something are listed on the document.
From the news story:
"The officer cited her for speeding and having no car insurance ..."
I wonder how many points she has on her driving record? How many does it take to lose your driver's license? Maybe that's why she tore up her citation because she knew it would put her over the top.
Or maybe she's simply tired of going to court or too busy for court right now, and she thought, "Sorry officer, but I can't accept this ticket at this time. Maybe next year."
Clearly the officer should have been more lenient to someone with a lengthy conviction record.
The Toledo Journal should have the full, unbiased truth in next week's paper.
Also from the WTOL story about the hair-pulling officer:
"[He] resigned September 26th, citing family reasons."
What? I'm surprised he didn't run off to rehab for alcoholism like politicians do.
posted by jr at 01:14 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Okay, that is the first time I have seen the video. After hearing all the hubbub I was expecting a real smack-down. Granted, he should not have done that, but that was nothing. There is no way she was hurt by any of that nonsense, so if they do sue, she better not claim anything more than mental duress.
posted by Ampage at 01:26 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Here's a thought...
Had she not been BREAKING THE LAW, none of this would have happened.
She shouldn't have been giving him an attitude but he should have asked her to step out of the vehicle instead of dragging her out by her arm.
Regardless of race, I think the officer handled the situation very poorly.
posted by Kaci at 02:06 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
kACI
as i said you only saw a minute portion of an hour or more incident!!
AMPAGE
Of course it did not hurt her as she is a strong black buck!!!!!!
posted by purnhrt at 02:53 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Some comments seem to justify what this officer did. She was sassy, full of attitude, didn't follow orders. She needed to be convenced.
That's all sticks and stones. Police don't arrest people for attitude. None of it matters.
She was being dumb, I'm sure. Maybe it's the bend of my mind, but some comments seem to read "well yeah but...." This officer pulled her out of the car and forced her to the ground for littering. There are no "yeah buts...."
posted by Bruno at 03:11 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Bucks are male. She was pretty curvalicious, so I am thinking she is female. Or maybe works at Caesars.
posted by Ampage at 03:14 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
I'm agreeing with Bruno on this. Throwing a ticket to the ground may be rude, but it isn't against the law.
posted by corky at 03:18 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
It IS littering, just like throwing a bra to the ground is.
Why does Toledo not ever impose this law? Where can I find a list if one exists of tickets that have actually been issued for littering? Anybody know?
If they ticketed just the smokers I see on a daily basis being disgusting piglets and throwing out smokes in the street Toledo would have no deficit whatsoever.
posted by Ampage at 03:21 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
I can't believe this is part of the official protocol for removing an uncooperative person from a stopped vehicle?
Don't know as this brings up the race issue - but I'd say this officer ought to review procedure. Sure looks bad - dragging a woman out by her hair. He escalated the situation to violence. And it's his job to avoid that.
posted by katie82640 at 03:42 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Prnhrt wrote: Of course it did not hurt her as she is a strong black buck!!!!!!
Not exactally since that would make her a man.
Maybe he jerked her out of the car because he's an ass, or he doesn't like women or maybe it was because she was breaking the law and being a smart mouth about it.
Personally I couldn't hear what was being said on the tape so who knows how much she was running her mouth.
It doesn't have to be about color, but that seems to be the only excuse black people can offer up for anything.
posted by OhioKat at 03:43 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
It IS littering, just like throwing a bra to the ground is.
Why does Toledo not ever impose this law? Where can I find a list if one exists of tickets that have actually been issued for littering? Anybody know?
If they ticketed just the smokers I see on a daily basis being disgusting piglets and throwing out smokes in the street Toledo would have no deficit whatsoever.
Ouch!!! posted by Ampage at 04:21 P.M. EDT on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
Ok, Ok, we get it. You've brought the same exact thing up on other threads. It'd be a lot simpler if you'd just say, "I rabidly hate all vile smokers, and think they are the lowest ^*&%$%g scum on the face of the earth."
------------------------------------------------
Having dated black babes in the past, I can readily testify that many told me Ottawa Hills cops try to get sex from good-looking black women they pull over, in return for letting them off the hook. . They also like to pull people over that don't live in Ottawa Hills. Having said that, I wasn't there for this incident, and the woman did have an attitude problem, the cop sounds like he may have also.
posted by Darkseid at 04:09 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
This incident took place in Toledo, not Ottawa Hills.
posted by purnhrt at 04:43 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
As the UT professor on the wtol video says, having an attitude is not against the law. The cop's role in the traffic stop was over; he had issued a ticket and had the woman's ID and other traffic stop info on his copy of the ticket.
If he had wanted to cite her for littering, I suppose he could have if he actually saw that it was the woman and not her dad who tossed the torn up ticket out of the window. That is what I understand the law to be: cops can't cite anyone for littering unless they see it happen. Many years ago I asked Tony Pizza if anyone had actually been charged under the littering law. He said he didn't know of any, and explained to me that cops had to see it happen. Being told, or assuming, didn't cut it. Still, I would bet there are plenty of times they see it -- but consider it way down their list of priorities.
Just like they hear the boom boxes blaring and drive right by them.
I don't know if the cop in the Ottawa Hills situation would have treated a white person the same way, but I do think it's valid to raise the question given Ottawa Hills' past performance in race matters.
But what this case boils down to is this: if the cop wanted to cite Brown for littering, all he had to do was write her another ticket. And if she tore up that one and tossed it out the window, cite her again. She would have been the one in trouble. He turned it into a case against him when he stupidly over-reacted and pulled her out of the car.
Dragging a woman from her car, pulling her along by her hair, throwing her onto the pavement, and then holding her down with his knee and cuffing her seems like, um, a firing offense. If he did that over a torn up ticket, I shudder to think what he might have done in a truly serious situation. It's scary to think that such an angry person carries a gun. But if there had been no dash camera and only the woman's word, this incident would have been chalked up to just another effort to shake down a city for some dough. Some here seem to think this even now, despite the visual proof to the contrary.
I hope she sues and prevails. That's how people get the message about what's tolerated and what isn't. It may not be a matter of racist behavior (we'll probably never know for sure), but it's certainly a violation of the woman's rights. Her driving record and attitude are beside the point in terms of the wrongness of the cop's behavior and the validity of her filing a lawsuit over the way she was treated.
posted by CrankyEastSider at 04:54 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
"I rabidly hate all vile smokers, and think they are the lowest ^*&%$%g scum on the face of the earth."
posted by Ampage at 05:03 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Well, at least the ones that litter.
Thanks Darksy.
posted by Ampage at 05:04 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
purnhrt, how do you figure it took place in Toledo? Secor and Edgevale are both in Ottawa Hills. My sister lived on Secor and had an Ottawa Hills address (based on the section of Secor where her house was located). It doesn't seem right that an Ottawa Hills cop would have jurisdiction in Toledo.
posted by CrankyEastSider at 05:42 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
I used the term "buck" because at the time I was seeing red because of all of the stupid comments saying that it is OK for a policeman to "handle" a woman in this manner for any reason. That is absurd. The fact that Deter is white and Ms. Brown is black just adds another layer of questioning of his actions.
Ottawa Hills is so much further advanced than say Toledo, when it comes to race relations, probably because very few Blacks live or work in Ottawa Hills and they were hit with a lawsuit about 8 years ago. They are probably trying to do damage control by condemning Deters actions. Whatever the reason it took courage to take that stand because of the fallout from people like Plantman. Toledo could stand to have a conversation on race relations.
No one should look at that video and say that the actions of the policemen was OK.
Plantman
When Supreme Court Justice Alice Robie Resnick was so disrespectful and belligerant and drunk, that she drove away from the officers who stopped her, she was not dragged from her car by her hair and slammed to the ground and kneed in the back while the officer made up and down movements on her back. Did not Robie Resnick fail the "attitude test?" Or did she get a pass because she was white. I don't remember any Black people pulling the race card and saying that she should have been "Rodney Kinged."
posted by purnhrt at 05:52 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
According to my information one side of Secor is Ottawa Hills and the other side is Toledo at a certain point. I am not from Toledo and the way Toledo is broken up into cities within Toledo boggles my brain, such as Point Place, and Washington Township (with their own School System) and Ottawa Hills. You can drive down Bancroft and a sign says Ottawa Hills and then you are back in Toledo.
Really strange. What is that really all about?
posted by purnhrt at 06:01 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Counties/Cities/Townships have to stop somewhere. What do you want? If your bitter say your bitter - don't attempt to mask it with boundary issues.
posted by Ampage at 06:40 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
purnhrt, I know what you mean. It seems old that sections of one road can jut in and out of a given community. And there are streets where one side of the street has bus service from, say, Oregon schools -- while the opposite side has bus service from Toledo schools.
Oregon and Northwood have boundaries that flip flop as you drive down the road. This caused some confusion when I placed a 911 call recently. Got the wrong cops.
I think there was a murder case years ago that involved a problem with where the 911 call was placed versus where the crime was. The Sawicki case (I think that's the name).
posted by CrankyEastSider at 07:20 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
The cop was dead wrong. He deserved to get canned, and intelligently resigned before it happened. But this in no way means the woman wasnt in the wrong too. Sorry if some of you feel differently.
The sad part is this could all have been prevented if they'd have seen this training film.
Show it to your children. It might save them a lot of pain in the future.
posted by billy at 07:33 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
The woman certainly wouldn't have been in the position if she didn't do the crime, but wrestling a woman to the ground for attitude? Next time someone gives me attitude I'll just knock them to the ground too and dig my knee in their back. If I were the cop, I would have just re-ticketed her and laughed to myself. Regardless if she ripped up the ticket or not, it's still on her record and she still has the go to court and if she doesn't -- then I guess she'll have an outstanding warrant. Either way, the joke was still on her. Now the joke is on the mental moron who can't keep his cool over a little attitude.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 09:31 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Gee, maybe if the cop would have just asked "pretty please with sugar on top" she would have listened.
Then again, what if she had a gun under the front seat and wanted to use it after she threw the ticket out the window?
No one knows. I remember the cop pulling over the man who had a sawed off shotgun on his lap and as the cop approached the drivers door, the driver pulled the trigger and removed the cop's head.
What the hell was she doing speeding??? Why did she give the cop so much grief? Whey did she not just take her crappy ticket and drive away?
Ok, ok, so the cop was wrong and the cop resigned. Now what? Oh, that's right, she'll feel much better after she gets money from a lawsuit. How is that money going to help? It'll help her forget the pain and humiliation of the night. All to come of this is the removal of power from cops and transferring it to the losers who don't obey simple traffic laws to begin with.
Maybe that "loser" driver can get with the two "loser" creeps who said that they lost control of their car to avoid a "bra" and file a class action suit against all law enforcement. Grow up people and take some responsibility for your actions.
posted by tommy1 at 09:49 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
"If he had wanted to cite her for littering ..."
No if. He did. If you read the story or watch the video, you will see that the officer charged Brown with:
* speeding (49/35)
* no car insurance
* littering
* disorderly conduct
* obstructing official business
posted by jr at 10:22 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
I'm not defending the Officer's actions in the T-stop, nor am I saying he was wrong. To come to a 'right/wrong' conclusion of the Officer's actions from viewing a snippet of film that the news media provided is BS. Just like the Rodney King video, you saw what the media wanted you to see. Had everyone viewed the entire chase and all the video, many would have agreed with the LAPD officers. (and many weren't made aware of King's lengthy 'rap' sheet, including previous acts of violence)
My point, simply put, is that I am sick to death of the race card being played. How many times have I heard "you're only arresting/ticketing me because I'm black/asian/hispanic"
No, Police Officers shouldn't 'lose their cool', but try to remember folks, they are much like you - they're human, have their faults, they have their 'good days' and their 'bad days'. More than 95% of the time, they're dealing with felons or other miscreants, and invariably there's some fool that is doing his damnedest to 'piss in your cornflakes'. They see innocent lives snuffed out - often times children - because of some foolish stunt by a drunk driver or some other idiotic act! 50+ hours a week, day after day, you're getting verbally abused for doing your job and giving somebody a ticket or hooking them up for breaking the law. After all this crap and you still want him to be 'Officer Friendly'?
Now, let's all ask ourselves this: "If all I ever got was abused at work and never shown any appreciation, might I have a 'moment' and lose my cool?
Instead of damning the police, I dare you to walk up to the next Police Officer (or Fireman, for that matter) and say "Thank You for doing your job and protecting my butt"
Realize folks that they are human and have their moments of weakness and yes, some 'bad apples'. You, Mr. Salesman, you, Mrs. Business Owner and yes you, Doctor - you all have some 'lemons' in your businesses too, but 1 bad apple does not spoil the bunch!
Let's just quit using the race card and let's all start taking some Personal Responsibility for our actions, or lack thereof!
posted by Plantman at 10:32 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
I watched the video clip on wtol.com and was disturbed with the officer's behavior, but it is hard to know what else went on verbally. Still, no excuse for the extreme actions.
I was also amazed at the number of other traffic violations this woman had, beyond the most recent speeding ticket and driving without insurance. Totally irresponsible.
The officer may have just had a bad day and the (assumed) mouthy altercation with this woman may have been enough to put him over the edge, regardless of what color her skin is. She should think long before suing; she may have some explaining of her to do about her some very bad behavior.
posted by crazytimes at 10:55 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
First of all, all you saw was a brief encounter of the incident. This took place over the course of an hour or more with 42 minutes of video tape before the officer turned the video camera around. Therefore you don't know what took place before. All you saw was paper (the ticket) flying out of the window and the officer? pulling open the car door and dragging Ms. Brown out of the truck by her hair, and being thrown to the ground and being kneed in the back.
You do not know how much harassment (racial or otherwise)took place before you even got to that point.
Of course neither do you, but you seem to be just as sure of yourself as the other opinions are. Using your own logic, how are you so damn sure youre right and people who think Ms Brown was at fault are wrong?? HAve you got info that other people (as YOU point out!) dont?
Was it because Ms. Brown was black and the officer was white? I think so.
Let me quote Walter Williams: Prejudice is a useful term that's often misused. Its Latin root is praejudicium, meaning "an opinion or judgment formed . . . without due examination." Thus, we might define prejudicial acts as decision-making on the basis of incomplete information.
You pointed out that the video doesnt show everything that went on, but you still "Have an opinion or judgment formed"... So are you being prejudiced here prunhrt?
You then make two points in a row:
Ms. Brown just received her BA from Toledo University in May and is attending Nursing School preparing for her Masters Degree... and
the news reported that she has a long history of traffic violations
If the fact that her history of traffic violations has no bearing on this incident just because theyve been taken care of, why should the fact that she's in college have any bearing on it? Are you really going to tell us that a college student cannot be guilty of DUI? Im not saying she is - in fact I believe the opposite, but you just arent making sense.
