Or you could take his word for it and believe that he was genuinely giving a troubled Toledoan another chance. He screwed up and was fired. Get over it.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 07:11 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 07, 2006 #
or i could think anyone who defends this hire as being extremely naive. i could think "does anyone really believe he would have gotten this job if the guy didn't work on carty's campaign?"
i could think that. i could also say "wake up" to the apologists.
posted by wholesaler1972 at 07:26 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 07, 2006 #
Hiring a guy with 8 DUI's to give him a second chance-a good thing. Hiring a guy with 8 DUI's to drive a city vehicle-completely stupid, arrogant and possibly putting the city in danger of being sued if Gary had hit someone this morning while in a city vehicle.
posted by buttonpusher at 07:28 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 07, 2006 #
Hiring a guy with 8 DUI's to give him a second chance-a good thing. Hiring a guy with 8 DUI's to drive a city vehicle-completely stupid, arrogant and possibly putting the city in danger of being sued if Gary had hit someone this morning while in a city vehicle.
Exactly! What next? Hire Rev. Pitts to councel him? Maybe hire the caged kids couple to run a city day care? Tom Noe in charge of the E.S.M perhaps?
posted by billy at 07:47 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 07, 2006 #
Even for Toledo, this is fucking UNBELIEVABLE.
I'm just waiting for anyone to claim that Groszewski was driven to drink recently over the public debate about his hiring. Ohhh, the stress! The stress is just too much!
Now I'm wondering what happened during Groszewski's "interview" with Carty for the job. Let's imagine:
Carty: “Gary, thanks for working on my campaign. Here's a job for you. Remember, you can't drink. It would really look bad for me if you even tested positive for alcohol, since I'm effectively hiring a man to drive a city vehicle after he's had a record of DUIs. Can you work with me, Gary?”
Gary: “No, Mayor, in fact I ha' a fifth in my pocket right now and I'm gonna slosh that down just as soon as I get into the elevator.”
Carty: “Ha-haaa! Always the kidder! Welcome aboard, Gary!”
Gary: {hiccup}
posted by GuestZero at 01:34 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 08, 2006 #
Get over it already! Not everyone on this planet is perfect especially when they are dealing with the alcoholism disease. It's not like Gary went on some recreational drinking before work, I feel sorry for the guy so lay off of him since he got slapped three times in one day. (Fell off the wagon, media hounding on him, and fired from his job)
posted by HolyHolyToledo at 08:51 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 08, 2006 #
I would feel sorry for him if it happened once. Maybe if it happened twice. But not 8 times. That is a blatant disregard for the law and public safety.
posted by MikeyA at 09:10 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 08, 2006 #
Let's remember that there is no cure for alcoholism and it will always be a lifetime-long battle for the individuals who are diagnosed with it. Unfortunately most alcoholics do need a job to work like the rest of us non-alcoholics.
posted by HolyHolyToledo at 09:40 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 08, 2006 #
alcoholics do need a job to work like the rest of us non-alcoholics
but NOT work that puts them behind the wheel!! NOT work that would endanger them or others because of their disease!!
posted by billy at 09:53 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 08, 2006 #
my personal issue with this is not necessarily his "disease". he has every right to get a job, but he doesn't deserve the city employment.
my personal issues revolve around carty's handout of a govt job (using city jobs as his personal entitlement program), how gary got his job (reward for campaign work), and what job/ role he took on (driving city vehicles).
carty continues to show his ego shadows common sense.
posted by wholesaler1972 at 09:56 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 08, 2006 #
I, in no way, feel sorry for this guy about the loss of his job or the arrest BUT I do agree with Holy regarding the attention. A news story is fine, but he did nothing to deserve personal insults. Carty deserves all the abuse in the world - he always seems to thrust his own ego above everything else.
