These people should have more common sense than to hire strippers for a political function. I am amazed at the arrogance of so many politicians.
If these clowns want to go to a legal strip club on their own time and money, so be it. Not my choice of entertainment, but so long as the state allows the likes of Deja Vu, Scarlett's, and Joe-Bob's Hooter Revue to stay open, let these overgrown teenagers have their fun.
But when strippers get hired for a major political fundraiser, heads should roll. I am glad that at least a few of the Democrats were willing to publicly state their opposition to this kind of stupidity.
Finally - while it appears that Scarlett's owner paid for the strippers himself - does anyone else find it odd that there is such a cozy relationship between the strip club owners and local politicians?
Oh wait, I forgot - we live in a land where money buys political influence. Sorry about that, folks - I got lost in some idealized vision of the United States in which politics was about common goals, protecting liberty, and stuff like that.
Sheesh. I need to go back to PoliSci 101.
posted by historymike at 11:03 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Whether they were strippers were not, they were not paid by the Lucas County Democratic Party from my understanding from what I've heard and who I've talked to. They were brought by the manager of Scarlett's. Did he pay them for coming with him? Probably, since I doubt the girls would have volunteered, with this now becoming an AP story?
It's going to be talked about quite a bit most likely so that much should probably be clear. I have a feeling more will be coming out on this today and in the days to come...
posted by psyche777 at 11:08 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
What a bunch of sanctimonious prudes we Americans are! A little nookie on TV or nudity in public and we all go into hysterics. But it's o.k. to show somebody's guts splattered all over the landscape. We need to grow up.
posted by pete at 12:17 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
For the record: I am a "sanctimonious prude" about violence on television as well, Pete.
Flipping the implied question around: Do you, Pete, believe that political leaders should be cavorting with strippers and strip club owners at political functions? Again, we are not talking about their private lives, but at a function that in some respects defines who the party is.
posted by historymike at 12:36 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Who cares whether it's an official function or not? I don't. Matter of fact, we need to have more official functions with some sauce instead of the usual dull, gray stuff we're served. I'm not afraid of sex, are you? And why?
posted by pete at 01:06 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Question - who would be skankier, the 'ho's or the politicians?
posted by billy at 01:42 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Agreed - I rank the job of politician way below stripper.
posted by SensorG at 01:47 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
A few naked women never hurt anybody. If they are not welcome at the Democratic Party, I can always have a party they are welcome to attend.
posted by Z71 at 02:00 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Good one, Z71.
posted by pete at 02:05 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
This fund-raiser happened last Friday, June 29, correct? Why is this story only coming out now on July 3, right before a holiday? Looks like a nice time to bury the story to minimize public exposure. If it was a Republican fund-raiser that occurred on a Friday, and the Blade knew about it, it would be featured on Sunday.
posted by jr at 02:11 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Spuyten Duyval, a public course in Sylvania Township with a Dutch name that means "In Spite of the Devil."
Who'da thought I could learn something new in a story about democratic politicians and 'ho's??
I always wondered what it meant. Now I wonder why they chose that name - anybody know?
posted by billy at 02:28 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
I agree with historymike, in that I hate the graphic sex & violence on tv - and it has NOTHING to do with a fear or distaste of sex I was a 60's free love child, I've seen a few public displays.... I mention that pete, because your response is very similar to those of the 'make love, not war' era - young people's responses to a shocked, older generation ("Bodies are beautiful, man, sex is natural man, can ya dig it man?"). The youth of that era (and I was one) also leaped to the assumption that anybody who had issues with public displays or flesh showing (older generation) just were prudes & didn't KNOW or appreciate sex like the younger people did. It was bullshit then, and it's bullshit now. In fact, people generations older than my parents, could have shown US a thing or two, probably - youth did not invent sex or a flash of flesh.
But I've learned that what my parents tried to tell me is true. There's a time & a place for everything. And sexual or scantily dressed displays are not appropriate for "mixed company" or anything more than casual among your own crowd events.
The way I explained it to my kids, why I had such a distaste for what could randomly appear on my tv screen while flipping channels (who laughed at me, but are now embarrassed by the same thing, at 24 - 25 yrs old, when there IS 'mixed company' in the room) - is this:
My daughter had asked me "what exactly, did I mean by mixed company?"
My response: Any gathering of people who are of different ages (and possibly sexes, depending on relationship & age) beyond a 3 -5 yr age difference - taking into consideration each persons' possible embarrassment or gross out level. My kids learned that different groups, activities, functions may call for different degrees of modesty & behavior & language.
My 24 yr old daughter is very much still a bit of a wild child, free spirit - but would never think it's ok for strippers to work at a political function because it simply casts negatives on the politicians, and there are probably MIXED ages at such functions (and different beliefs). Unless the strippers were dressed modestly, and their jobs were kept private - but even then, stuff like that has a way of surfacing. Even she would feel that politicians should hold themselves to a loftier standard. And it has nothing at all to do with whether the politicians or public are prudes or not. Kind of like not using the "F" word, or dressing like a tramp, or telling crass jokes around your grandmother. There's a time & a place. Also, most politicians preach family values, and I doubt that strippers fit into family values.
posted by starling02 at 02:35 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Spuyten Duyval can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spuyten_Duyvil
posted by pete at 02:41 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Starling, some strippers have families, too. You sound like an old lady.
posted by pete at 02:45 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
*sigh*
I am so sick of these dumbasses. Montalto, Irish, etc. act like this is 1957, not 2007. Someone obviously OK'd the attendance of strippers at the course. Thank god for political patronage in the public sector, otherwise these clowns would be unemployed....
posted by Ace_Face at 02:59 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Starling02 and HMike are correct.
There's a right time and place for everything -- unless, of course, the local Dems are trying to appeal to the likes of Pete? (I don't know Pete, but he seems to be in favor of the Dems' outing. Maybe they're trying to get his vote. ;) )
Mike
posted by miked918 at 03:06 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Politicians, the ultimate prostitutes, feign disgust about strippers.
At least the strippers have actual jobs.
Grow up, Wade.
posted by Hulkster at 03:09 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
The strippers/waitresses are actually performing artists. It's part of Lucas County's initiative to make the Toledo area more arts-friendly, which will improve the economy. So we should all embrace this.
posted by jr at 03:24 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
(laughing at jr)
Again: my concern is that these overgrown teenagers posing as political leaders are being entertained by strippers at an official function. If they want to hang around seedy strip clubs on their own time and dime, it's still legal, so have at it.
Just don't invite me.
But for all of you who believe strip clubs to be harmless little places of male bonding and good times, let me ask you these three questions:
1. Would you be happy if your sister worked at a strip club?
2. Would you be happy if your daughter or your wife worked at a strip club?
3. Would you be OK if they issued a permit for a strip club in a vacant lot across the street from your house?
If you can honestly answer "YES" to all of these questions, then I suppose you are logically consistent.
I still wouldn't want to hang around with you, though, dude.
posted by historymike at 03:46 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Exploiting sexuality at a political fundraiser is not only uncouth, it's uncalled for. I know there are way more cultural ways to seperate Joe Public from his money, but this is pretty incredible.