My question to those of you who see no racism in the part that you did see on television is what could have possibly provoked this officer for his behavior? You say yourself we couldnt see everything - it goes both ways. She was belligerant? You could take her actions as belligerant, yes. She was disrespectful? Tossing he ticket out of the window? Hell Yes! She was female? Yep! She was black? Yep! What?
That's a yes to every question you asked. How about a question back to you - why do YOU so quickly say it's a racist issue? What if the cop was just an idiot and would have done that to anyone? Can you say that for sure that's not the case? What if he just hated women and she could have been green, but because she was female she got hammered down? What if pray tell, the cop was RIGHT??? Lest you forget, You said yourself all you saw was a brief encounter of the incident. This took place over the course of an hour or more with 42 minutes of video tape before the officer turned the video camera around. Therefore you don't know what took place before.
And finally you say When Supreme Court Justice Alice Robie Resnick was so disrespectful and bellegerant and drunk, that she drove away from the officers who stopped her, she was not dragged from her car by her hair and slammed to the ground and kneed in the back while the officer made up and down movements on her back.
I'll give you that one - when she was belligerant and drove away, they SHOULD have cuffed her and stuffed her!!
But just because that crotchety old bitch resnik got off with a slap on the wrist and this woman got what she did, you cant use one as an example for the other.
Let me ask question again - exactly what makes you so sure this was all racially motivated?
posted by billy at 10:55 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
they are much like you - they're human,...
Absolutely. And if it were not for the errant "human factor" that strikes all of us square in the arse at times we would have a totally uneventful existence.
Any public servant (yep - SERVANT) is held to a higher standard. Sometimes this standard is a very difficult one to meet when that old "human factor" surfaces.
The ability to maintain any level of logic, reason, common sense, training, gut instinct, base knowledge, or patience can easily fly out the window when the stress levels are high and the blood is pounding through your veins at 1000 mph. Should that be the case? Probably not, but it is.
If you work in a carry out and are constantly seeing folks that don't live as you think they should, or you work in a bank and can't understand why Mr. Jones just can't seem to keep a 'decent' balance, or you wait tables in a diner and the customers in the 3rd booth have sent you for the 10th time to get yet another pat of butter....and then just ONE of them (regardless of color, ethnicity, background) starts cursing at you, throwing stuff at you, or spits on you.......I think that keeping your cool is going to be damned near impossible. And when you lose it??? Then what?
I don't believe that this is all there is to this story. As usual, BAD news sells. And we are ALL guilty of reading it.
posted by DoknowDocare at 10:59 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
tommy 1
Gee, maybe if the cop would have just asked "pretty please with sugar on top" she would have listened.
Now what was she supposed to be listening to? If she had a gun why would she throw the ticket out of the window? The officer left himself open to all kinds of danger by ignoring what he had been taught as a police officer. He was so enraged that he left Ms. Brown's father in the back seat and proceeded to pull Ms. Brown out of the car by her hair, throw her on the ground and put his knee in her back in an up and down motion. He then notices her father standing by the truck. He was so engrossed in brutalizing Ms. Brown that he ignored a standard police proceedure, "keep your eyes on everybody in the car and call for back up." He didn't call for backup until after he brutalized Ms. Brown. I doubt that any amount of money can make Ms. Brown or her father ever forget that night. How helpless did the father feel to see his daughter thrown down in the street and a man on top of her brutalizing her? No money can pay for that.
Plantman
My point, simply put, is that I am sick to death of the race card being played. How many times have I heard "you're only arresting/ticketing me because I'm black/asian/hispanic"
When Supreme Court Justice Alice Robie Resnick was so disrespectful and belligerant and drunk, that she drove away from the officers who stopped her, she was not dragged from her car by her hair and slammed to the ground and kneed in the back while the officer made up and down movements on her back. In that incident did any black/asian/hispanic play the race card by saying that Robie Resnick was not brutalized because she was white.
Policeman are held to a higher standard that the average Joe. A policeman is trained to do his/her job. He is not trained to take matters into his own hands and brutalize men, women or children of any color. Policemen cannot afford to have bad days, when that happens people get killed. The three state troopers who were killed a few weeks ago were in the accident because the one trooper was drunk. We cannot afford to have people with guns, tasers and automobiles have bad days. Maybe policeman should only work a few hours a day if the job is too much for them.
Maybe in your job you can afford to lose your cool but policeman cannot afford to do that while on the public payroll. Their job is to protect and serve, when they can no longer live up to that standard step down and let someone else do the job.
You know it would be pretty hard for me to walk up to Officer Friendly because Officer Friendly has not been very friendly to me in my neighborhood.
Once again if you are a policeman you cannot afford to lose "your cool," you have a job to do and if you can't do it effectively without resorting to violence then step down and let someone else do it.
There is no such thing as a race card, it's just an extra tax that black people pay for being black. Toledo has a lot of work to do around the issue of race. It will take a lot more than an "Erase the Hate" sign.
posted by purnhrt at 11:46 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 13, 2006 #
Billy
says
I'll give you that one - when she was belligerant and drove away, they SHOULD have cuffed her and stuffed her!!
You say they should have cuffed her and stuffed her but it was ok to drag Ms. Brown out of her truck by her hair, slam her down on the ground, knee her in the back. Why did you not say that the officer should have cuffed and stuffed Ms. Brown? Once she threw the ticket he did not give her a chance to do anything, he grabbed the door and grabbed her. He never asked her to get out of the car. He just got enraged and proceeded to brutalize the young woman.
Robie Resnick was disrespectful, belligerant AND drunk. The policeman did three sobriety tests on Ms. Brown and she passed all three, blowing a zero on the breathalizer (sp?). She was the designated driver for the night.
Resnick did not get slapped anywhere, much less on the wrist. Ms. Brown got dragged by her hair, thrown to the ground and kneed.
I did not quickly say that race played a part. I just wrote it in the post, I have had plenty of time to formulate my opinion and did so only after I saw the video.
If he is a policeman who just hates women and she could have been green then he has issues that should exclude him from being a policeman because half of the people he deals with are probably women and not green ones and he was right to resign.
What makes you so sure that it was not racially motivated. Were any racial words used?
Of course no one can see inside another persons heart. But what would make this officer just absolutely lose it and place his life in jeopardy against all training proceedures, against everything he has been taught as a policeman? He was enraged. Would he have been as enraged if this was a young white woman and her father, I think not. I think we tend to identify with and have more compassion for what we know.
posted by purnhrt at 12:23 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
Perhaps as someone from Ottawa Hills, and as someone who has known Officer Deters for years, I can speak to this.
Officer Deters has a good heart, but he lacks the common sense required by a police officer (like most Ottawa Hills police officers). I won't go into details, but his actions on dash-cam don't surprise me. I don't think he was being racist, but instead I think he was being a stupid, over-agressive Ottawa Hills police officer (like they are). It's as simple as that. They want to pretend they are more than badged, country-bumpkin rent-a-cops.
posted by junta330 at 12:26 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
Surgical doctors carry life and death in their hands, literally. How do we deal with their "bad days"? Yes, we have the AMA and malpractice insurance. In uncommon instances doctors lose their licence to practice.
Why is it then so hard to conceive that we don't have similar control methods for police? And largely, when a police officer has a "bad day", the result is a few bruises or a trumped-up charge -- not a damaged heart, dead limb or partial brain-death. The instances of unjustified police shootings in America are rare. (In contrast, medical mistakes claim 80000 lives yearly.)
This Ottawa Hills incident is regrettable. The current facts of the case suggest that TWO people needed either a good slap, or a thumb-sucking "time out" in the corner. However, there are disciplinary routes of handling this matter. For the driver, there were the tickets. For the officer, there were various disciplinary actions (censure affecting raises and promotion, unpaid days off, forfeiture of pay, etc.).
That the officer in question was effectively told to resign (i.e. soft firing) is more a measure of what we were NOT told. Who actually decided that the officer didn't merit the standard disciplinary actions?
P.S. Let's not play the race card with the Resnick Incident. Let's recall instead that Resnick was not so much White, as she was a high-ranked legal official. Mayors across America get out of a lot of traffic tickets over time, and there are plenty of Blacks in their number.
posted by GuestZero at 01:27 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
The comparison to Judge Resnick doesn't fly. The patrolmen knew that she wasn't just any drunk white woman. She was a drunk white woman with enough clout to make life really uncomfortable for the patrolmen. Dealing with attitudes goes with the territory for cops bad day or not. He and Ottawa Hills are better off if he finds another line of work. On the other hand, Ms. Brown called Officer Deters a Republican. Now them's fightin' words.
posted by bobthedad at 07:10 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
Purnhrt, why do you still insist on playing the race card?
You quote me about Resnik, then conveniently omit the part where I say you cant use one as an example for the other. , because that's exactly what you go on to do.
You say I did not quickly say that race played a part. I just wrote it in the post, I have had plenty of time to formulate my opinion and did so only after I saw the video. Oh come on - thats just bs, as is Would he have been as enraged if this was a young white woman and her father, I think not.
You have zero proof of any of these allegations. The biggest turd you tossed out was in response to Tommy when you said There is no such thing as a race card - Puh-lease!!! You toss it out like candy from a parade float.
You're completely contradictory to yourself When you say Of course no one can see inside another persons heart.
Because if that's true and you truly were 'pure in heart', you wouldnt be so fast to spread your racist hate.
posted by billy at 07:14 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
Chris Rock could not have made it anymore clearer than in his skit "How Not To Get Your Ass Kicked By The Police". Funny and TRUE. I recommend all persons of color watch it. Sorry purnhrt. While I believe that racism and prejudice exists tenfold, I also believe that one should not tempt the Lord thy God. Ms. Brown tempted the Lord thy God by speeding in the first place - especially in a notorious village like Ottawa Hills.
posted by MrsPhoenix at 07:21 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
Chris Rock's skit is truth for ALL people - why just people of color? I know full well that my father taught me how to act if I were ever pulled over by a cop, and straight from the skit -
Obey the Law
Use common sense
Stop immediately
Turn that shit off (rap,rock,country,opera...)
Be polite
stay in your car
shut the fuck up
tell your friends to shut the fuck up
Now, my father didnt use that exact language, but he hit on every one of those points! And theyre as true today as they were 30 years ago when he taught them to me - no matter WHAT your color is...
posted by billy at 07:38 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
Obey the Law
Use common sense
Stop immediately
Turn that shit off (rap,rock,country,opera...)
Be polite
stay in your car
shut the fuck up
tell your friends to shut the fuck up
Sound advice, no doubt about it.
Sometimes, though, in Ottawa Hills it doesn't work.
Many, many moons ago, as a student at UT, I was pulled over for speeding in OH while returning from Franklin Park Mall. Think I was doing 43 in 35 zone. Anyway, I pulled over right away, was polite, had my license and registration all ready for the officer, etc. He was a major league asshole in attitude, then, after running my info for outstanding warrents, etc. (there were none), proceeded to order me out of the car, place hands on the car, patted me down and spent about 10 minutes searching my car for I can only suspect to be drugs. There were none. The whole time his attitude was like one of the guys on 'Cops', but I was basically a half-scared 20 year old with nothing to hide and no attitude back towards him. Perhaps the fact I had an out-of-state license (Pa.) complicated things for him, but there was no reason for the pat-down and car-search. And certainly not for the demeanor. And, after all this, I DID NOT EVEN GET A SPEEDING TICKET, which was the only bright spot.
My advice to anyone, regardless of color, if you're driving in Ottawa Hills, especially at night and you don't live in the village, have your shit together. Even then it may not be enough to escape a bad experience.
posted by McCaskey at 10:01 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
Is it true she was doing 49 in a 35 zone???
If that truly was her father in the car with her, he should be ashamed at her behavior. Is that acceptable behavior to him? Did he teach her that wonderful behavior?
Maybe she should have started a riot and blamed that on some white supremists????
Maybe she was speeding to avoid a white man that threw his jockey shorts out the window at her?
Please, save us the constant news coverage of her lawsuit details, save us the wasted tax money spent on lawyers and just give her the money she wants so she can go get her "spinner" wheels for her SUV, thumping stereo and continue to ignore the speed limits. Maybe next time "Miss Thang" speeds through a neighborhood she'll hit an innocent black child and then let me hear the racist crap.
posted by tommy1 at 10:07 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
I would think that a police officer, no matter how long they have been on, should be able to control themselves. Isnt this part of the trianing they get?
I think if she was a threat or had a gun or had a warrant, then he had the right to pull her out but for throwing a ticket out the window and getting loud with him? No I dont think so.
posted by Ontheedge at 10:08 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
I believe that in this case the officer lost his cool and did follow proper proceedures, but that does not excuse the fact that Ms. Brown was violating the law and should have been charged for her actions.It is my understanding that all charges have been dropped.What is with that?One of the charges was driving without insurance.Isn't the state of Ohio supposed to pull her plates or license for that violation or is she still driving today without insurance?Does she get a "get out of jail free card" for being black?Just because the officer did not act in a professional manner does not give Ms. Brown the right to speed and drive without insurance.This whole matter would not have happened if she were obeying the law ,but I guess she will now profit from driving while black!I am sure that some blood sucking attorney has already contacted her to see how much money they can bleed from Ottawa Hills over this matter.Maybe Ottawa Hills ought to consider hiring an all black police force so these ridiculous charges of racism will not happen in the future.
posted by buckeye277 at 10:26 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
The bottom line is that the officer was WRONG. It's Ottawa Hills fault for having a moron on thier force. It's WRONG that the Ottawa Hills police force dropped charges on the woman. So to me it seems Ottawa Hills is wrong and some blood sucking lawyer should suck every possible penny out of them. Don't be mad at the woman for getting a "get out of jail free card." Be mad at the idiots who gave it to her. Some people's comments make them sound jealous of the woman for that. It isn't her fault. Who wouldn't take a get out of jail free card. Racial issue? I don't know, honestly though what do you think would have happened had the woman been white? I'm sure he's pulled over hostile white women, though I've never heard of him abusing them. I think there's a good case there for racism.
posted by Kmorgan at 10:47 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
I said;"I believe that in this case the officer lost his cool and did follow proper proceedures, "
Sorry my bad.I meant to say that the officer did not follow proper proceedures.OMG what was I thinking?
posted by buckeye277 at 11:22 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
tommy said:
Maybe she should have started a riot and blamed that on some white supremists????
Maybe she was speeding to avoid a white man that threw his jockey shorts out the window at her?
Please, save us the constant news coverage of her lawsuit details, save us the wasted tax money spent on lawyers and just give her the money she wants so she can go get her "spinner" wheels for her SUV, thumping stereo and continue to ignore the speed limits. Maybe next time "Miss Thang" speeds through a neighborhood she'll hit an innocent black child and then let me hear the racist crap.
Because that didn't sound racially loaded or stereotypical.