All of you (and I) have issues, especially you GZ. He didn't ask for the attention, he just wanted a job. He did not deserve the job he was given, but that was Carty's mistake, not his. You don't have to feel sorry for the guy, but being ruthless is another thing all together.
posted by MoreThanRhetoric at 10:48 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 08, 2006 #
You don't have to feel sorry for the guy, but being ruthless is another thing all together.
Total number of lives endangered by Tom Noe: 0
Total number of lives endangered by Gary Groszewski: Way more than 0
Why doesn't he deserve to be ridiculed?
posted by thenick at 01:44 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 08, 2006 #
but he did nothing to deserve personal insults.
yes he did. a drunk that just sits home and drinks himself into oblivion is one thing, but someone who gets in a car and gets caught 8 times driving (which means for every time he was caught there were umpteen times he got away with it - ) is the same as someone putting a bullet in a gun, giving the chambers a spin, and pointing at the innocent bystanders. Again, and again, and again, and again...
posted by billy at 02:46 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 08, 2006 #
HolyHolyToledo said: “I feel sorry for the guy so lay off of him since he got slapped three times in one day.”
I've got a clue for you, HHT. This comes free, from me, to you:
"If you were just the subject of a newspaper article with regard to a bad behavior that you might do, it behooves you to avoid that behavior at all costs."
Happy Holidays! I seldom give greater gifts.
Anyway, since there are no coincidences in politics, I am now theorizing the following:
1. The Blade got a tip about Groszewski, his history and his current drinking. That led to the article. That led to Carty's cronies chasing him in order to look proactive, for damage control.
2. Groszewski is actually innocent and a false-positive blood test was already arranged.
Theory #2 is far-fetched ... but this is Toledo, after all, where's it's possible for, say, a mayor to break his wife's arm yet not be charged for domestic violence.
HolyHolyToledo said: “Let's remember that there is no cure for alcoholism and it will always be a lifetime-long battle for the individuals who are diagnosed with it.”
Alcoholism is NOT a disease and those who claim it is are only indulging in delusional thinking. What? What's that, you say? DOCTORS are calling it a "disease"? Well, it sure is a funny disease that makes you go to the store, select your poison, and then count out the right change to buy it.
So much for the "alcoholism is a disease" myth. A disease is a physical affliction that you have no matter how much willpower you use to correct it. Hence, as a shortage of willpower, alcoholism is a character defect and it should be appropriately treated as such: via social stigma and outright "physical correction" (i.e. family members have every right to beat the living shit out of the family alcoholic).
HolyHolyToledo said: “Unfortunately most alcoholics do need a job to work like the rest of us non-alcoholics.”
That's what unions and political offices were for. Without those, most drunks would not be able to earn a living. However, unions are going away, and a certain breed of yuppie-ism is changing the face of politicians. So, drunks are going to be more and more put out of economic and social positions in our culture. I'm largely OK with that, since you can physically go the entire day at work without needing a drop of alcohol.
Note well that if you can handle the effects, a quick beer at the lunch counter before you return to the office is not anything I worry about. I believe that as long as your consumerism doesn't affect your work, then go ahead and indulge. Go ahead and doink that skank, smoke that cig, eat that cookie, quaff that tankard, read that trashy novel, etc.
MoreThanRhetoric said: “All of you (and I) have issues, especially you GZ. He didn't ask for the attention, he just wanted a job. He did not deserve the job he was given, but that was Carty's mistake, not his.”
Sure, I have issues, and I'd be happy to discuss those with you. But I DIDN'T show up drunk to work mere days after a newspaper article appeared about my history of drunkenness. So, you should strongly consider WHO exactly lifted a glass of alcohol to Groszewski's lips before he went to work that day. Or, is there another theory I should be considering? To wit:
3. Some miscreant tied Groszewski down and forced him to drink alcohol before he went to work that day.
Silly me! Me and my "issues"!
