New version of Toledo Talk


    November 7, 2006

Election day open thread - For discussing whatever: voting bliss, disenfranchisement, election results, media coverage ...
posted by jr to politics at 5:13 A.M. EST     (324 Comments)


Comments ...


HOO Rah!! Last day of mudslinging on the radio, last day of automated phone calls, last day of crap in the mail... Yard signs will have to come down!!!

One thing tho, I heard again this year how they always need help at the polls. How is it that UAW workers get the day off, yet what percent of them volunteer, seeing as voting is so important to their union bosses?

posted by billy at 07:54 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I'm interested in knowing if the polling location on Glenwood is open now. Last time, the poll workers didn't get there 'til 9am.
posted by MrsPhoenix at 08:09 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



(repeats to self)

I will not watch continuous live election coverage...I will not watch continuous live election coverage...I will not watch continuous live election coverage...

(goes to watch continuous live election coverage)

posted by historymike at 08:12 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



voting downtown went smoothly - poll was open when I went it at 7:30, machines were running and the people were friendly.

Go vote

posted by Toledolaw05 at 08:23 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



posted by historymike:
(repeats to self)
I will not watch continuous live election coverage...I will not watch continuous live election coverage...I will not watch continuous live election coverage...
(goes to watch continuous live election coverage)


ROFLMAO

posted by RolandHansen at 08:48 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



It's raining......I refuse to vote when our government leaders can't even provide reasonable weather on election day.
posted by HeyHey at 09:05 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



It's all Bush's Fault LOL 8^D

.

posted by Darkseid at 09:08 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



It's all Bush's Fault

It is NOT! He was forced! They forced him to do it.

Poor George, all alone in the White House, surrounded by commies, pinkos and moonbats, fighting the good fight for all of us patriotic American citizens.

Which reminds me, the last time I voted some nut case girl with hardware on her face and a hospital bracelet on her wrist put the touch on me right outside the polling station for a sawbuck. She said she needed gas to get home. She had a boy friend riding shotgun and three snot noses in the back, so I forked it over. As I recall, it was raining that day and I felt a little sorry for the kids.

I'm going to vote this afternoon, then I'm headed for The Distillery and have a drink. I'll probably be there around 6:00 PM or so. Anyone else interested? Katie? GZ?

posted by madjack at 09:38 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



jack - Katie and I had already planned on being at the Distillery, but we won't be there till around 7:00 or so. So if you get a head start, just stay seated and make yourself at home. :))
posted by DoknowDocare at 09:56 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



How about 7? Does that work? Cause you don't want two redheads hunting you down :-)
posted by katie82640 at 09:59 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Well, here we go:

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/midterm_elections_2006

posted by McCaskey at 10:09 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Uh - oops....looks like Franklin Co' may need to work on voter education a tad bit?

"Election Day Calls Crash Franklin County Phone System
Nov 07 2006 10:10AM"

posted by katie82640 at 10:17 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #




posted by Darkseid at 10:59 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



My observation from the polling station that I go to in Sylvania is that people seemed to really dislike the touch-screen system. Some complained that all the candidates for an office were not on the same page. Others complained that compared to the good 'ol lever machines, these new fangled things gave them less privacy.

I wonder why we couldn't have retrofitted the old level machines to electronically transfer results? Were they too old to take it? jr, what's your take on this Diebold stuff? People were confused and the lines were long in the little Sylvania station that I was at. Granted... that was around 7:00AM when the rush was on?

posted by paulhem at 10:59 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I voted @ Friendship Baptist Church at around 7:35. No line; no waiting. Touch screen is a breeze, and I felt like I had enough privacy. Took 5 minutes to vote, including spitting out my card when the ballot was cast. I don't see what's so difficult about it...
posted by MrsPhoenix at 11:15 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



9:30 am, NorthPointe Church polling station.

I was number voter #84, and the election worker said it was "almost as busy" as 2004. There was a line of about 8 people, and a total of about 20 voters in the place.

Time from home to poll and back - 17 minutes (driving).

posted by historymike at 11:28 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



My son and I voted at St. Catherine's not more than 15 minutes ago. There was no line (I knew it would be short this time of day) and both of us had machines available to us as soon as we had signed the book.

I felt I had plenty of privacy and the touch screen was a piece of cake. I felt better knowing that a printed ballot was recorded, after hearing things about the lack of a paper trail.

The one thing I can see being a complaint for some: if you didn't do you research on the issues ahead of time and pretty much know how you were voting, trying to read the text on the screen would have been a pain in the ass.

Also, State Issue 1 was still presented, even though it wasn't officially on the ballot. I just skipped over it because I've been paying attention.

Interesting note: I had my driver's license ready and the woman checking IDs commented on that, that I knew what the new rules were. So, there must be a lot of people who haven't been paying attention. Big surprise there, eh?

posted by valbee at 11:32 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Oh, and historymike? I'm at work until midnight. So, could you watch the continuous live election coverage for me? ;)
posted by valbee at 11:34 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



My wife voted about 8 a.m. (I have not yet). We live in Sylvania. She said lines were long for Twp. residents and very short for City. She also said several people openly complaining about touch screens and poll workers not offering help (perhaps they're not allowed to beyond handing out instructions). She had picture ID ready to show; poll workers barely gave it a glance.
posted by McCaskey at 11:48 A.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Voted absentee, nice and dry, with a cup of coffee at the kitchen table, cost $1.17 for two rounds of postage. Time - priceless.
posted by holland at 12:23 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



No problems today in my precinct downtown, a few minutes waiting but nothing that made me feel disenfranchised lol. At least one of the women working though looked to be in her 40's which is a great sign as usually i've had older staffers here. no exit polling though since the rain keeps the animals inside.
posted by buttonpusher at 12:31 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Took about 25 minutes in Point Place – it was nice to see lots of people there.

I wish they didn’t indicate what party a candidate is affiliated with on the ballot. I hate party voting. Had a nice mix of both this year as my choices.

posted by Ampage at 12:37 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Voted about 10:15 at the Eleanor Kahle (sp?) center. (Willys Park) Had about a 10 minute wait which is unusual there. Touch-screen was easy and quick. There were a couple of elderly people that needed help with the machines. Also, heard a few people complaining about showing their ID.

Also, enjoyed the rain as nobody was throwing pamphlets to me as I walked in the door.

posted by aperson at 12:39 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



35-40 minutes at the Fraternal Order of Police (busiest I've ever seen it). Also, I heard from someone that while she was a waiting, they turned a nun away for not having ID.
posted by junta330 at 12:39 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I am sure she will sue! LOL!
posted by Ampage at 12:46 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



7:30 am, Sylvania Southview HS. Ten minute wait tops. People complaining about the wait and about the touchscreens. Soon, however, those people will die and we won't have to suffer their whining anymore and we can just move on - doing things infinitely more efficiently than before. I walked up to the terminal and completed my voting in minutes.

The paper printout is stupid. It is a waste of product development dollars, an unecessary increas in complexity for the system and a waste of time while voting because you have to sit there and wait for each page to print out before you can actually cast the ballot. If there will be fraud, the paper trail will not stop anything. The reason for the paper trail is the whiners and their fear and loating of technology. Again, when those people go away we can shitcan the so called paper trail.

Regarding privacy, if that is the only problem, it seems like it would be easier to put up curtain partitions between terminals than retrofit the old machines for god's sake. The old machines don't have a monopoly on the use of curtains.

Presenting my ID was a lot easier too. I didn't have to say my name 3 times and spell it 6 times - they just took the card and used it to look me up - way easier.

posted by babbleman at 01:39 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



They turned a nun away. Wow.

Does anybody else see pictures in the press of voters at voting machines? I wouldn't be comfortable with that - I had always thought it was a private process.

As a matter of fact, taking my kids two years ago I had to tell the poll workers why I was taking them to watch me vote - they were asked to wait out in the hall. But I wanted them there at the machine so they could see it and not be intimidated by the idea later on. I've always taken the kids.

posted by katie82640 at 01:50 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Mine went okay with the help of a supervisor since I don't drive and the first poll worker was a bit confused as to whether I had what was required to prove who I was...however, I've had two people post on my blog that they were not even asked for any ID at all. Both of them I know, one is my daughter...

There was no waiting at my precinct in South Toledo there was a flow of people coming in and out but not enough to cause more than a moment or two of a wait.

I was surprised there was only one volunteer from the Democratic Party there - no other volunteers from candidates or the Republican party or for any of the issues. That's different than my previous polling location where there were always a group of volunteers handing out campaign material.

posted by psyche777 at 01:53 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I'd point out that the Nun should have been allowed to cast a provisional ballot...rather than be turned away - hopefully she had ID at home and was going back to get it then return.
posted by psyche777 at 01:54 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I find this troubling - particulary this first one. From the Cleveland area....

This is a four day old story -
CLEVELAND -- 5 On Your Side Investigator Duane Pohlman finds that there are several votes being cast by citizens who are dead.

Among thousands of graves at Holy Cross Cemetery, Pohlman found the final resting place of Edward Wisniewski.

John Wisniewski lived next door to his brother for decades.

John Wisniewski said Edward Wisniewski has been buried at the cemetery since 2002. According to an election sign-in sheet, he cast a vote in the May primary.

This story was updated yesterday:

"Investigation: Nearly 13,000 Dead Voters Still On Registry"

posted by katie82640 at 02:10 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Dear Junta:

Good news bad news. Good news: I voted. Bad news: My vote cancels yours out.

hehehe - I can't wait for the kids to get their slot machine scholarships and for Ben Konop to run for some other office in some other county in 2 years...

Best regards!

posted by UTStudent at 02:24 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



7:30 am, Sylvania Southview HS. Ten minute wait tops. People complaining about the wait and about the touchscreens. Soon, however, those people will die and we won't have to suffer their whining anymore and we can just move on
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

JESUS!! Your compassion for your fellow man overwhelms me, Babble. It's self-centered jackoffs like you that give conservatives/traditionalists a bad name.


.

posted by Darkseid at 02:31 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



two thoughts:

First, I will be so glad after the elections. Every ad I've seen promises everything to be much better if they are elected. I'm sure once all the votes are in, the ultility bills will go down, the economy will boom and I'll get a call informing me that I got a pay raise. Heck, I bet even gas will drop to $1 a gallon. Quick question, has anything gotten better after any election??? I can't remember when.

Second, I went to vote at an electronic machine today and had nothing but trouble. First, it was in the rain, second, all it kept asking was spanish or english. Then, it wanted me to insert my card??? After pressing various buttons the person behind me informed me that I was indeed not at a polling location, but instead I found myself at a local ATM. Whoops. I told him that I thought that I'd save the politicians the trouble and just directly transfer the money to them without going through the drawn out election night results.
Have a good election day.

posted by tommy1 at 02:50 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I had to cast a provisional ballot since I was somehow removed from the registration list. Voted at the same place I did in '04, lived at my current address since '03, and according to them, I was at the right place. I had to re-register. The woman told me that this happened to "a couple of people" before I got there.

Anyone else have this problem?

posted by MT1973 at 02:56 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Hey UTURDstudent,

A little cocky seeing as how you'll look real stupid in about 5-8 hours. Spaz.

posted by junta330 at 02:58 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



lol - come now junta, I'll buy you a nice bottle of tequila to console you after your horse loses* You drink the one in the plastic bottle with the screw cap right?

*This offer was made in the form of a joke and there is no consideration so it is not binding on the one who made it

posted by UTStudent at 03:11 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Seriously though, Sandy is gonna beat the crap out of her lapdog if he loses...
posted by UTStudent at 03:13 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



lol - come now junta, I'll buy you a nice bottle of tequila to console you after your horse loses* You drink the one in the plastic bottle with the screw cap right?

*This offer was made in the form of a joke and there is no consideration so it is not binding on the one who made it


There was no consideration in the first place so the disclaimer wasn't nessisary. As a matter of fact, it didnt even sound like an offer. What year are you again? I thought contracts was a first year class?

posted by tm at 03:19 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



It was a joke for junta's consumption - he should know I'd never offer him intoxicants to console him
posted by UTStudent at 03:21 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



JESUS!! Your compassion for your fellow man overwhelms me, Babble. It's self-centered jackoffs like you that give conservatives/traditionalists a bad name.

Here f*cking here.

posted by McCaskey at 03:21 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



By the way tm, a spell check is very nessisary for you, very very nessisary
posted by UTStudent at 03:21 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Few thoughts;
1. Hey I vote at the same place as valbee. :-)

2. My pet peeve about polling places-people should NOT be allowed to force you to walk a "gauntlet line" of folks shoving pamphlets at you. If you can be influenced at the last second by a piece of paper, you're too dumb to vote.

3. Americans should be embarassed by our pathetically low voter turnout. There are people in countries that not only wait for hours to vote, the risk death by doing so. Here the turnout drops if it rains for God sake.

Vote, if you don't vote, no bitching allowed. If you do vote, bitch till your hearts content, it's your right.

posted by JeepMaker at 03:33 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



By the way tm, a spell check is very nessisary for you, very very nessisary

Thats your reply? Thats the best you could do? HA!!

if thats the best argument you can make regarding my reply, well then maybe you should switch majors. 8-)

posted by tm at 03:34 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



TM, just ignore UTURDStudent. He's a troll of the worst kind.
posted by junta330 at 03:44 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



The trollingest troll that ever trolled.

In other news...

Go Ben, it’s your birthday!!!!!!!!

posted by Ampage at 03:56 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



People complaining about...the touchscreens. Soon, however, those people will die and we won't have to suffer their whining anymore and we can just move on...

JESUS!! Your compassion for your fellow man overwhelms me, Babble.

What does the fact that people are whining have to do with my compassion? Are they not whining? When they die will they not then be not whining? As younger people move into the polls will they not be not whining because there isn't any change for them to resist?

I mean, these are all simple facts. How did you ever make the leap to assigning compassion or lack there of to my observations of them?

posted by babbleman at 04:03 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Just got back from voting. No problems. Touch-screen very easy, IMO.

Walked away knowing all my votes at least cancelled out those of AssBabble.

posted by McCaskey at 04:07 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Ah, feel the love. I cannot wait to get home, pour a big glass of grapes and hunker down in front of the boob tube coverage.

It’s almost as exciting as the season finale of American Idol.

posted by Ampage at 04:14 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Faux News can't even bring themselves to admit which party is in the lead:


posted by anonymouscoward at 04:19 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Unreal. Just checked CNN.com and here, on one of the most important of days, they have a "breaking news" banner at the top with Brittany Spears divorcing her husband. What frigging news editor moron would make that decision?

Hey, MikeyA, maybe I will switch to Fox, LOL.

posted by McCaskey at 04:20 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Vote, if you don't vote, no bitching allowed.

Can some intellectual with too much time on their hands provide some interesting foundational premises as to why, if someone has not paid taxes, they should be allowed to vote?

I mean, taxation without representation is a fundamental premise. So why not the other way round? If you don't pay taxes, why should you have representation?

I am not suggesting that the number of votes you get should be proportional to what you pay. Just that if you pay nothing you shouldn't get to vote.

posted by babbleman at 04:20 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I vote at the church near the corner of Detroit on Byrne. No waiting to speak of. Touchscreen - really easy - although you do need to flip back and forth on a couple of things to see all the choices. If a person didn't use a computer or the internet it might be a learning curve.

Poll workers very nice - per usual.

posted by katie82640 at 04:21 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



AC, long time no see. Good to see you back. I'm sure everyone here agrees, LOL.
posted by McCaskey at 04:23 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Unreal. Just checked CNN.com and here, on one of the most important of days, they have a "breaking news" banner at the top with Brittany Spears divorcing her husband. What frigging news editor moron would make that decision?

Voting/politics doesn't appeal to the "money demo[graphic]". Celebrity trailer trash divorcing her celebrity redneck husband does.

posted by anonymouscoward at 04:26 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



TM - if you're going to insult someone for a joke and attack their education then spell things correctly. The joke was that I made a disclaimer at all to guard against any spurious legal claims from JCunta, because he has nothing better to do with his time than swill tequila, support his boyfriend BK and make meritless legal claims...

