Sarantou's "October Surprise" - A poll earlier this month showed Sarantou trailing Konop by 17 points. And now: "George Sarantou [criticized] Democrat Ben Konop for purchasing campaign brochures from a Texas-based company. In April, Mr. Konop announced an initiative to promote area companies."
"Both candidates during the campaign have highlighted the need to spur job growth in a region that lags the nation in employment, income, and education. One of the ways to do that is buying local. Shopping at hometown businesses contributes more wealth to the community than a chain store does, Mr. Sarantou and Mr. Konop have argued."
"By his own estimates, Mr. Konop has spent $10,000 locally on campaign supplies ranging from T-shirts to signs to stationery. He paid $3,000 to Designer Graphics for brochures because local companies were unable to give him a competitive bid. "I have a limited number of resources and need to get my message out," Mr. Konop said."
Sarantou said of Konop: "He ought to support local businesses by purchasing from them all the way. It's a real slap in the face to working men and women." posted by jr to politics at 12:06 P.M. EST(67 Comments)
Comments ...
More like "Sarantou's Desperate Cry." Surely, he can do better than that to win votes.
posted by junta330 at 12:33 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
I wonder if the candidates use a local web hosting company? I don't, but I'm not running for office. Four years ago, I'm not sure if a local hosting company offered Linux servers along with some other things I required for ten clams a month.
posted by jr at 12:44 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
"I have a limited number of resources and need to get my message out," Mr. Konop said."
Sorry, Im not buying that line. He is endorsed by most of the unions, he is officially endorsed by the party, his father has been having fundraisers etc. I find it hard to believe that one of our local shops couldnt have helped him. What about Hecks printing, they couldn't give him a good deal or did he even bother to get a bid from them?
posted by tm at 12:51 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
By perception, if you are touting the buy local theme, you'd better be darn sure all -- ALL -- of your purchases are made locally if at all possible. Even if it means paying a bit extra.
They're only brochures. With the more than enough supply of sole-practitioner graphics designers (and agencies) as well as printers in the area, I'm sure Konop could've found a decent deal.
I live in Bedford so haven't been paying detailed attention to the Lucas County and Toledo races. Therefore, I can't comment about the nitty-gritty of the accusations.
I'm just talking about possible perceptions.
If Konop can justify the out-of-city expense, that's fine. But he'd better be able to justify it to the voters.
Mike
posted by miked918 at 01:12 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
Junta said: "Surely, [Sarantou] can do better than that to win votes."
Ha! Apparently NOT. Sarantou is too busy stirring a teapot to sub-tempest velocity to bother with marketing himself to the voters as some sort of real change agent. He might as well just say:
"Hi, I'm Sarantou, I'm running for some office or another -- I forget exactly, but that doesn't matter -- and I'm a more established politician around here than that skinny whelp of an opponent. It beats workin', anyway. Vote for me!" *
(Well, that's what I hear when he speaks, anyway.)
* Note that is a fictional account, representing GuestZero's ideas in his own brain about how the internal dialogue of a possibly-real politician proceeds. No one should take any of this seriously, since a far more zany and wacky thing is coming up to put all of GuestZero's attempts at humor to shame: an election.
posted by GuestZero at 01:13 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
I go back on forth on this and I'd like your opinion...is it better to buy based upon location or price?
I've always thought that if we decreased the cost of government, then local businesses wouldn't have so much costs (fees, regulation, taxes, etc) and what they charge could be more competitive with other areas. I understand the fiscal impact of 'buying local' and keeping money within the community but have to wonder why our local prices aren't more competitive with others in the first place?
Instead of just 'buying local,' wouldn't we all be better off, in the long run, working to address the root of the problem - making our local companies globally, or at least nationally, competitive? I'd rather hear the candidates ideas on that!
While it certainly doesn't apply to your personal choices, the law prohibits counties from having a 'local preference' in their purchasing, so this is a 'bully pulpit' issue only.
posted by MaggieThurber at 03:24 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
Maggie,
My understanding is that buying local keeps more money within the local economy. This from a Blade article sometime ago:
It estimated that Thackeray’s Books contributed $5 million to the area economy annually, versus $1.15 million from Barnes & Noble. And each $100 spent at Thackeray’s produced a local return of $44, compared to a $20 return by Barnes & Noble.
While Ben Konop was promoting buying local in that article, I have seen the study that actually says that.
To further answer your question Maggie, is it better to buy based on location or price, the answer depends. For the everyday consumer, in his or her day to day activities, it is better to buy based on price (because price tends to be the deciding factor when a consumer makes a choice to purchase the same item for different prices). For longterm benefits to the local economy, it is better to buy from locally owned businesses. If most consumers bought local, then our economy would improve (to what level, I don't know). That's why small businesses are so important to the community.