Please tell me you've never sped over the speed limit, and if you say you haven't, then you're lying. As for her dad, he was drunk. They were coming home from a party. Atleast they were smart enough to designate a driver.
And if she would have gone 36 mph in 35 mph, I'll bet you anything they would have pulled her over for that too. Ottawa Hills police are dicks.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:03 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
BILLY
I never said that I was pure in heart. Pure in Heart Village is the name of my business.
TO ALL WHO CLAIM THE 'RACE CARD' WAS PLAYED
Officer Deter apologized to the family last evening. Even he knows he is wrong. When you admit a wrong, that is the first step to reconciliation. The black community just wants an apology for the offense (whatever it may be), have the offense made right and a promise not to do the offense again. But that rarely happens with white America. Instead we are always accused of playing the "RACE CARD" There is no card for us to play there is just a tax that black people pay for "DRIVING WHILE BLACK, WALKING WHILE BLACK AND LIVING WHILE BLACK.'
posted by purnhrt at 01:30 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
One of the charges was driving without insurance.Isn't the state of Ohio supposed to pull her plates or license for that violation or is she still driving today without insurance?
They can suspend your license if you don't have insurance, but just because she was cited for not having it doesn't mean she doesn't have insurance - it means she didn't have PROOF of insurance at the time she was pulled over. Once you provide proof that you were covered at the time of the stop, that charge will be dropped.
posted by valbee at 02:47 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
Buckeye277
.Maybe Ottawa Hills ought to consider hiring an all black police force so these ridiculous charges of racism will not happen in the future.
Sometime it is the ridiculous statements made by people that just need to be challenged. Why would Ottawa Hills consider hiring an all black police force? Cities with a majority population of blacks would not have an all black police force. When you say "these charges of racism" will not happen in the future did you mean the Brown case or have there been other cases where an Ottawa Hills police officer has been involved in a case of police brutality?
posted by purnhrt at 03:21 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
GuestZero
To you, Alice Robie Resnick was a high level legal official. To me (sitting in the ghetto with all of the hood rats)she was a white woman who was treated differently than a black woman would have been treated under the same set of circumstances!
posted by purnhrt at 03:46 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
bobthedad
see above to GuestZero
the comparison doesn't fly because one was white and one was black. different strokes for different folks.
posted by purnhrt at 03:50 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
Tommy1
You are off the hook! You are what scares me about Toledo, Ohio in the year 2006 in the 21st Century.
posted by purnhrt at 03:59 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
Race Card?? You people who are screaming race card need to check the color of your skin and ask yourselves if you belong saying anything about that. My guess is that none of you have lived the life of a black person, so you really don't know what you're talking about.
posted by Kmorgan at 04:13 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
I've never lived the life of a politician or a professional athlete, but that doesn't stop me from talking about them. Who the hell are you, Kmorgan, to tell people here what they can and cannot say?
posted by jr at 04:19 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
You people who are screaming race card need to check the color of your skin and ask yourselves if you belong saying anything about that.
What do you mean "You people"?
posted by thenick at 05:40 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
The officer may have just had a bad day and the (assumed) mouthy altercation with this woman may have been enough to put him over the edge, regardless of what color her skin is.
*****************************************
THE OFFICER MAY HAVE JUST HAD A BAD DAY???????????? Good grief, if that is not the worst excuse for abusive behaviour. Just a bad day...if he's this way on the job on a bad day, what's he like at home, on a 'bad day'? It's common knowledge that cops have a very high domestic/spousal abuse violence rate. Wonder if he's married, and if so, what's his wifes' thoughts on his ability to handle a 'bad day'? We all have freaking bad days, ask any parent who's ever raised little kids, and we sure as hell handled our 'bad days' better than this cop did.
jr said "Clearly the officer should have been more lenient to someone with a lengthy conviction record" ========== why is THAT? That doesn't even make sense to me.
Ampage said ""I rabidly hate all vile smokers, and think they are the lowest ^*&%$%g scum on the face of the earth." ======== wow. Now that's a statement from somebody with some serious anger issues. Are we smokers lower than alcoholics & drug users? Or child molesters? Smokers do not break the law. And not all smokers litter their butts. No offense taken though - I feel almost the same about the anti smoking nazi you appear to be.
posted by starling02 at 06:53 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
First of all I never told anybody what they can and can not say I clearly said maybe they ought to consider whether they should be saying anything and "You People" clearly refers to the people who are accusing the woman of pulling a race card. Yeah it turns out all you have to do is read after the words You People to see who You People is refering too. So there you are no offense intended.
posted by Kmorgan at 08:07 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
Hey I wonder if the cop would have attacked a 200 lb man. hmmm, sounds like a sexist issue.
posted by Kmorgan at 08:09 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
Chris Rock could not have made it anymore clearer than in his skit "How Not To Get Your Ass Kicked By The Police". Funny and TRUE. I recommend all persons of color watch it. Sorry purnhrt. While I believe that racism and prejudice exists tenfold, I also believe that one should not tempt the Lord thy God. Ms. Brown tempted the Lord thy God by speeding in the first place - especially in a notorious village like Ottawa Hills.
I don't know that Chris Rock would be the role model that I want telling my children how not to get brutalized by the police. It is still not clear whether she was speeding or not. This police officer had prior contact with the father two years ago about his son (her brother)and the father reported that he was a rogue cop to his superiors. Obviously the OHPD took no corrective action with this officer and let him still operate as usual. Maybe if corrective action had taken place then, what happened to the daughter would not have taken place. This father and daughter were simply going home after being at a party and the daughter was the designated driver. So I really can't say that she tempted God by speeding. They may have tempted God by going out at night. The incident took place in Toledo, not Ottawa Hills.
posted by purnhrt at 09:38 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
AMPAGE
Counties/Cities/Townships have to stop somewhere. What do you want? If your bitter say your bitter - don't attempt to mask it with boundary issues.
What exactly do you mean by "if your bitter say your bitter." Do you mean that I am bitter, because if that is the case you have the wrong person. Bitter about what? Because I say what I mean and mean what I say? I simply asked a question about the strange way Toledo (I think) has cities inside of cities. I don't know why that would elicit such a response.
posted by purnhrt at 10:13 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
When Supreme Court Justice Alice Robie Resnick was so disrespectful and belligerant and drunk, that she drove away from the officers who stopped her, she was not dragged from her car by her hair and slammed to the ground and kneed in the back while the officer made up and down movements on her back. In that incident did any black/asian/hispanic play the race card by saying that Robie Resnick was not brutalized because she was white.
My guess is that the Judge was let go had a lot more to do with the fact that she was a Judge then it had to do with her skin color.
Even Purhrt's last post trying to say she wasn't speeding and insinuating she was pulled over because she was black.
The cop was out of line in his treatment of her, but I still say that the automatically make the jump to playing the race card is crap.
Hey I wonder if the cop would have attacked a 200 lb man. hmmm, sounds like a sexist issue
See now I'd see that as a cause before anything else. This guy was obviously an ass. Admits to having "family" problems. His wife probably got sick of him and left and he was just pushed over the line by another woman getting mouthy with him.
Point is, there are a million different things it could have been, it's tired and cliche to cry color.
posted by OhioKat at 10:17 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
billy
You're completely contradictory to yourself When you say Of course no one can see inside another persons heart.
Because if that's true and you truly were 'pure in heart', you wouldnt be so fast to spread your racist hate.
There is an African Proverb, "You see my face but you don't know my heart."
What racist hate am I spreading? It is amazing to me that in the Twenty-First Century, America is still having this same stupid conversation. Because I love my people, does not mean that I hate yours. I am proud of my people, that we came here in the holds of slave ships and still we survive, by whatever means necessary. You don't know me. You don't know anything about me. All you know about me is what you may have read. I never said I was "pure in heart", that is the name of my daycare business but you speak from a heart of guilt!
It does not change my personal feelings about this case: that it is a case of racial profiling. No if, ands, or but about it!!
posted by purnhrt at 10:33 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
ohiokat said:
Hey I wonder if the cop would have attacked a 200 lb man. hmmm, sounds like a sexist issue
See now I'd see that as a cause before anything else.
What kind of thinking is that? It wasn't a 200 lb man, so how could you see that as a cause? It was a 120 lb black woman. Just stupid thinking!!!
posted by purnhrt at 10:43 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
"... why is THAT? That doesn't even make sense to me."
I'm not surprised my comment doesn't make sense to you, starling02. Read my entire comment, and you'll see the sarcasm. In other words, starling02, I was joking.
posted by jr at 10:49 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
I'm sorry jr - I had read your comment, but that went right over my dense head.
posted by starling02 at 11:18 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
I agree with the other posters who said all this cop had to do was give her a ticket for littering, and leave. Then, she'd still maybe throw that one away as well, but she'd have two tickets to fight or ignore. If she ignored them there'd be a bench warrent for her arrest. Good point if it was a 200 lb guy this wouldn't have happened. Not about race at all, and I too am tired of this sorry excuse for anything that goes wrong. That said - I do realize that some cops have abused their power with blacks in Ottawa Hills (walking while black), and yes, blacks do have a right to be offended and concerned if that happens. But you do as billys dad said - shut up, turn off the loud music, be polite, shut up, etc. and have your day in court. Dont argue shit with the cop at the scene - that gets nobody nothing, ever, but grief. My guess is there's a lot of undesirables who've been stopped by Ottawa Hills police who were not black with the same negative attitude - it's that smug mindset of Ottawa Hills in general, always has been the case. But if you spout attitude to the cop who's writing the damned ticket, you're gonna dig yourself in a deeper hole by pissing him off. Take it to the judge.
posted by starling02 at 11:25 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 14, 2006 #
I watched the video, and in all honesty, I didn't see the cop pull her hair. I saw him pull her out by the arm, swing her around the back of her car, place his hand on the neck/head area and force her down.
In addition to which, there was no audio. So no one can really say that this was warranted or not. I mean had the woman made some veiled threat to the cop, hell by all means rip her out and subdue her.
If she didn't, well then the cop needs anger management classes or something.
To demonstrate a point, here's a link to where a black woman got tazed somewhere. (JR, if I'm not supposed to be posting a link to youtube.com, remove it with my apologies)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr9V1Cy-aqI
Here we see a very similar incident, only this time there is audio. I'd be curious to see if everyone comes down on the same side of the issue.
What interests me the most about the responses on this thread, is the whole race thing.
I mean, its not like 'people of colour' are not guilty of racism too. Hell, I've been racially discriminated against, by a black woman who thought that she was meeting a black african for coffee.
Does racism exist? yup.
On both sides of the colour line? you betcha
Is this a case of racism? who knows
The question though, is this. Is racism a policy of OHPD?
I would have to say no. OHPD, are nothing more than a bunch of rent-a-cops hired by a bunch of snobs, who want to regulate who comes into their little fiefdom, and who doesn't REGARDLESS of colour.
There is one deniable fact however:
If this woman had not been speeding, did not have a rap sheet, and did not throw the ticket out of the window, none of this would have happened.
As such, imho, she is to blame for EVERYTHING that went down that night.
posted by WhiteAfricanAmerican at 07:10 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
Having been stopped and shaken by the Ottawa Hills PD, I tend to believe that the OHPD doesn't discriminate; They hate everyone equally. This makes the OHPD pretty much the same as every other PD. There are are only three classes of people: Police, Victims and Scumbags.
posted by madjack at 12:25 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
There are are only three classes of people: Police, Victims and Scumbags.
Oh that's hysterical, I like that jack, can I use it?
posted by WhiteAfricanAmerican at 01:59 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
WhiteAfricanAmerican, he did pull her hair. She is even yelling about that on the tape. It happens after she's out of the vehicle, but before he has her on the ground.
I'm not sure if I could hear her yelling about it and see it happening in the posted video, or if was just on TV. On my computer, at least, the online video is not nearly as clear (by eye and ear) as the broadcast quality.
posted by CrankyEastSider at 06:20 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
She could have been a green alien from mars for all I care. She was speeding (fact). The officer smelled alcohol (fact). He had every right to administer a sobriety test. She resisted and acted like an a$$. Even after she had the option to just take her ticket and leave, she still opened her rude, unrespectful mouth and threw the ticket (or whatever) out the window in an act of defying authority. Then, and only then, she was treated rough. That officer was only giving her the beating that her father should have given her years ago. If she had gotten that beating from her father years ago, she would have taken her ticket and left without incident.
When I grew up and even now, I greet people with "sir" and "madam". The younger generation just don't give a crap. No respect, no accountability. This is a perfect example of lack of respect. Did the officer stop her because she was black, I highly doubt it. She got treated like that because of her attitude and actions. I believe she deserved worse. Not because she was black, but because she acted like an a$$.
posted by tommy1 at 07:58 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
Ottawa Hills Officers a bunch of rent-a-cops???
get real, They are a police force. Just like Toledo or any other force. True, they are a smaller force, nonetheless still a police force.
I see comment after comment refering to the Ottawa Hills Police Department like they are nothing. To hell with that, they are a police force. You would think with all the money in Ottawa Hills their police force would be even better trained.
They have a real problem there in Ottawa Hills if you ask me. This is not exactly the first time for something like this in Ottawa Hills.
It's not the woman's fault in any way. Cops are supposed to respond in a professional manner, no matter what. By the way who said she was speeding?? and is his word credable anymore??
posted by Kmorgan at 08:00 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
Poor, poor victim. I hope her money from the stupid lawsuit does her better than that poor, poor Rodney King. Here's a little information on poor, poor Mr. King and the undeserved treatment he got.
Since the 1991 incident, King has been arrested several times for attempting to run over an undercover police officer, drug infractions, domestic violence, soliciting a prostitute and other motoring offenses. He has also worked in construction and started the rap label "Straight Alta-Pazz". Although he received $3.8 million in a civil suit against the LAPD, he is reportedly bankrupt and living in a drug rehab center. To quote BBC news, "much of it went to pay his lawyers, but he used the rest to found a rap record business, the Straight Alta-Pazz Recording Company".
posted by tommy1 at 08:02 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
And to think that some people think this issue is as clear as black and white!
posted by Beowulf at 08:04 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
The young generation doesn't have respect?? You sound like your mad at them tommy1. Well it's the old generation who failed to teach that to them.
I notice older people are so quick to blame children, teens and young adults for the way they are nowadays.
but they're not the ones putting crap on TV or making video games jam packed with gore. They don't bring drugs into the country. It's just not their fault that they are the way they are. We have failed them.
To top it off we don't exactly treat our young with respect, and respect is something that you get when you give.
posted by Kmorgan at 08:16 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
Ok - one question then - and the initial clip of the tape I saw the officer had the woman by the hair - and the announcer had said he pulled her out by the hair..
Is police protocol to forcibly remove someone from a vehicle this way IF someone is behaving badly?
I would have thought that they would open the door and just asked her to get out and failing that call for backup....????
posted by katie82640 at 08:18 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
Who cares what Rodney King's money was used for.