Ah, but what is it that they say about dissecting jokes...

posted by UTStudent at 04:33 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/07/sanford.votes/index.html

Video on CNN.com is hilarious. Turn up the volume; little hard to hear otherwise.

posted by McCaskey at 04:34 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



AC, long time no see. Good to see you back. I'm sure everyone here agrees, LOL.

Yeah. For the sake of everyone, I decided to pass up the great opportunity of $15/hr + mileage + $105 per diem I was offered by several information technology "recruiters" to spend the past two months through today working for a certain company located in North Canton whose (former?) president promised to deliver Ohio's electoral vote to Bush back in late 2003. You know, the one whose name begins with D and whose voting equipment is performing flawlessly up in Cleveland.

I'm sure everyone here will sleep easier knowing that I chose to be poor rather than to work for D------ where I would have had unsupervised access to insecure voting machines.

posted by anonymouscoward at 04:37 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I voted midday. I moved into Toledo in September 2001. I didn't vote that fall, but I've voted every November since, all at DeVeaux Junior High. And as usual, the operation today was smooth, and the poll workers great.

When I voted today, the only campaign supporter standing outside in the rain was a person for the zoo levy.

Around 15 voters were inside. One precinct table had a line of several people, but my table had no line, and I had no wait for the machine.

I asked the poll worker if there had been any issues with requiring voter ID, and she said no. The other poll worker seemed to like the ID requirement.

I handed the poll worker my "Notice of Election" card from the Lucas County BOE, so the person could look me up in the book. Then the poll worker asked for my driver's license.

I like voting on the touchscreens. Pressing buttons, flipping back and forth through the screens, changing colors and text size, the usual playing around.

This is the third November election that I have voted on the computer touchscreens. DeVeaux offered one touchscreen in 2003. The other option that year was the lever machines, I think. The 2003 touchscreen version didn't have the paper tape to view.

Anyway, in 2003, no wait existed for the other voting option, but several of us waited a while to use the touchscreen. 2003 was the only time I have had to wait to vote, and that was by choice. In 2004, the touchscreen wasn't offered. I think for the presidential election we filled in ovals with a pencil and fed our ballot into a shredder. Then in November 2005, we went back to the touchscreens, hopefully for good.

posted by jr at 04:39 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



touchscreen was very easy. i went this morning (8:00) to the pelham manor location (old orchard area)and there was a 10 minute wait. there weren't too many people, but folks were just taking a long time at the machines.
posted by wholesaler1972 at 04:39 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Could be a long night:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061107/ap_on_el_ge/eln_voting_problems

posted by McCaskey at 04:53 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Enjoy your D------ touchscreens. Ottawa County has ES&S optical scan. My vote can actually be physically viewed and counted.
posted by anonymouscoward at 05:00 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Right-wing radio host encourages listeners to jam Democrat voter hotline
posted by anonymouscoward at 05:04 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I voted at Ottawa River Elementary and while the stream of voters was steady, there were no hiccups. Poll workers told me that there had been a steady stream of folks all day and I noticed that there were lots of signatures when the worker was flipping through the book looking for my name.

The touch screens are great. As with most things that involve change there will always be those that wish "for the good old days" because they are leaving their comfort zones.

posted by DoknowDocare at 05:04 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



The touch screens are great. As with most things that involve change there will always be those that wish "for the good old days" because they are leaving their comfort zones.

Touch screen voting is fine by me, I just think they HAVE to print paper results, and that a PUBLIC hand count of the paper trail MUST be used for the CERTIFIED tally. Anything less is putting the fate of the nation in the hands of the voting machine company, a "31337 h4x0r", or anyone with any amount of access to the machines, the memory cards, the tabulator, etc.

posted by anonymouscoward at 05:21 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



My daughter voted in a Sylvania precinct (church). According to her the Coach bag, Manolo Blahnik clad lady voting at the machine next to her insisted the poll workers "clean the smudgy screen" and show her where into the machine to insert the card. The very patient poll worker wiped the screen and assisted the lady with the card. Hats off to the poll workers.
posted by holland at 05:26 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



As to voting methods, a replacement some support over everything else is Vote by Mail.

November 2004 story:

"From our Oregon perch, we have looked on the controversies surrounding voting in Florida, Ohio and elsewhere with a mixture of bemusement and horror because we do things very differently here."

"We vote entirely by mail. Polling places do not exist and Election Day is merely a deadline to turn in your ballot. It's been that way since 1998 when nearly 70 percent of Oregonians approved the Vote by Mail initiative."

"Oregon's Vote by Mail system is simple and straightforward. Ballots are mailed 14 to 18 days before an election to the registered address of the voter; the voter has two weeks to return the ballot through the mail or by dropping it off at official drop-off sites. The voter must sign the outside of the envelope (the ballot is sealed in a separate envelope inside) and that signature is checked against the signature on file with the elections division."

"The advantages of conducting elections entirely by mail are clear:"


# Voter participation: It increases turnout -- 84 percent of registered Oregonians voted [in 2004].

# Convenience: People can vote according to their schedule.

# Education: People have time to study issues and candidates before voting.

# Fraud protection: It has built-in safeguards that increase the integrity of the elections process.

# Built-in paper trail.

# Voter eligibility: Built-in time to resolve disputes.

# Actual results are released when polls close as opposed to unreliable "exit polls."

# Financial: It saves money.

posted by jr at 05:36 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Voted at Sylvan Elementary-Sylvania, right after work.

Voting in the '04 election was walk right in, no lines, no people. This year a short wait, 6 touchscreens. Good! People are voting. No time at all for me, had a index card filled out. Standing in front of the machine is no time for debate.

posted by Bruno at 05:41 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



jr, what type of safeguards are used to prevent fraud?
posted by wholesaler1972 at 05:41 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Due to the popularity of Ohio's new “No-fault” absentee voting, maybe voting entirely by mail is a possibility.
posted by jr at 05:50 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #




Ken Blackwell outsources Ohio Election Results to GOP operatives???!?!?

posted by anonymouscoward at 06:01 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Can some intellectual with too much time on their hands provide some interesting foundational premises as to why, if someone has not paid taxes, they should be allowed to vote?

Ah-Hem.
Hey GZ, You're On!

posted by madjack at 06:06 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



AC?! Alright, who left the cage door open... McCaskey?
posted by madjack at 06:07 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



why, if someone has not paid taxes, they should be allowed to vote?

That depends. Do you include people who have no tax liability, or are you just talking about people who owe Uncle Sam and don't pay?

posted by anonymouscoward at 06:10 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



"what type of safeguards are used to prevent fraud?"

According to the campaign manager for Oregon's 1998 Vote by Mail initiative:

What do you do with the ballot?

You fill out your ballot and then place it in the secrecy envelope. You place the secrecy envelope in the return envelope. You sign the back of your return envelope swearing you are who you are.

You then can either mail the ballot in or drop it off at county elections offices or the numerous official drop off sites around the county like libraries, public squares, supermarkets etc.

For those looking for a more traditional voting experience can head to their county elections office where actual ballot booths are still available. The mechanics of the voting system are the same


Great you voted, but what happens then?

When your ballot is received at the elections office they first check your signature. All voter registration cards in Oregon are scanned into a statewide voter file. The county elections staff call up each ballot received to check the signature versus the registration card.


How do they know who you are?

Next to your signature on the back of the return envelope is your basic info and a barcode so that they can quickly pull up your registration card.

If the signature matches then you are marked as voted in the system and the secrecy envelope containing your ballot is removed and stored in a secure location. The secrecy envelopes are NOT opened until election day.

If the signature does not match then the county elections officials calls you and ask you to come down to the elections office to double check your signature and verify the ballot.


When are the ballots counted?

As I previously stated they are stored in a secure location until election day. On election day they begin counting ballots at 8:00 a.m. This means that many times by the times "polls" close at 8:00 p.m results are almost immediately available.


----------


According to the Lucas County BOE:

"Your written application for the absentee ballot need not be in any particular form, but it must contain all of the following information:"

1. Your name;
2. Your signature;
3. The address at which you are registered to vote;
4. Your date of birth;
5. One of the following:
1. Your Ohio driver's license number; or
2. The last four digits of your Social Security number; or
3. A copy of your current and valid photo identification, military identification, current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows your name and current address.
(Note: You cannot use as proof of identification a notice that the board of elections mailed to you.)
6. A statement identifying the election for which you are requesting an absentee voter's ballot;
7. A statement that you are a qualified elector;
8. If the request is for a partisan primary election ballot, your political party affiliation; and
9. If you want the ballots to be mailed, the address to which you want them mailed.


----------

Seems like the concepts of Oregon's Vote by Mail and Ohio's No-fault absentee voting could be combined to create a simple, secure, and inexpensive voting system.

posted by jr at 06:18 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Check the headlines at the top of the Drudge Report

* Voting Machines Woes Cause Early Delays
* Polls ordered to stay open late in Indiana
* Denver: Problems
* Fixing charges fly in Utah town
* KY Poll Worker Charged With 'Choking Voter'
* 100s Get Wrong Ballots In Central Florida
* Dem lawyers in TN going to court to keep polls open late
* BOMB THREAT: WISCONSIN
* RAGE: Man Smashes Touchscreen in PA

Man, my voting precinct wasn't that exciting. Choking and smashing, sounds like pro wrestling. What a hoot.

And I wonder if Oregon is once again looking at all of this with bemusement?

posted by jr at 06:27 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Exit poll numbers for the Senate races are favorable for the Dems. What a shock. Two years ago, these "numbers" showed Kerry winning easily.

Democrats leading
Virginia (52-47)
Rhode Island (53-46)
Penn (57-42)
Ohio (57-43)
New Jersey 52-45
Montana 53-46
Missouri 50-48
Maryland 53-46

Republicans leading
Tennessee 51-48
Arizone 50-46

posted by jr at 06:30 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



AC?! Alright, who left the cage door open... McCaskey?

Hey, it's election night, gotta give him a pass.

posted by McCaskey at 06:44 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



The touch screens are great. As with most things that involve change there will always be those that wish "for the good old days" because they are leaving their comfort zones.
Ouch!!! posted by DoknowDocare at 05:04 P.M. EDT on Tue Nov 07, 2006 #
---------------------------------------------

Bullshit. "Comfort zone" has nothing to do with it-my complaint has always been-there's no paper trail. Also, they screw up a hell of a lot more than the old manual lever jobs.

posted by Darkseid at 06:44 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



MT1973, you can call ABLE at 419-255-0814, who is working with PFAW and other on non-partisan Election Protection. They may be able to help you figure out why your name wasn't on the registration rolls.
posted by ifXthenWhyNot at 06:46 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Ohhhh -- Hurt the knee sunday with a poor estimate on the Wabash Cannonball trail as to when I'd be 'half' tired...

Voting at St Clement's on Tremainsville was an hour long standin on the concrete.

Oh well, I heard at other precints folks had to wait in the rain.

posted by billy at 06:47 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Polls are supposed to stay open until 10pm in Cuyahoga County if these reports are right... go go D------ machines for failing to start on time.... and we'll see if Blackwell will start the counting at 7:30 or 10pm
posted by anonymouscoward at 06:47 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



National Hotlines:

1-866-OUR VOTE (1-866-687-8683)

1-888-DEMVOTE (1-888-336-8683) (DNC hotline)

1-888-SAV-VOTE (1-888-728-8683)(voting machine problems)

posted by anonymouscoward at 06:48 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



http://www.newsnet5.com/politics/10262102/detail.html
http://www.newsnet5.com/politics/10266536/detail.html

http://www.onnnews.com/?sec=&story=sites/10tv/content/pool/200611/1944340540.html

posted by anonymouscoward at 06:54 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Can some intellectual with too much time on their hands provide some interesting foundational premises as to why, if someone has not paid taxes, they should be allowed to vote?

So if theyre on the public dole and pay no taxes, they should be able to vote themselves a raise, at the cost of those who do pay taxes?

Mmmm - not so much. I think you should at least have to run for office to get a deal like that.

posted by billy at 07:00 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



An Oregon study (PDF file) about Oregon's Vote by Mail:

"Oregon has historically had a clean, open, and permeable election system, with no history of machine politics or election fraud. Oregon election officials remain proud of their non-partisan tradition. The implication is that while voting by mail has worked well in Oregon, it may not work as well in regions, states, or localities with a more contentious political culture."


A commenter in the Vote by Mail thread at Daily Kos said:

"I mean, come on! Nothing's foolproof. But VBM is pretty fucking fool-resistant compared to, say, Diebold paperless voting."

I guess training poll workers and voters to use computer equipment one day out of the year and expecting the computer hardware and software to function 100% may be asking too much.

posted by jr at 07:13 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Sixteen polling locations where earlier voting machine problems caused delays and where waits were an hour or more must stay open an extra 90 minutes, a federal judge ruled late today.

U.S. District Court Judge Dan A. Polster made the ruling after the Ohio Democratic Party sued Cuyahoga County in an attempt to get the hours extended beyond the scheduled 7:30 p.m. closing time.

The polling places are in Cleveland and the city’s eastern suburbs.

Cuyahoga elections chief Michael Vu said that the board was notifying poll workers to continue operating until 9 p.m.

posted by anonymouscoward at 07:16 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I guess training poll workers and voters to use computer equipment one day out of the year and expecting the computer hardware and software to function 100% may be asking too much.

Given your average poll worker is a blue-haired great-grandma, given the amount and quality of training they get on the new systems and regulations is near zero, and given that the hardware and software pretty much suck... it probably is asking too much.

posted by anonymouscoward at 07:19 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



This guy must've left his 'comfort zone' a long time ago LOL
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Voter Smashes Touch-Screen Voting Machine in Allentown (PA)
Allentown Call-Chronicle ^


A man who reportedly believed Republicans were conspiring to steal today's election entered an Allentown polling site, signed in and proceeded to smash the screen of one of the electronic voting machines with a metal cat paperweight, poll volunteers said.

Michael Young, 43, of 375 Auburn St., will be charged with felony criminal mischief and tampering with voting machines, according to Ronald Manescu, chief of investigations for Allentown police.

"He smashed it with the cat's ears," said volunteer Jim Govostis, who watched the incident unfold at Raker Center, a nursing home owned by Good Shepherd, around 12:30 p.m.

Young, who brought the paperweight with him, then sat down, hung his head and waited for police, who arrested him without incident.

.

posted by Darkseid at 07:26 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



A man who reportedly believed Republicans were conspiring to steal today's election entered an Allentown polling site, signed in and proceeded to smash the screen of one of the electronic voting machines with a metal cat paperweight, poll volunteers said.

are we really sure that wasn't howard dean?!?

posted by wholesaler1972 at 07:29 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



The Election Incident Reporting System website is mapping voting problems, but the site hasn't been functioning normally this afternoon due to traffic volume.

Ohio, Pennsylvania, and California are in the red, which means those states have logged the most problems. Within Ohio, the populated counties of Cuyahoga, Franklin, Montgomery, and Hamilton are in the red. The map showed more info earlier in the day, such as the number of incidents reported per county.

posted by jr at 07:31 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



It's announced that Strickland is elected governor.
posted by jr at 07:37 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I like how it's reported:

Strickland - Winner 0%
Blackwell 0%
Fitrakis 0%
Peirce 0%

0 precincts reporting

Must have been a rock-paper-scissors tourney.

posted by jr at 07:42 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



It's announced that Strickland is elected governor.