Obviously, Barnes and Noble sells more books overall than Thackeray's did (that was my bookstore for a long time, by the way), but had everybody bought books at a locally owned book store, and none from national bookstores, then our economy would be returning $24 more to the economy for every $100 spent on books (assuming that everybody now buys books at national bookstores). Imagine the effect on the economy if you include all local small businesses. It would add up and seriously improve our economy.
And yes, Toledo would be doing even better if our locally produced products were exported nationally and globally, but that is somewhat outside the scope of what buying local will do for the economy.
And yes, this is likely a bully pulpit issue. I think it's something that they can only encourage the citizenry to participate in.
posted by junta330 at 06:02 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
My son, Adam, is strong for Toledo and Lucas County. He is probably about one of biggest "buy local" proponents this city and county has ever seen.
A while back, Adam started a site which he still maintains called ToledoLinks.com. I am very, very proud of him.
posted by RolandHansen at 07:03 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
I say buy local. It typically costs more - sometimes you get surprised and it is a great deal. Look locally first - the bottom line IS that the money spent goes into the local economy.
Sometimes it goes to support a local business persons' household :-) and that's a good thing.
But I would say that Mr. Konop is young yet and not to be too judgmental - but it was not a wise decision to initiate a buy local campaign while you were not doing so yourself.
posted by katie82640 at 07:05 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
They both, George and Ben, outsourced their domain name registration and their hosting. I'll have to take a look at it once I get home (at work), but at first glance it looks like they both outsourced their hosting and registration. So if George wants to say that ALL items need to be purchased local then he TOO is being hypocritical. Who are their web designers? Do George or Ben drive Jeeps? Do they buy all their glassware from Libbey Glass? Does George or Ben use Buckeye Cable System for their internet, TV, and phone or do they use ATT and Dish Network? Get real, nobody is going to be able to go out of their way all the time just to buy products from Toledo-made or Toledo companies. So long as it's preferenced and the opportunity presents itself then cool. Buy books at a local bookstore, not Barnes and Noble next door.
If Toledo businesses want to sell internationally, they can start by setting up a small e-commerce site or just an establishment on the web to say, "Hey, we're here and we're ready to provide you our services and products."
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 09:04 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
I like Ben and plan to vote for him. George landed at least a glancing blow on this one, but only because Ben had a weak response. Is not the argument for shopping at Wal-Mart that "I only have a limited amount of money and I have to go with the best deal"? That's why, although I think it is important to shop local, I am not going to make a big deal about it. Expecting Toledoans to shop only at locally owned businesses is unrealistic. To do so is not always affordable or convenient. But if people shopped at locally owned business a even a little more, that would help....
posted by Ace_Face at 10:08 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 26, 2006 #
Pathetic. So Georgie found an item that probably escaped Benjy's attention. Oooh! It's fuckin' BrochureGate, or somethin'. Instead of a crew of "plumbers", we have a crew of "printers".
If Georgie drops another 5 points in the polls, maybe he'll start questioning Benjy's sexual preference.
I'm hardly going to vote for a tax-and-spend Dem like Konop, but Sarantou obviously has literally NOTHING to bring to the table. There's another fine empty Republican candidate for NW Ohio to enjoy. To paraphrase T.S. Eliot, there's nothing between his shoes and his hat.
posted by GuestZero at 01:12 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Yep. George Sarantou's web host is located in Scottsdale, Arizona. Ben Konop's web host is located in Youngstown, Ohio.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 03:40 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Do George or Ben drive Jeeps? Do they buy all their glassware from Libbey Glass? Does George or Ben use Buckeye Cable System for their internet, TV, and phone or do they use ATT and Dish Network? I do not know about George or Ben, but I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo, I patronize Libbey Glass at Erie Street Market, and I use Buckeye CableSystem for my internet, television, and telephone services.
posted by RolandHansen at 06:30 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
T++ - great detective work.
posted by katie82640 at 08:22 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
To verify the procedures used to locate a web host, ToledoPlusPlus, where is the location of the web hosting company I'm using for Toledo Talk?
posted by jr at 09:14 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
From yesterdays blade -
"I have a limited number of resources and need to get my message out," Mr. Konop said."
From todays blade -
In the race for county commissioner, Mr. Konop, a Democrat, reported an on-hand balance of $26,723.94 - twice as much money as his challenger, Republican George Sarantou, has left in his campaign fund.
posted by tm at 10:04 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
I wonder...
If Sarantou wins the election, they will have another council seat open. I wonder if farty will appoint ben? (he mentioned that once in the paper i think)?
posted by tm at 10:08 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
...where is the location of the web hosting company I'm using for Toledo Talk?
Baltimore
posted by babbleman at 10:10 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
...is it better to buy based upon location or price?
It is best to buy the best value always - no exceptions.
Buying local, buying American - whatever you want to call it is protectionism which is like taking a drug. It does not cure the problem - it makes it worse.
The best thing any community or region or country can do is buy the best value thus incentivizing local producers to compete.