It's sick that you even investigated that. The fact is a jury thought he was mistreated and he was awarded a settlement. It doesn't matter if he spent the money on a big crack rock or donated it to charity. That's his business/problem
posted by Kmorgan at 08:22 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
I don't live in the area but my work involves training and equipment for several of the suburban police agencies in the area, Ottawa Hills included. I do not handle any type of training in the area in question (cover my a**) Because of this I am very familiar with the officers and their experience and have taken a big interest in this incident to see if I need to tailor some of what I do.
I have a few problems with some of the opinions expressed here.
1. Nick44 stated, "Ottawa Hills police officers are not exactly cream of the crop. I don't mean to insult these officers, but they don't have the same training and background as a State Highway Patrolman, or even TPD.
RESPONSE: This could not be further from the truth. The suburban police agencies, Ottawa Hills, Sylvania City and Township, UT, Holland, etc. receive far more training throughout the year than TPD or the State Patrol. The departments have a lot of money earmarked for training every year and fewer officers to send. It is not at all unusual for at least one officer to be off every week because he is at some kind of training through the Ohio Peace Officer academy or a private training company. TPD does not have the manpower to cover officers at training, plus they do not send individual officers to training, it’s done as a group.
Furthermore, these smaller suburban agencies have higher quality officers because they do not have to comply with civil service testing, which, unfortunately dictates who is hired. The suburban agencies who are without civil service are able to be extremely selective in the hiring processes. (sometimes that’s bad). The state patrol for instance must comply by civil service and cannot be selective as long as the candidates meet the requirements. Civil service also mandates filling of positions by sex and race, which some may think is necessary, but a bad result is unqualified candidates.
Also, suburban agencies, while having less of a call volume, have far more experience in following through the entire process with their cases. Toledo police can not even file felony charges, that is what their detective bureau does. Suburban agencies have far more experience in handling a case through the whole process.
I hear constantly from Toledo Police officers how much they would love to work for a suburban agency (and yes I hear Ottawa Hills a lot) because they are not jumping form call to call all day and may self initiate the type of activities they want to do, plus the money can be far better in some of the suburban agencies.
2. Ottawa Hills has a unique makeup for this area of Ohio. In the Cleveland area these types of suburban communities are not unique and are very common. Because it is a wealthy community everyone assumes they want to keep people out. If someone would look at the streets that traverse through Ottawa Hills you would realize this is ridiculous, Central Ave. (SR 120), Secor Rd., Talmadge Rd., and Bancroft St. without walling the village off it is absolutely unreasonable to believe you would “keep people out.”
3. Someone referred to “Cities within Cities in Toledo.” Every city begins and ends somewhere, these political subdivisions just happen to be in a metropolitan area. Ottawa Hills is bordered by The City of Toledo, the southbound lanes of Secor Rd. are Ottawa Hills, the northbound lanes are the City of Toledo. However, the Ohio revised code allows any police officer to enforce the traffic laws of an adjacent lane of traffic, regardless of the city limits. This is why Ottawa Hills can enforce the traffic laws on northbound Secor Rd. and westbound Central Ave. Furthermore, most of the suburban police agencies in Lucas County have their officer Deputized by the Sheriff so that there is never a question of jurisdictional issues. Could a Maumee Police Officer pull you over in Washington Township, absolutely! Obviously this is not the purpose, but it 100% legal in every way.
4. I am biased towards our public servants and let me say this. Police Officers regardless of whether they are employed by Ottawa Hills, The City of Toledo, The City of Oregon or the University of Toledo are there for one thing, to keep you safe. No matter what you think every one of these men and women do a job that no one else would ever want or could do. Every Policeman out there leaves their station every night knowing that a risk of their job is homicide, be a little grateful. Whether you like the people that inhabit the village of Ottawa Hills please understand their officers are out there to keep the roadways safe and keep you safe, regardless of your sex, race or wealth. Trust me, they do not care!
5. This incident in particular has been blown up by the media as usual. Was the Officer wrong, ABSOLUTELY, he violated his department’s use of force policy. However, I know of another trainer who has trained Ottawa Hills and most other local agencies including Toledo, part of his training is teaching Police to pull hair to control suspects. Prior to 2002 Officers were taught to control suspects by placing their weight on the suspect. There are reasons the officer resulted to what he did, even though he did not follow policy by using verbal control techniques.
6. The officer was hurt by his department by being allowed to work two 16 hour shifts in a row, this is a huge national debate in the police community, it’s dangerous, period. Smaller Departments just don’t have the manpower to avoid it. It’s obvious from anyone who trains officers or has had involvement in anyway in the internal workings of a police department that the officer snapped, it appeared the results of fatigue and attitude came to a boil and that was the unfortunate release.
7. I think mostly everyone understands that the race issue in this case was completely ridiculous. Let me put it this way, have you ever tried to look at someone’s face in a car at nighttime, try it, you can’t see them. In this case the car came from behind, now imagine it with headlights in your eyes as well. The only person that mentioned race during the entire encounter was the violator.
8. This type of incident occurs several times a night in the City of Toledo and gets a lot worse than this, difference here is, it’s Ottawa Hills and all their cars have cameras. On a whole suburban agencies tend to be a lot more professional because they are constantly under the microscope.
9. I will not debate that maybe many years ago Ottawa Hills had officers employed that may have had race as a motivation, every department did and many still do. Consider this, look at the ages of many of the officers now. Ottawa Hills for instance has recently added several young officers, their generation does not view race like previous generation, cut these guys a break, you may avoid a ticket out of it.
The bottom line is and I suppose I am most irritated at the opinions of some people who are casting these on the entire police department. This was one officer that made a HUGE mistake. These are fine officers and good people, be a little sensible and rational.
I know I wrote a novel but I hope someone read it and will take something from it. I know it’s natural for people to not like the police, whether it’s a result of jealousy or you think you got a ticket when you shouldn’t have.
Take a minute to think about what these men and women go through every day for you and what they would sacrifice for you. And they do it because they like doing it.
posted by zxcvbnm at 09:09 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
As someone who has known and dealt with the Ottawa Hills police my whole life, I adamantly disagree zxcbnm.
While I agree they are not inherently racist, this is a problem for the entire police department. Not ten years ago, a minority construction worker was arrested for standing on a corner waiting for his brother to deliver his lunch. In fact, a local called the police on him as she was walking her dog. She didn't like this "suspicious" person sitting on a corner waiting for his lunch. To make matters worse, an Ottawa Hills police officer named Shelley Miller, approached this man to ask him questions. He told her the situation, that he was constructing the new wing of the school, and she proceeded to arrest him. The suspect was not happy about the situation, and was charged with resisting arrest. Ottawa Hills settled out of court with this man, and as far as I know, Shelley Miller is still on the force. Is this fair? I doubt it.
While clearly the officer was doing her job, the citizen was a racist, and upon hearing the story from the construction worker, the officer should have stepped down. She didn't. The man knew he had done nothing wrong, and yet the officer attempted to arrest him.
There comes a time when a police officer must exercise good judgment. In this case, she was called to a "situation." Upon realizing the situation, she should have acted responsibly. She chose not to. That is her fault and the fault of the village, her employer. I applaud the village for standing up against Officer Deters on this one. He had no reason to aggressively pull her out of her car only to throw her to the ground. At that point, he could have asked her out of the car, and arrested her in a manner becoming of the situation. And she would be convicted had he done so. She littered, she was speeding, she's guilty. Buy Officer Deters had to ruin it by losing control of his emotions, and I don't think you'd see that from TPD.
posted by junta330 at 11:04 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
All I know is that I have been pulled over and harrassed in O.Hills. more than a few times. It isnt just a coinsidence that my car is a junk heap and they pulled me over? It might not be just prejudice, it is a combination of prejudice and profiling.
posted by 9to5 at 11:14 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 15, 2006 #
Just so we know, a year or two ago the TPD changed the allowed tactics for taking people down to the ground (and as well, to literally pull people out of car windows (albeit in situations different than what happened recently)). Pulling hair is now a perfectly valid -- even preferential -- tactic. I had a friend illustrate to me directly how that works, precisely, and I have to admit that it's pretty effective. If anyone here knows a cop or two, have them show you the technique. You'll be on the ground in a jiffy. (Note that I DIDN'T have the out-the-window technique demonstrated on me, since I've no desire to experience all that pain. I may as well ask for a taser demonstration (which we note officers can't perform since each taser shot is accounted for). I went through chem training in the military, and that was enough self-abuse just to see nonlethal methods in action.)
posted by GuestZero at 06:12 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
zxcvbnm said: “Because it is a wealthy community everyone assumes they want to keep people out.”
No, since their police force likes to target the poor and the Black, we KNOW they want to keep people out. There are too many anecdotes for you to PR spin away.
At any rate, keeping people out of neighborhoods that "don't belong" is too pervasive a feeling in the American population. The middle class are probably the most virulent about it since they're just as elitist about being apart from the poor, but they're not so wealthy that their properties are adequately protected by security systems and a dedicated police force.
My advice to you is to stop lying in such an obvious way; you only look foolish. The rest of your lengthy posting is filled with more prevarication (for instance, police are trained (by instructors and by experience) to be observant, so saying they can't tell who's in the car ahead is pure bullshit). You can't defend the actions of many of the suburban police departments in their elitism and outright disposal of civil rights.
posted by GuestZero at 06:24 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
I remember when Toledo police cars were black and white and Ottawa Hills police cars were green and white.
posted by Beowulf at 08:04 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
Car 54, where are you?
posted by Beowulf at 08:34 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
zxcvbnm - I have the highest regard for police officers. However, they have a proven track record for two things..
1. There are an extremely disproportionate number of authoritarian personalities in the helping professions. Simply because the abuser, when choosing a vocation, gravitates toward the best supply of victims. This is a fact and it is beyond dispute. Fellow officers also suffer at the hands of the abusers.
2. Police forces have traditionally done a remarkably poor job of 'policing' themselves. It's called the blue line, in case you didn't know. I do and if you'd like to discuss it further or branch out into the realtime ramifications and history of same - feel free to do so.
Good cops suffer from this systemic problem, just like the citizens.
posted by katie82640 at 08:52 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
And let me state that I would/do comply with any and all reasonable requests made by an officer. However - if any living human being snatches me by the hair, that person will STILL be telling that story when they're old.....
posted by katie82640 at 09:04 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
The Highway Patrol receives less training that Ottawa Hills Police Department. Ha! That's funny the FBI recruits out of the Highway Patrol and Highway patrol's physical standards are very similar to a Marine's. All law enforcement receive the necessary training.
WHY IS EVERYBODY SO SURE SHE WAS SPEEDING? The officer thought she was drunk too, he was later proven wrong.
Maybe she wasn't speeding, she sure didn't seem to think so. Here we have our own little prejudices and stereotypes going. Kind of interesting. Most of the people who have commented seem to agree that she was speeding. A white male officer says a black female was speeding, and that's considered a fact. Even after knowing the officer flipped out the way he did, physical abuse to a female. In front of her father? You believe that guy? Why? Because he's a cop? He doesn't seem like much of a cop to me. Maybe he made a mistake about her speeding, he sure as hell is capable of making a mistake.
Anyway Ottawa Hills dropped charges, probably because they knew her lawyer would have beaten the crap out of those charges
posted by Kmorgan at 04:18 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
Purnhrt wrote: What kind of thinking is that? It wasn't a 200 lb man, so how could you see that as a cause? It was a 120 lb black woman. Just stupid thinking!!!
First off. I'm not stupid. My thinking is not stupid so knock off the name calling. It does not advance your point and only makes you look bad.
Second. You seem to have blown right over the point. I would be more inclined to think this was a jerk off man roughing up a woman ( SEE it's a SEXIST thing) then a racial thing.
I was not the person to made the first reference to the 200lb man vs the 120lb woman. You've misquoted it.
I was responding to someone elses post.
posted by OhioKat at 05:13 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
Maybe the officer thought she was drunk because he couldn't understand her garbling ebonics?
phrases like "did you see dat", "ax me a question", "put dat camera away, I don't want my pidder taken", "I need medical help, call a bambalance", "get outta my grill", "oh no you just didint"
posted by tommy1 at 06:13 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
OHIOKAT
I was responding to your "see now I'd see that as a cause before anything else."
I knew you were quoting someone else. But what you said reflected faulty thinking, because it wasn't a 200 lb man! I did not say you were stupid just "stupid thinking." You can see anything except for the fact that this officer picked this woman to drag out of a car by her hair and slam to the ground like so much meat and you KNOW it would not happen to a similarily situated white woman! You as some others do not want to see the racism that we as black people feel 24/7. Sometimes we black people do not want to see it, because it is a shield that protects you. Well I know who I am and I know from whence I came, so I have no problem calling a spade a spade.
The more I read these posts the more it quantifies for me the racist attitude of the officer, I see it in all of these posts that refute racism as some type of "card" that we plack people can play at will.
Winnie Mandela recently said that "a black person's life is one of unending disruption and mistreatment suffered personally and by family members. I agree!!!!!
posted by purnhrt at 07:50 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
OhioKat
read the post by Tommy1. I put you all in the same boat. Where he has no problem with his racism, neither do you, as far as I can see. He is one extreme and you may be in the middle.
You may have had one bad experience with a black person but I have many bad experiences with white people on a daily basis. I just learned early on how to deal with it.
On the other hand just recently I have had positive experiences with white people and that gives me cause for hope for my children and my children's children. Until people in Toledo come to terms with the blantant racism that spouts from the mouths of many of it's citizens and takes steps to eliminate this poison, Toledo will never be a progressive city.
posted by purnhrt at 08:03 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
Winnie Mandela recently said that "a black person's life is one of unending disruption and mistreatment suffered personally and by family members. I agree!!!!!
Oh, sweet Jesus, you did not just quote Winnie Mandela did you>?????
Considering the woman was charged with the Kidnapping, torture and murder of a black ANC activist, and 63 odd counts of embezzlement of money from the ANC woman's league, she's hardly the person to be refering to when it comes to the mistreatment of black people, particularly when she's one of the more notorious one's that mistreat black people.
Hell, even her own husband divorced her as a result of this.
posted by WhiteAfricanAmerican at 08:52 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
I made that comment about a 200 lb man and I believe had the woman been a 200 lb white man things would have went a little differently. What do you think?
posted by Kmorgan at 09:19 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
Purnhrt wrote: read the post by Tommy1. I put you all in the same boat. Where he has no problem with his racism, neither do you, as far as I can see. He is one extreme and you may be in the middle
Interesting idea. It would be the pot calling the kettle black, no pun intended, if you don't admit to your own obvious racism.
Since you're puutting "us" all in the same boat I'd suggest you make sure you've got your sea legs on because you sir, are right there in that boat with us.
Personally I don't think that being tired of people playing the race card every time something bad happens to them makes me a racist.