I'm all for having a fun time on a golf outing. When you represent a political party with a fundraiser, you expect somewhat of an ethical outing. All this incident does is cheese up the works. It's disrespectful to the party, it shows the depths some will go to pander for favoritism, and it shows how bad off the Democrats in Toledo really are.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 03:47 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Besides, I'd have rather enjoyed hanging out with Carl, doing bong hits and carving cute forest creatures out of C-4.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 03:51 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
What an embarrassment. The only thing worse would be advertised links to sex sites on the cities web page.
Don't the Dem's remember why they lost the presidental election in Ohio in 04... it was Bush's supossed values and moral character. Well apparently it's lacking in the leadership of the local Dem party.
It seems as though Montalto is trying to buy some political favor locally due to the recent legislation coming out of Columbus.
posted by fish4 at 04:14 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Oh Johnny................too much cheap beer?? Vision a little blurry???? Hmmmmm.......You boys should know better. Now, resign.
posted by Boota at 05:21 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
pete, I'm well aware that strippers have families. My daughter's friend worked at Scarlets as well for awhile - I don't have problems with strippers in general. And I guess I should have prefaced my comment by saying it depends on how the strippers were dressed, and their demeanor. I wonder how anybody even knew they were strippers? Actually, I think I'm fairly laid back about girls working as strippers, whatever pays the bills, etc. I just wonder how anybody knew they were strippers in the first place. And, why were strippers 'hired' to 'volunteer' in the first place? (there was a reason, even if it was only to get a 'Hooter' effect). As opposed to hiring waitresses from IHOP, or Dairy Queen, or The Red Cross,etc., etc. If the strippers were dressed appropriately for the event, I don't really have a problem I guess. It just seems an odd choise for a political event that should be considered wholesome & family friendly, and good for the candidates image (that is the point of these things, is it not?). I know there was an issue of local politicians or something racking up strip club bills recently - this doesn't really help their image much by hiring strippers.
And I'm not a prude pete. But it can be embarrassing to be flipping channels in the evening, with your kids & perhaps your parents in the room (or mother in law)to have 2 - 3 channels in a row showing highly graphic in your face sex.
posted by starling02 at 05:27 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Aaaaand once again, the intrinsic American sexual shyness raises its ugly head. Didn't the Puritans die off?
This tempest in a teapot reminds me of the Paige Davis Incident which cost her her TV job. That just took the cake. She was put on the set in the best form-hugging material so she could strut her stuff across the screen, but when she does an impromptu stripping act in a clubbing moment --- OH! OH! OH! ... she's out on her finely-sculpted arse!
Americans are such prudes and hypocrites. Such intolerance of what's completely natural is more than socially obtuse. We may as well ban smoking ... D'OHHHH!
posted by GuestZero at 05:41 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
GZ:
You just HAD to bring up smoking, didn't you?
:-}
posted by historymike at 05:47 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Starling, you'll find more scenes of graphic violence on that same TV than you will bared female breasts. Your sentiment is frankly just silly.
Europeans get along just fine with public displays of naked people. Their children aren't damaged by such. It's time for the USA to grow up. We ARE prudes and it's time to ditch that kind of sentiment. People like naked people and bared flesh, and that's nothing to be dismissed.
Hell, unlike smokin' and drinkin', naked displays aren't even a VICE. "No one was harmed in the baring of these buttocks."
posted by GuestZero at 05:47 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
HM, you know me by now ... find a chink in the armor and fire a Trident missile through it. Problem solved!
posted by GuestZero at 05:49 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Montalto and Irish are exactly what is wrong in politics today. They are nothing more than thugs. Irish ought to be relieved of his chair but the hapless Chris Redfern doesn't have the balls to remove him.
Politicians like these contribute to the so-called 'brain drain' as well as the loss of population of the city.
posted by Man_with_the_muck_rake at 07:16 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Maybe I missed something, but except for the one reference to one waitress/stripper/server (whatever you want to call her) lifting up her top and then her bottom, these strippers didn't seem to be...well...stripping...per se. They were acting as waitresses. I have no doubt they were dressed provocatively, but I'm guessing dressed not a whole lot different than the girls at the "legs 'n eggs" breakfast/lunches places around town (City Diner, Hooters, etc.).
The judgement here was poor, no question about it, but it'd be one thing if there were a dozen girls there giving lap dances to guests. Strippers acting as waitresses (except for apparantly the one exception)? Life's too short, let's worry about the big stuff.
posted by McCaskey at 07:27 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
So the local Democrats must not have any good-looking women to be greeters, beverage cart drivers, etc., for a golf outing? And they wouldn't have to take off their tops. Keep it clean, Dems. I'm an independent and maybe I should join the Democratic Party just so I can play in these wild golf outings. [LOL!]
posted by toledojim at 07:28 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Mr. Kapszukiewicz said. "I don't mean to be judgmental in what adults want to do on their own time in their own home, but what I saw did not represent the values of the Democratic Party."
Hell it didn't. If the worst thing that happened to me during the day was that I saw some boobies, I'd say I had a good day.
posted by Chris99 at 08:52 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Seriously though, what's wrong with this?
posted by Chris99 at 08:59 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Nothing is wrong with it. It's how we all came into the world, but some people think it's dirty and shameful. Americans have an incredibly huge hangup about sex. The Blade wrote a story about nothing and meant only to inflame the prudes.
posted by pete at 09:25 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Hulkster, Wade was CYA-ing in his press conference. Him and the other dems that were there need the public to know that they have nothing to do with that malarky. Major CYA there.
Billy, I am ROFL at your comments. you a funny guy.
I think the whole scandal about this story is the poor taste and indiscretion on the part of the people who threw the outing together. These are the people that make major decisions for this city, and they couldn't realize ahead of time that this might not have been the best idea. Or, even worse, that they are so brazen that they don't give a rat's ass about blowback over this story...
...pardon the very icky pun.
posted by gotoledogo at 09:42 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
Spuyten Duyval, a public course in Sylvania Township with a Dutch name that means "In Spite of the Devil
I'd always thought it was Spitting Devil. Go figure.
posted by OhioKat at 09:44 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
If, in fact, these girls/women were strippers who cares? One person made a very bad move in raising her shirt and lowering her shorts. Stupid and bad manners. Oh well. Life goes on.
As for the men standing around taking it all in....get real. If a man sees a set of boobs, a bit of cleavage or some butt cheek he's going to look if he's not blind. If he has any class he won't get caught looking while his wife/girlfriend/sig other is with him. Fact of life. (Admit it, ladies - we look at the good looking men just as much as the men look at the women. It's a human thing)
I'm having trouble with the reference to 'ho's' here though. Just because these girls dance for guys that want to drool and spend money does not necessarily make them "ho's" in any way shape or form. I think it's wrong to classify a worker in any industry as something unsavory just because of the market they serve.