No, Corporate News Network amongst others project Strickland is elected. I'm not falling for this shit again; I remember NBC uncalling Florida for Chimpy McFlightsuit. Unless they show him with a commanding lead with 75-80% of precincts reporting, I won't be doing the happy dance.

posted by anonymouscoward at 07:43 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



If I recall 2004, Blackwell ordered counting not to start until all precincts were closed... and they won't be until 9pm, unless we happen to have Another Massive Fuck-Up.
posted by anonymouscoward at 07:45 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



back a little bit ago from voting (downtown toledo). they had two diebold machines. both had a paper printout you could read through a plastic window... a pleasant surprise.
posted by jhostetler at 07:48 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Election Results Reporting
The United States District Court has issued an order requiring the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections to extend the hours of voting to 9 p.m. E.S.T at polling places designated in the court order. As a result of the court's order, ALL 88 county Boards of Elections have been directed not to report any election results to the public or the Ohio Secretary of State's office until 9 p.m.; therefore, the Ohio Secretary of State's office Web site will not report results until 9 p.m.

posted by anonymouscoward at 07:51 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I voted at Holy Trinity this afternoon, nice turnout, I think I was number 90-something, no problems. My husband went this evening at 6:40p.m. and there were about 100-150 in line to vote, poll workers were giving people the option to either wait for the machines (I think there were 10 of them, maybe a few more) or complete a paper ballot. He made sure to ask that it would be counted tonight, which they said it would, and he used a paper ballot. They locked the doors at 7:30 with many people still in line. He's just getting home now.

DARNIT I wish I saw that you ladies & madjack were going to Jim's establishment! I haven't been there in a LOOOONG time. And although I can't have a drink with you (baby on the way) I sure enjoy your company! have fun!!

posted by gotoledogo at 07:55 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Lake County did not get the memo. They're reporting numbers despite Blackwell's decree.
posted by anonymouscoward at 08:02 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



(laughs at the "Chimpy McFlightsuit" crack)
posted by historymike at 08:07 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



The CNN projection page. They're projecting Issue 2 has passed.
posted by jr at 08:10 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



CNN could project the sky being blue and blood being red, and I'd still tell 'em where to put their projections.
posted by anonymouscoward at 08:15 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



ABC News tally for Ohio:

Strickland Dem 6004 66% Winner
Blackwell Rep 2782 31%
Peirce Ind 218 2%
Fitrakis Ind 81 1%

Brown Dem 5162 57%
DeWine Rep* 3972 43%

AM 950 WWJ announced that Brown has been "declared" the winner over DeWine.

WTOL is reporting numbers for statewide elections with 1% of the precincts reporting.

Issue 4 is getting trounced while Issue 5 is easily winning. Again, only 1% reporting.

posted by jr at 08:16 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



CBS just called Pennsylvania for Bob Casey. That's two Dem Senate pickups, but this and Brown were the easy projections and pretty much the done deals for the Democrats.

Michigan governor Granholm is apparently winning easy.

posted by jr at 08:22 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



This was the longest I think I ever had to wait to vote, between 45 and 60 minutes.

What kills me though, is while you wait, you see people that take like 15-20 minutes at the touch screen to vote. I get up there and I'm done in 3.

Don't people have any idea what the various issues are about ahead of time?

posted by JeepMaker at 08:28 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



A close one in Virginia:

Webb Dem 50%
Allen Rep* 49%
Parker IG 1%

41% of precincts reporting

posted by jr at 08:28 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I love how people are already calling elections based on exit polling. Because we all learned our lesson from '00 and '04, right?
posted by TheTalentedMrC at 08:33 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I agree - if the polls are still open there should be no predictions and no declared winners. Nor do I believe a winner should be declared with 1% of the vote counted...
posted by psyche777 at 08:36 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Don't people have any idea what the various issues are about ahead of time?

Jeep, I think it might be more a case of people being extra-cautious with voting apparatus they're not familiar with...particularly the 50-plus crowd...

posted by McCaskey at 08:44 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Apparently, some of the early numbers are from absentee ballots that came out before the ruling that said no results until all polls are closed at 9:00 p.m.
posted by jr at 09:00 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Blackwell has conceded, but the DeWine camp says "not so fast."
posted by jr at 09:04 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



anyone else watching the rockets' game?
posted by wholesaler1972 at 09:11 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



In CT, Lieberman has been declared the winner over Lamont with only 2% of the precincts reporting.
posted by jr at 09:13 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



anyone else watching the rockets' game?

They're playing in a fog tonight....sorta like the Republicans...

posted by McCaskey at 09:16 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Have we ever seen a candidate concede with 1% of the vote counted? I realize the percentages but it seems really early for a concession.
posted by gotoledogo at 09:27 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



A close Senate race in Virginia. Allen has maintained a 1% lead for most the evening.

Allen Rep* 827814 50%
Webb Dem 813608 49%
Parker IG 18258 1%

I checked with my cat, Comet, and he has declared Parker the winner. So, yeah, those exit polls may not be accurate.

posted by jr at 09:28 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



They're playing in a fog tonight....sorta like the Republicans

mccaskey, very clever.

posted by wholesaler1972 at 09:29 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



DeWine is not giving up yet.

With 11% of the precincts reporting:
Brown 55%
DeWine 45%

In the Virginia race above, that's with 74% of the precincts reporting.

posted by jr at 09:31 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Looks like all my peeps - Strickland, Brown and Konop are winners as well as issues 2, 3, 4, and 5.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

posted by Ampage at 09:40 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Another Democrat Senate pickup. That's three. This time in Rhode Island as the liberal Republican incumbent Chafee gets smoked by a dude named Whitehouse. That Virginia race is huge for the Republicans. Looks like Republican Allen will hang on, but it's not over yet.

The only Senate race I'm really interested in is in Montana, as I'd like to see challenger Tester (D) defeat Burns (R).

posted by jr at 09:42 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Looks like all my peeps - Strickland, Brown and Konop are winners as well as issues 2, 3, 4, and 5.

Issue 4 is winning? Because if so, doesn't really matter about 5.

posted by McCaskey at 09:47 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



From what I see, Issue 4 is getting pounded while Issue 5 has a comfortable lead.
posted by jr at 09:49 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



OK, thanks, jr. By the way, great job tonight on the updates...
posted by McCaskey at 09:50 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



With 2% of the precincts reporting, Konop leads Sarantou by a 2 to 1 margin.

You can view the Lucas Count BOE results via this glorious, fucking PDF file. While the rest of the world or at least the part worth anything uses web-based pages to update results, we're stuck with a damn Acrobat file.

If there any tech people in Lucas County, do you think it would be possible to create a web-based system to display results by next year or at least by 2008?

posted by jr at 09:54 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Yuck...did you idiots really vote for that cross-eyed know-nothing idiot Konop?
posted by UTStudent at 10:19 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



You're done here, UTStudent, if that's the best you can do.
posted by jr at 10:26 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Well, looks like all 4 levies are passing...as a homeowner who voted NO, that SUCKS!!!

:-(

*vent over*

posted by MrsPhoenix at 10:32 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



i've always wanted to move to MI. those levies (along w/ issues 2,4,5) might have just convinced my wife as well.
posted by wholesaler1972 at 10:35 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



thanks, ifxthenwhynot. I called ABLE and the guy I spoke to said the situation was "peculiar," and "worth looking into." I'm thinking it's some bizarre clerical oversight--I'm not thinking my provisional ballot went straight to a paper shredder or anything--and I'm generally pleased with the results of today's elections.
posted by MT1973 at 10:38 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



If a tax is levied, and there's no one to pay it, does it make money?

Very zen.

posted by TheTalentedMrC at 10:50 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Voted at Timberstone Jr High (Sylvania) - pleasantly surprised at how the process went. Waited for my husband to get home from work to go, so we were at the tail end before the polls closed (arrived at 7:10 pm). I was concerned that our late arrival might mean a long line, but it only took approximately 25 minutes. (And actually, if people were prepared and knew who/what they were going to vote for before heading up to the machine, it probably would have taken a lot less time.)

6 machines total at that precinct, and the line seemed to move pretty quickly. I overheard the 2 poll workers who handed the electronic cards to us comment that over 600 people had voted at Timberstone that day. I'm not sure exactly how many people were registered at that location, but it sounds like it was a good turnout to me.

P.S. I like the touchscreen machines and didn't think there was any problem with privacy, at least not the way the set up was at Timberstone.

posted by mom2 at 10:55 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



McCaskey sorry to break your heart but tomorrow's FoxNews story about the Brittany/Federline divorce is "What schmuck will take sloppy seconds to Kevin Federline?"

All I can say is I think I'd rather get with Pam Anderson, hepatitis and all, instead of Brittney.

posted by MikeyA at 11:16 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



Dems need 15 to take the House and 6 to take the Senate.
Thus far, the net gains for the Democrats:
- Senate : 3
- House : 13


In the Virginia Senate race with 97% of the precincts reporting:

Allen Rep* 1111589 50%
Webb Dem 1100333 49%
Parker IG 24652 1%

posted by jr at 11:20 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



The Dems have their 15 House seats.
posted by jr at 11:28 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



I hear ya Mikey...
posted by McCaskey at 11:45 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



In Virginia with 99% of the precincts reporting:

Webb Dem 1141052 50%
Allen Rep* 1138676 49%
Parker IG 25512 1%


Montana with 9% of the precincts reporting:

Tester Dem 27336 51%
Burns Rep* 24737 47%
Jones Lib 1199 2%

posted by jr at 11:54 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



The UAW was all abuzz tonight. The air was rife with victory. Lots of folks - lots of media,

The Distillery celebrated its 18th Anniversary, and as always Jim and his wife were most gracious hosts. Thank you both!

posted by DoknowDocare at 11:55 P.M. EST on Tue Nov 07, 2006     #



While I disagreed with Jim on issues 4 and 5 (and voted so) I'm sure the Distillery will rock on.
posted by McCaskey at 12:05 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Precincts Reporting: 70.90%

Attorney General
Dann, Marc Democratic 50.93%
Montgomery, Betty Republican 49.07%

Auditor of State
Taylor, Mary Republican 52.05%
Sykes, Barbara Democratic 47.95%

Secretary of State
Brunner, Jennifer L. Democratic 53.08%
Hartmann, Greg Republican 42.36%

Treasurer of State
Cordray, Richard Democratic 56.19%
O'Brien, Sandra Republican 43.81%

posted by jr at 12:11 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Great work JR! While most of here at Toledo Talk might not agree on everything, at least we all agree that democracy is a great thing. As for the smoking ban issues, I'm confident that the businesses and their customers will adjust. Indeed, they might enjoy clean air. Dems take the house, UTURDStudent is removed from this site, and overall good night.
posted by junta330 at 12:15 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



overall good night

Make that a GREAT night overall and it's not over...keep watching the Senate. That would be the proverbial icing on the cake.

posted by McCaskey at 12:20 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Dems take the house, UTURDStudent is removed from this site, and overall good night.

Amen to that.

Nice work today, jr.

posted by MT1973 at 12:22 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



The Democrats will win more House seats than I expected. Already, the Dems have a net gain in the House of 21 seats. The Dems may end up gaining around 30 seats.

Democrats are still holding at 3 new seats in the Senate, but the Democrats have gained 6 governorships.

It looks like the Republicans will hold their Senate seats in Tennessee, Arizona, and Missouri, which means the Democrats will not be able to take control of the Senate.

I think Virginia is too close to be decided tonight. That state may need a couple of days to finalize results. The Democrat challenger holds a tiny lead.

The Dems are leading the Montana Senate race, but it's still early there.

Montana with 29% of precincts reporting
Tester Dem 71198 54%
Burns Rep* 57394 44%
Jones Lib 2970 2%

posted by jr at 12:38 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Spoke too soon for Missouri as that race has tightened. Actually, it's now flipped in favor of the Democrat.

80% of precincts reporting

McCaskill Dem 813003 49%
Talent Rep* 799007 48%

posted by jr at 01:07 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



The latest results from the Lucas County BOE as of 1:01 a.m. :

Toledo City Council At Large Seat - 71% precincts reporting

- McNamara 15468 34.06%

- Santiago 13661 30.08%


COSI Levy - 69% precincts reporting

- FOR 40268 50.70%

- AGAINST 39154 49.30%


Election results for Ohio statewide races:

Attorney General - Precincts Reporting: 84.45%
Dann, Marc Democratic 1,639,917 51.72%
Montgomery, Betty Republican 1,530,921 48.28%

posted by jr at 01:20 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Democrat challenger Webb has proclaimed himself the winner in the Virginia Senate race:

Precincts Reporting: 2430 of 2443 (99.47%)

J H Webb Jr Democratic 1,152,600 49.43%
G F Allen Republican 1,151,076 49.36%

posted by jr at 01:44 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Democrat challenger McCaskill has been declared the winner in Missouri. If you count Virginia, that would be five new Senate seats for the Democrats. That only leaves Montana, which looks like another close race. The Democrat challenger had maintained an 8 to 10 point lead in early returns, but it's getting close.

Montana Senate - 61% of precincts reporting

Tester Dem 51%
Burns Rep* 47%

posted by jr at 01:56 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Keep updating, jr. I'm hanging in until 3 or so to see what happens in Montana.

If the Dems win Montana, DO THEY WIN THE SENATE, BARRING RECOUNTS, ETC. IN VA. AND/OR MISSOURI???

posted by McCaskey at 02:11 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Yes.

Democrat gains thus far:

Ohio
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
Virginia
Missouri

Tester (D) maintains a 4 point lead in Montana with 65% of the precincts reporting. The counts are slow in Montana. One county there is having to count by hand due to some kind of malfunction.

Latest Virginia numbers:

Precincts Reporting: 2434 of 2443 (99.63%)

J H Webb Jr Democratic 1,167,053 49.56%
G F Allen Republican 1,159,238 49.23%

Webb as a lead of nearly 8000 votes.


The Lucas County BOE must have called it a night, since it's been over an hour since they updated their file. The COSI levy will probably need a recount. McNamara probably has the council seat locked up.

posted by jr at 02:22 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I don't have cable or satellite TV, so I don't know what's reported on the tube. I'm getting info from the web and the radio. The problem with generic counts on the web is not knowing what areas of the state have not been counted in the totals yet.

In Missouri, the incumbent Republican led most of the night, but St. Louis was left to be reported, and major urban centers usually go for the Democrat.

posted by jr at 02:28 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Unbelievable.

Where the hell is everyone? Someone else has to be out there in cyberspace...AC, pink slip, junta, etc.? The Dems might take the frigging SENATE and they're what...passed out drunk? Asleep? Ya gotta enjoy the moment, even if its the middle of the night...

posted by McCaskey at 02:34 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



CNN website has 71% of precincts in....Tester 50-47....
posted by McCaskey at 02:38 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



74% precincts in....50-48 Tester.
posted by McCaskey at 02:47 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



The Montana count will drag on for a while yet.

"The MSU students were still in line and they won't release numbers until they voted. At 8Pm they thought the line would be 2 hours long, but then updated to 4 hours."

Montana is two hours behind us, right? That means MSU students got done voting between Midnight and 2:00 a.m. our time???

Then there was this back and forth:

1. "[N]ow that we've won in VA and MO, we were wondering when you would finish counting your ballots so that we can officially say that we have taken the Senate?"

2. "they say not till 6am for the large county still out"

1. "The decision for the final determining seat for control of the second house of Congress is waiting for the counting of ballot in which county?"

2. "Gallatin County. They where still voting until at least 10 because of unheard of turn out. In Missoula for example they had 125% turnout over last election."

Those comments were from about 30 minutes ago.

Latest counts for Montana Senate with 73% of precincts reporting:

Tester Dem 50%
Burns Rep* 48%

I wonder about absentee ballot counting in Virginia and Montana.

posted by jr at 02:47 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



OK, I'm hanging in until at least 3:30, sicko political addict that I am.
posted by McCaskey at 02:53 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Webb declared victory in Va. but Allen did not concede, correct?
posted by McCaskey at 02:54 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Correct. Only Webb has given Webb the victory.
posted by jr at 02:59 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Only Webb has given Webb the victory.