Yes I do have some issues with some people of color who bitch and complain about the stereotype while they do everything possible to perpetuate that stereotype.
Why shouldn't that bother me?
Even the girls lawyer on the news tonight played down the race thing. He said first and formost we as citizens shouldn't be treated that way and he's right we shouldn't and if you bothered to notice I never once said the officer was jusitified in his reaction to her obvious insubordinate reaction.
The issue here is about how the police treat people during altercations and conversely how people treat the police, because face it. If she'd just taken the ticket and driven away none of us would have ever heard of this girl or this police officer.
None of the videos I've seen has had any audio on it so the truth is that no one except the people involved will ever really know what happened.
posted by OhioKat at 09:33 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
OhioKat
First of all she is not a girl! Second, if he had just given her a ticket and let her drive away, none of this would have happened. But as I said before there was 45 minutes or more of tape that you did not see that happened before she threw the ticket out of the window.
As you said none of us will really know what happened other then those involved, however, the officer did quit his job, the Ottawa Hills administrators said that he was wrong and he has appologized via the News to the family. He worked a sixteen hour day is his excuse. I work sixteen hour days many days and I don't throw little people around when they throw tantrums or just cry for no reason.
posted by purnhrt at 10:06 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 16, 2006 #
The younger generation just don't give a crap. No respect, no accountability. This is a perfect example of lack of respect.
You show your lack of respect with redneck statements like this:
Maybe the officer thought she was drunk because he couldn't understand her garbling ebonics?
phrases like "did you see dat", "ax me a question", "put dat camera away, I don't want my pidder taken", "I need medical help, call a bambalance", "get outta my grill", "oh no you just didint"
Damn, I hate rednecks.
posted by pink_slip at 12:00 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
purnhrt wrote: First of all she is not a girl! Second, if he had just given her a ticket and let her drive away, none of this would have happened.
Looks like a girl to me in the video, or are you trying to split some hair because I didn't call her a "woman".
Just keep in mind you're the one who referred to her in an earlier post as a a strong black buck.
You're cracking me up here.
It appeared to me that after handing her the ticket the officer was walking away from the car. Perhaps I am incorrect but it seemed to me that was/would have been the end of the situation until she tossed the ticket out of the window.
Hence my comment.
I think at this point the safest way to go is to agree that on some points you and I will be disagreeing and let it go because all this spliting hairs is giving me the frizzes.
posted by OhioKat at 06:44 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
ohiokat
I am sure you of all people are aware of the disrespect black adults feel about being called girl and boy by white people. It dates back to our slavery and is in our genetic memory, something that white people like to forget (slavery)
You and I will always disagree along racial lines and that is too bad but that is the state of Toledo.
posted by purnhrt at 08:24 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
Purnhrt, I hope you seek counseling. You obviously are filled with a lot of hate. YES – there are still some idiots out there that are racists, but you take every little word and turn it into some type of racial slur or attack. The last straw was freaking out because Ohiokat called her a girl. Do you honestly think she meant that as an insult? Come on already. Take a deep breathe and try to live without thinking everyone is out to get you.
posted by Ampage at 10:12 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
I think I’ve come up with some new ‘rules’ to prevent incidents like the Ottawa Hills Racially Motivated traffic stop and the Rodney King Racially Motivated Failure to Assume a Felony Stop Prone Position from repeating themselves. I’ll soon be emailing this to all Police Departments nationwide, the ACLU and the NAACP for their acceptance
To prevent reoccurrence of the Civil War, if the driver speaks with a Southern accent, the ticketing Officer, if he or his family did not live south of the Mason-Dixon line, will summon an Officer to the scene that does have roots south of said demarcation line.
Only traffic stops involving the same sex will be permitted. If Officer is male and driver/suspect is female, a female Officer will be called to the scene. Male Officer will have no contact with driver/suspect until such time as female Officer arrives.
If the driver/occupants appear to be of Asian decent, the drivers home country will be ascertained and an Officer from the same country will be called to the scene. Cambodian Officers will not ticket Vietnamese drivers; Chinese or Taiwan drivers will not be ticketed by Japanese Officers; Hawaiian Officers will not ticket Japanese drivers, etc.
All Officers shall identify the suspects religion. Once the suspects religion is identified, a responding Officer with the same beliefs will respond. In no instance shall a Methodist ticket a Baptist; no Presbyterian be ticketed by a Hindu; and no Muslim be ticketed by any Christian.
In the case of an Irish/British encounter, the driver’s political leanings will be ascertained in respect to whether he/she is an IRA supporter. If subject supports the IRA, then an Officer with similar political beliefs shall be called to the scene.
Pakistinians shall not be stopped by Indian* Officers, nor shall Indians* be stopped by Officers from Pakistan.
If an Officer identifies the driver/suspect as a cross dresser or transvestite, then an Officer having the same sexual preferences will be summoned to the scene, and only the Officer having the same traits may ticket or arrest the suspect.
Native American subjects will be matched with an Officer from the same Nation as the suspect. Shawnee’s shall not stop Cherokee’s; Choctaw’s shall not be stopped by the Lakota; Kickapoo shall not stop the Apache; etc. In no instance shall a Native be ticketed by a Anglo or by a Catholic, and an Anglo or Catholic shall not be stopped by a Native American.
If the driver is identified as an African American, the Officer, if not of African American decent AND if not of the same sex, will summon an African American Officer of the same sex.
If the driver and occupants can not be identified at the time of the traffic stop, due to darkness, weather conditions, etc., then all officers, from all nations, sexes, religious beliefs, color, height, weight, hair color and age will respond, and only those that have the same genetic makeup/color/lineage/sex will remain on scene.
In summation, all Officers will endeavor to match the suspect’s age, sex, race, religion, sexual preference and native country with an Officer of the same genetic makeup. If no match is available, suspect is to be released, no matter the seriousness of the charge(s) and the releasing Officer shall have no further contact, whether verbal or physical, with the released suspect.
IN ADDITION: ’Hot Pursuits’: Under no condition and no matter the seriousness of the crime committed, shall an Officer pursue fleeing vehicles, if said pursuit involve speeds exceeding 5 miles per hour over the posted speed limit. There have been far too many Officers losing their lives in these dangerous pursuits, and the public’s dissatisfaction with attempts to capture these criminals is at an all-time high, therefore, no further vehicular pursuits of any nature will be conducted in the future. It will be assumed that said driver of pursued vehicle will, in the future, conduct him or herself in a responsible manner and will obey all directives from Law Enforcement Officers during subsequent traffic stops.
*NOTE: Indians are identified by having roots in the country of India. These are NOT to be mistaken with Native Americans, which are often incorrectly referred to as 'Indians'.
(and to those posting that are feeling ‘victimized’ by the whites, do a little research into the plight of the Native American – how he has been repressed, victimized, crapped on, stole from and cheated – and still is – and then – and only then – talk to me about your ‘repression’!)
Well, I'm sure that once the various agencies around the country read and follow these 'new rules', there'll be a LOT less reason for any further repeats of 'racial profiling' or 'racially motivated take-downs' to occur! I think it's a SPLENDED way to solve the problem! It's just far too easy to educate the public on the proper etiquette during traffic stops or to advise people to appear in court and tell their side of the incident if they think they were ‘wronged’.
posted by Plantman at 11:17 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
1. Nick44 stated, "Ottawa Hills police officers are not exactly cream of the crop. I don't mean to insult these officers, but they don't have the same training and background as a State Highway Patrolman, or even TPD.
RESPONSE: This could not be further from the truth.
All the training in the world is not going to offset a poor attitude. The militant “them vs. us” attitude displayed by many police has been on the increase for years, both in the number of officers that adapt it as standard operating procedure and in the belligerent, dictatorial actions of police throughout the entire US. Officer Friendly is a fantasy, more so now than ever before. As you point out, civil service testing and quotas only makes this worse as unqualified candidates (reformed gang members, high school drop outs and other undesirables) are hired to fill various quotas and pacify special interest groups.
2. Ottawa Hills has a unique makeup for this area of Ohio. In the Cleveland area these types of suburban communities are not unique and are very common. Because it is a wealthy community everyone assumes they want to keep people out.
They do want to keep people out. Just look at gated communities, private drives and the attitude of OHPD. It’s been common knowledge for years that outsiders are not wanted in Ottawa Hills.
3. Furthermore, most of the suburban police agencies in Lucas County have their officer Deputized by the Sheriff so that there is never a question of jurisdictional issues.
Neatly getting around the intent of jurisdiction and authority.
4. I am biased towards our public servants and let me say this. Police Officers regardless of whether they are employed by Ottawa Hills, The City of Toledo, The City of Oregon or the University of Toledo are there for one thing, to keep you safe.
This is such fucking bullshit that I can’t believe it. You actually have the balls to write this crap? The job of the police is selective law enforcement. Selective, get it? That means that if a cop decides that the law doesn’t need to be enforced that day, for whatever arbitrary reason, the civilian gets a pass. It also means that if the pig doesn’t like you for any reason at all, the pig calls for his gang to send out a few more members to beat the living crap out of you and book you for resisting arrest. Oh, yeah, these are great people. Maybe you remember a few years back when a University cop shot and killed a co-ed. Of course, he gave her a running start first, and I guess he’d been working 16 hour days. Hell, down in Jacksonville, FL the police department was so corrupt that the DOJ had to appoint some outsiders to run the place for a while and clean house. Then there were the ‘heroes’ of New Orleans during Katrina.
This cop decided to pull someone over for speeding. He detained her for 45 minutes because he wanted to hassle someone. When she protested and gave him hell for it, he roughed her up. Let this racist SOB sit in the slammer for a few years and see how he gets along with his new room mate, Big Wille Johnson.
Cops. Always right, always throwing their weight around, always calling for backup. If the entire police force was eliminated today, I think we’d get along just fine. At least I know I would. We need the fire department, we need ambulance and paramedics, but cops? No. Fuck no.
posted by madjack at 11:33 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
Plantman - as the descendant of a Blackfoot Indian I can tell you that we 'officially' prefer to be called Americans. Thanks for your concern. If you want to string the heritage of all of my forefathers together - well you'll be at it a while. You may want to reference the term 'melting pot'.
I'm at a loss here. If I was misinformed - then I was but I have been told many times that Ottowa Hills is notorious for racial profiling and their traffic stops.
Here is the follow up to this story and the excerpt below. Obviously the officials in Ottawa Hills feel that something wrong happened at that stop.
Ottawa Hills officials yesterday apologized and dismissed all charges against a Toledo woman who was pulled from her car, wrestled to the ground, and handcuffed during a confrontation with a village police officer over a speeding ticket.
In a brief, typed statement, the village also said the officer's reaction to the "confrontational situation" with Latoya Brown "was wrong."
So what was all this about here?
posted by katie82640 at 11:55 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
Madjack:"If the entire police force was eliminated today, I think we’d get along just fine.
From here on out, if you are a victim of some crime - ANY crime, whether it be theft of property; physical abuse including battery; involved in a traffic accident of which you were not the cause; victim of loud/obnoxious behavior that cause you to loose sleep or otherwise disturbs or interrupts your family's general peace; or have ANY complaint that may be rectified by involving your local Police Department or any other Law Enforcement Agency, I know that with your complete and utter disgust of Police Officers, you WILL NOT bother to make a call to them.
(Me thinks the more 'nefarious' folks in the audience may 'target' this individual, as he/she will make no complaint or take any legal action against unlawful behavior against him or his family!)
Katie82640: I can tell you that we 'officially' prefer to be called Americans. You are (somewhat) correct.
The term Native American was originally introduced by anthropologists as a more accurate term for the indigenous people of the Americas, as distinguished from the people of India. Because of the widespread acceptance of this newer term in and outside of academic circles, some people believe that Indians was outdated or offensive.
Some American Indians have misgivings about the term Native American. Russell Means, an American Indian activist, opposes the term Native American because he believes it was imposed by the government without the consent of American Indians. Some American Indians question the term Native American because, they argue, it serves to ease the conscience of "white America" with regard to past injustices done to American Indians by effectively eliminating "Indians" from the present. Still others argue that Native American is problematic because "native of" literally means "born in, " so any person born in the Americas could be considered "native".
A recent survey revealed that more American Indians in the United States still preferred American Indian to Native American. Nonetheless, most American Indians are comfortable with Indian, American Indian, and Native American, and the terms are now used interchangeably.
I am from the Tsa-La-Gi Nation (known to many as Cherokee). Although I reject the Indian label, to me, American Indian, or Native American is fine.
If I offended, I offer my apology.
Do Hi Ye (Tsa-La-Gi - 'Peace')
posted by Plantman at 01:00 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
then I was but I have been told many times that Ottowa Hills is notorious for racial profiling and their traffic stops.
Katie, its not only racially profiling they do but economic profiling as well. drive through ottawa hills in a beat up old heap and you will also get followed/pulled over etc.. it happened to me once when i was driving through, we didnt get pulled over but we were followed through-out or little journey.
posted by tm at 01:08 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
Again Plantman - you are no authority to comment on what I do and do not prefer.
I respond to you in the ancient language which you managed to butcher quite well: "/h ql usT gO/sz uET"
Which means for one who knows little you speak alot.
posted by katie82640 at 01:13 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
Regardless, of race/gender/age.. whatever. being manhandled for throwing a ticket out of a window is just wrong! the offcer should just have left it alone and when the due date for the ticket came up, she would have been issued a bench warrant and it would have been on her. but that cop had no reason to touch that woman.
posted by tm at 01:14 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
I hadn't been told that part tm - but I'll remember this :-)
posted by katie82640 at 01:15 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
I'll reserve all comment on being 'put in my place'
posted by Plantman at 01:59 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
Okay, I lied!
Katie, I believe you said "I can tell you that we (emphasis mine) 'officially' prefer to be called Americans" and you berated me by saying "you are no authority to comment on what I do and do not prefer.
Ummm....isn't that just what you did by saying "WE 'officially' prefer to be called Americans"?
Surely not my intent on starting an 'inter-tribal' pissing match here.
My comments on this subject have ended, and with that, again I say Do Hi Ye
posted by Plantman at 02:14 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
From here on out, if you are a victim of some crime
Where did you ever get the idea that police can protect anyone from crime? They can't. They know it, and they deny it all the time. If the rest of the civilians found out that the police really couldn't protect them from the criminals, someone might begin to rethink the role of the police department. Just go and talk to the abused wife about dialing 9-1-1, about restraining orders, charges against her abusive soon to be ex-husband and jail time. Talk to 7-11 clerks about the night shift, robberies and cameras. Cameras, for Lord's sake, as if that's going to help you when you're confronted by a gang-banger at three in the morning.
Whatever you do, don't take the law into your own hands! Don't defend yourself, don't take responsibility for your own welfare and safety. Just dial 9-1-1, and wait for Officer Friendly and his crew of crime busters to arrive. Of course, the police are under no obligation to respond at all, and are not liable for your personal safety, but those are just technicalities.
