Carty has his rough spots, but I like him.
posted by ilovetoledo at 07:02 A.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
what a waste of time.
posted by thetoledowire_com at 07:19 A.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
So it's Tom and his family at a rally to recall Carty. This sounds more like a summer homework event than a political one.
posted by brassmonkey at 09:09 A.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
Waste of time or not, the recall is part of the democratic process. The city charter or whatever piece of toilet paper the city lives by provides the recall process to the citizenry. And no valid reason for a recall needs to be given other than "Because the citizens can."
Accumulating valid signatures to put an issue on the ballot. Those opposed to this democratic process should petition city government to change the charter. Recall the recall. What's wrong with allowing a citizen or a group of citizens to participate in that which is provided to them by the charter? What are so many Toledoans afraid of?
Well, this is the People's Republic of Toledo County, which explains why some or many Toledoans are opposed to anything resembling citizen involvement. What's foreign to many Toledoans is the fact that citizens are allowed to be involved politically outside of that one day every November.
Which one describes Toledo County:
* government serves the citizens or
* the citizens serve government?
Who works for whom? Whose money is it?
I think Toledoans rely on government to solve all problems. I think we're suppose to submit to every idea the local government creates. I think we're suppose to resist challenging our local government. I think we're suppose to remove the word "accountability" from our vocabulary.
If the recall made the November ballot, imagine the concern that would engulf the Czarty regime and other local political factions. You know that no one in local government believes this recall effort will go anywhere. Forget about whether or not the voters would support the recall in the November election. Just making the ballot would shock the local political machines. "How dare the citizens take action like that without our permission."
Those upset with the recall have a couple options.
* Don't sign the petition, and
* if the recall makes the ballot, vote to support Carty.
So what's the big deal outside of the remote possibility that the local political forces could be turned upside down?
posted by jr at 09:36 A.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
Seems as though Tom Morrissey’s recall campaign has managed to compress fewer advantages into more words than necessary. Mr. Morrissey has dredged up facts that we are all acutely aware of, he does not appear to offer any solutions. What might his motivation be?
posted by allcan at 10:10 A.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
http://swampbubbles.com/the_carty_recall_effort_an_open_letter_to_thomas_morrissey
posted by zoocheetah at 10:56 A.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
If Carty commits a serious crime, Recall him.
Otherwise, vote for the next mayor. This kid needs to realize Toledo made a choice, now Toledo has to live with its choice until the next election. Simple recalling someone because you don't like their policies or personaliy does not bode well for attracting future mayors.
This kid is an immature idiot that does not think long-term and has some issues with authority. Someday he's going to have to deal with having a boss, a wife, and maybe some kids.
Does he plan on recalling them too when his trip to Disney World doesn't go right?
posted by brassmonkey at 10:57 A.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
What's hilarious is the possibility that Morrissey's recall effort has upset more people than any of the ridiculous legislative ideas proposed over the years by Ford and Carty and supported by Council. Apparently, government riding roughshod over the citizens is fine, but a citizen opposing government is cause for alarm. That's misplaced intellectual energy, and it's a beautiful tragic comedy.
What's the positive side of the current recall effort? Maybe, just maybe, the publicity from this recall effort could get a few more people to become aware of what our local government is doing. Maybe it will cause a few more people to vote or to register to vote, regardless of what or who they support. That can't be a bad thing. Actually, it is a bad thing for the political machines that don't want more citizens to be informed and voting.
Ultimately, it would good that more citizens some day start questioning the facts and motivations by government.
posted by jr at 11:03 A.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
If Carty gets recalled, who does he think is going to replace him? Its not like we've had a bevy of fabulous candidates in the recent past. I'm guessing the likely alternatives at the present moment wouldn't be that much better. (Unfortunately!)
posted by mom2 at 11:03 A.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
"If Carty commits a serious crime, Recall him."
Interesting. What serious crime did Gray Davis commit?
"[Davis] was elected to a second term in 2002, but on October 7, 2003, he became the second governor to be recalled in American history.
"On April 14, 2003, the California Field Poll reported that Davis had a record-low job approval rating of just 24%, the lowest ever recorded in the 55 years of the poll. Voters cited disapproval of the state's record $34.6 billion budget shortfall, growing unemployment, and dubious campaign contributor connections."
"In July 2003, his unpopularity became so great that a campaign to gather a sufficient number of citizen signatures for a recall election of Davis was successful."
Davis was unpopular. That was the reason for the recall. And it happened less than a year after Davis was re-elected.
I doubt Carty's job approval rating is at the level of Davis's, but who cares? Unpopular by many or a few, it doesn't matter. It's reason enough for a recall in someone's mind.
And if it worked for the governorship in California, well, it seems anything is possible at the mayoral level of a mid-sized city.
posted by jr at 11:22 A.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
"If Carty gets recalled, who does he think is going to replace him?"
I don't understand why this question is asked so often. Who cares what numskull replaces Carty? People focused on the replacement are missing the point in addition to jumping way ahead in what needs to happen first.
Regardless if the recall effort is a moderate or huge success or a miserable failure, it's about serving notice to the politicians that some citizens are paying attention, especially if the recall makes the ballot. I suspect Carty would win easily against a recall vote, but getting it on the ballot would still be a huge success, in my opinion.
Once in office, politicians still have to answer to the citizens. Or they should if citizens hold the politicians accountable. Getting the mayoral recall on the ballot should tell all local politicians that their positions are not always safe when they act in ways that some citizens disapprove of.
Again, the city charter provides this to the citizens. Work to change the charter if this process is so disturbing.
posted by jr at 11:46 A.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
It seems many have criticized Morrissey's recall websites. That's fine. The criticism actually helps Morrissey make improvements.
But from a Feb 16, 2007 Toledo Free Press story titled New Web master plans big things for city Web site.
"Katerina Bekyarska, new Web master for the City of Toledo, said her first priority is to revamp an outdated Web site that is in dire need of a major overhaul. Bekyarska must sell enough advertising on the Web site to cover her $54,000 annual compensation, which includes fringe benefits, Schwartz said. Her actual salary, he said, is $32,000 a year."
"Bekyarska won't be responsible for designing the Web site's layout and maintaining the software that will manage and place content."
The definition of "Web Master" must have changed. I wonder if Morrissey is getting 30-50K to "manage" his sites? More from that TFP story:
"The city is in the process of scheduling interviews with three different firms that submitted the most competitive bids to conduct the redesign, Bekyarska said. Those companies' bids were between $35,000 and $40,000, she said."
Has the city of Toledo's definition of "Web Master" and the cost of their site redesign faced the same relevant public scrutiny and criticism as Morrissey's Web designs? Have the local tech nerds analyzed the city's proposal and concluded, "Yes, it's understandable why the new city of Toledo Web redesign will cost so much."?
And by the way, most of the local media Web sites suck. Home pages are pigs to load. News stories may disappear after a week or so. Some lack search, permalinks, and archives. And some don't even have a Web presence or only display a snippet of their news stories. And they're suppose to be informing the public.
==========
Afer last night's Toledo public school board meeting, Jack "Steamplant" Ford is one step closer to being on the TPS board. From a "Jackass: The Movie" standpoint, this is awesome. But if it wasn't so morbidly funny, it would be sad.
In Jack Ford's May 24, 2007 Sojourner's Truth column, Jack wrote:
"And what will Mayor Carty Finkbeiner do now that The Blade has given him a green light to intervene in school board matters? Make that a directive rather than just a green light. The mayor has called for civic leaders, who are “big picture” guys, to come forward to take on the challenge of TPS. He then publicly recommended one Jack Ford."