Well, it worked for Bush in 2000...

posted by McCaskey at 03:02 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



CNN has Webb ahead in Va. by roughly 7500 votes with 99% of precincts in...
posted by McCaskey at 03:04 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



As of 3:00 a.m., 97.17% of the vote has been counted here in Lucas County. A total of 118,653 votes have been cast for Governor, but only 75,134 votes have been cast for State Board of Education. That drop off means that 43,519 people who voted in Lucas County did not vote in the State School Board election.
posted by RolandHansen at 03:09 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Hey, Roland, welcome aboard.
posted by McCaskey at 03:10 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Been here all night lurking in the darkness. lol
BTW, the portion of the Lucas County vote cast for the State School Board candidate who was endorsed by the Lucas County Democratic Party is at 33.49%. That number does not bode well for the the local Democratic Party in that specific race when one considers the strong voter turnout, along with the large number of Democratic Party voters who also received the sample ballot with the endorsed candidate's name on it.
None-the-less, it has been pretty much a Democratic Party sweep.

posted by RolandHansen at 03:21 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Well, that's it for me. No matter what happens with the Senate, it's been a great night.

jr, super job again with the updates. TT was fun tonight.

Nighty-night....

posted by McCaskey at 03:26 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Sleep tight. Don't let the bedbugs bite.
Oh, now that it appears that Ben Konop has been elected County Commissioner, what is the effective date of the decrease in my real estate taxes that he said he was going to give us all?
With that, I think I'll try to go get some zzzs myself.
Nite all. hmm, that sounds like a good name for a cough medicine.

posted by RolandHansen at 03:34 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Wow I am way late on commenting (worked the polls all day in Sylvania).

My wife voted about 8 a.m. (I have not yet). We live in Sylvania. She said lines were long for Twp. residents and very short for City. She also said several people openly complaining about touch screens and poll workers not offering help (perhaps they're not allowed to beyond handing out instructions). She had picture ID ready to show; poll workers barely gave it a glance.


Lines sucked for us (Advent Lutheran Church) from 6:30 -7:30 then it ran steady till about 11-12. Then back at 5 - 7 it sucked again with the people waiting outside. At our polling location, the way I had it set up for the primary and this election was to have the people encoding the cards to give a quick rundown of how to operate the machine before they go on their own. If they had used them before, we just told them they can hit us up when they need it. If they are in the middle of voting and they ask for a worker to look at their screen for help, it needs to be both a Democrat and Republican judge (normally the Presiding judges) for bi-partisanship and they have to be careful how they word so it's not interpreting issues or anything.

I had a lady today ask me to explain to her the different issues. The most I could do was read the bullet points to her on the screen -- otherwise it's interpretation.

As far as the ID, the only thing the ID is for is to check the current address (most people thought it was for photo identification). If they had an old address in the signature book with no ID or bank statement, etc. with the current address then the voter had to vote provisionally (had a few people pissed off about that but oh well).

All in all, we had maybe 5-6 people get overly bitchy out of the 800 people that came to our polling location.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 03:38 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



OOPS. NEWS FLASH on that State School Board Race!
The Lucas County Board of Elections just put up the 100% vote --- and it's about time.
There were 139,472 votes cast for Governor in Lucas County with 66.55% to the endorsed Democrat, but only 87,770 votes in Lucas County were cast for the State School Board with 33.29% to the endorsed Democrat. None-the-less, it appears that the endorsed Democrat will win election to the District 2 seat which encompasses all of 5 counties plus parts of two other counties. The Secretary of State website has not been updated in several hours, but my best guess-timate is that this seat will be won by that endorsed Democrat by a plurality vote of approximately 38%. That's far less than a majority, let alone a clear mandate.

posted by RolandHansen at 03:48 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Montana's latest numbers: 81% of precincts reporting

Tester ...... Dem ...... 144544 ...... 49%
Burns ...... Rep* ...... 140547 ...... 48%
Jones ...... Lib ...... 7532 ...... 3%

Apparently, some Montana counties won't finish tallying votes until after 10:00 a.m. our time when the workers go back to work to finish the job.

posted by jr at 03:57 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



The Tester campaign had planned to declare victory earlier, but due to slow returns and maybe the fact that the race is close, the Tester camp decided to delay a victory speech.

And now a Montanta county is planning a recount.

"They've called a recount in Yellowstone Co. (Billings and environs). It's not clear what caused the recount--a local race, or this one, or what. They're not doing the recount until tomorrow morning."

"[T]here were about 35,956 votes in Yellowstone Co, and Tester was leading by about 1,273 when [they] pulled the votes for the recount."

posted by jr at 04:11 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



An unofficial analysis of votes left to count in Montana:

"Bottom line Burns is down 3,997 and could pick up a maximum of about 1000. Its a win for Tester."


Another claims:

"After crunching the numbers and extrapolating from each precinct, it looks like it will be Tester by 451 votes before Yellowstone. So it all comes down to Yellowstone."

posted by jr at 04:27 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Good morning all. I went to bed about 1130 last night and believe you me I was tired after all the crap I had to do yesterday. And I wake up to find that the election is still up in the air.

(joke) Maybe we should learn from the Iraqi electorate. There's wasn't as near as a nail biter. Plus they got those cool purple thumbs.

posted by MikeyA at 06:21 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



So, Dem control of the House is a lock and Dem control of the Senate is very, very possible.

Finalize the damn results already so I know if I can post the "Countdown to Chimpeachment" or not.

Good thing I froze the bottle of champagne in a solid block of ice....

posted by anonymouscoward at 06:43 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



(joke) Maybe we should learn from the Iraqi electorate. There's wasn't as near as a nail biter. Plus they got those cool purple thumbs.

Auditable paper ballots, everyone gets to vote, no registration and all the related hassles of where to vote/not being on the voter rolls, and voter intimidation tactics being roadside bombs, snipers, and so on, rather than harassing robocalls and illegal misleading flyers from the GOP? BRING IT ON!!!

posted by anonymouscoward at 06:52 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Oh oh oh oh oh, how I am dying to hear the next State of the Union address, particularly the bit where the Sergeant-at-Arms of the House of Representatives enters the chamber and yells, "MADAME SPEAKER, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES!"



posted by anonymouscoward at 07:38 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



What the heck happened? Did Karl Rove's check to Diebold bounce?
posted by holland at 07:43 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I now have more complete information on the results of the District 2 State Board of Education election.
My projection earlier about the winner was close. I had said my best guess-timate is that this seat will be won by that endorsed Democrat by a plurality vote of approximately 38%. That's far less than a majority, let alone a clear mandate.
It now appears that the endorsed Democrat won in the seven-county region with 37.34% of the total vote according to the Secretary of State figures I just looked at.
Remember that Lucas County is by far the most populous county in that district and that the name of the individual endorsed by the Lucas County Democratic Party was listed on the Democratic Party sample ballot.
With that being fact, it causes one to wonder about another fact: The Democratic Party endorsed candidate failed to carry Lucas County where the Republican candidate who came in first in the field of four candidates received 4,476 more votes than the standard-bearer for the Democratic Party.

posted by RolandHansen at 08:02 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I would like to congratulate all the Democrats on their hardfought victory. They've been trying for this since 1994. But as the Republicans found out in the 90's and as the old adage says "Becareful what you wish for. You may get it."

I think AC has shown us some of that as well. Finalize the damn results already so I know if I can post the "Countdown to Chimpeachment" or not. the Dems would be within their rights drawing articles of impeachment if they so choose. But there's three things I'd caution against.

1) if everyone votes through the party line then there isn't enough votes to remove the president from office.

2) this tactic backfired on the Republicans in 1998. It was viewed as a purely partisian tactic.

3) they may find a censure is a better way to go as it could get many Republicans to jump the party line giving the Pres a clear mandate and also it has less of a chance of being partisian.

posted by MikeyA at 08:07 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #




posted by anonymouscoward at 08:08 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #




posted by anonymouscoward at 08:22 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I think AC has shown us some of that as well. Finalize the damn results already so I know if I can post the "Countdown to Chimpeachment" or not. the Dems would be within their rights drawing articles of impeachment if they so choose. But there's three things I'd caution against.

Don't count on that happening. The Dems know they can't go on a witchhunt, and they're out to prove conservatives and the media wrong about the rhetoric directed toward them.

If Pelosi does what she says she will, then it will be a really smart move on the Dems part. Push the agenda early and show they'll get something done in Congress, and it'll give them more credibility for the Presidential election. Among these are raising the minimum wage at the Federal level, healthcare, and the Bush plan for Immigration may be an easier push through a Democratic Congress.

Don't count on an impeachment. If they did, we can count on the demise of the Democratic party.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 08:26 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Isn't it rather interesting that the Lucas County Democratic Party appointees and endorsed candidates to both the district seat and the at-large seat of Toledo City Council formerly held by Bob McCloskey were not able to retain those seats with both being won by Democrats who had not received the endorsement of the Lucas County Democratic Party?
Food for thought.

posted by RolandHansen at 08:32 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



It's not ToledoTalk, It's FARK.com!
posted by thenick at 08:41 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Anonymouscoward

How can I get these two pictures on my computer so that I can e-mail them to my brothers and sister? They would get a big kick out of them?

posted by purnhrt at 08:43 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Don't count on an impeachment.

After all, it's not like Chimpy and Darth Cheney can't be prosecuted for war crimes AFTER they're out of office. Hell, maybe they'll make the mistake of taking a trip overseas to a government that has the balls to arrest them and will, knowing that public sentiment is against them.

Course, now that the Dems will have subpoena power, at least in the House, there *will* be actual, real investigations into Cheney's energy task force, Plamegate, the "intelligence" leading up to the Iraq debacle, Foleygate, Abramoff... all it takes is enough smoking gun documents to come out in enough scandals to sink Chimpy's approval rating to Nixonian levels (26%). That's about the key point at which impeachment will seem widely acceptable and Chimpy will seriously have to start thinking about resigning... I mean, who'd want to beat Nixon's record?

posted by anonymouscoward at 08:43 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



How can I get these two pictures on my computer so that I can e-mail them to my brothers and sister?

Put your monitor face down on your scanner, then save the scanned image as a JPEG.

posted by thenick at 08:47 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



It's not ToledoTalk, It's FARK.com!

This thread is useless without pics... someone needs to post some boobies.

posted by anonymouscoward at 08:48 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



This thread is useless without pics... someone needs to post some boobies.

Here you go:


posted by thenick at 08:50 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



How can I get these two pictures on my computer so that I can e-mail them to my brothers and sister?

Right click the picture and hit "save picture as".

posted by tm at 09:13 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



In Virginia:

Precincts Reporting: 2438 of 2443 (99.80%)

J H Webb Jr Democratic 1,169,356 49.54%
G F Allen Republican 1,162,497 49.25%


Montana:

99% of precincts reporting

Tester Dem 194914 49%
Burns Rep* 193179 48%
Jones Lib 10166 3%

With Tester leading by ~1700, I don't think an automatic recount gets triggered in Montana.

posted by jr at 09:20 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #





oh please oh please oh please

posted by anonymouscoward at 09:23 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



As for the smoking ban issues, I'm confident that the businesses and their customers will adjust.

I suddenly got a mental picture of Jimavolt coming unglued and beating the absolute tar out of Junta with a length of tow chain, all the while screaming "Here's your f***ing adjustment!"

I enjoyed a brief night at The Distillery. The company was excellent and there was no shortage of beer or food. I paid my tab with a C-note and got $101.75 back. At this rate, I could actually afford to eat out three or four nights a week!

My polling station is the King of Glory church building on Brint Road. My Diebold machine didn't work well; selecting large print produced a 'blue screen of death' mode. I was able to switch back to the normal font and complete my ballot. Mine wasn't the only machine to develop a little electronic indigestion. While I was standing in line, I saw the station officials go over and straighten another machine out. This happened twice more while I was there.

I went to vote at 5:15 PM, and waited in line about 30 minutes. The staff did an excellent job, and I thanked them for their service on the way out.

posted by madjack at 09:43 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I had a nice night last night - good food, good beer and good company! We need to do more fun things like that.

The Distillery has loads of tv's and later there was a singer with a guitar playing cover tunes. He was pretty good.

I couldn't read the returns too well, should have brought my other glasses - but it seemed pretty plain by the time we left which way the tide was turning.

posted by katie82640 at 09:50 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



My Diebold machine didn't work well; selecting large print produced a 'blue screen of death' mode.

AHAHAHAHHAHAHHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH

I would have paid good money for pics/video of this. So would about half of the Internet and 80+% of computer professionals.

This is exactly why I DO NOT LIKE those machines. And who knows what was corrupted in the memory when it messed up?

posted by anonymouscoward at 09:54 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Stop being a smartass, thenick.

Purnhrt, right click the image and click "Copy image". Paste it in a MS Word document, save it, then send it to your bro & sis. That is a simpler and quicker way.

posted by MrsPhoenix at 09:59 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



October 6, 2006 Washington Post story about the Democrats' plan for their first 100 hours in office:

"House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi is thinking 100 hours, time enough, she says, to begin to "drain the swamp" after more than a decade of Republican rule. As in the first 100 hours the House meets after Democrats _ in her fondest wish _ win control in the Nov. 7 midterm elections and Pelosi takes the gavel as the first Madam Speaker in history."

* Day One: Put new rules in place to "break the link between lobbyists and legislation."

* Day Two: Enact all the recommendations made by the commission that investigated the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

* Raise the minimum wage to $7.25 an hour, maybe in one step.

* Cut the interest rate on student loans in half.

* Allow the government to negotiate directly with the pharmaceutical companies for lower drug prices for Medicare patients.

* Broaden the types of stem cell research allowed with federal funds.

"All the days after that: "Pay as you go," meaning no increasing the deficit, whether the issue is middle class tax relief, health care or some other priority."

"To do that, she said, Bush-era tax cuts would have to be rolled back for those above "a certain level." She mentioned annual incomes of $250,000 or $300,000 a year and higher, and said tax rates for those individuals might revert to those of the Clinton era."

posted by jr at 10:00 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Paste it in a MS Word document

*CRINGE* *GRIND TEETH*
NO NO NO NO NO

Right-click and Save As, and send THOSE as an attachment. Pasting to MS Word is BAD BAD BAD.

...thanks, MrsPhoenix, I think you caused me some muscular and dental damage here...

posted by anonymouscoward at 10:07 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



AC, please school me as to WHY "Pasting to MS Word is BAD BAD BAD."

And by the way, I think you are incorrect :)

posted by MrsPhoenix at 10:10 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Ah, what a great start to the day....seeing Dems still leading in Va. and Montana...
posted by McCaskey at 10:11 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



So, AC.

You still gonna demand recounts because of those crappy Diebold machines, or is it now that your horses have won and appear to be winning that they're acceptable?

I mean, listening to you in this thread, sounded like you were suggesting that there was massive voter fraud on the part of the Republicans. Is that now a non issue?

posted by WhiteAfricanAmerican at 10:13 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



* Day One: Put new rules in place to "break the link between lobbyists and legislation."

Bush vetoes/signing-statements this.

* Day Two: Enact all the recommendations made by the commission that investigated the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

Bush signing-statements this.

* Raise the minimum wage to $7.25 an hour, maybe in one step.

Bush, at the behest of Corporate America, vetoes this.

* Cut the interest rate on student loans in half.

Bush, at the behest of the banking/finance sector of Corporate America, vetoes this.

* Allow the government to negotiate directly with the pharmaceutical companies for lower drug prices for Medicare patients.

The drug companies laugh and jack up prices citing "research and development costs" and so on. Face it, the government can't negotiate a good price on anything.

* Broaden the types of stem cell research allowed with federal funds.

Bush attacks with his +25 Veto Stamp of Doom!

posted by anonymouscoward at 10:15 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



selecting large print produced a 'blue screen of death' mode.

That wasn't a blue screen of death. Since the text was large, it obviously increased the ballot size and the ballots span over more pages. From the instructions page, if you hit next, then hit next again you would have gone to the first ballot (which was for Governor).