I watched a good friend of mine go the law and order route with a problem neighbor. The ass hat was making a racket in the morning at six AM, every morning, right outside the bedroom window. He made threats against my buddy, harassing him and his woman every chance the ass hat got. Ass hat tried to kill their dog a couple times, and then Ass hat even called the health department, claiming that my buddy’s lawn was never mown. So one day after a nasty confrontation, my buddy calls officer friendly, who shows up with two other squad cars, and you’ll never guess what. It turns out that officer friendly is good friends with the ass hat. They all stood around, laughing and shaking hands. A real old home week. So nothing much got done.
I remember listening to a tape recording of a 9-1-1 call. The psycho soon to be ex-husband was out of jail (Imagine that!) and, despite a restraining order, was breaking into the wife’s home through the front window. The woman is urging the police to hurry, and as I remember it, her final words were, “Oh my God! He’s got a gun!”
No survivors.
There’s your fucking police. There’s your fucking protection from crime.
I’m on my own, and I know that. So are the rest of us, know it or not. But the way things are now we not only have to defend ourselves from the regular criminal, but we also have to defend ourselves from the police. Now I’m white, middle aged (quiet, McCaskey) and middle class male. I’m generally beneath the cop’s radar, and police are routinely rude to me. I can’t for the life of me imagine what a black man or woman must go through, just trying to get to and from work every day.
And that just isn’t right.
posted by madjack at 02:40 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
I respond to you in the ancient language which you managed to butcher quite well: "/h ql usT gO/sz uET"
Hey, Katie, wanna play cowboys and Indians?
posted by madjack at 02:42 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
well now that you mention it :-) (batting her eyes while looking for her war paint)
Alot may not know that Indian dialects are next to impossible to translate into english characters. And there are many dialects.
m4hyr to you also plantman. It is el7.
(Looks more like you're playing battle ship :-)
posted by katie82640 at 03:20 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
Interesting story madjack:
I remember listening to a tape recording of a 9-1-1 call.
The psycho soon to be ex-husband was out of jail (Imagine that!) The police let him out, or the courts??
and, despite a restraining order, was breaking into the wife’s home through the front window.
Police fault?
The woman is urging the police to hurry, and as I remember it, her final words were, “Oh my God! He’s got a gun!” Umm... Just how fast do you expect them to get there??
No survivors.
There’s your fucking police. There’s your fucking protection from crime. In a perfect world that you run - how would you have your police do things differently?
posted by billy at 05:53 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
A fascinating October 17, 2006 Toledo Journal story titled Attack by a cop. Since the TJ's stories vanish after a week or two because of their lame content management system, I've excerpted heavily from the story for future reference. But you'll have to read the TJ soon for the full story, which is long. I added bolding to part of one sentence.
---- TJ story start ----
"African American woman brutalized
after tossing paper from her car window."
"Latoya Brown has had police officers hand her speeding tickets before. But she never had a cop yank her out of the car, throw her against the side of her vehicle, then grab her by the hair and hurl her to the pavement."
"In an incident Ottawa Hills officials are now trying to sweep under the rug, Ms. Brown, 24, was the victim of assault-by-cop after being pulled over for allegedly speeding. It’s not just her saying so. The videotape from the cop’s own dashboard camera recorded the violence."
"The police officer, Mark Deters, was allowed to resign nine days after the Sept. 17 assault. That means his personnel file remains “clean” and that he might be able to land a job as a gun-toting cop with another police department."
"In an interview this week, Marc Thompson, administrator for the Village of Ottawa Hills, dodged questions about the absence of disciplinary measures against Deters while he was still in the village’s employ."
"The administrator didn’t dispute that Ottawa Hills’ police chief, Robert Overmeyer, viewed the videotape soon after the assault, nor that other village officials also had watched the tape. But he refused to answer why village officials didn’t act sooner, lending credibility to suspicions that Ottawa Hills wanted to go easy on Deters and hope that an African American woman’s complaint against a Caucasian law enforcement officer would be ignored or, preferably in the village’s view, never heard about."
"Asked a third time about the nine-day period between the incident and Deters’ resignation, Mr. Thompson again tried to wash Ottawa Hills’ hands of the matter."
"Mr. Thompson also refused to allow the village’s police chief to talk to The Journal.
Told it was very unusual for a police chief not to want to speak about a serious incident or to be ordered not to speak to the press, Mr. Thompson replied, “I’m speaking on the record.” "
"Ms. Brown’s attorney, Richard Mitchell, said he is investigating Deters’ other conduct as an Ottawa Hills cop. He said several people – white and black, residents of Ottawa Hills and of Toledo – have called him with claims that they, too, were abused by Deters."
"Told about Mr. Mitchell’s claims, Mr. Thompson answered, “Who are these people?” Mr. Mitchell said he did not have the callers’ consent to give their names but that some have indicated they would be willing to speak publicly later."
"Mr. Mitchell said the ex-officer’s alleged pattern of behavior indicates abuse extended to all ethnicities but that on Sept. 17, Ms. Brown’s race played a role."
"Ms. Brown had driven four 13-year-olds to Detroit for a youth-oriented musical concert. She returned to Toledo to drop off the children, the last stop at a house where her father, Charles Brown, had spent time relaxing and having drinks with relatives and friends."
"Ms. Brown was driving her father to his home when Deters came upon her on Secor Road, just north of Dorr Street as she was driving north, nearer to Toledo than to the Ottawa Hills boundary. “She was my designated driver that night,” Mr. Brown said. “I do what MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Drivers) says to do and this happens.” "
"In his report, Deters said he smelled alcohol after pulling over Ms. Brown’s SUV, which she co-owns with her mother. She insisted she had not been drinking but the ex-cop put her through a battery of tests, including watching his moving finger while keeping her head still, standing on one leg, reciting the middle letters of the alphabet and counting backward from 67 to 43. He administered the tests repeatedly, she said."
"Ms. Brown also took a breathalyzer test that showed she had no alcohol in her bloodstream. But she noticed the ex-cop become angry when, on the counting-back test, she stopped at 47. “That’s when he got irritated. He said, ‘What did I tell you to count to?’” Ms. Brown said. “I said, ‘I thought you said 47, I’m not sure.’” "
"Deters might have been upset that he didn’t have a DUI collar. A winner of a MADD award for arresting supposedly drunk drivers, he was monitoring traffic at about 1 a.m. on Secor, a time and location where cops feel free to pull over drivers on “suspicion.” "
"Touching off Deters’ rage, from a review of the video, was Ms. Brown tossing the speeding citation out her window. The ex-cop had flung the speeding ticket into her vehicle."
"Ms. Brown, who had gone through about a half-hour of tests for drunkenness, said she had become irritated herself when she saw the citation land between the seats. “The way I was thinking was he had held me up for so long doing all these field sobriety tests when I insisted I hadn’t been drinking from the initial stop,” she said. “I picked it up and threw it out and I said, ‘Don’t throw anything in my car.’” "
"Deters immediately turned violent. “He just immediately opened the door and grabbed my arm,” Ms. Brown said. “He twisted it and pulled me out and I was screaming ‘Get off of me!’” The video shows Deters slamming the woman against the side of the SUV. “At that point, when I didn’t fall, he grabbed the back of my hair because now I was facing backwards,” she said. “He just grabbed the back of my hair and kind of threw me down. At that point he put his knee into my back and pulled my arms behind my back to arrest me.” "
"Her father exited the SUV but stood away from Deters while the ex-cop brutalized his daughter. “I was scared to death,” Mr. Brown said. “I was fearing he was going to hurt her. And when I got out, telling him ‘don’t do that, don’t do that,’ he did like this (Mr. Brown made a motion of a cop reaching for his weapon) and I got afraid for my life. “I was afraid for my life and her life,” Mr. Brown said."
"Ms. Brown’s father is the president of the education advocacy group African American Parents Association. He is also a former Mississippi state police trooper and security officer."
"His daughter said she was less afraid for herself than for her dad. “He was saying, ‘You don’t have to do her like that,’” she said. “I was screaming at my dad from the ground, ‘Just please get back in the car.’” Deters eventually tossed both father and daughter in the back of his patrol car. The ex-cop read her the Miranda rights, she said."
"Important to this incident, neither the Browns nor their attorney sought publicity when the encounter with Deters happened a month ago. Mr. Mitchell said he had begun private discussions with Ottawa Hills officials about police misconduct. When word got out that Deters had resigned Sept. 26 “for family reasons,” he began getting calls alleging previous abuse by the Ottawa Hills Police Department."
"Some of the calls, Mr. Mitchell said, were from residents of Ottawa Hills – a self-governing community of mostly white, affluent people – complaining that a police officer’s actions had again smeared them as being a racist enclave."
"Toledo’s TV stations also got citizen calls and at their insistence the village administrator provided them copies of the tape. The city’s daily newspaper, the Toledo Blade, tried to quickly follow up the TV news reports and headlined a story in its Oct. 13 edition as “Ottawa Hills apologizes for conduct of an officer.” Mr. Mitchell said neither he, Ms. Brown nor her parents sought publicity prior to TV news breaking the story."
"The reporting by white-owned media has troubled Ms. Brown and her lawyer, however. They said Ottawa Hills used the media to spin the story in its favor: Deters is gone, all is well."
"The Blade, in its story’s first paragraph, told readers that the village had “dismissed all charges” against the woman, including a littering charge Deters filed over the tossed speeding ticket. One TV news reporter told viewers about Ms. Brown’s “rap sheet” at Municipal Court."
"Ms. Brown said she has traffic citations, but nothing else, on her court record. “I don’t have a rap sheet,” she said. “When you hear ‘rap sheet,’ you think of armed robbery, you think of murder or serious crime. The worst thing I’ve done is speeding. They tried to portray me as a bad person and I’m not.” "
"Mr. Mitchell said it was interesting that white-owned media didn’t inquire about Ms. Brown or her parents. Her mother, Delois President, is in charge of the adoptions office for Lucas County Children Services. Latoya Brown, he noted, is a graduate of Maumee Valley Country Day School, holds a bachelor’s in psychology, is working toward a master’s in mental health counseling, and is presently employed as a therapeutic program worker for the Northwest Ohio Developmental Center."
"After TV news and the Blade reported the story, Toledo’s conservative radio station took up the story. Callers to the radio station insisted that the black woman somehow must have provoked the ex-cop. “I think some of the (news) outlets have been trying to paint a picture of her as being some uneducated young black woman who wants to get in a cop’s face,” Mr. Mitchell said. “Calling a few traffic tickets a ‘rap sheet,’ that’s terrible, that’s irresponsible. That’s trying to spin a negative image about her.” "
"More disturbing has been the spin effort by Ottawa Hills, he said. Village Administrator Thompson released a statement that attempts to exonerate the village from responsibility for having employed Deters. Ms. Brown said she was never called by any Ottawa Hills official expressing regret or offering an apology. No one at Ottawa Hills called her to say Deters’ charges had been dismissed, she said."
"Mr. Mitchell said the village’s use of the words “unfortunate” and “react” suggest that it wants the public to believe Ms. Brown caused Deters’ violence. More troubling, the attorney said, is Ottawa Hills’ unilateral claim that Ms. Brown “was not injured in any way.” Rather than an expression of concern for the victim, the statement was a pre-emptive move by the village to try to shield itself from liability in a potential lawsuit."
"Why the police chief in Ottawa Hills would not talk to, or was instructed not to talk to, The Journal regarding Deters is unclear. But comments from Ms. Brown’s father indicate Chief Overmeyer wanted the matter resolved quietly and, apparently, with Deters remaining a member of his force."
"Mr. Brown told The Journal that after he and his daughter were placed in Deters’ cruiser, another officer was called to take him home while the SUV was towed away. He said that once at home, he called village hall repeatedly to ask about the whereabouts of his daughter.
“They finally said, ‘Mr. Brown, don’t call here anymore,’” he said."
"His daughter spent about three hours at the Ottawa Hills police station, then was handcuffed again and taken to the county jail downtown. She was booked, incarcerated but was released later that morning."
"Mr. Brown said he received a “courtesy call” from Chief Overmeyer that morning, at about 9 a.m. on Monday, Sept. 18. He said the chief told him that “everything was OK, that protocol was followed” by Deters."
"He said he asked the chief if he had seen the videotape. He said the chief said he had not but that another officer told him that Deters had gone by the book. He said he told Chief Overmeyer to “please look” at the tape. He said the chief called him later and told him he had seen the tape and was “so appalled” by Deters’ behavior that he “didn’t want to continue watching it.” Chief Overmeyer possibly is reluctant to talk because he is aware of what Mr. Brown would relate to The Journal regarding their subsequent conversations."
" “He gave me his private number and told me to call him and he said ‘let’s try to work this out,’” Mr. Brown said. “He said, ‘let’s me and you look at this tape and we’ll drop the charges.’ He told me, ‘we need to get this straightened out.’” Mr. Brown said the chief told him he’d give Deters “a few days off” as punishment and asked him to persuade his daughter to sign a release stating she wouldn’t take legal action."
"Ms. Brown said she attempted to file a complaint against Deters after retrieving her vehicle from the impound lot. She was denied, she said. She got Chief Overmeyer on the phone later, but the chief hung up on her after she made requests for public information, she said."
"The Toledo Blade’s story, meanwhile, cast Ms. Brown in a bad light. It said Ms. Brown told Deters that he was “going down” and that “you’re probably a Republican.” The newspaper said she was verbally abusive while Deters “restrained” her. Ms. Brown doesn’t deny calling Deters a Republican but that she didn’t retaliate verbally until Deters had pulled her from the car and thrown her to the pavement."
---- TJ story end ----
Good story. Provides info that I've not seen or heard elsewhere. I think it proves that a community cannot have too many weekly papers. The more media outlets for the public, the better.
posted by jr at 06:02 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
Attorney Logic 101?
Ms. Brown’s attorney states that "...both white and black citizens claim they were abused by Ofc. Deters."
Brown’s attorney also states “I think that officer engages in excessive force, and I don’t think this is the first time, and I don’t think it is reserved just for African Americans."
and
“ the ex-officer’s alleged pattern of behavior indicates abuse extended to all ethnicities…"
But he then states “ Ms. Brown’s race played a role."
and
“…I do believe on that night this may have had something to do with race.”
His reasoning? I quote:
“She did not act like she was afraid of him. He got an attitude from her failing to show fear.” “He just went and attacked her. And I think that he felt he didn’t have somebody that was important that night. And that does have racial implications.”
"Failing to show fear and ‘not being important’ is indicative of 'racial implications'???
The attorney's comment:
“…I do believe on that night this may have had something to do with race.” surely indicates he's not strong in his conviction! Rest assured, this suit will be a waste of time and Brown's money!