"Huh?"
"Isn’t that the guy Hizzoner beat two years ago because he said he could not lead? I am beginning to surmise that Carty is doing all he does in anticipation of a new TV series – The Mayor."
From the May 25, 2007 Blade story:
"Former Toledo Mayor Jack Ford was among 10 people who applied by today’s 4 p.m. deadline for the Toledo Board of Education seat vacated by Deborah Barnett."
==========
Via the Glass City Jungle, a May 30, 2007 Blade story about last night's Toledo City Council meeting:
"Councilman Wilma Brown said downtown doesn't need "more children," and said that with each new charter school more money leaves Toledo. "The fezzes didn't faze me," she said."
"The permit for the former Zenobia Shrine drew a contingent of about 50 fez-wearing Shriners in support of a yes vote. The fraternal organization is moving to an undetermined suburban location, after 58 years downtown."
The fezzes? Downtown doesn't need more children?
==========
May 30, 2007 Blade story:
"With gas prices hovering around $3.40 a gallon, Lucas County officials are offering help at the pump - in the form of a $200 gasoline card - for low-income families. A person must be a Lucas County resident to be eligible for the gas cards."
"The applicant also needs to be working a minimum of 20 hours a week, their family must have a child under age 18, and the family income has be less than 200 percent of the federal poverty level. For a family of four, that is $3,442 a month. About half of Lucas County's residents are within that percentage of the poverty level, Ms. Ortiz-Flores said."
Looking out for the kids. Just make sure those kids don't live downtown.
==========
On Fred L's May 30, 2007 radio show, I thought I heard Fred say that City Council discussed Toledo's Wi-Fi plan. Is that true? I cannot find the story about that anywhere.
Fred said something about Ludeman forwarding a photo to the city's IT person, and this photo showed some Wi-Fi entity in Australia. Where in the hell is this info on the WSPD site? Again, some media sites suck.
Anyway, Fred "Googled" the entity in the photo, and it turns out the org or whatever has nothing to do with wireless Internet. Way to go Rob.
==========
In my opinion, attempting a mayoral recall is one small step in the long-term quest to rectify a terrible political situation that a passive citizenry has allowed to fester for far too long.
posted by jr at 03:33 P.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
jr, I agree with you 100% that people in this city and this county need to pay more attention to what is happening; that by working towards being a more informed electorate we can end some of the concerns many of us have.
That said, I don't agree that the recall effort is the way to do it because the way it's being done it actually contributes to the miseducation of voters by implying that City Council has no responsibility in the majority of the issues that the recall website has listed as a reason for the recall.
Now, does Tom and his family/friends have the right to do a recall movement? Of course, and perhaps it will shake things up, but for it to have a real effect beyond giving us something more to talk about besides TPS? It appears this will be like all of the other recall efforts against Carty and Jack where all that happens is people talk about it, then they go back to whatever they were doing when it's over without ever realizing the number one reason why Toledo is the way it is - is not because of Carty...It's US! Those who vote or don't bother to vote. Until we have no voters in Lucas County that actually believe a candidate is a deceased relative and that actually pay attention to who they are really voting for? You can organize a recall movement every 90 days but nothing will change.
posted by psyche777 at 04:09 P.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
The title of this entry has me confused; you're not implying the "Noes" are involved are you? That name just keeps showing up.
posted by soboredbytoledo at 05:05 P.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
I'll be 40 soon and I'm still amazed by the depth of disrespect commonly expressed for people in their 20s, and especially about the huge disdain heaped upon anyone who dares to act politically at that age. People can vote (hence, judge political matters) starting at 18, and their citizenship allows them to hold office starting at that time. They're not "kids", folks. Morrissey is merely being braver than we are, and that confirms he's a man. We have to admit that. We MUST admit that.
I can hardly do justice to Jr's comments, particularly:
«What's foreign to many Toledoans is the fact that citizens are allowed to be involved politically outside of that one day every November.»
THAT is what the complaints are largely about. I heard much of the same sheaf of complaints when Californians rightfully recalled Gray "What Deficit?" Davis. As I said then, and will repeat: It sure is funny hearing Democrats complain about DEMOCRACY. That their beloved (and nearly criminal) Dem Governor was facing removal from office was uppermost in their minds ... NOT that there were great reasons to recall Davis. Davis cared not a whit for the state's huge deficits, and certainly did NOTHING to stop Enron from raping the state's electric consumers. He didn't serve the public, and in fact harmed it; hence, he had to be removed.
There are similarly great reasons to recall Carty. In my opinion, this "gets results" mayor did his damnedest to kill the Westgate redevelopment. THAT ALONE disqualifies him for holding office in such a capacity to affect any private investors who want to re/develop property.
mom2 said: «If Carty gets recalled, who does he think is going to replace him?»
Carty has done so much damage that I'm very willing to simply remove him from office without consideration. According to Mr Morrissey, if Carty is simply removed, Ludeman as council president then becomes the mayor. That's fine by me, but having NO MAYOR at all would be equally acceptable to me. The city council can run the city just fine, considering how recent mayors have just been fuckups, and the council fucks up regularly itself. Why tolerate more incompetents?
Again, it's difficult to follow-up on what Jr has already said, but here goes my attempt:
"If you stand to popular election, then you remain in office on popular sentiment."
Gray Davis learned THAT lesson to his peril. It's time for Carty to learn it, too.
posted by GuestZero at 05:13 P.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
Sobored, here's about the expression "oh noes".
posted by GuestZero at 05:18 P.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
thanks for clarifying; I feel so "out of it."
posted by soboredbytoledo at 05:21 P.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
Gray Davis's replacement, let the energy companies off the hook, too, and then proceeded to get low approval ratings to. You know those actresses. But Arnie did steroids to achieve fame.
Perhaps we can get Scientology Holmes to take over as mayor. She can probably pay for campaign out of pocket and not accept a salary in return for a few weeks of a year to make a ho-hum hollywood yawner.
She's principled, I think. Scientology has principles, doesn't it?...
I think Carty has calmed down a bit unlike he's portrayed here.
posted by charlatan at 06:02 P.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
That said, I don't agree that the recall effort is the way to do it because the way it's being done it actually contributes to the miseducation of voters by implying that City Council has no responsibility in the majority of the issues that the recall website has listed as a reason for the recall. "When you become the face and driving force behind a PUBLIC CAMPAIGN to OUST THE MAYOR, then you have to accept that you're putting yourself right there in the spotlight alongside the politician you're trying to defeat."
Is this a cheap rationalization for attacking a community activist? I think so. If you don't like what they are doing, say so - don't participate or if you feel strongly enough start your own initiative.
In Toledo it is a passtime for many people to try to discredit people who aren't willing to go along to get along. We have a well known cast of villians in political positions. They change seats, they even change parties - but the outcome remains the same. Toledo needs change if we are to survive.
Why keep trying to humiliate and shame the people who try to bring change? Makes no sense. Unless maybe those folks are part of the problem.
posted by katie82640 at 07:16 P.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
Yikes, the first half of that post was missing.
It was supposed to say "That said, I don't agree that the recall effort is the way to do it because the way it's being done it actually contributes to the miseducation of voters by implying that City Council has no responsibility in the majority of the issues that the recall website has listed as a reason for the recall. " Psyche777
That I agree with this. Although I don't agree that the Mayor is any less accountable for his actions b/c there are problems w/city council. Nor is city council off the hook for their behavior b/c the Mayor has some serious issues. In this case, you have to start somewhere and obviously this initiative is to address shortcomings in the Mayors' performance.
