Indistinguishable as A and B blood to me.
posted by charlatan at 11:27 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 14, 2007 #
Could the Blade perform a real public service and publish a freakin' SCORECARD here?!?!
posted by GuestZero at 12:46 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 14, 2007 #
Why do you care? Are you active in politics? Do you even know how it all works? Or, are you a sideline wiennie whiner who bemoans everything everybody else does?
Start your own political party if you think it is all so easy and if you think everyone in one political party should love one another, think like one another, and go along to get along with one another.
All of you crybabies who complain about others need to get a real life. Me included.
posted by Beowulf at 01:39 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 14, 2007 #
I've been an elected official in Lucas County for 18 years. Because politics in my municipality are non-partisan due to population size, I don't have much occasion to interact at the party level. (I do volunteer at party headquarters for phone banks etc. during election campaigns.) Hence I have no real understanding of what issues the divison is based upon, who holds what party position and how that effects the choice of endorsed democratic candidates. billy, charlatan and GuestZero have, in their own unique ways, asked a very valid question. Party unity is important if the electorate wants quality party candidates to be fielded for office. Maggie Thurber could give us a fairly detailed accounting, I would surmise, if she choose to.
posted by holland at 04:41 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 14, 2007 #
How did the A/B team come about? I've heard that it's the Teamsters and the UAW, that its the Wackos and Really Wackos, and that it's just because they don't get any competition from R's so they have to have someone to argue with.
Does anyone know the history of this division?
posted by mholdri at 05:28 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 14, 2007 #
Holland - even I don't know a lot of the details behind the split as it predates my involvement (13 years) in politics.
The best description and listing of who's who was on Fritz Wenzel's old blog when he was still in Toledo. I've recently looked for it, but it's no longer available. JR's been keeping a list of team members...
IMHO, there are philosophical differences between the two teams ... as well as methodology in how business is done (in the party, in office, in campaigns) ...
posted by MaggieThurber at 05:34 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 14, 2007 #
Ah, sorry Maggie. Didn't meant to put you on the spot. Really I'm just terribly curious about what gives with my own party. And I particularly did not like Duffey's attitude and comments as reported in the Blade today. Based on that it looks like more house cleaning is definitely in order.
posted by holland at 06:11 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 14, 2007 #
"Start your own political party ..."
That's too much trouble. It's easier to move out of Toledo/Lucas County. Problem solved.
Here's a list of the A Team and B Team lineups at the moment:
http://toledotalk.com/cgi-bin/tt.pl/Lucas_County_Democrat_Teams
A June 2005 Toledo Talk posting titled Democrat team 'A' fracture?
Here's the 2005 Fritz Wenzel blog posting titled THE A TEAM AND THE B TEAM. It's no longer found on Fritz's blog, which used to be http://heartlandpolitics.com . I found this old article by using the Wayback Machine at http://archive.org.
Enter the URL of a Web site into archive.org, and you may find old articles for sites that no longer exist such as thementalblock.net.
From Fritz Wenzel's 2005 posting about the A Team and B Team Democrats:
An effort to explain the Lucas County, Ohio Democratic Party.
To understand the workings of the Lucas County Democratic Party, it is important to understand that the party has operated with a rift that dates to the mid-1970s, about the time that Ray Kest burst upon the local political scene. Mr. Kest and the then-leaders of the party found themselves at odds over a long-ago slight, but instead of forgiving and forgetting, Mr. Kest went on to build his own political organization, parallel to the official party structure. As his career blossomed, so did his organization. And the so-called "B Team" was born. At times, his supporters would make efforts to take over control of the party from what came to be known as the "A Team," but they would be rebuffed at every turn. Then, as his personal career sat in shambles amid a financial scandal, his wing of the party finally gained control of Democratic headquarters last year. It's important to know on which team major figures play, so here is that list - please consider it a work in progress, with more names to be added. If you have a question about someone not on this list, send an email and they will be added.