(Yup, ya fumbled that one, Attorney Mitchell! Now, concentrate on trying to 'recover' from over-running your mouth!)
Attorney Logic 101!
posted by Plantman at 09:04 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
Do you mean to imply that somehow if one is a racist that they can NOT be - oh say sexist also?
Is there a rule that if one IS in fact biased against one class, by definition this rules out or makes them an unlikely candidate to hold other bias'(prejudices)?
Is there a rule...say in the Heman Woman Hater Club that says no racists allowed? Or is there a secret handshake in the KKK that says no misogynists can join? I don't really know how these things work.....maybe you can explain?
posted by katie82640 at 09:44 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 17, 2006 #
Now I’m white, middle aged (quiet, McCaskey)---Madjack
You're an over-the-hill old codger, and everyone knows it.
This thing's a no-brainer. A cop overstepped the line in his use of force--badly--in a situation that didn't require such a reaction.
He's no longer on the OH police force. There's a reason for that. Because he fucked up. That's all folks.
posted by McCaskey at 12:20 A.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
In a perfect world that you run - how would you have your police do things differently?
I'd have the police admit that the police department, as a whole or in part, is unable to protect the citizens, both as individuals and as a group. I'd want them to declare this regularly. I also want the public to know that the police have no legal, binding responsibility to protect the public. The police are not required to come when you dial 9-1-1. You, the individual citizen, are responsible for your own safety.
That's not what's happening now. The right to defend yourself is being eroded. Citizens not only have to worry about protecting themselves against criminals, but they also have to protect themselves against the police - the very people who insist that they, the police department, are the only solution to criminal activity of any and all sorts.
In the scenario I cited, the victim could have unlimbered a shotgun and let the perpetrator have it with a few loads of 00 buckshot, the let her family watch as she is handcuffed and taken to jail for defending herself against a murderous psychopath.
posted by madjack at 09:45 A.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
is there a secret handshake in the KKK
Actually, yes, there is a secret handshake. No, I'm not kidding.
Thanks for posting the TJ article, JR. I'm wondering that since the tip of the iceberg has been found, what kind of action will be taken to make sure this behavior stops? Probably none, but I can always hope.
posted by madjack at 09:55 A.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
"After TV news and the Blade reported the story, Toledo’s conservative radio station took up the story. Callers to the radio station insisted that the black woman somehow must have provoked the ex-cop
I for one am simply shocked beyond believe that the balanced, level-headed listeners of WSPD (what other station could it be?) reacted in such a fashion. Probably egged on by the moron who hosts the 3-6 afternoon slot.
posted by McCaskey at 12:12 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
Madjack wrote:I also want the public to know that the police have no legal, binding responsibility to protect the public. The police are not required to come when you dial 9-1-1. You, the individual citizen, are responsible for your own safety.
Interesting.
So what exactally is their job then if not to protect the public? Why do we have 9-1-1 if they don't have to respond to it?
posted by OhioKat at 12:54 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
what kind of action will be taken to make sure this behavior stops? <---madjack
There are some thoughts underway. Email me.
posted by katie82640 at 01:41 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
So what exactally is their job then if not to protect the public?
Selective law enforcement. Unless you're dealing with a peace officer, which is much different. The primary responsibility of the peace officer is to keep the peace, not enforce the law.
Why do we have 9-1-1 if they don't have to respond to it?
Who else responds to 911? Fire and rescue. The police are under no obligation to respond to 9-1-1 calls, nor are they legally obliged to enforce the law. The law, as the officer on the scene understands it, is enforced at the individual officer’s (and his watch commander’s) discretion.
Look, you don't have to take my word for this. Go find out for yourself.
posted by madjack at 03:34 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
Racial question of the day: With all the Italians, Germans, Irish, Russian, Jewish, Arabs, etc, in the U.S., why is the only word that is consistantly shyed away from the notorious "N" word?
Nothing is more confusing to me than the "black" awards, the "black" movie awards, the "black" music awards. What an outrage would occur if there was the "white" movie awards. I am white and proud. I am not a racist. If you are an idiot and act like an idiot, I'll call you one. I just can't believe the publice outcry against the word "nigger" when I consistantly hear it used by black people and some white people. It is the only word that has been referred to by it's first letter only on cable tv. I have heard every other word completely in some way, shape or form. But, don't ever use the "n" word. Even the dredded "f" word is used with some regularity on cable tv.
Someone explain that to me.
posted by tommy1 at 04:56 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
"With all the Italians, Germans, Irish ..."
Made me think of the Jack Woltz character in The Godfather:
"I don't care how many dago guinea wop greaseball goombahs come out of the woodwork."
"Well, let me tell you something, my kraut, mick friend."
posted by jr at 05:20 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
Tommy1 look at how black people have been treated in our country. To this day discriminated against. Some people say well the blacks today weren't slaves. Like we owe them nothing. Let me ask you. How would you like it if you grew up with a bunch of white people who can say their ancestors were wealthy land owners, knowing your ancestors were their slaves. Then hearing about the way your greatgrandfather and grandfather were treated in the early years following slavery and hearing from your dad about how he had to fight for equal rights. We can go on and on describing the horrible ways blacks were treated and even up through the present there are still people like you who are just going to keep this racial thing alive. I don't know if I agree with billions of dollars for reparations but at the least, I'd say we owe them respect by not using the n word.
posted by Kmorgan at 09:02 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
Tommy I can only tell you the way my Dad told me. Long time ago.
If you believe that words can have power - that prayers have power, that words can convey love or hate - then know this. There are words that have been used over time to convince the world that a certain privileged population had a right to own other people, just like a pair of shoes. This word carried the philosophy that this selected class was somehow elite and entitled to take, by force, other people's possessions, their rights and their persons.
The word that you refer to embodies a belief system that allowed some of the most horrific crimes against humanity, and right here on American soil. People diminished the value of other people by using that word. And it became a business transaction to take a baby from its own mother to be sold at auction like livestock. It became ok to use people like animals and sell families off into parts, never to see each other again. It became ok for humans to die in a yoke like farm animals.
That is, indeed, a powerful word. It is not all right to use it and excepting making sure to pass this history to our children - to explain the true nightmare of the event that is so aptly wrapped up in that filthy epithet, so they can safeguard that it will never happen again - that's a word that cannot be tolerated by civilized humans.
posted by katie82640 at 09:50 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
Tommy1 has made a good point though. If an awards show popped up promoted as "white movies" awards or the "white" entertainment channel was available then you can be assured that there would be a huge outrage from the black community calling it racist.
The whole arguement saying that its ok for the black community to be racist because of past transgressions is wearing thin.
My question is, what is the difference between racial pride and racism? and why is it racial pride when a black person does it and racism when it's a white person?
You can't have it both ways. That just keeps the whole thing going.
Racism is an ugly thing, but it won't go away until it goes away for ALL of us.
As for the N word, I agree with Katie about the power of words. I think the black community would do its self a great service if they stopped using it and glorifing the whole "niggaz" gangster rap crap.
I don't think its realistic to walk around calling yourself something and then get mad because someone else calls you that.
posted by OhioKat at 10:14 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
No good points. I know deters. Bad cop. Not racially motivated. Just bad cop. Simple as that. Deters doesn't think.
posted by junta330 at 10:53 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
I am highly suspicious of the incident solely because Ottawa Hills has SUCH a reputation for racial profiling and rousting on traffic stops.
And I don't believe in coincidence....
If I had been stopped, and black, and held up for that protracted length of time and tested and retested at a zzzzzzero alcohol level and THEN got a speeding ticket - and it was in Ottawa Hills....I gotta' tell you I'd think it was racial.
Maybe that's just me...
posted by katie82640 at 11:05 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 18, 2006 #
{sigh} Kate, tolerance is how we obtain the liberty that produces our civilization. As for words like cunt, nigger and Kike, they are only words, and you can elect to stop listening. This is not passing history onto our children -- it's passing the deep philosophical justfication of our culture onto them.
Remember, speech that people find offensive is the speech that should have our strongest attention for it's right to be spoken. The "nice" speech that people like is something that never tests the right.
posted by GuestZero at 01:21 A.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
We set the bar for our own behavior and we, as a People, have decided our liberties.
The Revoluntionary and Civil wars are both bloody testaments to the price it costs to obtain and retain an ideal.
Free speech, and the expression of such is a right protected here. It does not mean we are obligated to accept hate speech.
It also doesn't mean there will not be repercussions to employing your right. There often are.
That reminds me of a kid who called a girl a very nasty name when we were at the Tastee Freeze for lunch in high school. I suppose he was talking tough for his friends. We DID have government class at the time. She turned around and punched him in the mouth. Shocked me.
He said he could 'say whatever he wanted to'. She said - I didn't stop you - I just responded to you.
posted by katie82640 at 08:13 A.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
Katie82640 tommy1 Good point?? If whites had their own channels and award ceremonies, the blacks would outrage. Not exactly, some would some wouldn't, saying the whole black community would outrage, now that's racism. There would be some who wouldn't care kind of like me I don't care that there are black channels and award ceremonies and there would be some people like you who would bitch and say that's not fair. Kind of like your doing about the black ceremonies and channels. Anyway have you ever heard of CMT
posted by Kmorgan at 08:17 A.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
kmorgan I didn't think I had commented about channels or award ceremonies?
posted by katie82640 at 09:24 A.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
(GZ - note, I find that I'm not all that tolerant anymore :-)
posted by katie82640 at 09:25 A.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
Whites do have their own channels and awards. It's called country music.
posted by pink_slip at 09:42 A.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
As a child, I was taught that sticks and stones can break bones, but names will never hurt. Apparently as an adult, I am being taught that with a single word, I can throw an entire segment of history into another's face. Was every black person a slave? NO. Was every white person a slave owner? NO. But some of you are posting that I should not use "nigger" because of what it refers to.
On one hand it's good to have us all joined in unity as one. Celebrating the good, and working through the bad together. On the other hand, let's have the BET network, the Black Movie Awards, The Black Music Awards, Black history month. I have a hard time trying to understand. Can't we have these things as one also?????? I'm not against it, but I too am race proud. I didn't own slaves, I don't agree with slavery, and as far as I've found none of my ancestors had or supported slavery. I find it ironic that I've read that black people sold their own as slaves.
Slavery, racism, etc, are subjects and parts of history no one should be proud of. We could all learn about history and grow together. Why must I take separate classes to learn about black history????
Wouldn't the best advice and example be to treat all as equal. If not, only hold the person or persons responsible, not everyone as a whole.
PS-CMT or country music station is based on music, not race. And I'm not one, but redneck isn't a race.
posted by tommy1 at 10:06 A.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
Kate said: "Free speech, and the expression of such is a right protected here. It does not mean we are obligated to accept hate speech."
Wrong, for exactly the reasons I stated. As soon as you start qualifying speech rights by how much you don't like it, everyone loses the right to speak, since everyone pisses off somebody our there (probably like I'm doing right now). You MUST tolerate rights you don't like, since it's only by such tolerance that we even have such rights in the first place (and regardless of which wars were fought over them ... since rights are largely lost during peacetime).
Kate, please purge the 1990s from this topic. Your ideas about this were discredited long ago. There is no such thing as "hate speech" -- it was just a construct of political correctness, and the blowback from PC is still growing.
Literally, the more you insist that "hate speech" is wrong and that some sort of actions be taken against it, the more likely the, say, "American Anti-Nigger Party" will be founded in, say, Kansas City, and it will just grow. People really don't like being told how to think, and that goes doubly for when they are told how to speak and (peaceably) act when otherwise such speech and actions are well within the radius of the center of their rights under the law.
Kate said: "It also doesn't mean there will not be repercussions to employing your right. There often are."
If those repercussions involve censorship, then they are morally (possible legally) wrong. If those repercussions involve assault, then they are additionally strongly morally and legally wrong.
The consequences of saying hateful/whatever speech is that people will stop listening, and/or speech against such things will rise. Those are the only consequences our society should countenance, since doing otherwise is a breach of our most basic philosophies. Speech should be fought with more speech ... from the increasing interaction the audience will decide.
Kate said: "GZ - note, I find that I'm not all that tolerant anymore[.]"
There's a lot of that going around. I've lost quite a bit of that too, but it still doesn't mean that I'm going to go around censoring folks. As my tolerance escapes, I become far more cranky, or I leave. Either I fight with more speech, or I stop listening. What do YOU do?
posted by GuestZero at 12:26 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
Hey, Tommy1, when you post garbage like this:
Maybe the officer thought she was drunk because he couldn't understand her garbling ebonics?
phrases like "did you see dat", "ax me a question", "put dat camera away, I don't want my pidder taken", "I need medical help, call a bambalance", "get outta my grill", "oh no you just didint"
everyone else on this site knows, or should know, where you're coming from. Spare us your lame attempt to honestly debate racial issues.
posted by McCaskey at 12:40 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
"Whites do have their own channels and awards. It's called country music. "
That a bullshit comment, because I am white and you couldn't pay me enough to sit through and listen to that Horseshit redneck music!LOL!
posted by buckeye277 at 01:10 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
:-) buckeye you have a point.
GZ - it depends on where I am. If I'm at home and something truly offensive (not something I disagree with - but really awful) happens, I'd try to discuss and I'd state the rulz of my house. We only have a couple but they aren't negotiable and I own the house. I worked a long time to be able to say that. We don't have any abusive behavior in the house or on the property. None. Nada -
If I'm out - by myself and I don't think there's any merit in a conversation, I'd leave. If I'm out and with my family, I'd ask for it to stop - if it didn't stop I would leave, vocalizing my OWN opinion on the way out the door. :-)
Life's full of choices. People have a right to say what they will - that obligates me in NO WAY WHATSOEVER to listen to them.
posted by katie82640 at 01:30 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
Words: As an academic, I suppose I am a bit of a minority (no pun intended) when compared to my more politically correct colleagues in that I accept free speech doctrine as unconditional not only when it’s convenient, save for my own interpretation of what is moral, hurtful, and appropriate.
GZ: I can’t remember the last time I heard those three words in one sentence!!! Anyhow, I largely agree philosophically. I also believe anyone that uses the word "nigger" is a moron. I have been moronic. But lately, such terms as “nigger” have come to be ordinary and sometime honorific, as in calling a friend “my nigger” or the softened “nigga”.
Purnhrt wrote of the objectionable use of “boy” to a Black male. True, I hear, but “girl”? I doubt the seasoned campaigner and dedicated advocate that Purnhrt is would harbor too hard a grudge for borrowing the phrases “you go girl” or “girlfriend” which have become commonplace if not passé.
Because I support free speech I need to accept the consequences of my convictions and, be self-responsible to be non-offensive (or not) and if you don’t like my posture on so-called hate speech, I must be willing to hear you call me a “hater”.
posted by Offshore at 01:52 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
Pink_Slip Whites do have their own channels and awards. It's called country music.