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 10:23 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



AC, please tell me how you think the Diebold machines are junk. Have you ever used on behind the scenes, setting them up, and knowing what actually gets tallied? Most people think the the votes are tallied by paper, and that when a paper jam occurs the vote won't count. FALSE - the vote is first counted by the memory card. And if you knew half of the security measures in place to know when the fraud has taken place, you would have a little more comfort in the system.

There are so many seal numbers and locks and numbers we have to write down before and after the election. Not to mention, the 'hacked' diebold machines that have been in the news requires these seals to break and the locks picked. I'd first know that it was broken into because the seal says VOID all over it, and the seal number is recorded in my clerk's book. And the fact that that people are constantly watching the machines, whether it be voters in line or the people encoding the cards. I think I could catch a person sitting on the side of a machine trying to lock pick the lock and tearing off seals.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 10:30 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



And in case the memory card fails, thats what the paper trail is for. And the recording of these seal numbers and setup and shutdown of the system has to be done with both a Republican and a Democrat judge, making it bi-partisan.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 10:32 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



So, ToledoPlusPlus, what's your background on computer security? All the seals and locks won't help you if you can't trust the actual COMPUTER CODE on the machine. Do you have the actual, line-by-line source code that goes into the machines, and the actual line-by-line source code of any compilers that compile the source code into machine language?

I thought not.

And when do the seals and locks go on the machines?

Paper ballots can't come from the factory with hidden back doors pre-installed.

You some kind of highly-placed elections official who has the gonads to step the public through every last step of what happens with these machines, from the time they're put away after the election through the time they're put away after the next election?

posted by anonymouscoward at 10:42 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Ac, you didn't answer my question?

Either the voter fraud issues are valid across the board or they aren't.

Are you intending to raise hell like your fellow dems threatened before the elctions, or does that only apply when elections are won by people and/or parties you don't like?

posted by WhiteAfricanAmerican at 11:02 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



*IF* the paper trail is accurate, and assuming it is, *IF* it's hand-counted and used for the certified count, then more power to D------ for letting people poke at a screen to fill in their votes instead of marking a bubble or X or whatever on a sheet of paper.

Seals will only tell you about physical tampering.

http://news.com.com/Windows+virus+worms+onto+some+Apple+iPods/2100-7349_3-6126804.html
Some iPods shipped with a virus on them.
http://www.digitaltechlife.com/2005/09/02/some-creative-mp3-players-have-virus/
Creative MP3 players too.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/11/30/dreamcast_game_spreads_virus/
Sega Dreamcast game ships with virus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_CD_copy_protection_scandal
Sony CDs install a rootkit when played in a computer

D------ TSX machines run Windows CE. You know, a stripped-down version of that same operating system well-known for being easily infected with adware, spyware, backdoors, and for having many many security holes.

Please oh please say something about how Windows is the most secure thing since Fort Knox and how you've never had one single virus or bit of spyware and have never even heard of these things called "service packs" that Microsoft releases. I need a laugh.

posted by anonymouscoward at 11:11 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Ac, you didn't answer my question?

Your question? What are you doing with two logins? Awwwwwww.

posted by anonymouscoward at 11:12 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Oh sorry, didn't see it above. Too busy answering ToledoPlusPlus.
posted by anonymouscoward at 11:16 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



AC, yes I do have a background in computer security. THATS MY JOB. I do a bit of computer programming, networking, and my biggest hobby and job focus is on computer security.

Your right, I don't have the line by line source code. The source code has been viewed by Universities and I'll bet they have been viewed by election boards. No one has suggested the source code skews votes. People ARE suggesting that other people will slide in a memory card that will input a virus to manipulate a vote.

If you want a complete run down of what happens from Monday night to Tuesday night I'll be glad to describe it step by step. I can also tell you the number of security steps in place to ensure a fraudless vote. However, security is a DETERRENT not an END-ALL BE-ALL. There's huge security holes in everything, there is no way to secure anything. I'm glad they ask to provide identification of address. Ever wonder how vulnerable your absentee ballots are? Don't try and lecture me on security.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:21 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



And the only way to input anything into the machine is by the memory card, atleast, until people decide to transmit viruses through some biometric/human touch.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:23 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



*learn* not decide....my mind is tired.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:23 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I decided to pass up the great opportunity of $15/hr

I know of a great opportunity for you at $20/hr. You can be the test pilot for a brand new aircraft design which bears a startling resemblance to a cement mixer and will be launched from the High Level bridge with the test pilot chained to the steering wheel.

WhiteAfricanAmerican: Don’t be dense. AC has no intention of answering you, because the answer is as obvious as it is embarrassing. If AC’s favorite wins the race, the tamper-proof Diebold machines have clearly worked flawlessly and there is some ray of hope for the poor, disenfranchised citizens of the US. Naturally it will follow that if, by some electronic chicanery, the wrong candidate wins, the levy fails or the proposed ban on freedom fall short of becoming law, then the whole thing is a plot by the GOP to take away AC’s lunch money and bloody the silly nit’s pug. Again.

posted by madjack at 11:31 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



So, AC.

You still gonna demand recounts because of those crappy Diebold machines, or is it now that your horses have won and appear to be winning that they're acceptable?

I mean, listening to you in this thread, sounded like you were suggesting that there was massive voter fraud on the part of the Republicans. Is that now a non issue?


I passed up the opportunity to go work setting up D------ machines in a dozen counties for good money because there's no way in Hell I trust them to count anything accurately, nor would I want to be around them at all lest someone claim I hacked them.

My county counts on fill-in-the-oval optical scan ballots by ES&S, which this year were fed into a scanner right at the precinct. Of course I have no idea what goes on inside the scanner, but if I feel sufficiently prickly, I could damn well make noise about a recount. What's Lucas County's recount process? Count from the memory cards and see if they match?

This time the D------ machines had a paper trail, so there's less hanky-panky that could go on.

I think I made it plain that the only count I'd really truly trust is a hand count of paper ballots for the certified results. I don't care who made the machines or what race it is, it's the only way to be sure and the only way to check that the machines aren't meddling with the election.

Do you agree with me that the certified totals should be done by hand count, or do you support election fraud done by machine, WAA?

posted by anonymouscoward at 11:32 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



My deductive reasoning :-)

First of all for a machine to be hacked via a code change - you'd have to have access to the source prior to the machine being installed onsite. It doesn't have a wireless card or a modem for communication insite. (So that would be a Diebold employee or third party provider since the machines aren't accessible remotely)

Secondly - if the code was compromised PRIOR to being setup onsite, the machines wouldn't successfully selftest. (They are conducting minimal performance tests - one would hope)

I do believe there was a significant problem in 2004 with the Diebold system - and that repairs were made (quietly). The repercussions from those shortcomings were never satisfactorily answered, at least to my knowledge.

I think if someone wanted to really effectively hack this system - they'd do better to address the card system and the way the data is stored there or the program that tallies the remote totals - that's where the count comes from.

Diebold claims publicly that the machines are ISO 9000 complaint. Here is a report that outlines the concerns pretty clearly... Specifically addresses the Maryland issue in '04. RABA Technology prepared this document following the '04 election with reference to the Maryland situation. They gave preferential referencing to the Hopkins and SAIC studies.

Lots of interesting questions surrounding this issue.

posted by katie82640 at 11:34 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



oops ONSITE,,,it can't communicate from the site :-)
posted by katie82640 at 11:35 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



"This is exactly why I DO NOT LIKE those machines. And who knows what was corrupted in the memory when it messed up?"

AFAIK, anonymouscoward is in the mainstream of network security/computer security professionals when he makes the above statement, along with his other comments regarding these machines.

BTW, AC, was that your post on /. a few weeks back? Your post was high on the list. Congrats! anonymouscoward is famous in the community of computer professionals - well, at least the one that I know about.

The above has nothing to do with politics or any other political issue. It's just the way it is.

posted by paulhem at 11:36 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Stop being a smartass, thenick.

NEVER!

Purnhrt, right click the image and click "Copy image". Paste it in a MS Word document, save it, then send it to your bro & sis. That is a simpler and quicker way.

Seriously? That's simpler and quicker? Is your real name Rube Goldberg? That almost makes my monitor + scanner solution seem plausable.

I agree with AC, pasting a picture into Word to send it is so stupid it's painful. What's the point of pasting an image into Word then sending the document as an attachment, when you can save the picture and just send it as an attachment. Sending Word files can spread macro virii and if Purnhrt doesn't know how to save a jpg, she probably doesn't have her antivirus software up to date.

posted by thenick at 11:37 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



The lock to the memory card is always on. But there are sticker seals and other types of seals when we first arive Monday for setup. We record the machine number and the seal numbers before we take these off to physically setup the machine. We physically set up the machine and place a test memory card in to run what's called a *zero report* to make sure the system counts the test candidates at 0 votes. The four judges for each precinct then signs at the bottom and it gets rolled up into a sealed canister where eventually voter's paper trails go. That sealed canister is also recorded in the Monday night log. We take out the test memory card, lock up the door, and seal it again and record the memory card door seal in the log.

We come in Tuesday morning and verify the seals match. We then take off only the memory card door seal (not the canister seal, these never come off). We then record machine number, actual voter's memory card number, memory card door seal number, ballot count (listed at the bottom of the Diebold screen), the Total count for the machine (this may start at 500 or so, because these machines are reused. It is the total number of votes for that machine in the elections it was used). This is done bi-partisan. We do the same after the polls are closed (recording and verifying the numbers match etc.). To close the polls for tallying, you need a supervisor card that the polling location's Presiding judges will have. You put that in and type in a pin number. This gives you the option to End Voting, and proceeds to ask you to print a long report. We print two long reports (one that goes in the sealed canister, and another in the Presiding Judge's 'Green Bag' (which then gets sealed and recorded).

The sealed canister's go in the Presiding Judge's 'Green Bag'(sealed) as well, while the memory card goes into a special 'Red Bag'(sealed and recorded). The two Presiding Judge's then take everything to a substation or directly to the Board of Elections. The machines also get sealed up AGAIN, and now placed in a wooden box with wheels that is also locked up and left overnight until the Board of Elections pick them up.

There is probably even more detailed things we do that I may have not mentioned, so if questioned I'll answer, but that's a quick overview of the Monday night and Tuesday operations.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:38 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



The source code has been viewed by Universities and I'll bet they have been viewed by election boards

NO IT HAS NOT. D------ REFUSES TO DISCLOSE THEIR SOURCE CODE.

The only reviews that have been DONE were done on LEAKED CODE!

Show me some proof where D------ has allowed any independent expert, board of elections, or university to fully and publically audit the entire source code of what goes on their machines.

And the only way to input anything into the machine is by the memory card, atleast, until people decide to transmit viruses through some biometric/human touch.

So you can't actually vote by touching the screen? That's not input? Hahaha, I thought so!

posted by anonymouscoward at 11:41 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I lied, the obvious other input is the voter access card. However, I've yet to learn of anyone being able to manipulate data with a voter access card.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:42 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



AC, I did say that input is through the touch BUT THERE IS NO WAY TO TRANSMIT A FUCKING VIRUS THROUGH YOUR FINGER. Until you can prove THAT, I'll have confidence in the machines.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:43 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



BTW, AC, was that your post on /. a few weeks back? Your post was high on the list. Congrats! anonymouscoward is famous in the community of computer professionals - well, at least the one that I know about.

You're not serious, are you?

posted by thenick at 11:44 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



T++ I don't think anybody is thinking that poll workers would have been or for that matter really could have been involved in any security issues. IMO if something was compromised it had to have happened in the process before the interaction at the poll or after with the data transmission.

I'll refer to AC and the other programmers because I'm a system integrator not a programmer - I am responsible for vulnerable places in the process and user interaction risk. But I doubt that access to any code or data storage devices could have happened at the polling site.

And it couldn't have happened in the multiple places that it is alleged to have occurred in '04 - not in the same way at each place. Too big of a coincidence. I deal with data and access security at work. My job is to figure out where in the process things can or did go wrong and then find a programmer to tell me if in fact that is what happened.

posted by katie82640 at 11:45 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Oh, and AC, what is your background in computer security if you don't mind me asking?
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:46 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Could a voter surreptitiously tape a magnet to a machine and destroy the programming? I have had the programming wiped out on two cash registers because employees slapped vendor product advertising magnets on them. All sales data for the day and part of the programming was lost.
posted by holland at 11:46 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



We physically set up the machine and place a test memory card in to run what's called a *zero report* to make sure the system counts the test candidates at 0 votes.

Yeah, I saw that in the D------ hack test video. The hacked memory card reads zero, however at the end, it prints out 7 YES 1 NO instead of 2 YES 6 NO. Where do these memory cards come from and how are they sealed? Anyone have unsupervised access to them?

We take out the test memory card, lock up the door, and seal it again and record the memory card door seal in the log.

Nice, you lock and seal up the door, but what do you do with the memory card? Got any seals or serial numbers on them? Can I just volunteer to be a poll worker and palm some pre-hacked cards into the machines while nobody's looking? Do you guys actually do a criminal background check on poll workers?

posted by anonymouscoward at 11:48 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



purnhrt - you can right click on a picture and save it to your pc. Or if you use Outlook you can paste it into the body of an email and send it. It's easier, quicker and the person you are sending it to you is responsible for the form of delivery. So if they can't view it in the body of an email - they will see it attached.

There is a good point raised above - do you have virus protection and do you update it regularly? If not - there are a few good ones out there - email me and I'll send you a couple of links.

posted by katie82640 at 11:51 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



katie, there may very well be possibilities with security issues outside of the polling place. But I don't buy conspiracy theories very well. It's ok to be skeptical, but it's another thing to accuse.

And like I said, give me one thing you think is secure and I'll find a way to break into it. SECURITY IS A DETTERENT. Do you think the locks on your house keep you safe? Locks on the car keep the car from being stolen?

Hand ballots, what if they get lost? What if they are miscounted? Your going to find holes in everything. Nothing is completely secure.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 11:54 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



AC, I did say that input is through the touch BUT THERE IS NO WAY TO TRANSMIT A FUCKING VIRUS THROUGH YOUR FINGER. Until you can prove THAT, I'll have confidence in the machines.

That's an input method, and hey, don't tell me it's impossible to screw up an input routine... all it takes is "punching the wrong buttons"... for all that either you or I know, the thing can crash if you punch three candidates and the back button simultaneously, because the programmer assumed that this would never happen when s/he wrote the code.

However, I've yet to learn of anyone being able to manipulate data with a voter access card.

That'd be hilarious. Mr. Vote Hacker comes in with a special voter access card which feeds in bogus data, smashes the stack because the machine is expecting properly formatted data of a certain length from an official D------ card, and overwrites a key routine with one of his/her own devising.

Tell me it's impossible. Just because you haven't heard of it being done doesn't mean it's impossible. Too bad D------ won't ever make their systems available for such fun testing.

posted by anonymouscoward at 12:01 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Yup - we've had that conversation before T++. And I agree with you wholeheartedly. I just got done with a project where another company had suggested wireless for a bank branch communication project. It's unbelievable how naive some people are :-) Or maybe trusting.

But as soon as you figure out a security measure and deploy it - those who are intent on figuring a route around that solution. Many times they do. Almost without exception from the inside.

I don't think there was a conspiracy in '04. If I did - I might believe it was a coordinated effort by poll workers.

I think there were significant challenges for the electronic machine project and the Diebold product, in particular. My professional opinion? I think they got greedy - brought the product to market too soon in order to get online for the November election date rather than facing another two year minimum wait to start realizing an ROI on their development costs.

I think alot of the hardware/component issues have indeed been resolved. I think this is the worst kept secret with the fewest legal ramifications that I can think of. But a conspiracy to throw the '04 election? No. I don't think it could possibly have been.

posted by katie82640 at 12:02 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



The hacked memory card reads zero, however at the end, it prints out 7 YES 1 NO instead of 2 YES 6 NO.

Yes, that's with having complete control of the machine and not in a polling environment. These tests are like taking the damn machine home and having unfettered access to them. Try pulling that shit at a polling location.

