New version of Toledo Talk

Old Line Republican warns America, police state - 2nd republican in 3 days to "Paul Revere" to us that the neocons are going to allow or create a terrorist attack. Keep in mind these are the folks that believe they should make biblical prophecy come true, the battle to end all battles, the return of Jesus, the end of 99.999999999999% of mankind. War with Iran, and using the constitution, referred to as a "g-damned piece of paper" as toitee paper. Of course they have a 150 "graduates" of Pat Robertsons "law school" to help pave the way.
These are the guards at Jonestown, who gave the choice of a bullet, or a nice drink of Kool Aid.


Old-line Republican warns 'something's in the works' to trigger a police state Muriel Kane
Published: Thursday July 19, 2007


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Thom Hartmann began his program on Thursday by reading from a new Executive Order which allows the government to seize the assets of anyone who interferes with its Iraq policies.

He then introduced old-line conservative Paul Craig Roberts -- a former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under Reagan who has recently become known for his strong opposition to the Bush administration and the Iraq War -- by quoting the "strong words" which open Roberts' latest column: "Unless Congress immediately impeaches Bush and Cheney, a year from now the US could be a dictatorial police state at war with Iran."

"I don't actually think they're very strong," said Roberts of his words. "I get a lot of flak that they're understated and the situation is worse than I say. ... When Bush exercises this authority [under the new Executive Order] ... there's no check to it. It doesn't have to be ratified by Congress. The people who bear the brunt of these dictatorial police state actions have no recourse to the judiciary. So it really is a form of total, absolute, one-man rule. ... The American people don't really understand the danger that they face."

Roberts said that because of Bush's unpopularity, the Republicans face a total wipeout in 2008, and this may be why "the Democrats have not brought a halt to Bush's follies or the war, because they expect his unpopular policies to provide them with a landslide victory in next year's election."

However, Roberts emphasized, "the problem with this reasoning is that it assumes that Cheney and Rove and the Republicans are ignorant of these facts, or it assumes that they are content for the Republican Party to be destroyed after Bush has his fling." Roberts believes instead that Cheney and Rove intend to use a renewal of the War on Terror to rally the American people around the Republican Party. "Something's in the works," he said, adding that the Executive Orders need to create a police state are already in place.

"The administration figures themselves and prominent Republican propagandists ... are preparing us for another 9/11 event or series of events," Roberts continued. "Chertoff has predicted them. ... The National Intelligence Estimate is saying that al Qaeda has regrouped. ... You have to count on the fact that if al Qaeda's not going to do it, it's going to be orchestrated. ... The Republicans are praying for another 9/11."

Hartmann asked what we as the people can do if impeachment isn't about to happen. "If enough people were suspicious and alert, it would be harder for the administration to get away with it," Roberts replied. However, he added, "I don't think these wake-up calls are likely to be effective," pointing out the dominance of the mainstream media.

"Americans think their danger is terrorists," said Roberts. "They don't understand the terrorists cannot take away habeas corpus, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution. ... The terrorists are not anything like the threat that we face to the Bill of Rights and the Constitution from our own government in the name of fighting terrorism. Americans just aren't able to perceive that."

Roberts pointed out that it's old-line Republicans like himself, former Reagan associate deputy attorney general Bruce Fein, and Pat Buchanan who are the diehards in warning of the danger. "It's so obvious to people like us who have long been associated in the corridors of power," he said. "There's no belief in the people or anything like that. They have agendas. The people are in the way. The Constitution is in the way. ... Americans need to comprehend and look at how ruthless Cheney is. ... A person like that would do anything."

Roberts final suggestion was that, in the absence of a massive popular outcry, "the only constraints on what's going to happen will come from the federal bureaucracy and perhaps the military. They may have had enough. They may not go along with it."

The full audio of Thom Hartmann's interview with Paul Craig Roberts can be found here.
posted by prime3end to politics at 6:52 P.M. EST     (17 Comments)

Comments ...

Here is the link to the audio of the interview::

http://www.archive.org/details/71907ThomHartmannInterviewsPaulCraigRoberts

posted by prime3end at 10:14 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 20, 2007     #

Here is a link to the executive order.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 01:59 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 21, 2007     #

Okay...I give - what's a "neo-con"? I've seen this referenced so much and have seen some articles on it...but who are these people and what do they believe?

Can someone give me a definition that isn't a link to some extensive article?
posted by MaggieThurber at 08:06 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 21, 2007     #

Possible definitions of "neo-con" :

* Donald Rumsfeld
* Dick Cheney
* Richard Perle
* Paul Wolfowitz
* John Bolton
* Bill Kristol --> The Weekly Standard
* Project for the New American Century think tank. Wikipedia article about it. 2000 report (pdf file) titled: Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century. Wikipedia description of this report. The report states:

"[What we require is] a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States’ global responsibilities."

"Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership of the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of the past century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership."

The "Rebuilding America's Defenses" report from 2000 states that it aims to:

ESTABLISH FOUR CORE MISSIONS for the U.S. military:
• defend the American homeland;
• fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theater wars;
• perform the “constabulary” duties associated with shaping the security environment in critical regions;
• transform U.S. forces to exploit the “revolution in military affairs”;
posted by jr at 08:59 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 21, 2007     #

jr, I really appreciate this information, but I'm not sure it helps...what's different about a neo-con(servative) and a 'regular' conservative...I think that's where I find so much lack of definition...
posted by MaggieThurber at 10:28 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 21, 2007     #

jingo
posted by charlatan at 11:36 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 21, 2007     #

Here is a link to a great BBC documentary about neo-cons and terrorists.

http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
posted by ifXthenWhyNot at 02:20 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 21, 2007     #

what's different about a neo-con(servative) and a 'regular' conservative

Think George Bush vs Ron Paul
posted by Chris99 at 04:10 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 21, 2007     #

'Neo-conservatives' are directly responsible for the complete and toal fiasco that is unfolding in Iraq...

'Regular conservatives', middle-of-the-roaders, many Democrats; in short, just about all enabling factions other than the extreme left-wing of the Democratic Party can be held responsible to a lesser extent.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237

Of course, as we now know, many voted YEA because they believed in the 'intelligence' provided by the administration and the agencies who were pressured to provide the selective intelligence that allowed the administation to 'make it's case.'
posted by McCaskey at 06:40 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 21, 2007     #

complete and toal fiasco

Lol, that word would be total although tool is also an applicable word, not in that sentence, but otherwise in the context of this conversation.
posted by McCaskey at 06:47 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 21, 2007     #

"... what's different about a neo-con(servative) and a 'regular' conservative ..."

I don't know if there is such a thing as a "regular conservative." There are: neocons, theocons, paleocons, corporate cons, libertarian cons, and who knows what else. Each may share some of the principals of the other branches of conservatism, but I believe each has a different focus. Without any military battles occurring, I think a neocon is unhappy.

Wikipedia even has an article titled Neoconservatism and paleoconservatism.

Charles Krauthammer, Bill Kristol, and Pat Buchanan are conservative pundits, but simply calling them "conservatives" is not being specific enough, in my opinion.

Buchanan is called a paleocon, and he was opposed to the 2003 Iraq war from the beginning. Krauthammer and Kristol are called neocons, and both support the Iraq war. Kristol favors a war with Iran. Some or many conservatives believe we should at least continue with the war in Iraq, but how many conservatives support attacking Iran tomorrow? The neocons do.

Opposing the Iraq war does not make one a paleocon. A paleocon consists of a lot more than that. And supporting the current Iraq war does not necessarily make a person a neocon.

A theocon is "a person whose conservative ideology includes a belief that religion should play a major role in forming public policy." In my opinion, theocons get hung up on issues like banning same-sex marriage, Internet gambling, and lap dancing. Not all conservatives support those bans.

Other conservatives are more focused on reducing the size of the U.S. government and ending all taxes. I believe it's possible, however, to be a conservative and support some government programs that truly do help the needy and support taxes that provide valuable resources for everyone.

Some conservatives are only concerned with the free market and capitalism. Not all conservatives, however, support the free market at the cost of hurting the environment.

A free market conservative would probably see nothing wrong with building Sprawlville by destroying prime farm land or natural habitat in favor of new housing divisions and strip malls. This is the uglification of our landscape supported by consumerism. Of course, bonehead government policies and poor-performing public schools within urban centers help fuel Sprawlville.

It is possible to be a conservative and adamantly opposed to big, free market-loving businesses like Kroger and Starbucks and choose to support small, local businesses like the Phoenix Food Co-op and the Downtown Latte.

Crunchy Con may be an offshoot of the paleocon

Crunchy Con Manifesto

1. We are conservatives who stand outside the conservative mainstream; therefore, we can see things that matter more clearly.

2. Modern conservatism has become too focused on money, power, and the accumulation of stuff, and insufficiently concerned with the content of our individual and social character.

3. Big business deserves as much skepticism as big government.

4. Culture is more important than politics and economics.

5. A conservatism that does not practice restraint, humility, and good stewardship—especially of the natural world—is not fundamentally conservative.