Disclaimers: I consume about 12-24 standard servings of alcohol per year. I don't drink and drive, and wouldn't even if it was legal. I've physically beaten a family member for his bad behavior (not because he was drunk -- because he was CRAZY).
posted by GuestZero at 04:16 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 08, 2006 #
GuestZero - Whoa! I have to strongly disagree with the "alcoholohism is not a disease" opinion. It "runs" in my family. I have seen good people spend a lot of energy trying to cope with alcohol addiction. An individual can have a genetic predisposition to this malady. It can be very difficult to stay away from alcohol. From having watched some close family members fight the fight I also know that if you have this malady total abstinance is the ONLY safe coping strategy. Please reconsider your stand. You could unknowingly discourage someone from getting treatment or counseling. And that is NOT a good thing.
posted by holland at 06:05 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 08, 2006 #
Am I the only one seeing a trend with this story?
December 7th
December 8th
December 9th
I mean, this isn't Noegate. Did I miss something?
A message from the Blade to Carty?
posted by BrianInFlorida at 08:36 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 09, 2006 #
I find it funny how HolyHoly says "Let's remember that there is no cure for alcoholism and it will always be a lifetime-long battle for the individuals who are diagnosed with it. Unfortunately most alcoholics do need a job to work like the rest of us non-alcoholics. even though it means people under the influence out on the roads where they put all of our safety in their hands but yet he votes for a smoking ban to keep employees free of second hand smoke.
A drunk behind the wheel will kill more people than a cigarette will. But this doesn't fit into Holy's obscured view as to how he deserves to make decisions for the rest of us.
posted by MikeyA at 04:53 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 09, 2006 #
"A message from the Blade to Carty? " Yep same message they gave Ray Kest: We'll support you on page 10 but trash you on page 1."
posted by MikeyA at 04:54 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 09, 2006 #
I think this is such an extreme example of poor leadership that it may have even incensed the Blade's sensibilities.
Does the city not have a human resources department with a hiring process? I mean doesn't anyone check to see if a person who is being hired to professionally drive city owned vehicles is a chronic drunk driver?
And if so, in this case the formal process would have been circumvented.
There must be a formal vetting process for new hires. The big question is who failed to follow the rules in THIS hire?
posted by katie82640 at 05:43 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 09, 2006 #
holland said: “GuestZero - Whoa! I have to strongly disagree with the "alcoholohism is not a disease" opinion. It "runs" in my family. [blah blah blah]”
It's not an opinion. There is no "disease" that makes you engage in complicated behavior in order to comply with the actual bad effect. If you have an actual disease, no matter how you resist it, you are still subject to its effects. Alcoholism requires you to COOPERATE in order to transform internal desires into external actions.
Since you can't possibly argue otherwise, then what you're trying to promote is the idea that alcoholism is some sort of "mental disease". Even if such a form of disease existed -- and many have argued that "mental diseases" are primarily named creations of our modern psychologists -- then we must run up against the next hard fact: physical punishment is not being tried as a solution. Well, the "crazy" people who have these alleged "diseases" well know that almost no matter what happens, they aren't going to be beaten for their transgressions. Modern society is far to wimpy to engage in that scheme of control anymore. But dismissing corporeal punishment has only created larger expectations on the part of those who wish to victimize the rest of us.
I would tend to blame your family situation on YOU, not so much on your family members who allegedly were "fighting" alcoholism. Modern alkies know that most of you are wimps and suckers and they can largely abuse you to their hearts' content. After too many examples of abuse, instead of the bullies, I start blaming the victims.
holland said: “Please reconsider your stand.”
Hardly. People like YOU are the ones who have swallowed the propaganda that alcoholism is a "disease". People like YOU need to reconsider, not me. *I* am the guy who thought it all through; in contrast, YOU just accepted what the medical establishment told you. What the medical establishment says has to be HEAVILY DISCOUNTED since they have a vast conflict of interest, in that they tend to make everything a "malady" that in turn is almost certain to result in yet another expensive drug produced by Big Pharma. The Western medical establishment wants to make you a slave, by classifying almost everything you do as a "disease" or "psychosis". This should not be surprising since they are run by corporations.
holland said: “You could unknowingly discourage someone from getting treatment or counseling. And that is NOT a good thing.”