Where do these memory cards come from and how are they sealed? Anyone have unsupervised access to them?

The memory cards come directly from the Board of Elections. They are given to the 'Red Bag Judge' when they pick up their supplies the Saturday before election. In theory, yes you put in your own memory card. However, the memory card has a serial number that we record and it has to match the acceptable serial numbers given from the Board of Elections. These also contain bar codes on them. So yes, theoretically they do have unsupervised access to them but I believe they give the responsibility of 'Red Bag Judge' to those most credible to deter any possiblilities of manipulation. I'm young but have done this several times and have never been 'Red Bag Judge'. However, my counterpart in the election was new this time and she was a married 40-something year old with kids in Maumee school district.

No background checks. That would also be the same for someone hand counting ballots or a poll worker giving an invalid paper ballot to a voter. I've NEVER stated this system is completely secure, but IMO it's just as secure as hand ballots.

And do recognize that these are still new. Remember computer's back in the late 80's and early to mid-90's? All I had to do was go the 'Run' command and type in an IP address of a computer with file and print sharing and I had complete access to their computer on Windows OS. Windows is way more secure than it was (still has holes), but it has come a long way. Give the system time to advance and make progress.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:06 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Hand ballots, what if they get lost? What if they are miscounted?

I think it's called ballot box stuffing. The election process is not perfect, and that isn't likely to change anytime soon. With regard to the Diebold voting machines, a conspiracy to steal a local election is extremely unlikely. For one thing, the money isn't there.

posted by madjack at 12:07 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



The liberals view of the U.S. after the 2004 election.



I wonder if the depressed liberals from two years ago who moved to the U.S of Canada will come back to Jesusland?


In a column titled Let pendulum now swing to the 'radical center', Blade columnist Marilou Johanek said after the 2004 presidential election:

"It is the mourning after the long night. Half the country is pleased as punch. Half the country wants to punch a hole in the nearest wall. Emotions are raw. Political rage simmers. Rabid partisans who made it real personal and real ugly are either gloating or popping Prozac. I am sick at heart over the results."

My Dr. Phil advice two years ago for Marilou was: "Remember, your Democrats control Toledo, Lucas County, and the 9th District. Relax. Chill-out. It will be okay. Promise."

See, I was right. And now Marilou's dangling pendulum has swung the other way.

And locally, Democrats have strengthened their stranglehold on the The People's Republic of Toledo County.

posted by jr at 12:09 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



In theory, yes you put in your own memory card.

Here I meant to say, "In theory, yes you can replace an access card with your own". But it still has to match up and still has to be recognized by the machine. This isn't as easy as sticking something in and all is lost.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:09 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Tester's lead has increased. It's still reported as 99% of precincts reporting.

Montana Senate

Tester Dem 198032 49%
Burns Rep* 194904 48%

posted by jr at 12:12 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #




Hand ballots, what if they get lost? What if they are miscounted? Your going to find holes in everything. Nothing is completely secure.


Yeah, exactly. But electronic vote tabulation is filled with opportunities for meddling with the election in totally undetectable ways, or at least in ways which have lots and lots and lots of "plausible deniability" so as to allow the real crooks the ability to get off. "it was a bug/freak accident/mistake/someone who didn't follow procedures"

posted by anonymouscoward at 12:13 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Tell me it's impossible. Just because you haven't heard of it being done doesn't mean it's impossible. Too bad D------ won't ever make their systems available for such fun testing.

I've NEVER said it was impossible. It is, but I look at the possibility of fraud on the scale of Ocean's 11 & 12. Well-planned and coordinated with a lot of money. This isn't simple shit that a joe schmoe or teenage kid is going to pull.

And yes, just because I haven't heard of it being done doesn't mean it's impossible. That is called a 0-day attack. I DO think the source code should be open on a SUPER LIMITED SCALE to just a few highly experts as Microsoft is doing with Vista. The more a system is scrutinized the more secure the system becomes.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:14 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



And Tester claims victory.

"The final numbers in Butte had Tester's margin increase by 700 votes, increasing his statewide lead more than 3,000 votes. Meagher County has yet to report, but it is expected less than 900 votes will come from that precinct."

posted by jr at 12:15 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I just got done with a project where another company had suggested wireless for a bank branch communication project.

*whine whine whimper cry*

Mind naming the bank so I know not to do business with them or their customers?

posted by anonymouscoward at 12:19 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



The more a system is scrutinized the more secure the system becomes.

Excuse me, I need to go install Linux or BSD with OpenOffice, Firefox, and Thunderbird... by your definition, they're about a googleplex times more secure than Windows. And OS X isn't that far behind.

posted by anonymouscoward at 12:20 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



But electronic vote tabulation is filled with opportunities for meddling with the election in totally undetectable ways,

Also keep in mind AC that Diebold doesn't tabulate results, the Board does. And the number of votes on the memory card has to match the difference of the beginning and ending ballot count in our clerks book.

Also the number of voters is also listed when they signed the Signature book and when the Name and Address is listed on another page in the Clerk's book. There's several backups to determine if anything was meddled with. Clerk's book, signature book, ballot counts, etc. If the difference in ballot counts (taken from the bottom of the screen on the machine) are the same as the number of voters who passed by, but yet the memory card tabulates more votes -- then you will know if it was tampered with from within the code, but yet you will know it was tampered with.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:21 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I don't think that's a wise idea to share election system source code freely to whomever, whenever. Linux is definately more secure than Windows, BUTTTTTTTT it has its' holes too. So no matter what, you're never going to have completely secure.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:24 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I just got done with a project where another company had suggested wireless for a bank branch communication project.

Bad, bad idea. So many ways around wireless security it isn't even funny.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:28 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I think some House seats are still having votes counted or recounted. Anyway, at the moment, the Democrats have made the following gains:

House: 29
Senate: 6
Governorships: 6


In other election news:

"Voters in seven states approved measures to ban gay marriage."

"[B]allot initiatives to raise the minimum wage were approved in all six states where they were offered."

"In Michigan, voters approved a measure outlawing the use by public institutions of affirmative action programs that give preferential treatment based on race, gender, ethnicity or national origin. Though the measure was opposed by business and labor leaders as well advocates for minority groups, the measure passed by a vote of 58 percent to 42 percent."

"In Missouri, a measure to permit stem cell research was apparently approved by a 51 to 49 percent margin, with 98 percent of ballots counted."

"A referendum in South Dakota to uphold that state’s strict ban on abortion, intended to prompt a Supreme Court ruling, was rejected by voters by a 56 percent to 44 percent margin."

"An advisory referendum in Wisconsin on whether the death penalty could be imposed in first-degree murder cases with DNA evidence was approved with a 56 percent majority."

"In California, voters rejected measures to require parental notification before an abortion and to tax oil companies to pay for alternative energy programs, but approved one to toughen penalties and parole terms for sex offenders."

posted by jr at 12:29 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I'm curious about your thoughts on the Lucas County Auditor's race. Do you think that it was more fallout from the Noe scandal? I did not think that Lopez was going to win. Your thoughts?
posted by corky at 12:34 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I decided to pass up the great opportunity of $15/hr

I know of a great opportunity for you at $20/hr. You can be the test pilot for a brand new aircraft design which bears a startling resemblance to a cement mixer and will be launched from the High Level bridge with the test pilot chained to the steering wheel.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The best thing I've read here in months. 8^D

posted by Darkseid at 12:35 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Dem's made some big gains. If Nancy Pelosi can get the Dem's to do what she has said she will do, and do it early on, that will help give the boost to Dem's for the Presidential election.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:37 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I'm curious about your thoughts on the Lucas County Auditor's race. Do you think that it was more fallout from the Noe scandal? I did not think that Lopez was going to win. Your thoughts?

I thought more were ticked off about the recent property valuations IMO, but could have very well been Noe too.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:44 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



So Rumsfield is resigning?
posted by jr at 12:52 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I was just getting ready to create a new topic on it.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:55 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Go ahead and start a new thread, since this one has gotten long.
posted by jr at 12:58 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



From the Blade:

OHIO VOTE TOTALS

Updated at 5:21a.m., 98.21 percent reporting.
Projected winner - *

Governor
Ted Strickland (D) -- 2, 253,757 *
Ken Blackwell (R) -- 1,382,644

U.S. Senator
Sherrod Brown (D) -- 2,086,784*
Mike DeWine (R) -- 1,648,165

Attorney General
Marc Dann (D) – 1,882,157 *
Betty Montgomery (R) -- 1,711,767

Secretary of State
Jennifer Brunner (D) – 1,946,140 *
Greg Hartmann (R) -- 1,448,998

Treasurer
Richard Cordray (D) -- 2,055,975 *
Sandra O'Brien (R) -- 1,516,607

Auditor
Barbara Sykes (D) -- 1,744,481
Mary Taylor (R) -- 1,819,038 *

Justice of the Supreme Court
William O'Neill (D) -- 1,179,960
Terrence O'Donnell (R) -- 1,728,960 *

Justice of the Supreme Court
Ben Espy (D) – 1,344,386
Robert Cupp (R) -- 1,564,662 *

State Issue 2 (increase in state minimum wage)
For -- 1,976,556 *
Against -- 1,542,443

State Issue 3 (slot machines to raise $$ for college tuition)
For -- 1,574,866
Against -- 2,065,076 *

State Issue 4 (weak smoking ban)
For -- 1,304,067
Against -- 2,346,836 *

State Issue 5 (strong smoking ban)
For -- 2,133,251 *
Against -- 1,525,899


LUCAS COUNTY VOTE
Updated at 3:37a.m. with 100 percent of precincts reporting.

County Commissioner
Ben Konop (D) -- 87,583 *
George Sarantou – 48,785

County Auditor
Anita Lopez (D) – 74,981 *
Larry Kaczala (R) – 62,783

Toledo City Council (at-large)
Joe McNamara (D) – 25,993 *
Lourdes Santiago (D) – 22,497
Bob Vasquez (D) – 11,475
James Mohn (D) – 2,242
Dave Schulz (R) – 9,376
Dave Davison (I) – 2,242

Toledo Zoo (1-mill capital levy)
For – 82,418 *
Against – 56,807

COSI (0.167-mill operating levy)
For – 68,155
Against – 69,760 *

Children Services (1.4-mill levy)
For – 87,109 *
Against – 50,340

Emergency Services (0.7-mill)
For – 87,327 *
Against -- 49,276

posted by jr at 01:08 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



My favorite is Ken Blackwell's loss. He got womped on.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 01:13 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #






posted by anonymouscoward at 01:25 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



MsPhoenix and tm

Thanks!

posted by purnhrt at 01:49 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Not to worry AC...as soon as I was able to talk I did so. And disabused them of the idea.

But can you imagine???? Shudder

T++ yeah I know it.

posted by katie82640 at 02:02 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I am very pleased with the Strickland, Brown, Konop bop!
Sarantou should take notice that all his “experience” was overlooked for someone with “none” (in his words). Hmmmm, interesting.
*hit it Sheryl*
I think a change - will do you good.

posted by Ampage at 02:08 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Here's something that baffles me. Within Lucas County, these are the totals for the two smoking ban issues:

Issue 4 (like Toledo's current smoking ban)

Yes 39.81%
NO 60.19%


Issue 5 (like Toledo's strict smoking ban that was implemented in 2003 and was overturned by voters two years ago)

YES 59.35%
No 40.65%

Now this is a county-wide vote, but Toledo contains about 67% of Lucas County's population.

Yesterday, Toledoans voted FOR the strict smoking ban that they overturned two years ago. So what was the point of Toledoans voting against the strict smoking ban in 2004?

Oh wait, now it's a statewide strict ban, so that makes it more fair everyone, since Toledo won't be competing with the surrounding communities anymore. This smoking issue apparently was never about allowing private businesses the right to choose whether or not to allow a legal activity, but more about passing legislation to protect stupid people from themselves, since stupid people probably cannot comprehend signs that say "Smoking Permitted" before patronizing or seeking employment at a smoking establishment.

Yeah, okay, that makes sense. Dolts.

In 2004, Ohioans voted to ban same-sex marriage. In 2006, Ohioans voted to force private business owners to ban a legal activity. Ohio is definitely becoming the anti-freedom state.

posted by jr at 02:15 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Apples, meet Oranges.

I can’t wait to be able to go out and not have to come home and change my clothes, take a bath and puke after being assaulted by someones smoke. Nw they can all start their own little private smoke parties. Smell ya later.

posted by Ampage at 02:26 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



John McCain joked on Wednesday he would "commit suicide" if Democrats win the Senate in November.

I think I'd just commit suicide," McCain told reporters, to accompanying laughter from Republicans standing with him. "I don't want to face that eventuality because I don't think it's going to happen


Dear Senator McCain, my advice to you is to remember that it's down the block, not across the street.

posted by anonymouscoward at 02:26 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Ampage, are you choosing on your own free will to be around someone else's smoke, or are you forced to be around it? If the former, what happened to your ability to decide not to be around the smoke?
posted by jr at 02:35 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Well, since you asked. Take last week for example, we were heading out of town and I was a passenger in the car. First they wanted to stop off at a restaurant. Was I supposed to sit in the car and wait for them? I went in and was bombarded with stink. I think a big reason that it passed is because people have had 2 years to see how the “limited” smoking areas didn’t work. You want to kill yourself, do it at home. You can’t bring firearms into bars either, should that be overturned because it’s the patrons choice to go in there and they should just take their chances? Should only people we want to be riddled with lung cancer be waitresses or bartenders? Bottom line, it will benefit everyone in the long run, even those that will be huddled outside in the winter peering in through the frosted windows at all the nice and cozy non-smokers inside while they disrupt their evening to go choke a smoke. I didn’t quit smoking just to turn around and breathe in everyone else’s filthy air.


No hate – just hate smoke.

posted by Ampage at 02:45 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I'd nail it.



posted by Darkseid at 02:54 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #




posted by Darkseid at 02:56 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



posted by Ampage at 02:45 P.M. EDT on Wed Nov 08, 2006 #
--------------------------------------------

What an arrogant elitist prick you are.

posted by Darkseid at 03:20 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Gee, AC and Darkseid, thanks for using up space on those Photo's. That really adds to the topic. Hey The Blade, your coverage sucks big time. Oh Yeah, I think someone told me there was an opening for a State School Board Race for District 2. No mention in the Rag today. I hope the other print media in town print all the results from the election.
posted by Attitude at 03:21 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



If you Issue 5 supporters think that this type of policing ends with smoking, you're living in a different universe. The next ban or control or sin tax could be something you disagree with, but it will be too late.

"First they wanted to stop off at a restaurant."

That's it? That's your big example for supporting Issue 5?

Oh, at that restaurant, did you consume anything that could be remotely considered "junk food," like a soda or something fried or maybe a dessert? If so, you are a burden to society, since obesity-related illnesses are number 2 after smoking for preventable deaths. And by consuming junk food, you are driving up my health care costs, since you are increasing your chances for colds, the flu, etc. So we need bans and sin taxes on junk food to protect us from ourselves, which will "benefit everyone in the long run."

"Should only people we want to be riddled with lung cancer be waitresses or bartenders?"

That's an idiotic statement. Who is forcing these people to work in a smoking establishment? And what's wrong with the free market? If non-smoking bars or restaurants were so glorious, why haven't more people opened such establishments years ago? If at least 70% of the public doesn't smoke, why not open a smoke-free bar to go after the larger piece of the pie?

"Was I supposed to sit in the car and wait for them?"

Uh, yes, if tobacco smoke is that repulsive to you. You should have asked to go somewhere else or do a drive thru for you later. Get new friends who don't smoke. Convince your friends to quit smoking. Assume responsibility. Did you lose all common sense?

"I went in and was bombarded with stink."