Taxation, regulation and organized labor (as well as the organized labor benefits that have been made into law) are what make us weak on value and productivity. Rewarding that weakness by purposely not buying better value only funds the weakness further.
And, frankly, even if we all bought Amercian (or locally) it wouldn't matter - the rest of the world won't - they are going to go to the best value - which isn't going to be us. So it is not sustainable in the end anyway. You can't live in a vacuum. And you can never reward inferior value and expect it to survive.
So, regarding Sarantou, I think it is great that he is calling Konop on it because making a stand on buying local is stupid in the first place. Its even more stupid to be hypocritical about it.
posted by babbleman at 10:23 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
"Baltimore"
Incorrect.
posted by jr at 10:32 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
good question jr. Yours says you have Network Solutions - but it shows up like one of mine w/them. I took out the privacy option.....
posted by katie82640 at 10:54 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Incorrect.
Doh!
Hmmm, well I used www.dnsstuff.com. A simple ping to www.toledotalk.com resolves to 66.160.149.147 which, in the City from IP, function resolves to Baltimore.
Their FAQ on geolocation says:
How accurate is geolocation? It depends on the database that you use. For countries, they are typically about 95+% accurate. For cities, accuracy can vary, typically ranging from about 50% to 80%. In many cases where the city is not correct, it is close to the correct city (such as a suburb of a major city). The accuracy isn't perfect, since there is no official source of the information, and IPs can sometimes be shared by people in different locations.
posted by babbleman at 10:54 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Also - I don't recall Sarantou having a buy local campaign? I just thought of that. I heard what he had to say and he said he tried to buy local whenever possible. But it was Konop who started the buy local...and...well - didn't.
posted by katie82640 at 10:55 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Katie - Network Solutions is the domain registrar. They don't have anything to do with where the site is hosted physically.
posted by babbleman at 10:57 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
To verify the procedures used to locate a web host, ToledoPlusPlus, where is the location of the web hosting company I'm using for Toledo Talk?
JR: The registar for TT is:
Network Solutions, LLC.
13200 Woodland Park Drive
Herndon, VA 20171-3025
Since you are using named servers as follows:
NS1.HE.NET 216.218.130.2
NS2.HE.NET 216.218.131.2
NS3.HE.NET 216.218.132.2
I can assume that you are using Network Solution Servers (NS1) based out of Herdon (HE)and not some propritary servers out of...oh let's say...your basement.
Am I close?
posted by KraZyKat at 11:11 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
However your server location is:
City: San Jose California
Country: United States
Continent: North America
Time Zone: PST
So maybe your are hosted out of San Jose but thats just probably where NS has their Data center located.
posted by KraZyKat at 11:22 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
how do you find that info? The whois thing is all I know to look at.
posted by katie82640 at 11:23 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
JR - Your web host is in Fremont, California.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:33 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
It's hosted by Hurricane Electric.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:35 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Not that my personal opinion carries any additional weight, but I'd like to point out that I was one of the people behind the Konop campaign being involved in the "buy local" concept. It is something that I have promoted, do promote, and during the primary it was something that Ben agreed was important too and added it as a part of his campaign and has continued to campaign on that.
I don't buy everything local, the concept as I have always felt was that we should support local first. That doesn't mean always, no matter the additional cost. If the costs are close and local is only a little more, then of course I would recommend buying local because the extra dollar investment that stays in the community makes it worthwhile to do so.
Supporting local first to me is different than support local always. I'd also point out that personally if I ever ran for office with the way I've seen the almost blackmailish behavior from the one sign company that assumes that if you don't buy from them you should end up on their "wall of shame" I wouldn't buy any campaign material from them. Especially since they expect candidates to pay more, that to me is not the way I'd want to encourage local people to support my business. "Use me or else"? Maybe the Konop and now the McNamara campaign since they are also having a focus being made on using the same Tyler, Texas company could have found a local business that could have done the job for a comparable price, but they didn't because it seems clear neither campaign found a local company that could do the jobs under the same terms and quality that they got thru the Tyler Texas company. Which I also have to point out you have to have really really good eyes or a good magnifying glass to even read these things came from Tyler, Texas.
So, while I'd like to see our candidates support as many local businesses as possible whether they have made that a part of their campaign or not, to me the common sense application of this is if a comparable local price can not be negotiated then fiscal responsibilty should be an important factor.
For me to personally demand these candidates buy everything locally no matter the price difference would make me a hypocrit since it's not something I can afford to do everytime either.
posted by psyche777 at 11:41 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
And JR, if I'm reading this correctly your server has two backdoor viruses on it -- subseven and netbus. :)
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:47 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
It's hosted by Hurricane Electric. Maybe, but I see Hurricane as just one hop to the final destination.