6. Small, Local, Old, and Particular are almost always better than Big, Global, New, and Abstract.

7. Beauty is more important than efficiency.

8. The relentlessness of media-driven pop culture deadens our senses to authentic truth, beauty, and wisdom.

9. We share Russell Kirk’s conviction that “the institution most essential to conserve is the family.”


The Oak Openings Region stretches from West Toledo to the Toledo Express Airport. If your yard has that soft, sandy soil, you live in the Oak Openings Region. The short story is, the OOR is a fascinating natural wonder that is unfortunately disappearing due to continual development.

One of the functions of the last Metroparks levy was to buy and preserve as much OOR land as possible. I'm not sure if that's part of this fall's Metroparks levy or not. Regardless, the Metroparks as a whole is one of the gems if not the gem of the county, in my opinion.

The anti-tax conservatives would probably oppose any form of Metroparks levy. The free market conservatives would probably shrug their shoulders and say, "Oh well." as machinery destroys another chunk of OOR land in order to build an expensive, new housing division. And the OOR land could be under assault in the future as Toledo/Lucas County tries to become a world-class multi-modal freight transportation hub.

A balance needs to be established between new development and preserving the environment. Reusing land and buildings within the urban center should be promoted. Unfortunately, it's probably cheaper, easier, more profitable, and less of a bureaucratic hassle to develop undeveloped land outside the urban center. Yes, the new Westgate will be loaded with chains like Costco and Starbucks, but at least it was land-reuse development, unlike Levis Commons and the new mall in Maumee.

Levis Commons developer Larry Dillon will supposedly rebuild the Southwyck Mall area. Southwyck started decaying in the 1990's. Too bad Southwyck didn't become Levis Commons and home to the new OI. Yes, it would be loaded with chain stores, but it would have been land-reuse within Toledo and not new sprawl in farm country. But I'm guessing many factors make Levis Commons in Wood County more attractive to investors and potential home and business owners versus Levis Commons in Toledo.

Anyway, the crunchy con would support the Metroparks levy and programs like the Green Ribbon Initiative.

"The Green Ribbon Initiative is a grass-roots effort to save the Oak Openings Region-a natural community as rare and significant as the rainforest. This globally distinct ecosystem has been designated by the Nature Conservancy, a renowned conservation organization, as "One of the 200 Last Great Places on Earth." "

"Sadly, this habitat is disappearing at an alarming rate as natural areas within the region are being destroyed by urban sprawl. Of the 84,000 acres in the Oak Openings region, ecologists have identifies 6,000 acres of high-quality greenspace running like a ribbon through the area."

"We hope to protect this habitat by creating a biological and recreational corridor of preserved land-a "green ribbon" of natural beauty, rare plant and animal species, and quality recreation opportunities stretching across Northwest Ohio and Southeastern Michigan."
posted by jr at 07:26 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 21, 2007     #

I don't know if there is such a thing as a "regular conservative." There are: neocons, theocons, paleocons, corporate cons, libertarian cons, and who knows what else.

You forgot just plan "con"... :)
posted by SensorG at 07:58 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 21, 2007     #

They are traitors to the constitution and bill of rights, they are the appointees to the executive branch by the oil companies and arms companies. They are religous zealots who want a fascist corporate theocratic oligarchy,,, you know fascism....for jesus. Oh poor Jesus,,in his name, these dicks are working hard to end the world for the religous zealots, the final battle and all, trying hard to make biblical prophecy come true. In the course of that, they get to control oil, ahhh the oil, all of it too. Most importantly they are evil men in control of the country,


Remember the words of our illustrious leader.. "The constitution is just a god damned pieced of paper".

Two republicans came down this week in favor of this administration staging terrorists attacks to reatain congressional and even presidential control in the up and coming election.

Thats a neocon. There's probably more I left out. Did I forget to say "chickenhawks"?
posted by prime3end at 10:08 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 21, 2007     #

They are traitors to the constitution and bill of rights,

If that's all they are, then there's nothing new about them.
posted by madjack at 04:11 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 22, 2007     #

I understand your point Maggie.

I believe the best definition of neo-con was a different name for a compassionate conservative. Someone who "is more socially liberal yet fiscally conservative" however the last congress who was labeled neo-cons didn't fall under that definition.

Personally I think it's a label that just helps people feel better but holds no real substance. It's the liberal equivalent to a conservative calling a socialist a communist.
posted by MikeyA at 07:51 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 24, 2007     #

A neocon is a bad thing to be, its a fascist in the extremist WW2 sense of the word. Look at el presidente's proclamation of last week. According to it, he could jail anyone who gave to a political party that opposes his Iraq war oil plundering and arms dealing.
posted by prime3end at 10:15 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 24, 2007     #

prime, do you have a link to the proclamation?
posted by MikeyA at 10:19 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 24, 2007     #

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