I guess you answered my question. You chose to enter an environment you dislike. You did that, not the restaurant owner. You are obviously too feeble to take responsibility for your own actions, so you demand laws be passed. So based upon the fact that you hang out with friends who smoke, you want a private business owner to ban a legal activity. I think I'm following your lunacy.

posted by jr at 03:40 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



LMAO! Nobody is forcing greasy burgers down my throat and if they were, you are right I would want it against the law to do so. Hey – what do you know? It already is against the law, it would be considered assault.
I gave a for instance – do you want a play by play of how smoke bothers me on a daily basis? I didn’t think so. I am sorry if you are a smoker and are now going to be inconvenienced – some of us have been inconvenienced for years. Deal with it. Stay home and feebly smoke your cigarettes or get some balls and quit. Nobody wants to pay your medical bills either.
We won – you lost – boo freaking hoo.

posted by Ampage at 03:51 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Hey congratulations to those on the left. Good work :)
posted by babbleman at 05:17 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



You can’t bring firearms into bars either

Which is something that should be completely legal, and which I'd be very comfortable with. I looked around the Distillery last night and imagined all of the patrons armed with fully automatic weapons, and found that thought somewhat comforting. In fact, the only armed people who frighten me are the police, because the law allows them to kill and get away with it.

I'm speculating here, but I would venture to say that the anti-smoking crowd grew numerous enough to have political clout, got organized and voted. The problem for non-smokers exists because it is easier to permit smoking in any establishment than to suppress it, and by permitting smoking the establishment includes everyone instead of excluding a group. Case in point, AmPage went into the restaurant and ate instead of insisting the group find a smoke free restaurant or eat burgers in the car. He isn’t alone in this behavior.

Having non-smokers boycott restaurants that allow smoking wasn't working, so they (anti-smoking people) tried something else, which, as it turns out, may get them what they want. Or at least what they think they want. However, consider: The people who smoke will seek out establishments that allow smoking. They’ll go out of their way to find these places, and they’ll pay a little more to enjoy themselves. In the Toledo area that will be as easy as crossing the Michigan line. That segment of the business will take a certain number of non-smokers with them.

So, thanks to the anti-smoking posse, places like Jim’s Distillery will close and the economy will suffer. I really hope that doesn’t happen, but I kind of think it will. I was in the Distillery and wasn’t bothered by smoke, not that it matters much.

For once I agree with JR. Smoking is legal. If people are serious about limiting tobacco use, start by eliminating the government subsidies for tobacco. We purport to be a free country, and yet the US enacts more laws restricting freedom every year, which is a sad state of affairs. The frightening part is that this condition is supported by a large sector of the adult population who want to live in a world where they are told what to do every waking minute of their lives, believing that governmental control will somehow keep them safe.

posted by madjack at 05:30 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).” - Ayn Rand
posted by MaggieThurber at 05:45 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



i wonder how smokefree supporters feel about the use/ abuse of emminent domain. the continued expansion of govt frightens me.
posted by wholesaler1972 at 05:47 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Maggie - I agree with that quote whole heartedly. But we need to realize that "individual" means one. 10 people in a room - 1 smokes, the individual - all 10 are affected. Truth be told, if smoke just stunk - thats one thing, but it kills. I wonder if anybody here ever watched their friend hold their 50 year old father as he lay on the bathroom floor literally coughing up parts of his insides?


Eminent domain is damn scary and the situation across the line is unbelievably wrong.

posted by Ampage at 05:54 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



for the state up north.......

proposal 1 passed, requiring conservation funds to be spent on conservation/ recreation programs and not spent on unrelated expenses.

proposal 2 passed, banning most afformative action programs.

proposal 3 failed, not allowing the hunting of doves.

proposal 4 passed, preventing the govt taking of property for economic development or other private individuals.

proposal 5 failed, keeping the state off the hook for outrageous funding for school districts.

it looks like MI and OH are traveling on different routes. they seem to be passing up on more govt while we embrace it.

well, at least we have a better football team.

posted by wholesaler1972 at 06:24 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Ampage - you miss the point completely. The issue has nothing to do with smokers or non-smokers. The individual in question is the property owner. The state is seizing control of that property.
posted by babbleman at 06:26 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Gee, AC and Darkseid, thanks for using up space on those Photo's. That really adds to the topic.
-"attitude"
--------------------------------------------

Tough shit. Sometimes you need to lighten up to keep your blood pressure down. You sure picked the right screen name.

Oh...by the way...sorry to burst your bubble on the slippery slope argument that was poo-poohed, but unfortunately-all those greasy burgers might as well be shoved down your throats, because you ARE ALL paying for the health care of the fat (i refuse to be politically correct & say 'obese')people in society. Therefore we need laws governing food, as well as massive taxes on certain things. Hey, I'm all for it. Let's go all the way with socialism, rather than half-step.

posted by Darkseid at 06:27 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Hey congratulations to those on the left. Good work :)

Babs, classy post. You do mean it, right???

Darkseid, photos were hilarious...and I'm Democrat.

posted by McCaskey at 06:33 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Let's go all the way with socialism, rather than half-step.

Skol Komrade! Socialism all the way!! It has such a wonderful track record!!

posted by billy at 06:36 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Therefore we need laws governing food

that's being done now. govt is now dictating what type of oils are used in cooking.

is that making french fries healthy? mmmmm

posted by wholesaler1972 at 06:36 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Thank you for joining us Madjack, Katie, DoKnowDoCare, and Steve. Nina and I had a lot of fun and it was good to have your support. Thank you too madjack for calling the money error to my attention. That kind of honesty breeds good karma.
posted by jimavolt at 06:39 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I wonder if anybody here ever watched their friend hold their 50 year old father as he lay on the bathroom floor literally coughing up parts of his insides?

Nope, never did that.

But I did drop an Ativan underneath my husband's tongue to get him to relax, just mere moments before he died from colon cancer at the age of 32.

Gee, I wonder if there's something we can legislate so that no one else ever has to go through that experience....

What I'm trying to say is that every time someone brings up health related to this issue, I want to scream. Yes, people get cancer. Sometimes, it's caused by smoking. Sometimes, it's not. Sometimes, people who smoke (like my mom) frustrate the living hell out of their doctors because they are perfectly healthy - even though they smoke.

People can legislate all they want in the name of health, but in the end, we all die. Some of us much, MUCH, sooner than others.

posted by valbee at 06:49 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



You do mean it, right???

Absolutely.

posted by babbleman at 07:13 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Ampage - you miss the point completely. The issue has nothing to do with smokers or non-smokers. The individual in question is the property owner. The state is seizing control of that property.

Said property owner should make said property private then. Done deal - case closed - happy campers all.

posted by Ampage at 07:22 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Wow - these posts are getting crazy. Lets just agree to disagree. All I know is that I will be enjoying my cold Coronas alot more now without the funk.
posted by Ampage at 07:51 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Said property owner should make said property private then

that's just senseless. do these private property owners/ business have the right to make their establishment "private", such as a private club?

here's one important right.....the right of refusal. a nonsmoker, such as myself, has the right to say no to a restaurant, bar, or whatever. ampage, you had the chance to say no. instead, you went willingly into another person's property where smoking took place.

you should have said something to your friends.

also, don't worry about the bartenders/ servers. they're adults and they can make their own decisions.....just like you did when you entered the restaurant.

posted by wholesaler1972 at 07:56 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I'm glad I don't live in madjack's world where the cops are the killers and not the protectors.
posted by MikeyA at 08:02 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Said property owner should make said property private then. Done deal - case closed - happy campers all.

What do you think a restaurant or a bar is? It's a private business.

posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 08:10 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Um, no - no it isn't when it is open to the PUBLIC. That seems to be the big misunderstanding here. Not sure why it is so hard to grasp. Are you Pro-asbestos too? Don't have cancer causing smoke floating around your public place of beeswax. Make it private, capishe? Dives will do so - decent places to enjoy a cocktail will not and all will be well. Bitch at them, not me.
posted by Ampage at 08:44 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



I feel for the people that own small restaurants and taverns and employ high school kids in the kitchen. Between the smoking ban AND the increase in minimum wage, thier world just got turned upside-down.

Hell, the argument holds true even for bigger restaurants. Assume a restaurant had the following standard pay schedule:

Disher. . . 5.15
new cook . . . 6.50
Line cook . . . 7.00
Bartender . . . 7.00

Now, by law, the disher's wages are about to go up $1.70 per hour to 6.85. How about the other employees listed above? You sure can't pay a semi-skilled line cook $0.15 more than a disher. The increases will be in keeping with the increase at the lower level. Thus four (and likely more) classes of employees are affected by the increase at the lowest level.

Brace yourself - restaurant and bar prices are going up and it's completely out of the control of the owner of the business.

Not very business freindly . . . .

posted by jimavolt at 08:54 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



The five stages of grief:

Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

Right now, I think some people are clearly demonstrating the second stage.

posted by junta330 at 08:55 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Sorry, that wasn't in reference to you jim.
posted by junta330 at 08:57 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Oh - no! My drink just went up 25 cents so some poor single mom can pay her heat this month. BOO HOO ME! This forum is really pissing me off. Come on Toledo - get a clue!
posted by Ampage at 08:58 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Um, no - no it isn't when it is open to the PUBLIC

it is a privately-owned establisment. if you don't like their place of business, stay out. that's the way it should work, but, unfortunately, there are too many dopes that just don't get it.

posted by wholesaler1972 at 09:03 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Hey Ampage, It's been a long battle and I'm weary of dealing with the topic. Forgive me if I seem blunt, but you clearly haven't taken the time to read the fucking law you voted for.

In order to become a private club and allow smoking under the ordinance you voted for, among other things, the operation needs to:

1. Be formed as a not-for-profit 501(c)3 corporation and have federal approval as such.
2. Have no employees (zero that is, no part time bookkeepers or paid bartenders, waitstaff, cooks, etc.)
3. Exist in a stand-alone building.
4. Never allow any non-members to enter.

"Make it private"? Get real.

posted by jimavolt at 09:06 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



ampage, do you like the fact the minimum wage issue was an amendment to the state constitution? do you like the fact employee records practically become public record?

hell, even the blade called for issue 2 to be voted down.

posted by wholesaler1972 at 09:10 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Webb has won Virginia for the Dems. They have majority in the Senate. Barring a recount, I suppose.
Sweet icing on the cake.

posted by McCaskey at 09:16 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



We're cool Junta. I don't have much tolerance for boisterous clueless folks. Maybe I'd better call it a night. Take care.
posted by jimavolt at 09:16 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Ampage,

I think you should remember that nobody likes a gloater. Perhaps you just need to remind yourself that your side won and be content with that.

posted by junta330 at 09:20 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Hey Ampage, It's been a long battle and I'm weary of dealing with the topic. Forgive me if I seem blunt, but you clearly haven't taken the time to read the fucking law you voted for.

In order to become a private club and allow smoking under the ordinance you voted for, among other things, the operation needs to:

1. Be formed as a not-for-profit 501(c)3 corporation and have federal approval as such.
2. Have no employees (zero that is, no part time bookkeepers or paid bartenders, waitstaff, cooks, etc.)
3. Exist in a stand-alone building.
4. Never allow any non-members to enter.



Interesting - ever hear of FOE?

posted by Ampage at 09:27 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



If she doesn't know how to save a jpg, she probably doesn't have her antivirus software up to date.

what does one have to do with the other and what is a jpg. You know they just give us single mothers sh*t without instructions?

posted by purnhrt at 10:18 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Oh - no! My drink just went up 25 cents so some poor single mom can pay her heat this month. BOO HOO ME! This forum is really pissing me off. Come on Toledo - get a clue!
Ouch!!! posted by Ampage at 08:58 P.M. EDT on Wed Nov 08, 2006 #


Ampage - you certainly don't know diddly about real life.

1. If you had one whits bit of sense, or half a testicle you would either (a) find new friends that don't smoke, (b) have the balls to ask them not to smoke around you, or (c) learn to play well with others.

2. IF you weren't some social reject you wouldn't hesitate about finding new friends.

3. WHEN you are not allowed in a grocery store because you have on a blue shirt and it's yellow shirt day, or

3. WHEN you want that double whopper but can't have it because you have already had your rations for the month, or

4. WHEN you meet up with some girl who is the absolute living end, you take her home and life proceeds in the directions hormones will take you but afterwards she lights a cigarette - are you going to toss her out a window?

You are obviously one of those 'beings' that cannot make rational decisions for themselves, so therefore the government must intervene on your behalf. Did the teacher not save you from the bullies at school enough times??? Do you have some deep seated hatred of single moms???

You need help.

And, for the record, being a mom - single or otherwise - is the toughest job in the world. You wouldn't have what it takes to pull it off - no matter what side of the parent gender you qualify as. You need to get over your false sense of security. And prepare to hand over more and more control to idiots just like you.

One more thing - in my personal opinion you are a obsequious a-hole. Thanks for reading.

posted by DoknowDocare at 10:37 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Jim - Thank you to you and your wife. As usual a good time was had by all.

Madjack - was great to meet ya! We'll all have to do it again sometime!

posted by DoknowDocare at 10:47 P.M. EST on Wed Nov 08, 2006     #



Wow – I would respond to that list if I could stop laughing.

And I never said anything AGAINST single moms, my post clearly was in defense of someone working to support their family and how if they jack the prices of things up to make up for the all the business they are supposedly going to lose (hasn’t happened in CA, NY, or CO – hmmm) that I would not complain.

I see I joined this forum much too late – you all have already made your little super defensive family.

That’s why I started with “No hate – just hate smoke”, but everyone had to get nasty. You can still smoke, smoking isn’t banned – just the locations. The people have spoken.

posted by Ampage at 08:31 A.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



The main reason behind minimum wage hikes is to help improve overall conditions of the low man on the totem poll. It's been widely known that the only way to create a better standard of living is through benefits. This is why I think Ronald Reagan was 30 years ahead of his time.

In 1976 he proposed that instead of raising the mimimum wage what the government should do is buy basic health coverage for the poorest in the society. Do it on a sliding scale so that the person makeing the lowest gets more paid then people in the middle class. This achieves many things.

1. It improves the standard of living. 2. It makes health care universal (something Democrats have wanted for years) 3. It keeps health care privatized (something Republicans have supported) 4. It insures the greatest portion of our society that is uninsured the 18-30 yr old age bracket.

For businesses that buy these benefits for their employees already then exempt them from the tax. This holds businessowners accountable for their employees.

posted by MikeyA at 08:46 A.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



We had alot of issues this time around that appealed to the very best in us (college education for kids, raising the minimum wage, smoking in public etc.) and were issues that we could all get behind.

The problem is alot of people aren't reading the fine print. These things will result in:

1. Smoking ban. This opens the door for a small group to control the legal behavior of everyone in Ohio - to suit their tastes. As I said - I'm pretty certain that weight will be the next topic, following that - who has a guess what will be the next preference to be legislated to us? Remember this was a legal behavior. Now it's controlled by the state.

2. Earn and Learn. This had a good turnout - the people who were behind this one accept what the political marketing people have come to understand - which is Ohio is a great jump off point to whittle away the freedoms contained in the Bill of Rights - if you can come up with a sympathetic issue, the voters will usually go for it without regard to what the underlying issue is. Opens alot of doors for alot of special interest groups.

3. Minimum wage - what one person doesn't think that minimum wage is too low? Another issue most people can get behind. However, the underlying issue is that we have now lost the right to expect that our payroll information will be kept private. Again - another decision that other special interests will ride in on in the future with their own agenda.

A right lost is a right lost. Anybody remember the eminent domain decision from a couple of years ago? One little step at a time.

We’ve gone from a nation who believed that even if we didn’t agree with or like the decisions that other people made with their freedoms – we stood ready for their right to make those choices to a nation who, when special interest groups, is quite ready to just do away with the rights to make those decisions.

We are no longer facing a slippery slope, we are voluntarily sliding staight down the face of the mountain

posted by katie82640 at 11:05 A.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



Ampage said:

"I am sorry if you are a smoker and are now going to be inconvenienced – some of us have been inconvenienced for years. Deal with it. Stay home and feebly smoke your cigarettes or get some balls and quit. Nobody wants to pay your medical bills either."