The "A" Team
Mike Ashford, Mark Austin, James Bates, Julia Bates, Mike Beazley, Jay Black, Vallie Bowman-English, Bill Boyle, Edna Brown, Wilma Brown, Phil Copeland, Louis Escobar, Teresa Fedor, Jack Ford, Pete Gerken, Ellen Gracheck, Wade Kapszukiewicz, Marcy Kaptur, Anita Lopez, Keith McCrea, Jeanine Perry, Mark Pietrykowski, Bernie Quilter, Paula Ross, Jim Ruvolo, Tom Skeldon, Frank Szollosi, James Telb, Peter Ujvagi, Meghan Vahey, Tina Wozniak,
The "B" Team
Jerry Chabler (sort of), Dennis Duffey, Carty Finkbeiner, John Irish, Sandy Isenberg (sort of), Harry Kessler, Bill Lichtenwald, Domenic Montalto
I believe Ray Kest published thementalblock.net. That site was an entertaining read. A couple of samples from one page back in 2003:
---- start mental ----
Bob Reinbolt, who recently left the city, was overheard saying that he left because Mayor Jack Ford asked him to do something illegal regarding the awarding of the downtown water/sewer repair project. The firm who got the contract had no experience in such projects and is owned by Richard Mitchell, a college fraternity brother of the mayor. This firm then subbed the job out to one of the other bidders.
* * *
Councilman Bob McCloskey screamed in a private meeting that developer Bruce Douglas "is a f#%king crook." Yet within 2 weeks and after a meeting with Douglas and Councilman Pete Gerken, McCloskey called the Marina District proposal wonderful and is now trying to sell it all over town. Bob's got real problems in East Toledo right now.
* * *
Councilman Wade Kapszukiewicz told his constituents that he will oppose the Kroger store in Point Place but privately told other council members he's not looking for their support on the issue. It's an unwritten rule that district council members support each other on such matters, but that won't happen here. The store's developer or his close friend made a generous contribution to Wade's re-election campaign. Surely, that's just a coincidence!
* * *
Councilmen Pete Gerken and Frank Szollosi made a big deal about the Patriot Act and then quickly backed off. They got ripped by both sides. This just proves that these guys don't really stand for anything except how they might get their next political job.
* * *
Ohio State Auditor Betty Montgomery showed up at the Erie County Republican Women's Club recently and ran into Else Baumgartner, the Outlawyer from Erie County. After Else asked Betty several pointed questions, they were seen shouting at each other about who was hetero and who was a dyke. Miffed, Betty sped off in her BMW, leaving behind a group of wealthy Republicans waiting to meet her.
* * *
Thomas Joseph, who was chosen to be the co-chairperson of the Lucas County Democratic Party, was once convicted of felonious arson and went to jail for five years. A radical and the head of the local Plumbers' Union, Joseph is close to Paula Ross. He was heard to say at a union meeting that business-owners are pigs and workers are exploited by business. It looks like the anti-business climate in Toledo starts with those who select the candidates for political office.
BLOCK STARTING TO HELP FORD
Carty keeps trying to kiss up to John R. Block, but he may be wasting his time. Block has been spreading the word that if Carty runs, he will �destroy� him ( his favorite thing to do to people). Why? The answer is simple. Block knows that Ford will do whatever he wants without question.
When he was mayor, Carty also did most of what Block wanted, but in one instance Carty made Block look bad. JRB never forgets and always gets even. When The Blade was bashing Carty and the Commissioners to give more money for the Valentine project, Carty told Block to �put his money where his mouth is� and embarrassed Block into contributing money from the Block Foundation for the project.
Block uses his columnists to attack a politician he wants to �destroy�. This last Sunday he fired the first shots at Carty in a Blade article under Russ Lemmon's byline. Block implied that Carty lied about the Kroger issue and took umbrage with his Channel 13 stories. The article came right from JRB's pen.
We all remember Carty's tirades. Although it is too bad someone with more stature than Carty does not run, no one wants one's personal life exposed by Block. And who can blame them? But at least Carty paid attention to economic development and got some things done.
Carty should recognize that Block has just begun to discredit him and if Carty wants to win, he needs to take on Block now. If Ford has another term as mayor, Toledo will look like a ghost town.
---- End mental ----
The Toledo City Paper wrote an article about thementalblock.net back in 2003. Maybe you can find it via archive.org. I think the "mental" began in 2003 and lasted to about 2005.
Some past Toledo Talk postings that either were about or mentioned thementalblock.net:
January 8, 2004 - Mayor Ford requests smoking room?
March 16, 2004 - Is John Orr the author of thementalblock.net ?
April 18, 2004 - John Robinson Block hijacks local web site
February 4, 2005 - Ray Kest now owns The Mental Block (thementalblock.net)?
posted by jr at 10:48 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 14, 2007 #
That's exactly what I'm talking about, JR.
Here's some examples of John Irish's buddy, Carelton, in action about hisBeacon Place fraud with Ed Bergsmark:
The letter laid out a series of accusations against Mr. Bergsmark, including that he had a conflict of interest because he is a part-owner of the Toledo Storm, the minor league hockey team that plays at the Toledo Sports Arena. The Mud Hens have proposed a site in East Toledo next to the Sports Arena for a baseball stadium.