Tracing route to ns1.he.net [216.218.130.2]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 <1 ms <1 ms 1 ms 172.16.12.3
2 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 172.16.252.2
3 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 63.85.149.254
4 <1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 63.84.201.2
5 5 ms 6 ms 5 ms 500.POS3-0.GW5.CHI1.ALTER.NET [63.84.148.37]
6 7 ms 5 ms 6 ms 0.so-1-0-0.XL2.CHI1.ALTER.NET [152.63.70.70]
7 30 ms 30 ms 29 ms 0.so-5-1-3.XT2.NYC9.ALTER.NET [152.63.2.6]
8 32 ms 32 ms 31 ms POS7-0.GW6.NYC9.ALTER.NET [152.63.24.69]
9 33 ms 33 ms 37 ms teliasonera-gw.customer.alter.net [63.65.167.42]
10 36 ms 33 ms 34 ms nyk-bb2-pos1-1-0.telia.net [213.248.83.65]
11 33 ms 34 ms 34 ms ash-bb1-pos7-0-0-0.telia.net [213.248.80.138]
12 33 ms 32 ms 33 ms hurricane-109001-ash-bb1.c.telia.net [213.248.88
.102] 13 88 ms 89 ms 89 ms pos3-3.gsr12416.pao.he.net [216.218.254.205]
14 88 ms 88 ms 88 ms pos2-0.gsr12012.sjc.he.net [216.218.214.246]
15 95 ms 96 ms 95 ms ns1.he.net [216.218.130.2]
Trace complete.
posted by KraZyKat at 11:48 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Roland Hansen -- Do you use Owens Corning insulation in your house and shingles for your roof? I'm bound to stump your somewhere.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:50 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Even simpler KrazyKat -- If you have Firefox as your web browser, there is an extension called Shazou that locates on a google map where server's are located. But very nice job on utilizing your DOS commands :), there are people in my network security class who don't know even know how to use those haha :).
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:53 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
I do not have Firefox T++, but is the image below what you are talking about?
posted by KraZyKat at 12:09 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
It sure is :).
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:14 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
My traceroute shows similar servers right before hitting the site itself:
pos1-0.gsr12012.sjc.he.net [64.62.227.53]
pos1-2.gsr12416.fmt.he.net [64.71.128.182]
pos8-0.gsr12012.fmt.he.net [66.220.20.138]
posted by GuestZero at 12:25 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
By the way JR -- I didn't notice that those two trojan horse ports were filtered (aka not likely those are really open).
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:28 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
ToledoPlusPlus is correct. I use HE.net (Hurricane Electric) for web hosting.
Hurricane Electric
760 Mission Court
Fremont, CA 94539
I reserve the domain name through Network Solutions.
My first experience with HE.net was back in '95 or '96, so I chose them for web hosting because they had been around for while, they're solid, and they're inexpensive.
"And JR, if I'm reading this correctly your server has two backdoor viruses on it -- subseven and netbus."
Not my server. If it was, Toledo Talk wouldn't be sharing its server with dozens of other websites, which is what happens with the $10 per month plan.
So what are the company names and contact info for the web hosting companies used by Sarantou and Konop?
This is petty scrutiny, but the politicians bring it upon themselves.
Konop suggests a buy local initiative, and Sarantou points out that Konop uses a Texas company to print campaign brochures. In the context of political campaigning, Sarantou was right to mention this. Do you think Konop would be silent if it was the other way around?
But now that Sarantou has made an issue of this, then Sarantou is also open to such scrutiny. So a simple question: What's the name of the company hosting Sarantou's election campaign website?
Konop and Sarantou are running for Lucas County Commissioner. Are they hosting their websites with a Lucas County company? Toledo Talk user Alternea offers web hosting services. The actual server farm may not be in Toledo, but Alternea's organization is located here. I'm interested in the location of the company not the server.
According to whois info, the GeorgeSarantou.com domain name was created back in July. So Sarantou hasn't spent much on his web hosting, but does that matter? Do we have rules, like if it's less than $100, it's okay to use a non-local company?
"In April, Mr. Konop announced an initiative to promote area companies, just as Mr. Sarantou did in September."
Bring on the magnifying glass.
posted by jr at 12:40 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Maybee i would be happier about it if Ben produced ALL of the bids he obtained for toledo and this texas company to prove that the prices were competitive. I know i have no right to ask this, but he's campagning on buying local and isn't using local for his own campaign brochures. To me that says "do what i say, not as i do". and thats the type of politicain that im tired of! They promote this great idea and dont follow it themselves.
Personally, i will be leaving that part of my vote blank. I was on the fence before but that just tipped me to the other side.
Now i totally understand that you can't buy everything local and i wouldn't even expect it. but to not use a local printer/graphics designer who is local just tells me that he is above what he preaches.
(and that is just a personal opinion)
posted by tm at 12:41 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
If Sarantou had a website about gardening, I wouldn't care what company he used to host it.
If Konop distributed brochures about gardening, I wouldn't care what company he used to print them.