Ampage, you mental defective, I don't smoke, and I've never been a smoker. The only thing I have ever smoked in my life has been four fine cigars over the past four years at the Bronze Boar in downtown Toledo. So I'm currently on a once-a-year cigar plan, but I haven't met my 2006 quota yet.

I don't like being around cigarette smoke. Never have. I won't allow it in my car or home.

I'm talking about the rights of private business owners and the freedom of choice we individuals are suppose to have. I realize these concepts are totally missed by your little brain.

I choose what businesses to patronize based upon the services they offer and their environment. Since I don't like being around cigarette smoke, I would normally choose a business that didn't allow smoking.

And if I really wanted to enter a business where the owner had decided to allow smoking, I would bite the bullet and put up with smoke. The fun outweighed the annoying cigarette smoke. Simple. Plus, they make these incredible devices called washing machines, which help rid clothes of the cigarette smoke smell.

I don't need to ask the government for help or demand bans be passed to help me make decisions I can make on my own. These are CHOICES I make.

And Ampage, you mention medical bills. Do you and the other Issue 5 supporters realize the medical bills caused by poor eating habits, and a lot of that is due to junk food consumption?

If it's about health issues, then you're targeting the wrong product, since a greater percentage of the public consumes junk food. And your junk food consumption is driving up my health care costs. Nobody wants to pay for your medical bills.

posted by jr at 11:18 A.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



There is a correlation between being overweight and poor health. Let's charge higher health insurance premiums to overweight people. The more overweight one is, the more should be the health care premium.
And perhaps, we should also charge airfares by a person's weight. After all the amount of fuel consumed is also correlated to the weight of the payload.
Also, I say we should pass a law prohibiting the use of perfumes and colognes in public. There are people who are allergic to some of those perfumes and colognes and/or are sensitive to them. Why should some people suffer because other inconsiderate people want to smell things up with scents that may even bring about an asthma attack? If you want to splash your body with smelly crap, do so in the privacy of your home all you want. I should not be forced to breathe your nonhuman aromas in public places.

posted by Beowulf at 12:11 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



I wonder if anybody here ever watched their friend hold their 50 year old father as he lay on the bathroom floor literally coughing up parts of his insides?
---------------------------------------------

That is/was indeed tragic. And, I'm assuming-that was caused undeniably by "SECOND-HAND SMOKE"? That is, after all, what we are talking about here-NOT primary smoking.

My Mother died of cirrhosis(sp?) of the liver. Not a very pretty death, either. Guess
what? She never drank a drop of alcohol in her entire life. And a tip of Darkseid's hat to single Moms everywhere! 8^D

posted by Darkseid at 01:43 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



:-) It's funny that issue came up. But years ago when a woman was left to raise children on her own through abandonment or death - it was seen as though something bad happened to her.

I know I made a promise till death do us part - HE made a promise till it's more fun somewhere else than taking care of a baby and sharing the wife's attention with another human :-)

Now I see the above references and this isn't the only place that rather than something bad having happened to me - I am bad and that's why it happened.

The only things I've ever wanted to be was a wife and a mother. I'll settle for the mother part - but I didn't break my promises or my marriage - and something very bad did happen to me. I wish people would rethink their positions sometimes on what happens to people after their trust is broken and they have to figure out how to do everything alone.

posted by katie82640 at 01:48 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



Minimum wage - what one person doesn't think that minimum wage is too low? Another issue most people can get behind. However, the underlying issue is that we have now lost the right to expect that our payroll information will be kept private.

I called the waaaaaaaaaamblance for you. Seems that your bank account balance was already readily available anyhow along with a whole other list of "private" info. Crying about your lost "payroll information" privacy is a waste, because you were silent when they came for the privacy on lots of other information.

posted by anonymouscoward at 03:28 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



ananymouscoward - that claim of identity theft is so spurious in nature that it is just plain unbeleivable. I am an employer who voted FOR the increase in minimum wage. The record keeping for payroll as outlined in the Issue is neither unduly burdonsome or reckless. It is what most prudent employers already do to protect themselves in case of an audit or in case of a calim by an employee of improper withholding. It does protect the employee. Every year countless businesses go under and fail to meet their final payroll obligation. Often employees walk up to the business door and find a closed sign and no way to contact the owner/s. Worse are the ones who issue NSF payroll checks. A very prominent local restaurant management company had a habit of closing an unprofitable franchise with no warning and not giving the employees their final pay. The employees were mostly teens who had no idea who owned the company and no outside phone number or any contact information for management. They just plain got stiffed. I once called Mary Alice Powell and she kindly gave me the true corporate owner of a local closed franchise so that the kids (children of one of my employees) could find someone from whom to get their paychecks. A certain class of "contractors" often skip out on paying their subs, leaving the subs to chase them down if they can find them. It is about time these employees had some protection from unscrupulous employers.
posted by holland at 03:52 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



chalk up AC on the State control side then? And fyi - my bank info is not public information - one of the few who avoided being hit (to date at least).

But if my banking info does become public information it will be through illegal activity.

If you're ok with information about your income/finances becoming legally available to other people - then we'll have to disagree on that one.

As far as the waaambulance - thanks for a smile today. Was the first one.

posted by katie82640 at 04:18 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



Oops, forgot to post a link. There has been alot of legislative activity regarding what banks can and cannot do - in 1999 this was passed to ensure the right to privacy of our bank records and information altogether.
posted by katie82640 at 04:24 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



That’s why I started with “No hate – just hate smoke”, but everyone had to get nasty. You can still smoke, smoking isn’t banned – just the locations. The people have spoken.
Ouch!!! posted by Ampage at 08:31 A.M. EDT on Thu Nov 09, 2006 #


Everyone got nasty?

JR, excellent post.

Ampage, I hate to break the news to you, but before this legislation passed, there were already smoke-free establishments available for your needs.

Too bad you're too fucking lazy to open the phone book to call around and instead need some legislation to do the work for you and make the whole state smokefree.

Speaks volumes about your integrity and abilities.

I certainly hope, that because you lack it, you'll not be inspired to make "logic" illegal.

It has nothing to do with your "worrying about being accepted", it's about common sense, something that obviously eludes you.

posted by BrianInFlorida at 06:25 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



Ampage, you ask if I'd ever heard of the FOE ? ? ? Are you now recommending that saloons should become satellite locations for Eagles clubs?

Bill Delaney will be so relieved whe he hears your wonderful idea. How foolish he was to worry about the fate of the tavern he's operated for 23 years.

posted by jimavolt at 06:45 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



chalk up AC on the State control side then? And fyi - my bank info is not public information - one of the few who avoided being hit (to date at least).

State control my ass. I voted for 4 with the hope that maybe it'd pass and trump 5, which was voting for the lesser of two evils, since I was afraid that voting no on both would just let the Issue 5 advocates win.

And I'm sure I could call up Choicepoint and get a hell of a lot of detailed financial info on you, because 98% of you people who cry about your privacy NEVER EVER BOTHER TO READ THE AGREEMENTS, PRIVACY POLICIES, AND LAWS! Might want to take a look at your bank's privacy policy there and see who they can share your data with... "affiliated entities"... meaning anyone they sign a contract with gets it too... and there you go.

I bet you're one of those people who signed up for some "rewards program" or something like that... and hey, answer the little questionaire including your average income and suddenly thousands of companies are falling all over themselves to give you special offers.

I know just how many idiots don't bother reading the fine print, because I get called when they install fifty kinds of spyware and adware WHICH CLEARLY SAID IT WAS GOING TO BE INSTALLED when they install something else... of course it was tucked away in the agreement. "I have no idea how this got on my system!" Yeah right, what browser are you using? IE? Click YES on any "Install ActiveX control" prompts recently? Firefox? Install any programs you downloaded recently?

Try applying for a job nowadays. Credit check, drug test, driving record check, education/enrollment check, and more. I put holds on and activated opt-out and privacy restrictions everywhere I can. I have no doubt that interferes with a lot of things, but at the same time [insert name of institute of higher education] cannot give or sell my information to anyone, including telling an employer my enrollment status, unless they really want a Federal reaming for violating Federal law, and to be renamed AnonymousCowardU after I get done pwning their asses in court.

At the same time, there's jack I can do about employers reporting things, and it's a matter of time before someone falls asleep at the IRS or state tax dept or something and suddenly millions of records end up being traded in IRC channels in China or something. So I find it utterly absurd that you start worrying about "payroll privacy" when you've likely already volunteered your info to dozens of other companies.

posted by anonymouscoward at 07:16 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



I vote at every election. The new machines with touch screen video display are just fine. They have wings on the sides so nobody can eavesdrop on the adjacent voter's screen. I appreciate privacy. Ironically, I got a phone call in the evening from one of those pesky survey agencies who wanted to know what and who I voted for. What the hell kind of privacy do you call that? I told them my votes are confidential and never to call me again.
posted by flinty at 07:37 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



Do you all like to be scared so soon after the mid-term elections, and Halloween? Well check out this little "vote for President 2008 sample ballot and fun vote", guaranteed to scare you right now in 2006!I voted for Wesley Clark, Democrat, and Duncan Hunter for Republican.

http://news.aol.com/dailypulse/110906/_a/2008-fantasy-game/20061109103309990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 08:24 P.M. EST on Thu Nov 09, 2006     #



AC if you called up Choicepoint and accessed my credit record, again, you would have to do that illegally.

No one HAS a right to have that information without my consent. I have opted out of their marketing programs so not so much as my name and address are sold through the big 3 marketing programs.

The companies that are allowed, through the FCRA are companies that I agreed to allow to have access through a credit or employment application or have a standing account with and I agreed in the terms of service. I don't agree to those terms, as a rule. Anyone can opt out of those terms, even with a credit card by returning a copy of the terms of service with the objectionable lines lined through and initialed - and send by registered mail. IF the credit card company doesn't wish to do business on those terms, they are not obligated to do so. I have never had a problem with this.

So if you ever wind up with my info from Choicepoint - it'll show up on my monthly credit alert through my credit monitoring service. And I'll prosecute.

There is quite alot of new banking legislation. Much of it is aimed at protecting your data and providing timelines for banks to return funds to people who have been hit by fraud - and as always there is the Fair Credit Reporting Act - which regulates who is allowed to access and report your credit information.

posted by katie82640 at 10:28 A.M. EST on Fri Nov 10, 2006     #



AC if you called up Choicepoint and accessed my credit record, again, you would have to do that illegally.

Who said anything about Choicepoint and your credit record? You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Choicepoint isn't even one of the three CREDIT REPORTING BUREAUS! Choicepoint has plenty of other data on you though....

Go put on your dunce cap and sit in the corner.

posted by anonymouscoward at 11:31 A.M. EST on Fri Nov 10, 2006     #



AC I'm not attacking or debating here. I just would like to know where you see a difference between a wide range of American companies and agencies accessing our payroll info and American Security Agencies accessing our phone records to prevent terrorism.

Like I said I'm not debating I'm just curious.

For the record I have no problem with people having access to my payroll information as for me it was once public information and will be again in a little over a year and a half.

posted by MikeyA at 11:21 A.M. EST on Sat Nov 11, 2006     #



American Security Agencies accessing our phone records to prevent terrorism.

There's this thing called a warrant which they are required to get in order to spy on our own citizens... which has been upheld for years and years by the courts... and even procedures for wiretapping without a warrant and going to get one after the fact... all procedures that have worked just fine for years and years. Kind of designed to keep the government from locking us up and throwing away the key and denying us any way to show innocence or abuse of power.

On the other hand, Choicepoint and others are gonna see how much I make an hour and so on... oh wait, they already do, from the payroll or check company my employer contracts out to... because the privacy laws are a fucking joke and the anti-regulation crowd just hates the idea of being told they can't maintain massive databases on me and my life, or have to give me a copy of the goods they've got on me, or have to let me correct the problems in their databases that cause massive problems in my life. But, hey, while they have the power to sue me into oblivion, they can't throw me into prison for the rest of my life, it still requires the government to do that.

We already have the laws and legal precedent, right up through the Constitution, which say what the Feds can and can't get away with. I think fighting to protect those rights is of a higher priority than worrying about what kind of living hell *might* result from some corporations having more info on you. Last time I checked, Microsoft, General Electric, Nike, and Wal*Mart weren't allowed to kill people, and if they did, the corporation would at least sacrifice one of their own to cover for the good of the Almighty Dollar. Right now, though, the government can swoop in, abduct you, and torture you to death without a good reason (at least one they have to tell anyone else). How long until they start doing this at the behest of Corporate America? I don't know, but the DeCSS case, where the Motion Picture Ass of America made the Feds go to a foreign government and have that government arrest one of their own nationals in their own country scares me. The fact that the penalties for copyright violation are nastier than a lot of sex crime penalties is damn scary, especially since the recording industry has got an extortion racket set up where you can either pay them $3500 per song you copy or they'll sic the Feds on you for $500,000 and 5 years in jail per song. Never mind that the *REAL* wholesale cost of the song on iTunes is 70 cents or so.

If you stole a $1 bottle of water from Krogers and they gave you a choice between paying them $3500 or going to the cops and paying $500,000 and serving five years, you'd wonder what kind of messed-up world you live in. But we ain't got the laws to regulate Corporate America because the Government is in their pocket. The Government is still accountable to the people, though, and we need to start kicking ass there before we can tackle these sorts of issues with corporations.

posted by anonymouscoward at 12:43 P.M. EST on Sat Nov 11, 2006     #



OK. Thank you for your clarification. I'm not sure if I could argue that if I wanted to.
posted by MikeyA at 08:17 A.M. EST on Sun Nov 12, 2006     #



flinty said: "The new machines with touch screen video display are just fine. They have wings on the sides so nobody can eavesdrop on the adjacent voter's screen."

FALSE. I am more than tall enough to have seen what other people were voting on, at my location. The spacing between these machines was not enough.

flinty said: "I got a phone call in the evening from one of those pesky survey agencies [...] I told them my votes are confidential and never to call me again."

Exit polls are an important way to find out about election fraud (hence how we know there was significant fraud in 2000 and 2004). You're free to refuse to participate; and, considering that a phone call is more identifying than a pollster outside your vote location, it seems rational. But how would you have responded to a pollster?

AC said: "The fact that the penalties for copyright violation are nastier than a lot of sex crime penalties is damn scary, especially since the recording industry has got an extortion racket set up where you can either pay them $3500 per song you copy or they'll sic the Feds on you for $500,000 and 5 years in jail per song. Never mind that the *REAL* wholesale cost of the song on iTunes is 70 cents or so."

The RIAA's alleged $750-per-song assessment is being challenged in court at the moment and may not hold up, since, after all as you pointed out, you can download the same song legally for about $1.00. Corporations love to overcharge on assessment when they think they can get away with it during criminal proceedings. In one instance (during one of Mitnick's indictments, I believe), a telco assessed the damages on a stolen document that some hacker copied from their network to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars. The court challenge in that case revealed through discovery that the telco simply added the cost of the computer system onto the assessment; eventually, the assessment was simply discarded as ridiculous. So, I'm thinking that the RIAA's damage assessments are going to get knocked down quite a bit.

posted by GuestZero at 11:42 A.M. EST on Sun Nov 12, 2006     #



AC --> "Who said anything about Choicepoint and your credit record?...Go put on your dunce cap and sit in the corner."
Ouch!!! posted by anonymouscoward at 11:31 A.M. EDT on Fri Nov 10, 2006

AC --> "And I'm sure I could call up Choicepoint and get a hell of a lot of detailed financial info on you" posted by anonymouscoward at 11:31 A.M. EDT on Fri Nov 10, 2006

{Passes AC a dunce cap}

posted by katie82640 at 01:49 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 15, 2006     #



oops should be that he posted his Choicepoint comment at 07:16 P.M. EDT on Thu Nov 09, 2006
posted by katie82640 at 01:50 A.M. EST on Wed Nov 15, 2006     #



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