Face it - if there was not a market for flesh then the strip clubs, peep shows, Hooters, Star Diner, City Diner, etc. would not be in business. It's human sexuality and it's here to stay. I suggest that we learn to adjust and accept rather than make ourselves crazy with hypocritical behavior.
posted by DoknowDocare at 10:23 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
I realize you won't find a lot of very graphic sex (harder than soft porn) on basic tv. We have a LOT of movie channels through Buckeye Cable. I tried to dump many of them, we don't watch most of them anyway - but long story short, it will cost me $17. MORE per month to get rid of those we don't watch to keep those we do (I know it makes no sense, but take it up with Buckeye - I've been on the phone with them about this enough already). I've learned to be cautious when channel changing if somebody who may be offended is in the room. I am NOT referring to simple nudity - or even full frontal nudity. I am referring to basic porn. An example: My parents are in their 80's, my dad is failing a bit mentally, and when he's 'aware' he's mentally 'off', he tries to protect his ego by watching tv (avoids conversations, so he won't feel embarrassed - his stupid male ego). Envision a family gathering that includes my aging parents, my husband & me, our kids, my nephews & their young kids (under the age of 13), just hanging out before & after dinner, like families do. In the middle of dishing out dessert, or gabbing with my sister, I look up to see my dad's dozed off while channel changing, and the channel he stopped at (or the movie that was on previously had changed to a different one) a man & 1 -2 women having hot & heavy sex - beyond full frontal nudity - I'm talking humping & pumping & genitalia exposed. This would be classified as porn, or at least, moderate porn. Fine if that's what you're looking to watch. NOT fine, if it happens to come along on the tv while channel surfing, or while dad fell asleep, and made worse, when my dad or somebody can't figure out the remote buttons to change it. It is not that I have a problem with nudity & sex - it is that there is a time & a place, and I prefer to not watch porn with my parents & children in the room.
Guestzero & pete - If you're ok with watching graphic porn with your parents & children & grandparents in the room, then I guess you win the 'easygoing' award. I am not comfortable with watching porn with my kids & parents in the room. And I don't think it suggests that I am a prude for feeling that way. My daughter is as UN prude like as they come, and SHE'D be embarrassed if it came on with her dad or brother in the room. But I challenge you both to come on over, I'll invite my parents & nephews & we'll put on Showtime for ya - I want to see the expression on my parents faces as they watch you watch porn in front of them. I think it's more about respect for other people's values & sensitivity levels. That is more important to me that proving to the world that I too, can watch porn with my parents & kids & feel FREE about it.
posted by starling02 at 10:35 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
some butt cheek
Maybe I'm just jaded, but I doubt that it was butt cheek that was being flashed when she lowered her shorts. lol
posted by mom2 at 10:35 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
"Seriously though, what's wrong with this?"
Nothing. We're having some laughs at the expense of the local Democrat party. Well, at least I am. This will be a joke that will be referenced many times in the future. Got a problem with making fun of this?
Look, the potentially big problem for the Lucas County Democrat party could come from PETA if somehow the Democrat party mascot was involved in the golf course shenanigans.
We have to pay Wade our taxes this month. I didn't see the stripper tax included on the bill.
The people behind the LCDP fund-raiser may have been influenced by last week's story about lap dances on a golf course in the Poconos.
Right next to the ball washer.
posted by jr at 10:52 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
This is yet further cause to remove the OBC and start over. This lil "party" has made national headlines. It's going to roll a while then another will hit the press. Enough is enough. Tomorrow theri will be a form letter on my blog to sign and send to council.. If you agree, do what must be done.
posted by Chad at 11:08 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
"Graphic porn" on Showtime?
posted by MT1973 at 11:13 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
jr, I don't play golf, but I have decided to take it up after seeing the picture. I thought it looked boring before.
posted by pete at 11:16 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
I think that Pocono golf course has an idea that the PGA may want to consider in order to improve TV ratings, especially when Tiger is not in the hunt in the final round.
This Lucas County Democrat party story has circulated a bit on the AP wire, but it is a positive for the Toledo area. Got that? A positive.
Think of the Fortune 1000 company executives out there that see this. This is how we do golf in the Toledo area, baby. Anyone can do "normal" golf. The problem is, this story broke during a holiday week when many of those executives will miss the story.
Transportation, manufacturing, agriculture, water recreation, and strippers on golf courses, that's how we need to promote the region to bring in new business, and I'm betting that last item on the list could be the clincher for many Bigs. The Carlyle Group will definitely keep Manor Care in Toledo now.
posted by jr at 11:51 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
This is how we do golf in the Toledo area, baby.
Strippers on golf outings isn't exactly unique to the Toledo area...happens everywhere.
posted by mom2 at 11:57 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 03, 2007 #
"... happens everywhere"
Like in the Poconos that I mentioned above? That's why I also listed: transportation, manufacturing, agriculture, and water recreation. Those other areas may not have these features that the Toledo area possesses. Throw in golf-course-strippers and a brand new I-280 bypass bridge, and we are a hot ticket. It's the complete package that sells.
Find another place in the country where in less than a week, the same area opened a new $220 million bridge and had strippers on a golf course for a political fund-raiser. See, that's what sets the Toledo area apart from everyone else and makes us unique and attractive. We can complete the expansive projects and provide the little niceties.
posted by jr at 12:26 A.M. EST on Wed Jul 04, 2007 #
Got a problem with making fun of this?
Nope. But my question was intended for those who did have a problem with this.
posted by Chris99 at 09:27 A.M. EST on Wed Jul 04, 2007 #
Like in the Poconos that I mentioned above?
D'oh...missed that the first time around.
posted by mom2 at 09:39 A.M. EST on Wed Jul 04, 2007 #
It's official, the Lucas County Democratic party does support single moms. LOL
I wonder if Wade, in an effort to stop the further sexual objectification of women, will hire the strippers at the event into the Treasurer's office at about the same rate as they make as strippers?
Seems like a good compromise to me since he doesn't like their current profession.
posted by MikeyA at 10:43 A.M. EST on Wed Jul 04, 2007 #
1. Would you be happy if your sister worked at a strip club?
2. Would you be happy if your daughter or your wife worked at a strip club?
3. Would you be OK if they issued a permit for a strip club in a vacant lot across the street from your house?
No, no and, finally, no. I would not want to live across the street from a strip club.
My objection is not that the politicians should have known better than to hire strippers to serve a golf outing. I object to our elected public officials lack of moral standards.
Consider that these officials are supposed to be examples of good citizenship. They represent themselves as honest, hard working people of good moral character. They have promised to keep the welfare of their constituents in the highest position on their list of priorities.
Strippers are, generally speaking, uneducated, slovenly drug abusers. Most have never graduated from high school or attained a GED. They have the ethics of an Enron accountant and the morals of a hungry dog. Their successful familial relationships are defined as any union that does not involve getting the crap slapped out of them on a regular basis.
So no, I don't think this is an appropriate outing for our civic leaders. I don't want someone in office who doesn't have the moral values and self-discipline to pass a strip club without going in for a quick drink or two. That's what this incident really is; A visit to Scarlett's Cabaret.
And finally, Pete, tell me: Just what are you going to tell Mom and Dad when you bring Bambi, Brandy or Bunni home to meet them? That she's not really a stripper, she's actually an exotic dancer and it's a real art form?
posted by madjack at 12:32 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 04, 2007 #
wah, wah, wah, --- everyone makes impressions of people based on their own perceptions of the world around them. You find those women "slovenly and uneducated", some men find them "beautiful and attractive".