Well, I'll give you that maybe country music fans are more white then black but it's still apples to oranges because they don't call it the White Country Music Awards.
posted by OhioKat at 07:24 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
I've come to the conclusion after reading this entire thread that the varying opinions here demonstrate exactly what the problem is: perspective. We don't see things the same way and we never will, unless some sort of miracle puts us in the other person's shoes.
posted by valbee at 09:31 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
Is anyone, including the news media, aware that Ms. Brown was served with 7 bad check charges shortly after the Ottawa Hills PD 'incident'?
While not integral to her case, it certainly does 'speak volumes' of her character!
(Or does the news media know this and, being notoriously 'anti-police', not publish it for fear of the jury 'remembering' it during the court trial?)
posted by Plantman at 04:30 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
That's a good point Plantsmokingman, I could've swore I saw her character getting thrown to the ground.
posted by pink_slip at 05:46 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
"... aware that Ms. Brown was served with 7 bad check charges ..."
Where's the web link to that piece of info? How do you know this?
posted by jr at 06:16 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
Why on earth would a woman who was treated so badly at a traffic stop be villified like this?
This is not a public figure...this is a private citizen.
posted by katie82640 at 08:37 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
I once bounced several checks in a row. Two of them were checks I wrote. The rest were checks that a "friend" stole out of my home unbeknownst to me. Egads. I'm a horrible person. I trusted someone I thought I knew. I should burn in hell.
posted by valbee at 09:58 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
Oh valbee - stay out of Ottawa Hills!!!!!
posted by katie82640 at 10:17 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
Seriously Plantman, what's the source of the info in your last comment?
posted by jr at 10:26 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
jr: There is no 'web link' to that info, but if you do some 'digging', you should find the info. (Hint: Lucas County has 3 and and Holland filed 4....or vise-versa)
As to 'where' I got the info, "I'm sorry your Honor, I do not recall." ;-)
posted by Plantman at 10:30 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
I'm not interested in digging, nor do I get your hints. Since you posted the controversial info, it's your responsibility to tell us where or how you got it.
posted by jr at 10:33 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
katie: Villified means vicious and defamatory. What I pointed out was certainly not 'vicious' or defamed her in any way. It was a statement of fact and which may shed some light on her character and past criminal history.
With this past criminal & traffic history, she's given an indication of her obvious disregard for the law.
Does this past history qualify her to be treated quite as roughly as the Officer treated her? Probably not, but she's certainly not quite the 'angel' some are making her out to be.
posted by Plantman at 10:48 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
jr:: The info came from a very reliable source, given to me under the condition that they remain anonymous. Because I respect the confidentiality of that person, I don't want to 'testify' where I got the info, therefore the "I'm sorry, your Honor....
The facts are true and I'm sure is, or will be, public record. What the media chooses to do with it or whether they care to 'follow up' is their responsibility.
'My responsibility' is that of honoring the confidence of a friend. She/He has no problem with divulging the info, just not the source.
posted by Plantman at 11:04 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
So if a lawyer comes knocking, I will point the person to you, and then you can direct the lawyer to your source or friend or whatever, right? You're okay with that, right?
posted by jr at 11:24 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
"I'm sorry your Honor, I do not recall the exact source of my info.
posted by Plantman at 06:48 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 24, 2006 #
I have to say - if the traffic stop had happened to me and then your bad check follow up on a local talk board - Plantman - I'd want a judge to hear the matter. I seriously would. Where I come from this is insult to injury.
A politician or a performer puts themselves out voluntarily as a public figure and it's accepted that their personal and private financial records become somewhat of a matter for discussion in public forums. This is a private citizen who has not elected to make herself public.
She was in the newspaper because a cop jerked her out of her car in a nightmare of a traffic stop and then the cop quit his job in response to the situation.
To put information like that out in a public forum like this, refuse to provide substantiating proof that you even posted the truth or any reason to put that information out there - other than to defame a private citizen is just plain wrong.
posted by katie82640 at 08:55 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 24, 2006 #
The Plantman account has been deactivated.
Plantman posted what I'll consider to be libelous information, since Plantman refused all my requests to provide the source of the info posted in his comment dated Oct 23, 2006 at 5:30 p.m. Instead of listing the source, Plantman gave smart-ass answers.
I've removed the Plantman comments and the comments by other users who were discussing Plantman's possibly libelous comment.
If the info posted by Plantman becomes public via the media, then I'll restore the comments and the Plantman account.
I gave Plantman more time than I should have to respond to my requests. In my opinion, I allowed his posting to remain in this thread too long. The other users who had their comments removed will understand why.
I'm also closing this thread.
I no longer have the patience and tolerance that I once did for what gets posted on this site. Instead of asking questions and giving users multiple chances like I did in the past, for now on, I'll go right to deletion and deactivation.
posted by jr at 10:18 A.M. EST on Tue Oct 24, 2006 #
The Plantman account has been re-enabled. The fourteen or so comments prior to the last one that were removed have been restored. And obviously, commenting is allowed again in this thread.
Plantman said on October 23:
"Is anyone, including the news media, aware that Ms. Brown was served with 7 bad check charges shortly after the Ottawa Hills PD 'incident'?"
"While not integral to her case, it certainly does 'speak volumes' of her character!"
Plantman informed me via e-mail that the info supporting his comment can be found by searching the Sylvania Municipal Court website.
I viewed the case on the SMC website. Where is it stated that it was seven bad checks? All I see is: "Violation Description: Pass Bad Checks."
And not that it matters, but according to what I have read, the bad check(s) violation occurred before the Ottawa Hills incident and not after as Plantman had stated.
Probably a silly question, but any chance this is a different 24-year-old Latoya Brown?
posted by jr at 10:36 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 25, 2006 #
Probably a silly question, but any chance this is a different 24-year-old Latoya Brown?
It's not really a silly question; it most probably is the same person.
The real question is: why should we give a rat's ass?
Point A (that a person tossed a traffic citation out the window of her car and a police officer reacted by grabbing her by the hair and hurling her to the ground) has nothing to do with Point B (the same person being cited and tossed to the ground may or may not have at one time passed bad checks).
The issues at hand are the actions of the Ottawa Hills patrolman and his unnecessary use of force. That's why he longer is employed by the village of Ottawa Hills and it's all anybody should care about in conjunction with this entire matter.
I don't give a flying f*ck about the "character" of Latoya Brown. It's irrelevant.
posted by McCaskey at 11:48 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 25, 2006 #
Ok - just so I have this straight. If I bounce my checking account that will dimish my standing sufficiently that it will be acceptable to get this kind of treatment at a traffic stop?
If she was a better book keeper that somehow the police officer would have picked up on this and NOT behaved like he did at the traffic stop?
How does this (not uncommon - most people have lost track of their checking account at one time, er - uh Congress comes to mind) event play out in this 'videotaped' traffic stop from hell?
It still says character assasination to me.
posted by katie82640 at 10:58 A.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
Plantman, Ms. Brown's character is NOT in question here. The police officer's character IS in question here. No quantity of bad checks compelled the officer to act like he did ... and as we note, there were no bad-check charges made by the officer as a result of the traffic stop. (Note that it is possible for a bad check to become a felony, if the check amount is large enough; hence, a bench warrant could be issued for such an offender's arrest. However, again, there was no such charge made by the officer.)
You must have learned your technique from listening to Rush Limbaugh, where smear is the only allowed truth.
posted by GuestZero at 01:55 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
9 MILLION DOLLARS? Holy Crap!
The kind folks of Los Angeles were kind enough to reward Rodney's behavior (resisting the officers, charging the officers, throwing four officers off his back, and TWICE resisting the effects of 2 measly 50,000 volt stun guns (which keeps most people down) and fighting against officer's demands to assume the 'felony prone position' (which Rodney was NO stranger to), by awarding him $3.9M. (most of which went down his throat or was used for the procurement of miscellaneous controlled substances)
Brown and her counsel are asking for $9,000,000 for getting yanked out of her car, thrown to the ground - receiving nothing more than minor cuts, bruises/contusions! (Is it the 'intentional and reckless emotional stress that's worth that much?)
I love it! This is some 'positive reinforcement' we can all learn from! (although this was not what my parents taught me, damn it!)
DO NOT follow the officer's orders;
DO NOT treat the officer with respect;
DO give the officer a hard time;
DO insult the officer at every opportunity;
DO fight against any and all physical contact the officer makes towards you.
If you follow these simple rules, you too can become rich and locally 'famous'!
(And again, I'm hearing those voices in my head! They keep repeating the word opportunist over and over! Please make 'em stop!!!)
I guess if ya can't makes your own money, ya's gotsta take someone else's!
(And if this is indicative of Rush's 'smear tactics', I've never listened to him, but now I'm going to have to 'tune in'! Thanks for the 'tip', Guest!)
posted by Plantman at 10:32 A.M. EST on Fri Nov 24, 2006 #
Plantman, the LAPD should have wrestled King into hand and leg cuffs instead of just standing around watching him get beaten like a dog. Their desire to watch a Black man get beaten, and to avoid sweating too much (-- the poor dears!), are what really resulted in the jury decision. The police have no business making some obscure social point or "message"; their task is to protect and serve. In making arrests, they protect and serve best by being dutiful -- efficient and respectful. Hence King should have been in cuffs in short order given the large number of officers he was surrounded by. By the time the video was being taken, their failure was obvious.
In short, King was a twit, but he was NOT surrounded by adult supervision. He was surrounded instead by the same immature twits who were drunk on their own power and unable to make adult decisions. If such cops aren't stopped by bullets, they'll be stopped by enormous lawsuits. CHOOSE, Plantman!
As for Brown, well, she probably had shysters lining up outside her door to take this case. (It's a "free market" for lawyers, or haven't you Cons heard?) The cop screwed up and we all know it. However, I'm hoping that the same "we" will be on the jury and will avoid handing her the ridiculous payday she and her lawyers are hoping for. The cop is off the force, so she can hardly claim that corrective action wasn't taken.
Once again, Plantman, Brown's character is not in question here. The material facts ARE. The police department (or the prosecutor) dropped the charges. That was a roundly bad move since the officer seemed to clearly have her on the littering charge. It's hard to seek justice when the police take such a bad position.
Make sure you express your outrage to the police department and ask them why they dropped all the charges against Brown.
And for the record, if you're abused by a police officer, you SHOULD fight, or resist, or demand on the basis of your rights (which we must note you have to understand in the first place). Make sure your little altercation gets on the cruiser's video, too. It doesn't help if the police are obeyed no matter how wrong they are. We don't have to accept being abused by police, and somehow "fix it" later in court or administratively. If you're such a spineless little worm that you'd accept it, then fine, but don't expect men with courage to follow your slimy course.
And finally, Rush Limbaugh lost all credibility he had once he decided to be a drug-addled and shameless Republican shill. Having crossed the line of truth in order to support a murderous Empire, smear is all he understands or can do. Your brainless outrage is right up the alley of his typical audience member.
posted by GuestZero at 12:29 P.M. EST on Fri Nov 24, 2006 #
Here's what has Plantman's panties in a twist:
Woman files $9M lawsuit in Ottawa Hills traffic stop
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061123/NEWS03/611230473
The Ottawa Hills PD has already compromised their position since they "dismissed all charges against Ms. Brown". Dropping all charges implies that the traffic stop was not legal to begin with.
Since this means that the OHPD has effectively invited Ms Brown to obtain millions from them, then it seems rational to me that the residents of Ottawa Hills should organize to recall their mayor and to have a new mayor replace the police chief. The new chief should then train officers to cease their racial profiling, and then review each traffic stop for various metrics.
Even if Brown settles out of court (as the article says happened in that other incident in 1998), it's sure to be in the millions.
Then again, if the Ottawa Hills-Billies think that it's worth the cost of "keepin' the nigs out of my neighborhood!", then we'll see them do exactly nothing after Brown gets her "payday". We cannot dismiss the possibility that O-H residents are highly complicit in allowing their police to profile and attack on the basis of race. If that's the case, then Ms Brown and her lawyers are going to punish them as they deserve.
posted by GuestZero at 01:36 P.M. EST on Fri Nov 24, 2006 #
"Racism Tax"? He hee!
posted by GuestZero at 09:09 P.M. EST on Fri Nov 24, 2006 #
Ah, GuestZero, you slay me! I was just getting ready for bed, but after reading your 'arm-chair quarterbacking' as to what LAPD 'should have done', well, hell, I'm just gonna end up laying in bed all night laughing!
Jeez, and to think you mighta pissed off some 'ditto-heads' tonight too!
(And hey, if you're 'free', I've got some buddies that had some real bull shit training. Would you mind showing them the 'proper' procedures in a felony take-down?)
posted by Plantman at 01:17 A.M. EST on Sat Nov 25, 2006 #
Maybe a run for mayor or Chief of OHPD would be a good idea for you, Guest!
Today, Ottawa Hills - tomorrow, Los Angeles!
posted by Plantman at 01:22 A.M. EST on Sat Nov 25, 2006 #
We judge the LAPD in the same way we judge that Ottawa Hills cop. The LAPD cops were found guilty by a jury, and the O-H cop ran away like a little bitch when his OWN little Black-beat-down was exposed. Plantman, you've conveniently "forgotten" all those facts.
So, make sure you find that cop and urge him to "un-resign" since, of course, in your viewpoint of rightwingnuttery, he did nothing wrong. People who do nothing wrong should not resign. Right?
I don't live in O-H (having no fear or hatred of Black folks), hence it would be rather pointless to run for those offices. However, if you live there, then it does sound like you're the man for the job, certainly. Being that beating up Blacks is just OK with you, by implication, then you'd fit in quite well.
posted by GuestZero at 05:02 A.M. EST on Sat Nov 25, 2006 #
Anyhoo, I hope that Ottawa Hills residents are checking their platinum accounts, since there's another RACISM TAX coming along that they'll have to pay. Apparently, that's just the cost of doing (White) business in Ottawa Hills.
posted by GuestZero at 05:04 A.M. EST on Sat Nov 25, 2006 #
Guestzero you're stupid
posted by Kmorgan at 10:31 A.M. EST on Sat Nov 25, 2006 #
No, GZ, you're not stupid, I enjoy reading your posts 'cause you're sharp as a f*cking tack.
However, in this case, you're getting awfully close to sterotyping all those "rich white folks" who live in OH.
We don't live there but my wife and I know enough OH people through her job that I know there are many OH residents who are totally embarrassed and infuriated by the actions of their police department, specifically this latest incident. They figure, rightfully, this casts a negative light on all the residents there, even those who have problems with their own PD (there's a segment of residents who believe the OH PD loves nothing better than to try to bust OH residents for DUIs on weekends).
I'm also certain they have their share of racists, as in any other community.
posted by McCaskey at 12:43 P.M. EST on Sat Nov 25, 2006 #
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