And thennnnnnn the first paragraph above is a link from swampbubbles.
"When you become the face and driving force behind a PUBLIC CAMPAIGN to OUST THE MAYOR, then you have to accept that you're putting yourself right there in the spotlight alongside the politician you're trying to defeat."
I have no idea how it became all chopped up. User error :-)
posted by katie82640 at 07:20 P.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
"Until we have no voters in Lucas County that actually believe a candidate is a deceased relative ..."
That would be Phil Copeland's 2005 election campaign where a good percentage of his supporters thought they were voting for his dead uncle.
Thus far in 2007, the most sensible person on Toledo City Council is Ellen Grachek who naturally is not seeking re-election this fall.
Honorable mention in the Most Sensible category could possibly go to Joe McNamara and Frank Szollosi.
And that's it. The other nine are in the inept category, and they should be scorned.
psyche777 said:
"I don't agree that the recall effort is the way to do it because the way it's being done it actually contributes to the miseducation of voters by implying that City Council has no responsibility in the majority of the issues that the recall website has listed as a reason for the recall."
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
I look at this like a bicycle wheel. The axle is the recall Carty effort. Branching out from the axle are the spokes of other areas with elected officials, including city council, county officials, public school officials, and so on.
Even former Toledoans living in another community with one eye on Toledo news could get interested enough to pay attention to what's happening in their local community or their county. It's a stretch, but do you have another bombshell idea to jump start the citizenry?
It's Carty. He's probably the only public official in Lake Erie West that can be referred to by just a first name, and people know who you are talking about. It's his third term as mayor. His administration's idea of moving deaf people to the airport is a question on Trivial Pursuit. Carty is high profile.
I look at the recall Carty effort as part symbolic. The long-term goal is the entire local political system and not one person. It will take a lot of time and a lot of small steps to energize the local citizenry. The recall Carty attempt is one small step, in my opinion.
Back to the spokes in the wheel, branching out from the recall Carty effort. A direct or indirect result of the recall Carty effort could be a few more people discovering the local blogosphere and activist groups like Dave Schulz's Citizens Organized to Bring Reform and Accountability.
Little things here and there could add up over time. I wonder, have more new people started posting to local blogs, since the recall campaign was announced? If so, then the recall effort is already having a positive impact, regardless of the viewpoints of these new posters.
posted by jr at 08:30 P.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
We will have to agree to disagree jr, misinformation and miseducation to me is part of the main problem and considering that even the one of the supporters of this group the day it was announced demonstrated they didn't have a grasp at the basics of who was responsible for building the arena did not inspire hope in me that this would end up being an informative process. I don't think promoting "Carty Sucks" t-shirts or comparing the Mayor to cancer or saying everything he touches turns to excrement is the way to change. Nor is down right false information like claiming the only time the mounted police force is out is during the Mudhens game helpful. To me, if someone can't run a citizen's campaign on the truth or at least as close to it as possible than they are no better than the politicians.
I support citizen activism, I support citizen journalism but not just because it's someone who's not a politician, they get no free skate from me nor should they. They have to demonstrate to me anyway that they are attempting to be credible and don't have some type of an hidden agenda.
I don't think you branch out from negativity and what is hard to ignore as nothing more than a purposeful attempt to do the same thing I take issue with anyone doing - being less than honest - and I think that the chances that it will hurt Dave's petition is greater than it will help it. Rather than people concentrating on the petition drive to change the charter the focus will be on the recall the Mayor issue.
I hope I'm wrong, I've spent quite a bit of time blogging for the main reason of getting information out there so whether people agree or disagree with me at least they have more information than they had before. I don't know if you remember or not but I really had a hard time with the Learn and Earn group because of their dishonesty, and I don't feel encouraged by how this recall group has started out. Tom wouldn't even be upfront about questions of when the domain was registered. He stated he had only done it two weeks ago until he was shown a screenshot from who is that showed it was done November 3, 2006.
Getting people to vote from an educated position is to me a better goal and one I'll continue to work towards. That has a larger positive result for all of us than a recall effort. Though I understand with Carty bashing being one of Toledo's favorite past times that a recall effort will generate lots of attention during the next 90 days. We did the same thing with Jack bashing...but that's another problem for another day except for the bottom line of who is responsible for who is currently Mayor and all of our elected officials. Us...
posted by psyche777 at 09:29 P.M. EST on Wed May 30, 2007 #
The first and I believe only Toledo Talk thread about recalling Ford was posted on October 6, 2003, and it generated a whopping six comments. I don't think that qualifies as a lot of discussion about recalling Ford. Three of those comments were by me, and two of those were about other recall efforts.
I said back then :
"The recall Ford campaign is a novelty. I believe it will have the momentum of a soggy pile of grass clippings."
The recall Ford site had its own message board, so naturally it had discussion about its intent. I think.
I wasn't in Toledo during the first recall Carty effort back in the 90's, so that means nothing to me.
psyche777 said : "I support citizen activism, I support citizen journalism but not just because it's someone who's not a politician, they get no free skate from me nor should they. They have to demonstrate to me anyway that they are attempting to be credible and don't have some type of an hidden agenda."
Fair enough. Sounds good.
"... and I think that the chances that it will hurt Dave's petition is greater than it will help it."
So the current recall Carty campaign has a shaky foundation. In all the recent discussions about recalling Carty, has anyone promoted COBRA as a viable alternative?
At Swamp Bubbles, I see three threads that total about 200 comments related to the recall Carty effort. Only four comments mention COBRA, but none do so as an alternative to the recall Carty campaign, and none of the comments provide a link to Dave's Web site.
At Glass City Jungle, I see two postings related to recall Carty that contain a total of 33 comments, and none mention COBRA as an alternative.
I don't see how Dave's petition could be hurt by the recall Carty discussion, since COBRA has barely been mentioned. Have I posted the only comment in the recall Carty discussion that contains a link to the COBRA site?
Looks like the local blogosphere missed a golden opportunity to promote another plan. I can only surmise that COBRA is a bigger fantasy than recalling Carty, which means the best solution for a Toledoan is still a For Sale sign and a moving van.
Once again, the Web link along with some info about supposedly another option that no one is talking about:
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http://www.toledocobra.org/
Our group seeks to bring reform and accountability to the City of Toledo government by seeking a referendum on various amendments to the City Charter to help bring about these changes. We believe that a community based discussion needs to occur to address weaknesses in the city charter. We hope to spur legislative action as a result of this discussion. If City Council will not act, the COBRA committee will launch a petition drive to enact these changes. These changes will:
* Provide better, more cost effective, direct representation of the citizens of Toledo through the reorganization of Toledo City Council.
* Explore a change back to the city manager form of government.
* Assure that the will of the voters will be maintained by changing the appointment method for a vacancy.
* Make citizen referendum easier by reducing the number of signatures required to do so.
C.O.B.R.A also advocates the following changes that will create transparency, openness and encourage more citizen involvement.
* More nightly council meetings and hearings so residents can have greater access to meetings - Most Toledo City Council meetings occur in the afternoon while most people are working.
* Internet broadcasting and archiving of all regular and committee meetings - Many similarly sized cities have their own cable access channel. Toledo should live web stream these and archive them on the city's website for viewing at the public's convenience.
* Public comment at council meetings - Many governmental bodies allow public comment at their regular business meetings, why not Toledo?