Men find women attractive. Attractive women at fundraisers help take more money from men. Organization benefits from presence of attractive women. Women who do not want to lift up their shirts to sell mulligans will not volunteer for said fundraiser.
Individual values fall on a spectrum, some on the high end and some on the low end, some closer to those on the low end some closer to those on the high end. The problem we face in this country is when people believe that other grown ups are not responsible citizens and leaders because they do not have the same "moral compass".
Most of us however fall somewhere in the middle.
posted by jdmsbyrd at 02:15 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 04, 2007 #
Madjack, I never felt I had to get anybody's approval or blessing about whom I liked or went to bed with. If my parents didn't like the girl I was going with, well, that was their problem. Maybe, you are more used to having others dictate your life to you... or maybe we just belong to different generations. I have never put anybody down or denigrated them for what line of work he or she did. I have always tried to accept people for their value system, honesty, and ethics. Ethics to me doesn't include the Judeo-Christian code of sexuality. If you feel that being a stripper makes a girl a lesser human being, then you need to review your bible again, especially the part about Christ and the prostitute. Don't cast stones!
posted by pete at 02:47 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 04, 2007 #
I'm not at all bothered by the strippers at the outing. Wade strikes me as a pious tattle-tail. He's not my moral compass on this or any other issue.
I found this link to a story that has a couple quotes from Wade 1999, as he was running for council. Said he: “We’ve got to focus on finding a way to shut these places down.”
http://www.clipfile.org/1999/04/09/329/
I can only gather that he continues to have "issues" with all adult oriented activities.
How does Wade feel about gambling?
posted by jimavolt at 05:50 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 04, 2007 #
Nobody sees the irony here? The Democratic Party is the 'Party of Women' - and here they've entertained with a form of entertainment that is so well known for it's demoralization and objectification of women?
posted by katie82640 at 08:11 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 04, 2007 #
Katie said: "demoralization and objectification of women"
Hogwash! You sound like a late-1960s feminist.
posted by pete at 08:34 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 04, 2007 #
Why thank you Pete. :-)
posted by katie82640 at 08:45 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 04, 2007 #
The local party is just following the handbook written by President Clinton. I had to laugh when I read in the paper that the party is forming a task force to get more women elected to political offices. So that will cure the problems? Maybe they can run a stripper for council this fall.
posted by toledojim at 09:45 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 04, 2007 #
Kate, I find it hard to believe that women are demoralized and objectified when they themselves perform the acts that supposedly do that to them. At the very least, cooperation by the "victim" (not to put words in your mouth) is required.
The Republican "keep the little woman at home in her wifely role" trend could also be seen as demoralizing and objectifying. Didn't Betty Friedan go around interviewing housewives in the 1960s only to discover their discontent was turning them into closet alcoholics?
posted by GuestZero at 12:02 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
The Democratic Party is the 'Party of Women' - and here they've entertained with a form of entertainment that is so well known for it's demoralization and objectification of women?
CULTURE OF CORRUPTION!! CULTURE OF CORRUPTION!!
posted by billy at 07:28 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
Simmer down, Billy. The corruption in the Dem Party goes along entire other lines. The "Party of Women" stuff is just a holdover from a previous era of Progressive posturing; now, if you don't have the bux you shouldn't even apply. "Get back to the kitchen, wench. Only women in business suits with big bank accounts matter now."
One major problem with the modern Dem Party is that it doesn't even bother with Progressive posturing anymore (much less Progressive platform planks). Why bother? They have 50% of the vote of a shrinking voting base, sewn up anyway. Fence-sitters that may swing election results can be wooed with bribes and clever slogans. Substance is expensive and risky; but style ... well, that's cheap and fun.
There's a reason why the Presidental election is called a "horse race". The same sentiment applies to the Governor cycles. We just flip the government heads from one pro-corporation, anti-worker, pro-Israel flack to another, and the great workday of America Inc. dawns as same as it ever was.
The Culture of Corruption didn't change in Ohio. It just went underground for the nonce, until some rightwing reporters and organizations ferret it out for us. Make sure you pay strict attention, Billy, to our Great Democrat Overlords in Columbus ... we rely on such things to overcome the same practices of a different political machine.
posted by GuestZero at 08:11 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
While I'm sure some of Showtime's offerings may pale in comparison to what you may find at an adult video store, there are many that far exceed basic nudity & sex acts, and fall into a 'beyond soft porn' catagory. It's easy to skip over these channels (as long as you aren't scrolling with the remote), but if somebody, like my 80's yr old dad or 13 yr old nephew, is not familiar with what is on each cable movie channel (to know what to expect)they WILL get more than just an eyeful of sex. And what I've seen happen here with my dad, is that there's a general 'flustered & rushed' attempt to move fast to another channel (by scrolling to the next channel), only to find that there are often 3 or more of these adult movies in a row. And when the person isn't familiar with our remote or Buckeye cable channels, they often fumble around with the remote, taking forever to remove the blow job that is being shown before my mother sees it. Fortunately, this hasn't happened that often, but like I said - it will cost me $17.a month MORE to get rid of Showtime & the Movie Channel & still keep HBO & the rest. Or, I can choose to get rid of all movie channels. Nuff said on this - I ranted a long time ago about this & everybody said I was overreacting & called me a prude.
madjack - not all strippers are slovenly & uneducated. Many are stripping to pay for college, or to feed their kids (pays better than Wendy's). But many ARE, and many or most, DO seem more raunchy in behaviour - just basing this on some girls my daughter knows. Probably not fair to generalize. Having said that, I would guess that most are more raunchy behaving than non-strippers. But I'm sure there's a lot of very raunchy non-strippers as well.
They clearly wanted eye candy at this golf function, and they could as easily have hired Hooters girls. I was not aware that one or more had flashed people on my first comment, and I do think that was a bit over the top - at first blush. However, boys being boys, I can also see some of the golfers chipping in to pay the stripper/waitresses to flash a golfer who's about to tee off, to throw him off, for fun. I can see a LOT of that happening. Did the strippers just flash for no reason? Or, was that an expected part of their job that the democratic party knew about & expected? I guess I could chalk this all off as a 'guys will be guys' no big deal thing, but what bothers me is that there were spouses & others present, and it WAS a political fundraiser. The only thing that really bothers me about it being a political fundraiser, is that politicians tend to market themselves as being pro family values, ethical, moral, & want to be viewed at the better man. And hi-jinks like this, make them hypocrites, and come off as no better than Joe 6 pack who stops off at Scarlets after work while his wife & kids are waiting dinner for him. I've heard some of the wives were upset over this, but don't know how many wives were even there. I imagine most wives could get past it & laugh it off - but I wonder how many of these golfers knew the strippers by name, before this outing? That, is between the golfers & their wives.
I do think strippers were as inappropriate at a political fundraiser as much as I would if this had been a TPS or Girl Scout event. I don't think anybody would have cared as much if they were working for an event that raised money for domestic violence or child abuse.