But these two are running for political office, and both are using the "buy local" idea as a part of their political campaigns. They are using websites and brochures to convince people to vote for them. So in my opinion, it's fair to be critical when they don't use local companies to support their political campaigns.
posted by jr at 12:56 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Ben Konop -
URL: "http://benkonop.com/
IP: 66.203.1.86
Org: CBoss Community Network
Server Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Main Office:
7332 Southern Blvd.
Boardman, Ohio 44512
Email: info@cboss.com Phone: 330-726-0429
(Guessing the data center is down the road from their main office, just as Buckeye Cable Systems is)
And CBOSS uses Vertex Internet in Lititz, PA.
George Sarantou -
Currently the site is down -- will try in a little bit.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 01:00 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
But now that Sarantou has made an issue of this, then Sarantou is also open to such scrutiny. So a simple question: What's the name of the company hosting Sarantou's election campaign website?
Based on what T++ stated that it is hosted out of Scottsdale Arz., this from LightEdge Homepage:
LightEdge is headquartered in Des Moines, Iowa with offices in Cedar Rapids; Moline, Illinois; Kansas City; Minneapolis; Omaha; and Scottsdale. Our products are backed by one of the strongest service guarantees in the industry and we're committed to providing the best possible service 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
I could be wrong though
posted by KraZyKat at 01:02 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
George Sarantou -
URL: http://www.georgesarantou.com/ IP: 64.202.163.189
Org: Go Daddy Software
Server Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Main Office:
14455 N Hayden Rd.
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
Email (for press): press@godaddy.com Phone: (480) 505-8877
And minus the above with Vertex Internet -- that was a mistake on my part.
Interesting thing, both candidates outsourced their web host while the City Of Toledo's web host is Buckeye Cable System :).
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 01:13 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
LightEdge's server is located in Des Moines, IA. :)
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 01:16 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
All this techo yak is interesting, even though it's admittedly way over my un-trained in techno-speak head.
Bottom line, though...from a political standpoint, what's this really going to cost Ben Konop? I say damn little. He was way ahead in the last poll I saw and this won't make a dime's worth of difference (maybe a nickel's worth and that's not enough for Sarantou).
Nobody can buy local everytime, all the time.
Konop wins big Nov. 7.
posted by McCaskey at 01:41 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
I'll have to say it will have little to no effect as well. For one, I'm going to guess the only people who care about this stuff are the crazy politico's discussing on this board :). I doubt the majority of Lucas County even cared or even heard about it -- especially since "1000's" of people and businesses have cancelled the Blade :).
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 01:45 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
It's not the crazy politico's on this message board. It's the crazy politico's running for office who use fluff ideas like buy local as a reason to vote for them. It wasn't someone on this message board who raised the issue. It was a politician whining to a daily newspaper.
I say, it's your money, and you can spend it anyway you damn well please. I've owned Honda cars for over 14 years, and I don't plan to change just because I live in the city where Jeeps are made. I don't need a politican or a business owner telling me how to spend my money.
I've dropped a lot of coin over the years on local businesses because I like the local businesses not because someone told me it's what I should do. I came to the conclusion on my own years ago that supporting local businesses as much as possible is a good thing.
posted by jr at 02:17 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Don't think that by "crazy politico's" I meant it to be degrading. It was just sarcasm, saying the scope of people caring is no further than the people who discuss on this board. I was being a smart ass.
I agree with you that politicians shouldn't be telling us where to buy or what to buy, but I don't believe that was Ben's goal to mandate local buying. I believe his goal was to just spruce up the local spirit. I wouldn't vote for either candidate based on a local buying initiative either, but I don't think their intentions were one of mandating.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 03:39 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
ToledoPlusPlus: Roland Hansen -- Do you use Owens Corning insulation in your house and shingles for your roof? I'm bound to stump your somewhere. The answer to your question is "Yes."
And, you may be able to stump me somewhere, as you call it, but I don't understand why you would say that because I never claimed to buy only local local products and services. I just responded in general to some specific questions you raised about some specific local products and services that were originally directed at Ben and George.
Sorry, if I was out of line for interjecting on your commentary directed at some other persons.
posted by RolandHansen at 07:11 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
No problems Roland, I'm just being a smartass again :). Point was I don't think Ben's intention was to ask everyone to buy everything local. I think his point was just to shine some light on local businesses and give them a booster -- "Hey, there are some quality local businesses out there. Check 'em all out." But that's only an impression.
So Roland, was your toilet made in Toledo? :)
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 07:52 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
So Roland, was your toilet made in Toledo? :) Well, since you asked, I do not know if the toilet was made in Toledo. I can say this, though. I had a new 1.6gallon/6liter per flush Kohler toilet installed last year by a local plumber who got it from a local supplier.
posted by RolandHansen at 08:30 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Lessee,
Is anyone using Spartan Cleaning supples? I do.
Does anyone use products from Giant Industries? They make pressure washing products. I have had their parts used on stuff here.
Marco's Pizza is opening some of their stores in Florida, but I aint waiting 2 1/2 hours for my pizza.