* Online posting of state ethics filings - Currently, these are filed with the State of Ohio and never seen again by the public.
* Online searchable campaign finance database - Recently, the Lucas County Commissioners posted .pdf files of current campaign finance reports. A great first step towards transparency but a more user friendly database such as the Ohio Secretary of State is needed.
* Re-broadcasting of television broadcasts of meetings - Same problem exists with lack of nightly council meetings.
Read the history of Toledo's term limits controversy.
-------------
If the recall Carty campaign is suspicious, then in my opinion, the local blogosphere should have politely hijacked recall Carty threads by discussing and promoting COBRA as a real alternative to local political change.
More from COBRA:
Time to blow the whistle on city mismanagement
We want to hear from city employees who want to make suggestions on how to streamline city government, report financial mismanagement and save money for the taxpayers of Toledo. Tipsters will remain anonymous and any material used will be conveyed in a way that will maintain the anonymity of the tipster. We are very interested in hearing about how the city management structure and policies have changed since the strong mayor system came into place in 1993. Past employees and any other citizen with ideas or intimate knowledge of city operations are encouraged to submit tips and ideas.
posted by jr at 12:41 A.M. EST on Thu May 31, 2007 #
Jr, COBRA aside, I'm sure you suspect that Toledo really can't have whistle blowers since city workers are largely in collusion with what's so wrong with the expense and ineffectiveness of city government. A big problem with the city workforce is that it's too big, does too little, and is too expensive. Which city worker is going to blow the whistle on his own paycheck? None of them will.
After having a sufficiency of conversations with several city employees, it's clear to me that there is a pervasive feeling that anyone who points a finger at upper management will get booted out and will have to sink-or-swim with the other sad sacks we laughingly call Toledo citizens. I mean, who do we really think is going to risk giving up a city job paying 50% and more over private positions?
Anyhoo, COBRA sounds like a great idea. Like a recall effort, it faces a huge force of resistance. Toledoans emplaced a "strong mayor" system since it suited their egos about regional prosperity and got them out of having to pay attention to government. Toledoans regularly vote for measures that take away their right to vote on certain city issues. Toledoans really don't care about government anymore. They are either working themselves to a well-liquored-up death, or they're planning on moving out of this hellhole anyway. Toledo is working the Detroit Plan™ thereby. Those who remain after the extensive capital flight are too poor or badly educated to fight back against the scumbags who fill government positions (often by default).
The onus is still upon us to take back city government from the elitist, looting forces which have seized it. But we have to fight fellow Toledoans to get it done. Luckily, the ones opposing us will have to rely on the same complacency under which crooks so easily assumed government power. For those who intend to get stuff done on their own (even to the extent of breaking the law) ... well, Toledo's becoming more and more a GREAT place to exercise such will-to-power or whatever it's called. How about we call these folks "political libertines"? Their businesses will escape more and more taxes, will dump more and more poisons, will defraud more and more Toledoans, etc. On the flip side, they will be able to produce more cheaply by freely disregarding regulations. Lacking regulatory overhead, the Neo-Toledo crime families (heck, we might as well just state 'em honestly) might be a boon for certain consumers in the area and in the rest of America.
posted by GuestZero at 04:44 A.M. EST on Thu May 31, 2007 #
Ha - I made the link a little while ago. I agree that both the Mayor and City Council are responsible for the current state of affairs and sent an email to Dave S. about the Recall meeting at the Heatherdowns library tonight at 7.
I'm going to go - the email I rec'd said that they 'giving more specifics as to what we are doing.'
I want to hear it first hand so I'm going to go. If there isn't any merit to it - that's fine - but I want to know. I am not satisfied with the status quo in Toledo. And I hold our leaders responsible.
Maybe that's wrong - but that's what I believe.
posted by katie82640 at 08:49 A.M. EST on Thu May 31, 2007 #
People were already confusing COBRA with the recall movement because the incorrect impression was given that they could be related/cooperating, which already had to be corrected on Swamp Bubbles. When there is news from COBRA as to their goal to change the charter to return to a City Manager form of government that would be a separate item.
COBRA has nothing to do with the recall movement, it is a totally separate group and idea. It's logical and realistic to accept the fact that the recall Carty movement will generate more attention. It did in 1999 and it will now. Look at any of the threads that involve the Mayor, not just on Glass City but here and Swamp Bubbles, they are normally higher in comments. Now, can COBRA take advantage of this and say something like "don't worry about recalling just one Mayor, make a permanent change?" Of course they could but that would be up to them to decide if that is how they want to promote this.
posted by psyche777 at 08:52 A.M. EST on Thu May 31, 2007 #
A couple more examples of the local hurdles that may be impossible to overcome.
One
May 31, 2007 Blade op-ed that endorses Ford for the school board. It's an appointment. The citizens cannot vote on this. The politics surrounding TPS is mind boggling.
"Mr. Ford is by far the best qualified among those who have applied to fill the vacancy on the TPS board created by the resignation last week of Deborah Barnett. The remaining four board members should do themselves and the community a favor and appoint him to the post by the June 25 deadline. We urge the board to rise above petty differences and make him its unanimous choice."
Toledo's daily newspaper is promoting a political retread, not someone competent for a temporary job.
"What the board needs in the way of a new member is a person who is intelligent, level-headed, knows Toledo and the needs of its young people, is politically connected ..."
Being politically connected should be a disqualification.
"He even has support from his old nemesis, Carty Finkbeiner, who thwarted his bid for a second term as mayor in 2005."
Support from Carty is another disqualification. But the machine rolls on.
This WTOL story contains a link to the "resumes" of the Toledo Idol contestants, vying for the vacant TPS board seat. Maybe they should sing or dance or carve to prove they're qualified. Ford didn't submit a resume. He sent a teacher's application.
Seems to me a qualified person applying for such an important position would type his info and not handwrite it. Someone serious about being on the school board would take the extra time to type a nice resume, right?
Two
Check out the photo in this May 30, 2007 Toledo Journal story that's titled Graduation standards will stand, TPS says.
Part of the caption under the photo says:
"... among the parents who joined students in protesting outside TPS headquarters."
I bolded "parents" for emphasis. To enlarge the photo, I had to save the image to my hard drive and open with a different app.
One protesting student holds a sign that says:
"Take OGT's out and bring proficiecey back and allow us 2 walk with our class"
Another student holds a sign that says:
"Proficiencey Back OGT's Out"
My emphasis was added to what appears to me to be misspelled words, unless these are acceptable alternative spellings for the word "proficiency." At least the one student had the letter 'n'. Of all the words to misspell when staging a public protest about testing. And the parents participated. One photo is worth a thousand words. The students, the parents, and the school share the blame for this sad situation.
posted by jr at 09:55 A.M. EST on Thu May 31, 2007 #
Here's a little project. If you're a homeowner, stand in your front yard and note how many homes you can see that have For Sale signs. From our front yard in West Toledo, I can see eight. In the 5.5 years that I've lived here, I don't recall ever seeing that many. At least a couple have been for sale for well over a year. And obviously with a short walk around the neighborhood, I can see many more homes that are for sale.
All the talk and symbolic and concrete actions could be a waste of time. Toledo may have passed the point of no return long ago. No doubt, some will find Toledo good enough, especially if mediocrity is acceptable. But those with loftier goals and tastes may move to the burbs or leave the region.
Dec 7, 2003 Russ Lemmon column:
"While I find our provincialism to be a steady source of humor, in a Mayberry kind of way, it's also a big reason why the city has been mired in mediocrity for decades."