My daughter's friends who've worked at these places (briefly) told me that the average customer at Scarlets, Platiums, etc. are 40 - 50+ married men with kids. I was surprised, my husband didn't believe it -he assumed most were guys under 30. But the strippers would be the ones who'd know I think. The most my husband's done is gone to Hooters for a work/school thing, and he wasn't impressed with the food :)
One thing these girls told me that struck me, was how many of these men they recognised as fathers of their friends. So guys, when you head out to Scarlets, be sure that the dollars you're slipping into thongs aren't being worn by your kids friends. Could be embarrassing if you don't recognise them, but they DO recognise YOU.
posted by starling02 at 01:25 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
GO JOE!!!
After getting to work this morning and reading all my newspapers from Wednesday, and I read a lot of them, every single paper ran this story in one form or another.
The Press Journal has this story listed under "Offbeat". The Palm Beach Post had it as a "National" blurb in it's column as a summary. The Florida Today also had it in a column blurb.
Just from reading FLORIDA papers, one could conclude that the Democrats in Toledo Ohio have their heads up their asses.
Way to go, Dom "Huh?" Monnytello and John "Screw you Joe!" Irishiwasinalaska.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 03:58 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
BrianInFlorida, from your description of the newspaper articles I wouldn't conclude that they raked Toledo too harshly over the coals. You sound like you disapprove and therefore "Democrats in Toledo Ohio have their heads up their asses". Take a deep breath and move on.
posted by pete at 04:29 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
pete, thanks for your insight, but I'll post what I find entertaining, especially when it's everywhere.
I do not apologize for not having the same perspective and definitions as you, but I can live with that.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 04:54 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
If you do a google search on "Toledo Ohio", the first thing that comes up is the bit about the strippers at the political golf fundraiser. At least we're getting put on the map :)
posted by starling02 at 05:17 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
Jul 5, 2007 afternoon story at the Toledo Blade:
"(Posted at 4:40 p.m.) The Lucas County Democratic Party's summer stripper scandal went from the golf course to the mayor's office today, after Toledo City Councilman Joe McNamara asked for the resignation of the party chairman from a city committee. This time the shouting came from someone other than Mayor Carty Finkbeiner. Mr. McNamara used a cancelled meeting to dress down party chairman John Irish, who is also the chairman of the Toledo Charter Revision Committee, which recommends changes to the city government's bylaws."
I like that little dig about the shouting coming from someone other than Carty. The C-man is not involved in this, yet the reporter managed to sneak his name into the story in a humorous way.
McNamara won election to Toledo City Council last fall, and Joe was an unendorsed Democrat.
posted by jr at 05:24 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
Last October, the Blade endorsed Igloo Joe.
And Carty and Irish are teammates.
Frank Szollosi said on his blog a couple years ago:
"As far as the Kest gang goes - I don't necessarily expect a 2nd coming, although with Carty, John Irish, Domenic Montalto, Dennis Duffey & Bill Lichtenwald attempting to run Toledo - why wouldn't Ray be welcomed back? Carty & Irish have promised jobs to so many people already, why be surprised?"
posted by jr at 05:49 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
My definition of irony:
According to a fellow city councilman, Bob McCloskey left him an envelope containing $500 on behalf of businessmen opposed to an ordinance clamping down on adult entertainment at Toledo strip clubs.
Wade Kapszukiewicz, the councilman who is now Lucas County treasurer, told the FBI about the 2002 incident last week after federal agents questioned him about it.
Mr. Kapszukiewicz said he found an envelope that he said contained five or more $100 bills on his chair in his City Council office one day after Mr. McCloskey had told him the owners of strip clubs wanted to meet with Mr. Kapszukiewicz about several ordinances he had authored clamping down on sexually oriented businesses.
Mr. Kapszukiewicz said he returned the envelope to Councilman McCloskey.
He said Mr. McCloskey took the money back, saying, "OK, they just want to get to know you."
Took an FBI investigation for Skip to bring that two year old "oversight of corruption in office" to light, and took all of what......12 hours to bring this golfing stunt out, over a pair of tits?
If you're not seeing red flags and flares, I can't help you.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 06:04 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
Whoops...the ol' copy and paste gnome got me...forgot to stretch over this ditty, from the same story:
Mr. Kapszukiewicz in the past had denied to The Blade that the incident took place. But he admitted it yesterday after a Blade reporter asked him about the FBI's inquiry.
Then this, from Tuesday: What I saw was inappropriate, offensive, and wrong," Mr. Kapszukiewicz said. "I don't mean to be judgmental in what adults want to do on their own time in their own home, but what I saw did not represent the values of the Democratic Party."
So, to Skip, it's OK to say bad things about exposed breasts, but it's also OK to hide from a corruption in office, not say a thing to anyone about it, and deny deny deny until the FBI come knocking?
Values and Ethics, anyone?
There, NOW I can't help you no more.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 06:20 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
There, NOW I can't help you no more.
It's any more. Now I can't help you any more.
That's not like you, Brian.
not all strippers are slovenly & uneducated. Many are stripping to pay for college, or to feed their kids
True, but it's rare. My point is that their chosen profession tends to define their moral character. Although, now that I'm writing this, I don't think much of many Baptist ministers or a few Catholic priests, either. But I try not to paint them all the same color as the good but misunderstood Rev. Pitt.
And, while I'm writing, Katie? I miss you.
posted by madjack at 08:03 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
lol I know, I just am lazy today.
Lazy and truly frustrated to think that this simple "blurb" in my local paper could be the root of something much bigger going on. I'd get involved, but I'm too far away from Ray to just have lunch and get some deeper insight.
And if the media would do their friggen job....they'd find that this fiasco is just a scratch....all I know is Bob McCloskey is just one naughty councilperson.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 08:43 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
Me too - come visit Toledo and we'll all go to the Distillery!!
posted by katie82640 at 08:53 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 05, 2007 #
I was cruising channels tonight (out of curiosity of course) - and it's not just Showtime. It's also Cini-Max (sp) & the Movie Channel. Granted, they don't usually start showing this stuff till after 9 or 10 pm (I don't think), and my 80+ parents are rarely here that late (but have been) - so I can handle the soft porn in mixed company here, for the most part. Just a FYI. HBO also has it's shows that tiptoe the line - Hookers on the Point is one (which is an interesting documentary type show, but can be a bit graphic - just enough that I'd blush if my son walked into the room.)
posted by starling02 at 12:02 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 06, 2007 #
Since I gave a "definition", I should at least share my "perspective". Excerpts from my posting at Glass City Jungle:Again, this list is a very important list to the Dems. One hundred and thirty people paid to play in this event. Ryan Kemp may not have played the course, but he did make a contribution, and someone in charge should have caught this.
From this 2003 Blade story: Ryan Kemp, general manager of Diamond’s Gentleman’s Club in Jerusalem Township - where lap dances are permitted - refused to comment on the yesterday’s ruling.
Wade Kapszukiewicz, a Toledo city councilman who worked to pass the law, said the temporary restraining order wasn’t unexpected.
“We recognize this will be a long process,” he said. “In January, when we passed the ordinance, we knew there would be a court battle. And in January, when we passed the ordinance, we knew we would win the court battle.”
It’s apparent Ryan Kemp’s name has been familiar in the community for what, five years? Coincidental that you see their names together in a news story again? (Edit on my part)
I’m not reading a lot into this, it’s right there in front of me.