I use Toledo Express everytime I fly into town. cheaptickets.com got me a 24 hour notice flight round trip for $207 with tax. Schwartz, whisper whisper.
Eating in King's Taste and Yum Yum's, and yes, my home is pinked.
And when out shopping and such in Florida, I'm always wearing my Mud Hens hat.
*tink* *tink* *tink* keep the change.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 08:48 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
The August/September 2006 issue of Mother Earth News contained an article titled: "12 Great Places You’ve Never Heard Of." (One town on the list is home to my old college stomping grounds: Athens, Ohio.)
Ithaca, New York made the list of 12.
"Ithaca is famous worldwide for creating a local currency called Ithaca Hours, which encourages people to shop locally owned businesses — more than 500 now accept the colorful bills, which are issued in various denominations of the value of an hour’s work at the prevailing wage. By using the local currency, Ithaca residents make sure their money supports their own community."
Blade columnist Roberta deBoer wrote about this in December 2004:
"[Toledo] is in pitiful financial shape, and I'm doing my best to help. Well, today I'm offering a suggestion in earnest. Toledo, let's print our own money."
"Ithaca, N.Y., has been doing it for nearly 15 years, and no one's prosecuted them yet. They call their homemade currency an Hour, and it's valued at $10 - the average hourly Ithaca wage when they began in 1991."
"Some 400 local Ithaca businesses now accept Hours, which is the point: Circulating city-specific scrip keeps local dollars local. When local businesses accept currency with only local value, that money changes hands within the community more frequently."
"A study this summer by the University of Toledo's Urban Affairs Center gives some idea of how much impact this can have. Focusing on one locally owned business, Thackeray's Books, the study concluded that the Westgate store's annual impact on the Toledo economy is $5 million. (Note, though, that Thackeray's was among the study's financial contributors.)"
"Gbenga Ajilore, the assistant professor of economics who conducted the study, concluded that "more of Thackeray's revenues stay within the local economy through their use of local labor, local suppliers, and profit. In the case with a national chain, revenues stay within the community usually only through wages to employees." "
"Hometown money is one of those ideas that's so simple, you'd never think of it. By now, some 20 other cities around the country have taken advantage of Mr. Glover's good idea. (The Cleveland suburb of Lakewood is now considering it.)"
Roberta mentioned Ithaca Hours again a couple months ago (September 3, 2006) in a column about Szollosi's idea of flying from Toledo Express.
"I'm a big booster of buy-local economics. I once turned over this whole column to a description of "Ithaca Dollars," the creative effort by that city in New York state to keep its economic stream recirculating."
"That column, by the way, might hold my record for LDRI - Lowest Demonstrated Reader Interest - yielding all of maybe five e-mails and zero public discussion. Apparently, I alone found Ithaca's strategy compelling."
And there's the problem for Toledo: Zero interest in something concrete. We like to talk a big game about buying local.
Ithaca's population is about 20,000 while Toledo's is around 300,000. Maybe for some reason Toledo's size would prohibit the implementation of a similar "Frogtown Hours" scrip program. But the main point is, in Ithaca, NY, the buy local idea is more than just lip service.
If Toledo did decide to move forward with a Frogtown Hours program, it would probably take officials 20 years to decide what image to put on each bill.
posted by jr at 10:14 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
Agreed JR. Well said. But there is certainly something to the program.
posted by junta330 at 11:17 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 27, 2006 #
And JR, that idea actually might have some merit to it. Perhaps, if you've got the time, you can offer that idea up to the candidates and see what they have to say and post it? Depending on their answer, we might all get a better understanding of whose more willing to listen to community input and take the time to study the idea, as opposed to the candidate who talks big but doesn't act.
If not, then I'll call them and see what they have to say.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:56 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 28, 2006 #
Depending on their answer, we might all get a better understanding of whose more willing to listen to community input and take the time to study the idea, as opposed to the candidate who talks big but doesn't act.
Don't wait around a lot for that to happen around here. We are better off getting the private and community sectors together to come up with a plan and make the politicians follow our lead.
posted by jdmsbyrd at 12:49 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 29, 2006 #
From the IthacaHours.org website:
"Over 900 participants publicly accept Ithaca HOURS for goods and services. Additionally some local employers and employees have agreed to pay or receive partial wages in Ithaca Hours, further continuing our goal of keeping money local."
From the 1993 Mother Earth News article about Ithaca Hours:
"Tough times, it seems, have been with us for years. Many of us have been hit pretty hard. Paul Glover, a resident of Ithaca, New York, decided to do something about it. [In 1991] he came up with a supplemental currency called HOURS ..."
(The article doesn't specify if Glover was a politician or a "normal" resident.)
"... and here's how it works. Each HOUR is equivalent to one hour of time, or $10, which is the local county's average hourly wage. Also available are 1/4 HOURS ($2.50), 1/2 HOURS ($5), and 2 HOURS ($20), all printed from a small shop in town. You can buy all the goods and services you need just like you can with the U.S. dollar. You can even use HOURS to go to the movies or to enjoy some fine dining."