Aug 3, 2005 Michael Miller opinion:
"Toledo, which one business associate of mine describes as a “hot-bed of mediocrity,” never embraces change with anything resembling speed."
Bob Seyfang, local Architect and Planner, said at the Feb 2007 ReUrbanism meeting:
"A ton of mediocrity exists in Toledo."
Us, them?
"... they go back to whatever they were doing when it's over without ever realizing the number one reason why Toledo is the way it is - is not because of Carty...It's US!"
"... the bottom line of who is responsible for who is currently Mayor and all of our elected officials. Us..."
Not me. As a transplant to this region, I'm not included in that "us." I'll hide behind the transplant card. The people who have grown up in Toledo and are still living in Toledo, they are in that "us." And that "us" is probably the reason why so many homes are for sale on our street. I think it may be time for me to stop accepting mediocrity.
Some weeks back, Toledo City Council voted to continue to spend taxpayer money on planting perennial flowers that are only around for about half the year. Betty Shultz, a former Democrat and now Republican and a term-limit violator, said about her support for the flowers:
"Ms. Shultz said she opposed the urban beautification effort when it started several years ago, but now considers it critical to attracting new businesses and visitors to the city."
Appalling. Toledo's problems are deeply rooted, and they began many years ago.
If someone wrote "Holy Toledo" the musical that was based upon current events, outsiders would think it was a farce, but in reality, it would be reality. Outsiders would insist that no way could the story be true. Some of the things that have happened just in the past couple years are hard to imagine if you were trying to write humorous fiction.
posted by jr at 11:41 A.M. EST on Thu May 31, 2007 #
GZ, you're right. I should not have called the private citizen Thomas a kid, immature, or an idiot.
However since he has just announced he has entered the public arena on leading a cause that I am firmly against, I now stand by my opinions of public Thomas. He's now fair game.
Ultimately I believe recalls lower the responsibility of a voter and diminish the reason we have elections. Unless, the public official was found guilty of a crime or to be grossly incompetent, I don't believe in Voter Mulligans.
Long term, I belive recalls detract from allowing our elected leaders to make the tough, unpopular decisions as well as shy away future leaders from running for office. If proven successful, could be a powerful weapon to minority special interests to attack elected leaders who won a close election or to chew up an elected official's time to campaign for a spot they already won. Not fair.
In Carty's case, the blame can be equally shared with the majoirity Toledo Voters, the Toledo non-voters, City Council and TPS School Board.
I believe if Thomas was sincere about Toledo, he would focus his energy on "creating" positive support on issues that need to get done or work on campaigning for the next mayor to replace Carty. Instead he focuses his energy on destroying something without offering anything real in its place.
To that Public Thomas does more harm then good.
posted by brassmonkey at 02:49 P.M. EST on Thu May 31, 2007 #
jr, i like the picture of the kids. classy.
it seems like the current crop of leaders all came from the same school (perhaps from the police academy series)...
they seem to react to whatever comes along and that's leadership, that's initiative, that's visionary...
toledo has a long way to go to look like younstown or detroit...that's not good but it's a long ways away.
posted by charlatan at 05:20 P.M. EST on Thu May 31, 2007 #
Here's a little project. If you're a homeowner, stand in your front yard and note how many homes you can see that have For Sale signs. From our front yard in West Toledo, I can see eight. In the 5.5 years that I've lived here, I don't recall ever seeing that many. At least a couple have been for sale for well over a year. And obviously with a short walk around the neighborhood, I can see many more homes that are for sale.
That's not exactly specific to Toledo - you can go to dozens of communities throughout Michigan and Ohio, and see the exact same phenomenon.
I'm not saying that I disagree with everything else you're trying to say, but just trying to point out that the "for sale" signs on homes can't be blamed solely on local, Toledo-specific issues.
posted by mom2 at 05:41 P.M. EST on Thu May 31, 2007 #
"... you can go to dozens of communities throughout Michigan and Ohio, and see the exact same phenomenon."
Name one. You won't see it in the downtown area of Perrysburg. My wife and I were there Thursday evening for their farmer's market and some grub at Zingo's. We also drove around a several block radius of downtown P-burg, checking out homes for sale. We want to be close enough to walk to the stores, the restaurants, the library, my barber of many years, my favorite area coffee shop (My Daily Grind) etc. And you have to drive around a good bit to see a total of eight homes for sale. You won't see eight on two blocks.
posted by jr at 09:11 P.M. EST on Thu May 31, 2007 #
NBC TV EDITORIAL FORGOT "PATRONIZING" TO THE GROWING LIST OF IRRITATING, UNSTATESMANLIKE AND INEPT DESCRIPTIONS OF LEADERSHIP THIS "ELECTED" MAYOR HAS ACCUMULATED. HIS VERY RESPONSE, AS SHOWN ON YOUR NEWS SEGMENT, " I WISH THE YOUNG MAN WELL. HE DOESN'T KNOW THE COMPEXITIES OF RUNNING A GOVERNMENT," IS SUCH AN EXAMPLE.
ONCE AGAIN, HE'S SHOWN THAT "POWER" SUPERSEDES "INTELLIGIENCE" IN HIS "RULE."
IF THE LIST OF "RECALL" INCLUDED HIS COMPLETE CONTROL OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, THERE WOULD BE NO CONTEST. IRONICALLY, WITH FAILURES OF ERIE STREET MARKET, SOUTHWYCK, DOWNTOWN RETAIL DEVELOPMENT AND A HOST OF OTHERS,PLUS IDEAS LIKE EATING LUNCH ON A BRIDGE, (DRAW BRIDGE NO LESS) ANYBODY ELESE WOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED!
posted by HappyBadger at 11:27 P.M. EST on Thu May 31, 2007 #
BM, I can take 99% of your postings in good grace. We will simply have to disagree on what "grossly incompetent" means. You obviously don't think Carty fits that, yet from postings by myself and others, there are people who DO think it fits.
P.S. HappyBadger, it's good to see you again! I remember that you had a personal encounter with Carty that you found iconic about the man, which supports your opinion. If only every Toledoan had a short video clip of that encounter, more Toledoans would suddenly see why a recall makes sense. True, replacing a political animal with another political animal isn't much of a change. However, the reward for incompetence and viciousness should be that you're fired (again, a concept that unionized Toledoans don't often encounter). A recall effort attempts not to undermine the democratic process, but to strengthen it by bringing the concepts of MERIT and ACCOUNTABILITY back into the holding of political offices. We have to stop tolerating officials who see their 4-yr stints as permissions for vacations, theft, cronyism, and organizational waste.
posted by GuestZero at 03:16 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 01, 2007 #
For what it's worth.
http://swampbubbles.com/some_more_thoughts_on_the_recall_effort
posted by zoocheetah at 10:15 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 01, 2007 #
Happy Badger:
posted by thenick at 10:53 A.M. EST on Fri Jun 01, 2007 #
"The first thing I’d like to know is how much a recall election will cost the city."
Have you ever been concerned with the costs to city taxpayers due stupid decisions made by the politicians? As one "small" example, have you heard of the Erie Street Market?
"Do you have any feelings on how a recall election based on Mr. Morrissey's points will play for a national and/or international audience? Do you belive that this is something that is good for Toledo's image?"
Why must we be concerned about how Toledo is perceived by the rest of the world when we question or challenge our city government? Your thoughts are disturbingly similar to the May 30, 2007 WTOL editorial:
"The current recall effort has not made its case, and will only draw more negative national publicity to our already beleaguered city."