“Of all people to be talking about conflicts of interest!” Mr. Bergsmark said.
While Mr. Bergsmark would not say what he was referring to, Mr. Finkbeiner has been accused of a conflict of his own. In 1992, he purchased a condominium on the Middlegrounds property downtown. Two years later, a developer purchased the condo from him at a $107,880 profit.
The condo was purchased to make way for the Owens Corning world headquarters on the Middlegrounds. Mr. Finkbeiner was the city’s lead negotiator on the project and encouraged the corporation to put its headquarters there.
Last year, the mayor pleaded guilty to a fourth-degree misdemeanor for not disclosing on an ethics form that he had received a $10,000 payment from the developer. Mr. Finkbeiner called it an honest mistake. He was fined $250 plus court costs.
Or how about this:
Former Toledo Housing Commissioner James Thurston testified yesterday in Lucas County Common Pleas Court that he accepted a rent-free apartment from Edwin Bergsmark, but he did nothing to benefit the businessman and former developer.
Mr. Thurston, testifying at Mr. Bergmark's trial for passing bad checks, bribery, and forgery, said he signed a dummy lease for an apartment at 2515 West Bancroft St. to keep his job with the city.
"I signed it to get the mayor off my back and fulfill the requirement that I have city residency," Mr. Thurston said. He was called as a witness for the prosecution.
Mr. Thurston said he did not promise anything to Mr. Bergsmark or offer anything to him in return for the phony lease.
Mr. Thurston also testified that he changed his voting address to the Bancroft address because the mayor said he wanted his employees to vote in the election.
"The mayor told me in no uncertain terms that if I didn't vote for him, then I wouldn't be working for the city of Toledo," Mr. Thurston said.
Mr. Thurston said Mayor Finkbeiner on several occasions implied to him that he knew he didn't live in the apartment. "I pretended to live there, and the mayor pretended to believe it," he said.
Mr. Thurston was housing commissioner from July, 1996, to March, 1998, and went to work at Cavista a year later.
And in honor of Dr Scott, this little ditty from 6 years ago:
The city hall staff member who was involved in an altercation Tuesday with Mayor Carty Finkbeiner said yesterday that she won't take any action against the mayor.
Toledo police Chief Mike Navarre said he spoke with Ms. Kowalski yesterday morning. He refused to explain why he approached her or whether they discussed the nature of the dispute.
The incident took place about 5 p.m. Tuesday. Ms. Kowalski has declined to give specifics but has said the mayor used repeated profanity.
She said she reported the incident to Marsha Serio, the city's director of human resources. Ms. Serio has not returned numerous calls seeking comment and was off work yesterday.
The incident was witnessed by at least two administration staffers, Denise Davenport, the mayor's administrative assistant, and Donna Barnes, assistant to Deborah Younger, acting director of development.
Ms. Davenport said she had no comment, and Ms. Barnes was off work because of illness and could not be reached for comment.
The mayor was in Columbus accepting an award recognizing the city for its downtown revitalization efforts. His spokeswoman, Mary Chris Skeldon, has refused to comment on the matter.
If you think Carelton stopped with this tenure, think again.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 05:32 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 15, 2007 #
From JR's post - what does this mean?
Bob Reinbolt, who recently left the city...
Ive heard he lives in Perrysburg, is that true?
posted by billy at 06:28 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 15, 2007 #
Oh, and Beowulf? Take your own advise and get a life, and while you're at it, STFU.
posted by billy at 06:29 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 15, 2007 #
thanks to jr's link, I found a the 'background' piece I was looking for - with the 'lore' about the split.
It's here if anyone's interested...
posted by MaggieThurber at 07:09 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 15, 2007 #
Thomas Joseph, who was chosen to be the co-chairperson of the Lucas County Democratic Party, was once convicted of felonious arson and went to jail for five years. A radical and the head of the local Plumbers' Union, Joseph is close to Paula Ross. He was heard to say at a union meeting that business-owners are pigs and workers are exploited by business. It looks like the anti-business climate in Toledo starts with those who select the candidates for political office.
SCARY!
posted by mholdri at 08:58 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 15, 2007 #
He was heard to say at a union meeting that business-owners are pigs and workers are exploited by business.
LOL - Good old fashioned communist right here in Toledo!!
posted by billy at 10:47 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 15, 2007 #
Oh wow! This was very enlightening.