Calling alcoholism a "non-disease" has no bearing whatsoever on the terrible effects of what alcoholism does in the first place.
Also, alcoholics can always seek help ... AFTER you've beaten them like dogs for stealing your property, puking on your carpet, beating their own family members in drunken rages, and in general acting like out-of-control morons.
This isn't to say that I approve of counseling. Counselors and the like have yet another conflict of interest. If you get actually well enough to stop seeing them, they have less work to do. Largely, they want patients to continue dancing with them year after year so that they can still get paid. Counselors and psychologists don't actually want you to get well -- they only want you functional enough to continue paying them for their sessions.
What's counseling really for, anyway? "Dave, you fell off the wagon once again, and then beat your girlfriend. You shouldn't have done that, Dave." Dave already knew that he shouldn't have beaten his GF and that drinking led to that end. What's "talking it over" going to really do to improve Dave's behavior?
No, Dave doesn't need counseling. Dave just needs to be beaten to within an inch of his life by the very people he's abused with his alcoholism. Of course, in our wimp society, people almost always don't do that, particularly the ones being abused in the first place -- so alcoholism ends up being a huge problem.
It's the same thing when you refuse to defend yourself. Once the bullies catch on, they double their attacks. Bullies love people who don't fight back. DUH!
Since this is Toledo -- the "Anti-Self Defense Capital of the World" -- I don't really expect you to even understand, Holland. So I'm not talking at you. I'm just mentioning all of this for all the others out there who might come upon a glimmer of understanding about yet another facet of our civilization's vast propaganda machine.
posted by GuestZero at 09:17 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 09, 2006 #
Kate said: “Does the city not have a human resources department with a hiring process? [...] The big question is who failed to follow the rules in THIS hire?”
Toledo's set of "formal" hiring procedures are themselves only a formality to lull the public into thinking that the city government is a fair and unbiased employer. If you speak to enough city employees, the truth is revealed. If Carty (or any mayor) wanted someone hired into the ranks of city employees, then he was hired, period. Also, if a job didn't exist for him, then one would be created.
Even if you did find some procedure that was countered and that you could prove it so, then there's no prosecutor willing to pursue the matter any further. It would be different if you were chasing a pattern of race, sex or age discrimination on the part of the city, but other than that, even an outrageous deviation from the "rules" is entirely possible and unpunishable.
Having a "strong mayor" system of city government is yet another layer of unaccountability and outright corruption. How many times have you heard about employment "at the pleasure of the mayor"? That such a thing exists is a travesty of governmental organization. But this is Toledo, so travesties are the norm.
posted by GuestZero at 09:31 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 09, 2006 #
I have to agree with you GZ on alcoholism not being a disease. I have many alcoholics in my family but I am not one because I choose to not have "crutches" to make myself a victem.
Plus if you think that an addiction like alcoholism is a disease then so is an addiction to smoking. That means the smoking ban violates the Americans with Disabilities Act because they are unfairly discriminating against people with a disease. I mean how can you tell them not to smoke in a resteraunt when they can't control their disease.
posted by MikeyA at 09:46 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 09, 2006 #
Count each day you get up and don't crave alcohol as a blessing.
posted by holland at 10:12 A.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
Holland I count each day as a blessing because I'm blessed. Not because I'm not not adversely affected by bad choices.
If I spent all day reflecting on the bad things that didn't happen to me I would have totally missed the good things that I created for myself.
posted by MikeyA at 11:20 A.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
I also have to agree with GZ about the "non disease" thing.
But then, I believe PMS is bullshit made up by femenists as an excuse to be a bitch. LOL
posted by JeepMaker at 12:16 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
Jeepmaker - you and me ought to talk. About the 20th.
posted by katie82640 at 09:57 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
So back allllllllllllllllllllll the way around to the point where we were discussing someone with a serial history of drunk driving being hired for Toledo to drive a city vehicle?