Good grief, the fact that Carty was elected for a third term is a bad joke that no recall effort could top.
The local media and the local public officials have pounded into the citizens' minds the perception that Toledoans have a negative attitude. And this phantom attitude is supposedly harmful to the city. The "Don't be negative" ploy is a shield used by government to protect itself from an informed and concerned citizenry.
And I have the feeling that the local media has harped on this "negative" aspect so much that they are concerned about the types of news stories they produce. Is this "negative" notion affecting the investigative work by our local media? Is the local media dredging up so-called positive stories and ignoring real local issues because they fear being labeled "negative" by government?
Government with help from its sympathizers deflects blame away from itself by attacking opposing voices and labeling the opposition "negative." And what is "negative" anyway? Is questioning stupid decisions made by government and the public school system considered negative? No.
But I would say calling Toledo a boring place and claiming there's nothing to do is an example of being negative or at least being lazy. Statements like this are made by citizens so they can justify why they watch eight hours of TV a day.
Former Toledo City Councilman Bob McCloskey is in prison. The Blade reported on McCloskey's shaky dealings long before McCloskey was indicted. Was the Blade being negative? If you asked Bob, he would say yes. In fact, he did. Should the Blade have been concerned about Toledo's national image and chose not to publish the McCloskey stories?
And what about the Blade's unmasking of Tom Noe? Tom may have been a Maumee resident but he had ties to Toledo politics too. Was the Blade being negative towards Toledo by its investigation of Noe?
Should failing government-led development projects and worthless and wasteful symbolic government ideas be ignored by the citizens and the media? Should the bunglings by the Toledo Public School system not be reported on in order to protect Toledo's image?
Basing concerns on how you will be perceived by others is a poor way to go through life. It's also cowardly.
posted by jr at 12:13 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 01, 2007 #
My opening sentences in the Dec 16, 2004 Toledo Talk posting titled Carty Finkbeiner lovefest:
"This week on the Finkbeiner Radio Network formerly known as WSPD, Carty discussed how to take Toledo to the promise land. And it seems a lot of people bought into Carty's snake oil sales pitch. It's amazing how easily some people can be duped. Time doesn't heal wounds as much as it makes people stupid because they forget. I think Carty's approval rating at the end of his regime was less than 50%."
Yeah, what was Carty's approval rating back in 2000 or 2001?
Wait a minute, what about Carty's approval rating this spring? I either missed or forgot about this Mar 12, 2007 Blade story tiled: Majority in survey give Finkbeiner poor rating.
"More than 54 percent of likely voters in Toledo hold an unfavorable opinion of Mr. Finkbeiner, according to a citywide Blade/Zogby International poll. Fewer than one in four say they would re-elect Mr. Finkbeiner in 2009."
"After two terms as mayor and a four-year hiatus, Mr. Finkbeiner unseated fellow Democrat Jack Ford in 2005 with about 62 percent of the vote. Going into that election Mr. Finkbeiner had a 68 percent approval rating. It fell to 53 percent before the November, 2006, election. It currently stands at 40.6 percent, about 10 points lower than Mr. Ford’s rating before he lost his re-election bid to Mr. Finkbeiner."
"Almost 69 percent of respondents in the poll say Mr. Finkbeiner should be replaced in the 2009 election, although the poll indicates that a favored successor has yet to emerge."
Grachek
Some of the Carty highlights pointed out in that Dec 2004 Toledo Talk posting:
* Jan 4, 2003 Blade story:
"Carty Finkbeiner once said that Toledo’s national reputation is based largely on the Mud Hens, Tony Packo’s, and Jamie Farr on M*A*S*H running around in a dress." We can thank Carty for adding a new distinction: He has gotten us in Trivial Pursuit."
"In the 20th anniversary edition of the popular board game, players are asked: "Which Ohio city was represented by Mayor Carty Finkbeiner, who once suggested deaf residents move out to the airport?" "
"Mr. Finkbeiner said the idea was posited by a neighbor, a doctor, who left it with a list of other suggestions in the mayor’s mailbox. He gave the letter to aides, and suddenly "found this idea was being attributed to me. It was never reported accurately, and the people who know the truth continue to perpetuate this as my idea." "
Why in the hell would Carty give the idea to aides? Ultimately, Carty was responsible for the idea making it to the public. It was his administration. He obviously has a problem with accepting responsibility.
More from that Jan 2003 Blade story:
"The deaf issue has been fodder before: It earned a mention in Ross and Kathryn Petras’s book The 176 Stupidest Things Ever Done. The collection was published by Doubleday in 1996 and takes aim at some of the world’s goofiest human tricks."
So was the Blade being negative for reporting Carty's blunder? Who hurt Toledo's image here, the Blade and their story or Carty's carelessness?
* Carty's Port Authority appointment: "Commissioner Maggie Thurber complained of 'external pressures exerted on this board' to appoint [Carty]." The political machines.
* "A counter employee at a ProCare service station told police that Carty Finkbeiner yelled and used profane language when he complained on Saturday about a delay to get an oil change for his vehicle."
* "The city hall staff member who was involved in an altercation Tuesday with Mayor Carty Finkbeiner said yesterday that she won't take any action against the mayor. The incident took place about 5 p.m. Tuesday. Ms. Kowalski has declined to give specifics but has said the mayor used repeated profanity. She said she reported the incident to Marsha Serio, the city's director of human resources."
* "Mr. Skiadas, owner of Pepe's Mexican Restaurant & Cantina on West Sylvania Avenue, was preparing to open the restaurant in the city-owned [Erie Street] market when Mr. Finkbeiner confronted him about construction delays that caused the restaurant to miss a July 4th weekend opening. Mr. Skiadas claimed the former mayor was verbally and physically abusive, screamed profanity, and threatened to send city inspectors to find violations at the West Sylvania restaurant."
If we're concerned about image, how come Ford or Carty never pressured Myron Stewart to do something about his building near the Hens stadium? From the Lucas County Web site:
"Myron Stewart purchased buildings located at 519 and 523 Monroe Street for $15,000. Commissioners had originally purchased the two properties during the overall land acquisition process for Fifth Third Field. Mr. Stewart intends to open a restaurant on the first floor, and relocate The Toledo Journal newspaper offices to the upper floors. Construction is expected to begin soon."
What year was that? The Lucas County Web site doesn't have a date stamp on the story.
A couple more items from that Dec 2004 posting:
* "Mr. Finkbeiner was one of the leaders of the movement that removed party Chairman Paula Ross and replaced her with Sandy Isenberg, a former county commissioner. "It's nice to have your friends in the Democratic Party offices but that is not a factor in whether or not I will be a candidate for mayor or any other office," [said Carty]" The political machines.
* "The city employee, Lee Youster, 46, of 3540 Beverly Drive, was charged with theft in office. Mr. Youster, who supervises pool managers, is suspended pending an administrative hearing today, Police Chief Mike Navarre said. Mr. Youster, who was hired in February, 1999, during then-Mayor Carty Finkbeiner's administration, declined comment yesterday. He is Mr. Finkbeiner's brother-in-law."
* "The city of Toledo's condemnation of 83 homes to make room for the construction of the DaimlerChrysler Jeep plant in 1999 has made a national list of "10 top abuses of eminent domain" by the Institute for Justice. Former Mayor Carty Finkbeiner could not be reached for comment. Mr. Finkbeiner has defended the incentives as necessary to retain 4,900 jobs."