Now, the way I see it, and I'm not a media investigator, McCloskey may have been in cahoots with these TOLEDO stripper clubs, gauging from the two councilmen at the time that do admit receiving an envelope of some sort from Bob and the comments he's allegedly made to George and Skip.
There has to be someone getting paid in the media that can pick this ball up. It's going to be much more than John Irish resigning from the LCDP, in my opinion.
Or, to some people, a fishing expedition.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 05:46 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 06, 2007 #
Cini-Max
lol...starling, they don't call it Skin-amax for nothing.
(Not that I have a problem personally with the movies they show, but I would probably be uncomfortable to see them w/one of my parents or my kids in the room. Especially my kids, considering they are only toddlers. lol)
posted by mom2 at 09:14 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 06, 2007 #
My suggestion to Starling is to invest in a clapper (you know: "clap on, clap off") connected to the TV power so she can shut off the porno faster then fumbling with a few buttons.
At any rate, I've never noticed people with cable TV being surprised with erotic or pornographic programming. Guys like me are always on the alert for those things, so you'd think we'd know if any ambushes are going on, so that we'd be there by intention ... kind of like when there's a sultry little neighbor who likes to sun herself, or do a little gardening sans most of her clothing, hence causing us to come up with excuses to walk by on the street.
posted by GuestZero at 09:51 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 06, 2007 #
Fortunately, my 80+ dad & young nephews aren't here very often that late in the evening. Like mom2 - I can handle what comes on, but it all depends on who else is in the room (or who may walk in the room). There's been a couple of times when I dozed off late at night watching a movie, only to have my daughter laughing & waking me up, asking "Mom, why are you watching porn??" - I slept through the ending of my movie & didn't realize another movie had started. I can laugh about it with my daughter - but I think I'd be embarrassed if it was my son that walked in the room. (they are 24 & 25)
posted by starling02 at 11:29 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 06, 2007 #
We all have to act a bit differently when children are in the house. Try a simple power timer ($10) that shuts off the TV after a certain hour.
posted by GuestZero at 03:14 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 07, 2007 #
OK, it's obvious I was reading way too much into what is going on.
Ms. Webb said that Ryan Kemp, the general manager of Scarlett's, appeared at her May 23 campaign kick-off.
Mr. Kemp gave her a $50 cash donation. He also brought research to the event about how there are no negative side effects on a community from strip clubs, Ms. Webb said.
I'll be going back to my coolaide now.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 10:49 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 07, 2007 #
BrianInFlorida,
You may appreciate a little ditty regarding Ms. Webb's campaign organization.
One of the co-chairs has the initials W.K.
Just an aside that I thought you would find interesting.
posted by RolandHansen at 11:42 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 07, 2007 #
Hey Roland, thanks for the heads-up, but I'm already so all over this mess! Skip is going to enjoy explaining that McCloskey "contribution", as well as dealing with what he did while on Council, along with several other people.
People just cannot appreciate being outside the slime looking down at it instead of being mucked up in it. WTF is Cinemax when you got a scandal gnawing at your ankles? I got my blurb in my local papers when this story broke, you guys got the WHOLE story, and ya focused on Wade narcing his buddies out over a set of breasts and some butt.
It cracked me up when everyone got all rowdy over female exploitation. This goes to the core of the LCDP, people.
I hope when the warrants get signed, the dates go back to 2001!
;)
posted by BrianInFlorida at 04:08 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 07, 2007 #
It isn't "that women are demoralized and objectified" by stripping, it is that I'd have hoped women would have come farther than they have - that in 2007, many still feel the only way to make a buck is by stripping. And, when you look at the pre-teen & teen clothes being sold, with kids looking far older & revealing far more than their years should allow (I'm Hot belly shirts), it's clear that somebody is buying this shit, and that young girls are still buying into the gotta be sexy mentality, and worse, their parents must agree, or they wouldn't be buying this shit for them. I'm probably naive, but I would have expected women to have evolved a bit more than they have. I've found that most young girls & women don't seem to care or realize, how women have worked to be recognised for more than body parts. To me, that is what is demoralizing.
But women strip for a lot of reasons - mainly the money. Some had horrid childhoods, and it's better than being homeless. Some just pay the bills with it, and you'd never know they were strippers outside the club. But when women take money for being leered at by slimy old men, & expose their netherregions :) for the same - then nothing much has changed, it's been this way since time began probably. I read that the 17th century women were pretty promiscuous & sleazy too.
posted by starling02 at 05:56 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 07, 2007 #
I'm gonna catch hell for this one, but here goes.
Starling, you should be glad that women can make money by stripping. It implies that women are free to withhold their attentions from men, thus restricting supply, and to market them appropriately. I say all that since being able to control a product means that you're at liberty from said product's confiscation.
In short, women are largely in control of their sexuality and can do with it as they please. This is simply not the case in the outrightly misogynist nations like India, Brazil and Iran.
We also can't say that it's a feature of the Toledo area. American cities tend to have vice zones in which many strippers can be found, as well as having prostitutes in the city in the first place. Annie Sprinkle called these folk "sex workers", and it included porn actors and other models. It's an industry and it's nationwide.
We should stop considering stripping and other professions in the sex industry as aberrant or intrinsically socially terrible. There will always be perverts ... in fact, thousands of sexual acts will happen tonight amongst consenting adults in Toledo, which were considered perverse, even illegal, at the dawn of the last century. As long as "perverts" harm no one else, who are we to really complain -- in a nation founded upon the overriding principle of individual liberty?
P.S. It's not all about the women, you know. Surely you've heard of a "man whore"?
posted by GuestZero at 08:04 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 07, 2007 #
GZ - Perhaps you didn't read my other comments about this here & on swampbubbles. I never said that strippers were sleazy, or that there was anything wrong with it. In fact, I said I thought there was nothing wrong with it, and defended why women would strip for pay in the first place. I also said that I thought they should legalize prostitution too - like Reno, et al. And pot. As long as there are men desperate or needy enough that they have to pay to see a pretty naked girl (or have sex with), there will be women making big money for it. I don't fault the women - my logic of the 'whys' of it would take too long to explain, and not relevant anyway. As long as it's not a lifestyle choise, I have no problems with it. If it is a lifestyle choise, then I feel for the strippers when, in their 60's, they can't find work.
posted by starling02 at 08:28 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 07, 2007 #
Fair enough. Note well that if the money's as good as you imply, then saving money during the "perky years" should compensate for when gravity, sun and age take their inevitable toll.
posted by GuestZero at 01:44 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 08, 2007 #
I realize some women strip to pay for college, or feed their families, however, one comic stated "When was the last time you heard a doctor say she used to work as a stripper?". Also, not a lot of worker's rights with strippers - they have to pay to work where they work, regardless of how much money they make (stage time & bouncer fees). I'm sure too, that many don't ever surpass stripping as an occupation. Sex sells, and young girls learn fast how to use it to their advantage. I can't fault the men who pay to see strippers, that'd be like bitching that water is wet - it's just how it is. At any rate - my main concerns were not so much with strippers, as they are with how women have not progressed much at all. They still fall back on selling themselves (in the act, or visually),and start dressing the part by age 12 -16, and they don't seem to 'get' that they are playing into old stereotypes, or care. If you wouldn't care if your daughter or wife were stripping, then you are the rare bird. The following two articles are well worth the read, and sum up pretty much why I feel as I do.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20060917/ai_n16752623
This bawdy world of boobs and gams shows how far we've left to go
In the new raunch culture, the freedom for women to be sexually provocative has usurped genuine liberation
Ariel Levy
Friday February 17, 2006
The Guardian
A few years ago I noticed something strange was happening in my native US. I would turn on the television and find strippers in nipple-tassels explaining how best to lap-dance a man to orgasm. I would flip the channel and see babes in tight, tiny uniforms bouncing up and down on trampolines. Britney Spears was becoming increasingly popular and increasingly unclothed, and her undulating body ultimately became so familiar to me that I felt like we used to go out.