I'm particularly grateful for jr's stuff and especially Maggie Thurber's link.
posted by holland at 05:26 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 15, 2007 #
Oh, and Beowulf? Take your own advise and get a life, and while you're at it, STFU.
Oh my, billy! A little flustered are you? People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
You like to call names and cuss and tell people to shut up. Dish it out but can't take it?
wah, wah, wah. oo-oo, I'm hurt you got mad at me. Where's my marbles so I can go home. Poor li'l billy doesn't like it when people talk like he talks. What a crybaby!
posted by Beowulf at 05:30 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 15, 2007 #
I was reminded of the A/B Team of the Lucas County D's when I heard Tom Delay recently tell a crowd I was with about the two-team Democrats from his county in Texas.
Although the Toledo split hasn't resulted in a war... yet, I had to mention that there is more than one county in the US with a Democrat Civil War raging.
Wikipedia
The Jaybird-Woodpecker War (1888-90) was a feud between two factions fighting for political control of Fort Bend County, Texas near Houston during the US post-Reconstruction era.
The conflict allegedly got its name from Bob Chapel, a local "half-crazy" Afro-American man who was said to incoherently sing about jaybirds and woodpeckers. One faction — white Democrats opposed to the Reconstruction-imposed government — identified themselves with the Jaybirds. The other faction was known as the Woodpeckers. This group, too, was composed of Democrats, but they represented the Republican Reconstruction government and were elected largely by black voters.
The dispute resulted in a number of deaths and the violence culminated in the Battle of Richmond in Richmond, Texas, the county seat, on August 16, 1889. Following this, martial law was declared and the next day Governor Lawrence S. Ross arrived to negotiate a settlement, resulting in a reorganization of county government under control of the Jaybird faction.
Subsequently, the Jaybirds formally organized as the Jaybird Democratic Organization of Fort Bend County, which dominated local politics for many decades thereafter.
posted by mholdri at 08:40 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 15, 2007 #
How fruitless this whole matter is.
"A" team, "B" team, Democrat, Republican... What a joke.
I don't care what their party affiliation is or what petty little games our city/county officials want to play. Anything that gets in the way of running and improving this area is unacceptable.
Politics just seem to get in the way of governing.
-Dan
posted by photodan at 08:51 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 15, 2007 #
LOL - beowulf, I was agreeing with what you said!!
posted by billy at 06:52 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
The reality is that it is nearly impossible for an individual to run for office (on either side of the aisle) and be successful without party endorsement. Hence, the heavy hand of politics, favors owed and alliances honored, which may not always result in the best choice of who gets the party nod. One of the reasons I have enjoyed being a Councilwoman in Holland as much as I have is that it is entirely non-partisan. Declaring a party and primaries are not required or done. Not that I don't support my party - I do. But to run for office I simply go out to the electorate with my own nominating petition and ask if they can stand me for another four years. So far - so good.
posted by holland at 10:21 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 16, 2007 #
Holland- many local dems have won recently without the county's endorsement ie Mike Craig, Mike Ashford, frank Szollosi. I am sure that a few more will win this year. The local party does not know how to win. They feel that the endorsment and smear tatics are enough, ask lourdes santiagio and taylor balderas how that worked out for them
posted by jthurst3000 at 02:12 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 18, 2007 #
Look what happened to Harry Barlos.
posted by holland at 03:44 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 18, 2007 #
LOL - beowulf, I was agreeing with what you said!!
oops, sorry. Guess I didn't read things right. And then my little fingers just went faster on the keyboard than my peabrain could process whatever went in there.
Look what happened to Harry Barlos.
Maybe, Harry Barlos should become the leader of the County Democrats. It's time someone not tied into the City of Toledo or the Village of Ottawa Hills led the party.
And if not Harry Barlos, maybe Jenny Barlos.
And if not either of those two, there are a number of other dems who have proven records of community commitment; people such as Janet Wolff, Joe Beckler, Gary Kuns, Mike Dansack, Mark Dansack, Sandy Bihn, Mark Luetke, Charles Wittenberg, or any number of others not beholden to A or B.
posted by Beowulf at 07:41 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 19, 2007 #
Haven't you heard? The A Team and B Team leaders of the Lucas County Democrats have shaken hands in a public display of solidarity. That's me in the background in the middle of this photo with a cynical and suspicious scowl over this alleged "uniting." Clearly, I'm not convinced, and I told Laurel and Hardy as much. Then they mentioned something to me about imprisonment, so I grabbed some flat bread and skedaddled.
posted by jr at 09:21 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 19, 2007 #
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