What about the concern for Toledo's national image there? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, so the bad image was justified in this case, right?
posted by jr at 01:11 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 01, 2007 #
The addresses you ask about jr -
from AERIS:
BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS OF 523 MONROE ST
MS WINDFALL LTD AN OHIO LI 523 MONROE ST
Two listings for the same address? Weird. So I looked up the board of commissioners listing and found that it was sold to them for $0.00 on 08/15/2000 and the prior owner was PORT LAWRENCE TITLE AND TRUST COMPANY, TRUSTEE
The second (Windfall) listing says it was sold to them for $0.00 on 06/24/2002 and the prior owner was the BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS OF LUCAS COUNTY OHIO
____________________________________________
The 519 property results are essentially the same.
There are also back taxes owed on these properties.
posted by katie82640 at 03:59 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 01, 2007 #
I realize I should know this - but what exactly did Jack Ford do for a living prior to council or mayor of Toledo?
posted by starling02 at 05:24 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 01, 2007 #
The Myron Stewart Property is actually two lots. When the BCC was getting ready to purchase property for the stadium, they privately placed the options (in accordance with law) until everything was announced. Some of the properties show various ownership as a result of this.
In 2003, the commissioners started the process to try and get the building either improved or turned back over the county. Very long, tedious process only to find that the original contract had no penalties for not meeting the terms requiring 'development.' Through various pressures, we were able to get them to improve the facade and address the issue with garbage/rats in the back.
I believe the sale price was $15,000 for the property as a whole.
Starling - prior to being Mayor, Ford was a State Rep and Minority Leader for the Dems. He was also president of City Council when he was on council. He was the director of SASI - may have been involved in forming this organization (substance abuse services, inc). He also taught at UT for a number of years.
posted by MaggieThurber at 06:52 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 01, 2007 #
Name one. You won't see it in the downtown area of Perrysburg. My wife and I were there Thursday evening for their farmer's market and some grub at Zingo's. We also drove around a several block radius of downtown P-burg, checking out homes for sale. We want to be close enough to walk to the stores, the restaurants, the library, my barber of many years, my favorite area coffee shop (My Daily Grind) etc. And you have to drive around a good bit to see a total of eight homes for sale. You won't see eight on two blocks.
I can name 2 for you w/a link to back it up. As I said in my original post, there are dozens of communities in Michigan and Ohio which are the same way. Its not Toledo specific.
The 2 examples - Bloomfield Township and Troy:
In our subdivision of 1950s ranches in Bloomfield Township, every fifth house had a for sale sign on the front lawn.
The subdivision across nearby Wattles Road into Troy was even worse. One in four houses are up for sale.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070524/OPINION03/705240338/1279/OPINION0306
posted by mom2 at 07:52 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 01, 2007 #
Adding comment -
As I mentioned above, I'm not defending all the craziness that goes on in Toledo or arguing with any other comment you've made. Just pointing out that the high volumes of homes for sale is not unique to Toledo, and its happening throughout Michigan and Ohio.
posted by mom2 at 07:55 P.M. EST on Fri Jun 01, 2007 #
If anyone is interested in the scam that Myron Stewart pulled on the County (with the collusion of the Democrats on the LC Commission), just obtain a copy of the City Paper for Dec13-19 2006. They have a rather complete exposé of the affair on page 7 by Jason Webber. It's undeniable that the affair was a scam since after paying $500K for the property the LCC allowed Stewart to buy it for only $15K. Stewart then put the property on the market for $375K. 2400%? That's a nice capital gain, if you can get it, eh? Note further that Stewart conned (again, with collusion) the City of Toledo (under Jack Ford) for another $32.5K as a "facade grant". Of course, just about anyone claiming to be a property developer can probably con Toledo and LC out of thousands of dollars. I mean, why not? It's not like the city and county officials are spending their own money, and it often shows.
If property taxes are owed on the property, then that's just more sauce for the goose. Does anyone remember that the owner of the Arbuckle Building owed rather large sums on it ... and then it burned quickly, which was rather strange for a building with no power in it? *cough*ARSON*cough* Has the previous owner of that building paid off his owned taxes? I'd bet NO. The city is very reluctant to collect taxes owned on properties. My theory is that they all golf together, anyway, so golfing buddies just don't bother each over over piddling details like years of tax liability. I'm fairly sure that city officials are also somewhat afraid of property developers, who can go home and take their toys with them anytime they want.
If Carty had not made tax abatements a standard act of economic governance in Toledo, we really wouldn't be in this pickle. Abatements obviously did little to nothing to stop the severe flight of capital from Toledo. That's just another reason to get Carty out on his arse as he well deserves. His 'passion' for Toledo is doing nothing but sticking the city with ever-larger bills that remaining residents must pay.
posted by GuestZero at 01:17 A.M. EST on Sat Jun 02, 2007 #
The city is very reluctant to collect taxes owned on properties. My theory is that they all golf together, anyway, so golfing buddies just don't bother each over over piddling details like years of tax liability
Ah, so that explains all the bad golf shirts/sweater vests the mayor's always wearing!
posted by McCaskey at 11:31 A.M. EST on Sat Jun 02, 2007 #
I don't think a politician should have to commit a crime to be recalled. What crime did Gray Davis commit? He was just an incompetent boob, as Finkbeiner is, and that is reason enough to recall someone. Why let a politician screw up an already bad situation even more? It's good to take action.
posted by paddington at 01:51 P.M. EST on Sat Jun 02, 2007 #
I don't think a politician should have to commit a crime to be recalled. What crime did Gray Davis commit? He was just an incompetent boob, as Finkbeiner is, and that is reason enough to recall someone. Why let a politician screw up an already bad situation even more? It's good to take action.
I'd be in complete agreement if we take this course of thinking to the (current) Presidential level, LOL
posted by McCaskey at 04:29 P.M. EST on Sat Jun 02, 2007 #
Maggie, why would AERIS be posting the sale price on both of those lots as 0.00? Is it possible he got them for nothing?
I don't know - so I'm asking. But for a recording to exist as a zero - it bears asking.
posted by katie82640 at 08:29 P.M. EST on Sat Jun 02, 2007 #
and it's odd that there is such a criticism of the recall Carty effort - if this is the way folks think.
I walked the Point Place parade today and I watched the Mayor being announced. No one clapped and many swore.
Every other party that was announced received applause. But not Carty.
posted by katie82640 at 08:31 P.M. EST on Sat Jun 02, 2007 #
Katie - don't know about Aeris - just know the sale price was around the $15,000...
posted by MaggieThurber at 04:38 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 03, 2007 #
"... there are dozens of communities in Michigan and Ohio which are the same way."
"I can name 2 ..."
You're not planning to take the OGTs are you? How does two equate to dozens? What about Maumee, Sylvania, Whitehouse, Woodville, Rossford, Waterville, etc.?
posted by jr at 07:16 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 03, 2007 #
Someone update Mr. Pounds at the Free Press. Pounds said:
"But nothing the mayor has done, singularly or cumulatively, rises to the level of a recall. There is no crime in question. Just 16 months ago, a solid majority of voters supported Finkbeiner, and I believe many of those folks still do."
McCloskey should still be in office then because the voters never recalled him even though he committed a crime. In fact, McCloskey was re-elected even though the stories about his shenanigans were out there before the election.
I'm thinking that if a politician commits a crime, a recall won't be needed. Ask the Bulldog.
And as pointed out above about former California governor Gray Davis:
"[Davis] was elected to a second term in 2002, but on October 7, 2003, he became the second governor to be recalled in American history."