Helloooo?????? Is there not a policy for hiring official city employees? Specifically drivers?
posted by katie82640 at 10:03 P.M. EST on Sun Dec 10, 2006 #
holland said: “Count each day you get up and don't crave alcohol as a blessing.”
Get off your high horse. I get up each morning, alone, to yet another sexless day. I daresay I understand what a "craving" really is. So, does that mean I can get some doctor to classify me as some sort of "sexaholic"?
No, wait! I certainly feel the craving, yet I DON'T ruin my and other lives in destructive pursuit of sex. So ... the truth is I'm a "dry sexaholic"?
What's stopping me? Hmmm .... maybe it's CHARACTER, chum!
Well, I think I've made my point. Alcoholism is a character defect. All matters of character are our personal responsibility. Saying that it's a "craving" -- hinting at some sort of uncontrollability -- is just fucking horseshit that our society's dweebs have bought into from the medical care system that tries to malady-ize everything.
posted by GuestZero at 06:36 A.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
Exactly GZ. Saying alcoholism is a disease is a way of excusing the behavior. Putting others lives in unjust jeopardy should not be tolerated by any means.
the truth is I'm a "dry sexaholic"? If you fall off the wagon you should meet my ex-girlfriend. I told her I loved her and she thought I said "Sleep with every guy possible."
posted by MikeyA at 08:59 A.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
Mikey, I'd laugh if your situation there wasn't rather traumatic. Still, I do believe the natural Human state is to be rather sexually promiscuous. Our society's problem is that we have widespread lying due to some deranged insistence on monogamy and monamory. Polyamory is quite normal and we should be more accepting of it as similar practitioners. As for polygamy -- the only real perversion here is making it illegal.
Getting back to the topic, the extraordinarily painful thing for me to think about is that this guy Groszewski could have just sauced himself up while off work, and then made sure he showed up sober. It's all too likely that he instead showed up for work with classic signs of drunkenness. The Blade headline for this story should have been:
“Something Bad Happens to Another Dumbass”
posted by GuestZero at 05:50 P.M. EST on Mon Dec 11, 2006 #
Am I the only one concerned that the city may have an HR policy which allows for hiring serial drunk drivers to drive city vehicles?
posted by katie82640 at 10:10 A.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
If the city allows multiple convicted drunk drivers to drive city vehicles then who do they hire to drive the buses? Convicted Child Molesters?
posted by MikeyA at 10:45 A.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
Kate said: “Am I the only one concerned that the city may have an HR policy which allows for hiring serial drunk drivers to drive city vehicles? ”
Kate, I thought I already explained that. It doesn't matter what HR policies exist when no HR worker will oppose the mayor when he wants something. Would you? Getting a city job is difficult enough. I hardly believe any of those cronies would endanger their cushy jobs by taking a principled stand on, well, anything at all.
I don't mean to be flip about it, but I'm sure you could have the fat policy book for the City of Toledo right there in front of you, with promises of rains of flaming locusts in the case of hiring a possible drunkard, but all that doesn't matter. That's official policy. The unfortunate and unofficial policy for Toledo is whatever the mayor wants, he gets. I've heard this from too many city workers by now to question it.
MikeyA said: “If the city allows multiple convicted drunk drivers to drive city vehicles then who do they hire to drive the buses? Convicted Child Molesters?”
No; people with multiple charges of vehicular manslaughter. Sheesh, Mikey, you should have come up with that one yourself!
P.S. Speaking about 'something bad happening to dumbasses', has COSI closed its doors yet? After all, the little darlings were one step away from the poorhouse, insofar as they claimed during the election. The didn't get their levy money, so I can only expect that the lights have already gone off in COSI. Am I right?
posted by GuestZero at 01:45 P.M. EST on Tue Dec 12, 2006 #
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