In my own industry - magazines - a porny new genre called lad mags were hitting stands and becoming a huge success by delivering what Playboy had only occasionally managed to capture in the past: greased celebrities in little scraps of fabric humping the floor.
Some odd things were happening in my social life too. People I knew (female people) liked going to strip clubs (female strippers). It was sexy and fun, they explained; it was liberating and rebellious. My best friend from college, who used to go to Take Back the Night marches on campus, had become captivated by porn stars. Only 30 years (roughly my lifetime) ago, our mothers were supposedly burning their bras and picketing Playboy, and suddenly we were getting implants and wearing the bunny logo as symbols of our liberation. How had the culture shifted so drastically in such a short period of time?
What was even more surprising than the change itself were the responses I got when I started interviewing the men and - often - the women who edit magazines such as Maxim and produce reality television series about strippers. This new raunch culture didn't mark the death of feminism; it was evidence that the feminist project had already been achieved. We'd "earned" the right to look at Playboy; we were "empowered" enough to get Brazilian bikini waxes. Women had come so far, I learned, that we no longer needed to worry about objectification or misogyny. Instead, it was time for us to join the frat party of pop culture where men had been enjoying themselves all along. If male chauvinist pigs were men who regarded women as pieces of meat, we would beat them at their own game and be female chauvinist pigs: women who make sex objects of other women and of ourselves.
I tried to get with the programme, but I could never make the argument add up in my head. How is resurrecting every stereotype of female sexuality that feminism endeavoured to banish good for women? Why is labouring to look like Paris Hilton empowering? And how is imitating a stripper or a porn star - a woman whose job is to imitate arousal in the first place - going to render us sexually liberated?
This new raunch culture is being replicated in the UK too. As Natasha Walter noted after the publication of Naomi Wolf's new book last month, there's "a general feeling that feminism had become tolerant of cultural sexism". And that cultural sexism is linked to underlying political and economic inequalities that make it not so ironic or funny.
There is a widespread assumption that, simply because my generation of women has the good fortune to live in a world touched by the feminist movement, that means everything we do is magically imbued with its agenda. But it doesn't work that way. "Raunchy" and "liberated" are not synonyms. It is worth asking ourselves if this bawdy world of boobs and gams we have resurrected reflects how far we've come, or how far we have left to go.
Many women today, whether they are 14 or 40, seem to have forgotten that sexual power is only one, very specific, kind of power. And what's more, looking like a stripper or a Playboy bunny is only one, very specific, kind of sexual expression. Is it the one that turns us - or men - on the most? We would have to stop endlessly re-enacting this one raunchy script to find out.
We have to ask ourselves why we are so focused on silent girly girls in G-strings faking lust. This is not a sign of progress, it's a testament to what's still missing from our understanding of human sexuality with all of its complexity and power. We are still so uneasy with the vicissitudes of sex that we need to surround ourselves with caricatures of female hotness to safely conjure up the concept of "sexy". It's kind of pathetic.
Sex is one of the most interesting things we as humans have to play with, and we've reduced it to polyester underpants and implants. We are selling ourselves unbelievably short.
Without a doubt there are some women who feel their most sexual with their vaginas waxed, their labia trimmed, their breasts enlarged, and their garments flossy and scant. I am happy for them. I wish them many blissful and lubricious loops around the pole. But there are many other women (and, yes, men) who feel constrained in this environment, who would be happier and feel hotter - more empowered, more sexually liberated, and all the rest of it - if they explored other avenues of expression and entertainment.
This is not about the sex industry; it's about what we have decided the sex industry means ... how we have held it up, cleaned it off and distorted it. How we depend on it to mark us as an erotic and uninhibited culture at a moment when fear and repression are rampant. In 2004, George Bush, the leader of the free world, proposed an amendment to the United States constitution to for ever ban gay marriage - which was already illegal. In opinion polls, about 50% of respondents said they thought Bush had the right idea. If half my country feels so threatened by two people of the same gender being in love and having sex (and, incidentally, enjoying equal protection under the law) that they turn their attention - during wartime - to blocking rights already denied to homosexuals, then all the cardio striptease classes in the world aren't going to render us sexually liberated.
Women's liberation and empowerment are terms feminists started using to talk about casting off the limitations imposed upon women and demanding equality. We have perverted these words. The freedom to be sexually provocative or promiscuous is not enough freedom; it is not the only "women's issue" worth paying attention to. And we are not even free in the sexual arena. We have simply adopted a new norm, a new role to play: lusty, busty exhibitionist. There are other choices. If we are really going to be sexually liberated, we need to make room for a range of options as wide as the variety of human desire. We need to allow ourselves the freedom to figure out what we internally want from sex, instead of mimicking whatever popular culture holds up to us as sexy. That would be sexual liberation.
If we believed that we were sexy and funny and competent and smart, we would not need to be like strippers or like men or like anyone other than our own specific, individual selves. That won't be easy, but the rewards would be the very things Female Chauvinist Pigs want so badly, the things women deserve: freedom and power.
AND MORE:
Oakland Tribune, Sep 17, 2006
IN an article in "The New Yorker" magazine, Peter J. Boyer writes about the scandal that hit Duke University after a hired stripper accused members of the prestigious lacrosse team of raping her. Three members of the team were indicted. They maintain their innocence.
The article explores the political, class and racial dimensions of the case. It also reveals a disturbing campus culture of casual and pervasive degradation of women.
Men and women don't date. They attend functions where they get drunk and have sex. The women who have sex with the lacrosse players are called "lacrosstitutes" and are considered higher on the social hierarchy than the "frat sluts," women who have sex with members of fraternities.
The old double standard is in full swing. Men gain status with sexual encounters as women lose status.
This could be happening only at Duke but somehow I doubt it. The sexual degradation of young women is everywhere you look. Junior high school girls have "friends with special privileges," boys, not even boyfriends, who they give oral sex. It's not mutual.
In music videos, women bump and grind in less-than-skimpy outfits like strippers or lap dancers. In mainstream rap music they are routinely referred to as bitches and "hos."
Lacrosstitutes, hos, frat sluts? How in the world did we move from the women's liberation movement of the '70s to the current situation in which women are not only depicted and treated as whores but they accept it, seemingly with little protest? How did we as women allow this to happen?