"On April 14, 2003, the California Field Poll reported that Davis had a record-low job approval rating of just 24%, the lowest ever recorded in the 55 years of the poll. Voters cited disapproval of the state's record $34.6 billion budget shortfall, growing unemployment, and dubious campaign contributor connections."
"In July 2003, his unpopularity became so great that a campaign to gather a sufficient number of citizen signatures for a recall election of Davis was successful."
Do the math, Pounds. Only eight months after being re-elected to a second term, the recall Davis campaign had enough signatures for a special election. It is now 16 months after Carty was re-elected to a third term.
I wonder if Pounds knows what crime Davis committed?
"... a solid majority of voters supported Finkbeiner, and I believe many of those folks still do."
Again, as pointed out above, the Mar 12, 2007 Toledo Blade story titled: Majority in survey give Finkbeiner poor rating.
"More than 54 percent of likely voters in Toledo hold an unfavorable opinion of Mr. Finkbeiner."
"Fewer than one in four say they would re-elect Mr. Finkbeiner in 2009."
"Almost 69 percent of respondents in the poll say Mr. Finkbeiner should be replaced in the 2009 election."
posted by jr at 10:53 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 03, 2007 #
It could be that Mr Pounds wants to believe that Czarty has support, as much as Czarty himself wants to believe that he's a good mayor. This being Toledo, the Land of Make-Believe, I'm thinking all this hopeful wondering is largely a crock of shit. I hear a lot of heel-clicking as people fervently wish Toledo had a prosperous economy, but after all the clickin' people have to go back home and deal with their ever-larger stacks of bills. That's the great thing about the future; while you're living in a delusion, the future will come and smack you in the face anyhow.
posted by GuestZero at 11:49 P.M. EST on Sun Jun 03, 2007 #
No such thing as an independent media, at least around here.
What businesses have advertisement packets included with the Toledo Free Press? Do those businesses have unions? If so, did those unions support Carty in 2005? Just a thought.
posted by jr at 10:34 A.M. EST on Mon Jun 04, 2007 #
jr, I don't know what section of West Toledo you live in, but I lived on Algonquin Parkway from '87 to '95. I can recall several spans of time in that eight-year period where I could look up and down the street and see 6 or 7 for-sale signs.
Yes, a couple of these households contained folks who moved, or wanted to move, because there were better job opportunities elsewhere. But for the most part, these were couples that bought homes there as newly-weds, eventually had children, and outgrew the house. They had equity built up and used it to buy bigger houses in the 'burbs (I know GZ loves this American-dream, home-as-an-investment rationale, LOL, and I'm not getting into that debate here).
Practically all the single homeowners stayed and I know this from going back there for summer block parties.
Just sayin'--not every house gets put up for sale because the homeowner(s) are out of work or tired of Toledo's stagnant economic climate.
posted by McCaskey at 10:42 A.M. EST on Mon Jun 04, 2007 #
How strange you would use those dates, McC'y. The last housing bubble in the US ramped up in the last 1980s, crashed by 1991/2, and the bottom was reached by about 1996. The fore-sale-ing you saw was a direct result of bubble economics and doesn't represent a sane real-estate market. That we see the same thing now is just an indication of being in the midst of yet another unsustainable bubble -- which crashed in 2006, and now we're riding the market down until, oh, gee, 2011-2013 (depending on the stupid reflation efforts of the government).
The truth is, housing tracks incomes and that's a lousy investment for returns, but a great investment for security.
Toledo's housing bubble is provably not as severe as in places like Boston, NYC, LA, Seattle, Dallas/FTW, Tampa, etc. In places like that, the median home price is a large multiple of the median income -- x4 for starters, x8 commonly, and as high as x12 in some instances. These bubbles are purely farcical since anything over x2.5 is very stressful for the family economic unit. x5 can only be destructive. x8 and more? It's like dropping a tac-nuke on a a family finances. So, millions of people in those areas are simply screwed.
Unlike those places, Toledo's numbers are OK, in that the median home price is about 2.5 times the median income. But, THAT is not Toledo's problem. The problem is that Toledo is in the midst of a general economic collapse ... too many businesses have left with respect to the remaining population, those businesses that remain are largely predatory, and the government is even more predatory. That x2.5 number should only have been a MAXIMUM, and for Toledo's collapse it's still too much of a financial stress. The truth is, when you're in and out of work for decades, it's very difficult to maintain a mortgage.
All housing bubbles take a long time to bottom out. The same thing is happening now. The housing bubble in America was assuredly national since the toxic loan products were national in scope -- every bank and mortgage company in America offered them, and even pushed them upon buyers. Toledo must now endure a falling of home prices from this great problem, and the pressure for prices to fall is doubled from the economic collapse.
As for what this has to do with recalling Czarty ... well, as a mayor he has essentially no control over home prices, except it was always incumbent upon him to keep the government minimal or efficient when tough times eventually arrived. Instead, Czarty handed out tax abatements like they were candies, and spent lavishly. He's the last person who's qualified to guide Toledo into the inevitable state of economic collapse. When the last worker has his last two dimes to rub together for heat, Czarty will want one of those dimes. Get rid of the bum.
posted by GuestZero at 11:50 P.M. EST on Mon Jun 04, 2007 #
So what's going to happen if Carty gets elected to a 4th term and Jack Ford gets officially elected to school board?
posted by brassmonkey at 08:48 P.M. EST on Tue Jun 05, 2007 #
The answer to brassmonkey's doomsday scenario:
That's not the Sun Oil refinery in Oregon doing a dramatic burn off.
posted by jr at 11:54 A.M. EST on Wed Jun 06, 2007 #
BTW, since no Republicans exist on City Council, and Carty is in his third term as emperor, and now that Ford has assumed control of the vacant school board seat, Toledo has moved to Defcon 2, one step away from imminent danger.
posted by jr at 05:14 P.M. EST on Wed Jun 06, 2007 #
Brassmonkey, what do you think will happen when excessive taxers and spenders gain even more complete control of the mechanisms of government? Ford will affect the $400M machine called the TPS, and Czarty will more directly affect the $200M machine called the city government of Toledo. I don't know the county's recent budget, but it's gotta be up there a bit; the 2003 budget was $137M, and it's all controlled now by more tax-and-spend Democrats. Overall, for 2008, Democrats will preside like lords over $1 billion in budgeting in the Toledo area ... which doesn't even count things like the Port Authority and the fraud known as the TPS “Building for Success” school construction program.
They'll spend more money, issue more bonds, and pack the ballots with levies for stupid shit like COSI. My grandparents have a modest 2/3BR home assessed at $120K which they paid off decades ago; however, with all the levies piled onto their property by Toledo's cretinous electorate, they're effectively renting their own home from the government for over $200/mo.
The bonds issue is even more egregious, since on their own so-called authority they put the public on the hook since any bond is a borrowing of future tax revenue. When the pols issue a bond, it's up to each citizen to say "ah that means I'll have to pay more tax in the future". Bonds are even worse than straight taxes since to use them, a financial institution arranges the issue and sale, and they always take their cut. The TPS is arranging to do the same for FY08, and up to $10M if they please.
posted by GuestZero at 07:49 A.M. EST on Thu Jun 07, 2007 #
whats wrong with trying to shake up these lifetime politicians??????they constantly promise and dont deliver and give us the opposite.and as far as this just being his family...i know his family and the fellas standing with him in the blade picture are not family...by the way if hes such a great guy why are some people afraid to sign names for fear of retaliation
posted by sixmore at 05:47 P.M. EST on Sat Jun 09, 2007 #
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