"The best news and worst news about Paul's HOURS is the fact that they are worthless outside of Ithaca. As a result, they circulate within the community, improving the city's economic flow and encouraging participants to put their faith in each other rather than the almighty dollar. As the Ithaca HOUR plainly states, "In Ithaca We Trust." "
"Anyone can participate. For one dollar, residents become members and receive four HOURS automatically. Ithaca Money , the local newspaper established and published by Paul, lists all of the members, their phone numbers, and the services or goods they are either offering or seeking."
COMMUNITY SPIRIT
"For the currency to work, participants must be willing to put their faith in each other and realize that everyone's hour of labor has the same dignity."
Who prints and issues HOURS?
"Decisions to print and issue HOURS are made by those who attend Barter Potlucks. Anyone who advertises their willingness to accept HOURS may vote. They decide how many HOURS will be sold at $10 each to obtain dollars for printing HOURS. They decide which denominations will be printed. They decide how many HOURS will be paid to new sign-ups and for renewals, and they make HOUR grants."
"HOUR notes are signed by Patrice Jennings, a member service representative at Ithaca's Alternative Federal Credit Union, and are also signed by Victoria Romanoff, a local historic preservationist. Our intention is to stimulate the creation of jobs and to expand Ithaca's economy, paying special attention to ecology and social justice."
What prevents counterfeiting?
"HOURS are printed on heavy colored recycled paper, with a second color overlay. Also, red serial numbers are stamped deeply and can be felt."
Since the HOUR is $10, won't it sink if the dollar goes down?
"Our plan is to gradually develop a catalog of HOUR prices, which will eventually allow the HOUR to serve independently of dollar values."
Are Ithaca HOURS legal?
"They are a form of scrip often issued during money shortages. They are not illegal; the government's main concern is tax collection."
And so on ...
I don't totally understand how the Ithaca Hours works.
Supposedly, some local Toledo businesses are starting their own buy local campaign. Maybe they should look into some form of Ithaca Hours and publish a list of participating businesses. Would allow for cross-promotion, etc.
More from that 1993 article:
Create a Local Currency in Your Community By Paul Glover, creator of Ithaca Hours
"Although local currency is lots of fun, it's also lots of work and responsibility. Here's a step-by-step summary of how we got started in Ithaca and how we're expanding."
Read the article for the details about each step. Some excerpts from the each step:
1. Design the money. By law, your cash must be obviously different from a dollar, and of a different size.
2. Sign up participants. Show prototypes of your money to people who might be willing to appear in the first published list. Tell them this will be real money, backed by real people, real tune, real skills and goods. Tell businesses that local money stimulates spending by those otherwise too poor to purchase, promotes locally owned small businesses, and keeps wealth in the local economy.
3. Design your fast barter newspaper.
4. Sell display ads by showing sample pages of your newspaper to businesses.
5. Print the money. Use colors. Our 2 HOUR note ($20) is printed on locally made 100% cattail paper with a watermark, and we use soy ink. Serial numbers convert the paper into money.
6. Print the first newspaper and mail them with the agreed local currency payment to each pioneer participant.
7. Distribute the newspaper to the public.
8. Issue a press release to introduce the list and money to the larger audiences of TV, radio, and other newspapers.
9. Keep in touch, especially with those likeliest to earn the most money.
10. Call everyone on the list periodically to make sure phone numbers and listings are accurate.
11. Collect success stories when trading begins, and publish these.
"Note: Further details of operation responsibilities are available in Paul's Hometown Money Starter Kit, which also includes forms, laws, barter articles, past and future issues of Ithaca Money, samples of Ithaca's HOURS, photocopies of depression-era scrip from your state or city, and more. Price is $25 from Ithaca Money, Box 6578, Ithaca, NY 14851."
I don't know if the word "complex" is approrpiate to describe Ithaca Hours, but an identical program may be a bit much for a city the size of Toledo. Maybe a modified version for Toledo and the surrounding communities could be created. But I do think it's up to the local businesses to band together to initiate such a program.
"The Toronto Dollar project was started by a group of community-minded people with a dream - to build a healthier, more prosperous local economy that puts more spending power in the hands of people in need. You can help us make a difference by using Toronto Dollars. The Toronto Dollar is a local currency that benefits the community by:"
* strengthening the local economy and supporting new businesses
* keeping your money working and circulating locally
* bringing decision-making back to the community
* creating new employment opportunities
* supporting community projects with the funds received from the 10% merchant contribution
How the Toronto Dollar works
* consumers exchange 1 Canadian dollar for 1 Toronto dollar through participating organizations or at the Toronto Dollar booth at the St. Lawrence Market (open on Saturdays)
* you spend Toronto Dollars as you would Canadian dollars at participating businesses. There is a registration fee of $25 for new businesses.