We haven't only regressed in terms of the degradation of young women, we're worse off. During the repressed '50s and '60s, a "nice girl" could slip up and become a "bad girl." Now, the presumption is all girls are not only bad but they're prostitutes.
In the view of Dawne Moon, an assistant professor of sociology who teaches sexual cultures at University of California at Berkeley, the popular culture's depiction of young women is in some ways a result of the successes of the women's liberation movement.
"Certain generations take things that were fought for in the '60s and '70s for granted. They have forgotten what the battles were, what the issues were, what needs to be preserved," she said. "They don't realize how fragile the freedoms are."
The sexual liberation we fought for in the '70s comes back to haunt our daughters and granddaughters in the current context.
"Sexual liberation was supposed to be liberating for women. They could get birth control and make choices. But without combating male privilege and power, liberation has been turned back against women. Women end up with the freedom to be what men want women to be as opposed to the freedom to have some kind of self determination," she explained.
She said many women students today grew up thinking the women's movement was something weird. "They don't understand it as a thing that worked toward equal employment. The consciousness raising of the '70s has fallen away."
For example, women students will say, "I'm not a feminist but I want to be a doctor."
In a curious distortion, the idea of women having self respect has become offensive and man-hating. (I see a parallel with African Americans. If African Americans express pride in their culture and heritage, resisting the negative stereotypes in history and popular culture, they are often accused of being anti-white. In fact I see many parallels between the position of women and African Americans in a society still dominated by white males.)
"These are the ways social movements get co-opted unless you deal with the underlying relationships of power," Moon said.
Those of us who participated in the women's liberation movement might be tempted to blame today's young women for accepting the degradation. Resisting male dominance and re-defining our identity as women were central to that movement. How can these young women allow themselves to be called frat sluts?
Moon cautions the women should not be blamed for their diminished position. It goes back to a false sense of security. As some of the more overt discrimination against women has lessened or disappeared, they have been lulled into thinking the fight has been won. Only an extremist without a sense of humor would object to being called a lacrosstitute. Correct? It's just a joke, right?
How in the world did we come to this?
posted by starling02 at 05:12 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 08, 2007 #
Sex objectivication is only a problem with a prudish culture to begin with. "[L]ap-dance a man to orgasm"? That's only an issue in a nation that has outlawed selling sex for money. In a truly free society, the man could simply pay the woman money and have a fleshy full-contact experience that would naturally lead to orgasm. The "dance" is only a loophole. You end up with sexual loopholes, distractions, frauds and variances that ALL EXIST due to the harsh reaction against the primal act in the first place.
Past all that basic and huge problem, what remains is that women are subjecting themselves to sexual perversions like implants and other surgery, of their own free will. All they have to do is simply STOP. If they don't stop, then what victimization is really taking place? The implied answer is: NONE.
Once we stop illegalizing sexual acts, then we can see what a free sex industry and population really looks like. A quote from the first article's hits the issue well enough:
«If we are really going to be sexually liberated, we need to make room for a range of options as wide as the variety of human desire.»
posted by GuestZero at 07:30 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 08, 2007 #
GZ - I didn't write those articles, they just summed up a lot of what I was thinking about women buying into stereotypes, etc. I agree, that they are not victimized by working as strippers - there is no victim when it's consenting adults. I also tend to think that the women who get the most upset or angered over strippers & porn are probably the ones with the most issues about their own sex lives. The only times I think being victimized comes into play in any of this, is when it crosses the line, of minors & prostitution (it does happen). One of the arguments they're using to try to pass the strip club ban of the six foot rule, no touching & shut down between midnight & 6 am, is they think strip clubs open past midnight will promote more assaults, rapes, drug use. I think that is bullshit - if you are not of a rapist mentality, you aren't going to rape just because you watched a stripper after midnight. Drug use has nothing to do with any of it - it exists, like it or not, but I doubt it will lessen because they closed the club at midnight. Again - I think they should just legalize prostitution - would be the end of the pimps, it'd be safer with mandatory aids testing like in Reno. But you're right - stripping & lap dances are all sort of a silly prelude for an act that should be legal between consenting adults. But I imagine, the strip clubs fill a need. My daughter's friend who worked at a few said the average customer is 40 - 50 years old, married with kids. Maybe the Mr. let himself go & got all fat & the Mrs. doesn't find him exciting anymore; could be any number of reasons a man would go to these places - for fun or need. I personally am not into porn, although my daughter & her girlfriends like to go to strip clubs now & then (she is not gay either). I just never got into watching low budget, badly filmed, no plot movies showing icky looking men (the men are ALWAYS icky looking in them) and screeching women with boob jobs screaming in fake ecstasy. Just never did it for me - I prefer the real thing, not play acting.
One thing I found interesting - my sister lived in Las Vegas for 7 years, and I assumed that because of Vegas' tag line "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas", that the strip clubs would be more liberal than they are in Toledo. My sister said that the strip clubs in Vegas do not allow touching at all, and they have to abide by distance between customer & stripper & no lap dances are allowed. She did say, that there are a handful of very expensive clubs, that will just pay the huge fines. That the rich & famous take limos to these places & get laid, and the fines are just the cost of doing business. But she said they are very expensive. She also said prostitution is not legal in Vegas, I was surprised.
posted by starling02 at 09:27 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 08, 2007 #
If women who adopt these behaviors and attitudes pick it all up in the pre-teen years, then it's incumbent upon parents to guide their daughters away from the social programming that creates it.
Any mother who's seriously concerned about the future of her daughter should exert tight controls over that marvelous propaganda instrument, the television set.
Of course, by the time said teen is listening voluntarily and avidly to "bitches and hos" sung repeatedly on some MP3, it's probably too late. The "regression to the slut" has already run its course and said teen is just biding her time until her knight in a shining wifebeater t-shirt arrives to show her all the glorious future that a drunken misogynist can provide.
... alright, THAT was a little venomous. But, I think we're in the same region of agreement, that after sufficient education a person should be responsible for their decisions and lifestyles. The education I'm talking about is almost wholly within the purview of the family.
posted by GuestZero at 01:10 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 09, 2007 #
A couple announcements posted at the Glass City Jungle:
1. - Jul 9, 2007 Democratic Women Call for Ouster of Party Leaders:
"A group of women active in local Democratic Party politics will hold a press conference tomorrow, Monday, 11:15 A.M. at One Government Center in downtown Toledo to call for the resignation or removal of Lucas County Democratic Party Chairman John Irish and Executive Director Domenic Montalto."
"Betsy Ujvagi and Christine Smith, both elected members of the Lucas County Democratic Party Central Committee, will be joined by University of Toledo College Democrats President Allison Dow in calling for the ouster of the party leadership."
"The group is also calling for a boycott of party headquarters. They are asking women to join them at a picket on the sidewalk outside of headquarters, located at 1817 Madison, on Thursday at 5:45 P.M. during a meeting hosted by Ohio Democratic Party State Chairman Chris Redfern which local elected Democrats have been invited to attend."
It's been announced that Redfern won't be attending the Thursday meeting and the meeting has been canceled but the protest will supposedly continue.
2. - Media Release: Karen Shanah
Syndicate ToledoTalk