* the 10% solution: each time a Toronto Dollar is purchased from Toronto Dollar Inc, 90 cents is deposited in a reserve fund and 10 cents goes to the Toronto Dollar Community Projects Fund
* businesses can spend the Toronto Dollars for services or products at other businesses, hire part-time staff or they can redeem their Toronto Dollars for 90 cents
On the surface, Toronto Dollars appears to be a simpler project than Ithaca Hours.
I don't think a program exists in Lakewood, Ohio. This web page is meant to get people interested in such a project. The page links to a Plain Dealer story that unfortunately no longer exists. Stupid newspaper.
Found this November 16, 2004 blog posting, which said:
"Lakewood, Ohio may become one of about two dozen communities in the Ithaca_hour country to adopt a local currency. Councilman Denis Dunn is proposing Lakewood Dollars, based off of the Ithaca Hour that has circulated throughout Ithaca, New York since 1991. According to Dunn: "It will allow residents to make purchases based on civic pride to support local business...[and to] keep spending in Lakewood." "
posted by jr at 12:16 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 29, 2006 #
Notes from an October 2004 Lakewood city council meeting:
---- start ----
****NEW BUSINESS****
19. Communication from Councilmember Dunn regarding Lakewood Dollars. (Pg. 29)
Motion by Mr. Dunn, seconded by Ms. Madigan, to receive, file and refer to the Committee of the Whole.
Mr. Dunn asked to clarify indicating that however the dollar is designed, and is not made to look like actual, federal sponsored currency that it is not illegal. He sated that there was a long history of communities wanting to retain wealth within their borders. He said it would not impede regionalism or globalism. He sated that that during the time of adjustment, when markets are creating efficiencies, Lakewood should bargain from a position of strength and retain as much wealth in the community as possible. He said that he did not think it would be prudent to have Lakewood dollars sanctioned by City government and that this was why he encouraged the Chamber of Commerce and members of Lakewood Alive to meet with Council to discuss the issues facing economic development and the merits of Lakewood Dollars. He stated this is one of many tools to make sure Lakewood was strong in the future.
Mr. FitzGerald asked if once the dollars were issued - if one Lakewood entity could use those Lakewood dollars to purchase something from another Lakewood entity. He asked how would sales taxes be collected.
Mr. Dunn responded this would be done in the same way it would be recognized in terms of receipts and accounts payable.
Mr. FitzGerald asked if the State would be would recognize he dollars.
Mr. Dunn responded that the profits from the transaction would be paid in Federal greenbacks, and wouldn't be paid in "Lakewood Dollars".
Mr. FitzGerald asked if the involvement or approval of the State would be necessary to have a local currency.
Mr. Dunn responded that if the Lakewood Chamber of Commerce offered this program that there would not be hesitation to exchange cash for Lakewood dollars; in an effort use Lakewood Dollars for goods and services. He stated that when it came time to file taxes, the taxes would be paid in Federal currency.
Mr. Seelie indicated it would be discussed further in Committee.
Motion adopted. All members voting yea.
---- end ----
Frogtown Dollars or some such generic name would allow local communities besides Toledo to participate in the program. Just don't call it Toledo Dollars.
posted by jr at 12:25 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 29, 2006 #
Another Sarantou "Surprise" It's time for Show and Tell. Or maybe, it would be more aptly called Truth or Dare.
Take a look at the embedded link in the first sentence of this posting. the following comments are in regards to the article contained therein.
Johnny Appleseed liked to plant trees. George Sarantou appears to be planting doubt. Do you think that is or is not a correct assessment of George Sarantou's television ad?
From the Blade article, it would appear that maybe the Konop plan is a move toward Unigov. Or am I reading it wrong?
posted by RolandHansen at 08:58 A.M. EST on Thu Nov 02, 2006 #
Hey - I've got earlytimers here, can hardly remember my own kids names and have only lived in Toledo since '01. But even I know about Ben's relatives.....
Now whether or not that has bearing on his ability to perform in office is another matter.....but you can't deny your relatives. Trust me.
posted by katie82640 at 04:26 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 02, 2006 #
Sarantou's apple tree commercial.
posted by jr at 09:45 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 02, 2006 #
I am anxiously awaiting the decrease in my real estate property tax that Ben K promised during his campaign. What is the effective date of that decrease?
posted by RolandHansen at 06:20 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006 #
I don't think he gave a date. I believe his plan might take some time. It requires the consolidation of levies and the cooperation of all the boards that rely on levies. Then, once consolidated, the county will be able to more efficiently deliver services, therefore reducing their need to levy taxes on the public, therefore lowering property taxes. Methinks, Roland, that you knew Ben did not give a date.
posted by junta330 at 07:16 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006 #
I would prefer a raise in taxes as opposed to Sarantou holding an office. Good grief Toledo -wake up.
posted by Ampage at 08:48 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006 #
I actually think Sarantou would do a good job. But I think Ben would do a better job.
posted by junta330 at 09:03 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006 #
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