New version of Toledo Talk

    June 30, 2004

The 911 Movie - I recommend that everyone goes and sees this movie. It defenitly tells the truth about our lovely president bush. Also if you have any comments you would like posted contact me at you can also see what our editoral staff had to say about the movie and I will post them for you. Let Toledians and NW ohioians know how you feel about PResident BUsh.
posted by Guest to politics at 2:32 P.M. EST     (16 Comments)

Comments ...

I plan to see it when I get the chance. I read Michael Moore's book Stupid White Men and found it entertaining. Some things we even agree on, like what a waste of time recycling is. It's nothing but a token attempt for people to feel good about the environment while they drive their gas-guzzling behemoths 20 miles over the speed limit and saturate their lawns with chemicals because a dandelion sprouted. And we both like the band Korn.

Anyway, here's a different take on the movie.

"To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability. To describe this film as a piece of crap would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental."

Some additional info about the person who "tells the truth about our lovely president."

Moore seems to despise small businesses.

“You know in my town the small businesses that everyone wanted to protect? They were the people that supported all the right-wing groups,” [Moore] ranted. “They were the Republicans in town, they were in Kiwanis, the Chamber of Commerce—people that kept the town all white. The small hardware salesman, the small clothing store sales persons, Jesse the Barber who signed his name three different times on three different petitions to recall me from the school board. Fuck all these small businesses—fuck ’em all. Bring in the chains.

Hypocrisy pays well ...

"In a letter to Roger Ebert of the Chicago Sun-Times last year, Moore still listed his town as Flint. In fact, despite his proclamations that "capitalism is a sin" and "an evil system," he lives in a $1.9 million apartment in Manhattan and enjoys a $1.2 million summer home on Torch Lake in Michigan."

And some Moore fans ...

posted by jr at 10:31 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 01, 2004     #

Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen wrote a piece titled "Baloney, Moore or Less."

"I brought a notebook with me when I went to see Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" and in the dark made notes before I gave up, defeated by the utter stupidity of the movie."

"... the stunning box-office success of "Fahrenheit 9/11" is not, as proclaimed, a sure sign that Bush is on his way out but is instead a warning to the Democrats to keep the loony left at a safe distance."

"Speaking just for myself, not only was I dismayed by how prosaic and boring the movie was -- nothing new and utterly predictable -- but I recoiled from Moore's methodology, if it can be called that. For a time, I hated his approach more than I opposed the cartoonishly portrayed Bush."

"Moore's depiction of why Bush went to war is so silly and so incomprehensible that it is easily dismissed. As far as I can tell, it is a farrago of conspiracy theories. But nothing is said about multiple U.N. resolutions violated by Iraq or the depredations of Saddam Hussein. In fact, prewar Iraq is depicted as some sort of Arab folk festival -- lots of happy, smiling, indigenous people. Was there no footage of a Kurdish village that had been gassed? This is obscenity by omission."

"... while watching Moore's assault on the documentary form. It is so juvenile in its approach, so awful in its journalism, such an inside joke for people who already hate Bush, that I found myself feeling a bit sorry for a president who is depicted mostly as a befuddled dope. I fear how it will play to the undecided. For them, I recommend "Spider-Man 2." "

posted by jr at 02:16 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 01, 2004     #

I have no love for President Bush but Moore's creations turn my stomach. They aren't nearly as much documentaries as they are propaganda. True documentaries should contain unbiased fact, not video clips edited to take people out of context for the purpose of ridicule. (The Bush golf clip comes to mind)

I'm all for Moore speaking his mind (and making a buck or 5 million), but just don't confuse his work with objective fact finding. His only goal is to ridicule a leader whose politics he doesn't agree with and make money doing it.


posted by photodan at 11:56 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 02, 2004     #

The definition of "documentary."

"Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter."

Yet, Moore himself says about F911, "... an op-ed piece. It's my opinion about the last four years of the Bush administration. And that's what I call it. I'm not trying to pretend that this is some sort of, you know, fair and balanced work of journalism. …"

posted by jr at 02:40 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 05, 2004     #

I was in favor of taking out Saddam. He is clearly evil. But we somehow screwed up the peace. Did Bush have a plan that failed, or was there no plan at all? We are now the "scourage of the planet" to countries that used to be our friends. Our image around the world is horrible. What we need is foreign policy that is consistent and based upon fair values that apply all the time (would Bush have also "liberated" Rawandans?)
posted by Chaz at 07:41 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 05, 2004     #

We are now the "scourage of the planet" to countries that used to be our friends. Our image around the world is horrible.

The countries that you refer to are being held hostage by terrorism. They will be our friends again after we have provided the leadership and courage to stamp out the ones holding a gun to their head.

posted by babbleman at 09:35 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 05, 2004     #

Btw, Hezbollah is eager to back Moore and, no doubt, anyone who attempts to undermine the confidence of America by saying that we are arrogant, the rest of the world is against us, etc., etc.

"The great French Marshall Lyautey once asked his gardener to plant a tree. The gardener objected that the tree was slow growing and would not reach maturity for 100 years. The Marshall replied, 'In that case, there is no time to lose; plant it this afternoon!'"


posted by babbleman at 09:52 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 05, 2004     #

"We are now the "scourage of the planet" to countries that used to be our friends. Our image around the world is horrible."

Who are these countries that used to be our friends? When was our image ever good? Other countries have hated or resented the U.S. for years. It's nothing new. How is your day any better if you knew that someone in France likes the U.S.?

"In one telephone poll of [Canadian] teens between the ages of 14 and 18, over 40 per cent of the respondents described the United States as being "evil". That number rose to 64 per cent for French Canadian youth."

And why should an American care about this? I don't think anyone would. I'm not losing sleep over a bunch of Canadian teens hating the U.S.

posted by jr at 09:04 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 06, 2004     #

"I was in favor of taking out Saddam. He is clearly evil. But we somehow screwed up the peace."

Here are some positives in Iraq, which don't sound like screw-ups to me.

posted by jr at 09:07 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 06, 2004     #

"We are now the "scourage of the planet" to countries that used to be our friends."

I blame sports. Tampa Bay beat Calgary for the Stanley Cup. What? The Stanley Cup in Florida? Texan Lance Armstrong has won the Tour de France the five previous years. The NBA continues to steal more European basketball players. But maybe the tide is changing. Americans lost in both the men's and women's singles championships in Wimbledon the other day, on July 4th even.

posted by jr at 11:57 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 06, 2004     #

The Bush administration lied to us about WMD. We were attacked by militants who reside in Afghanistan. Al Queda has been proven to have no relationship with Saddam (reinforced today by the Senate Intelligence Committee). So, why must Americans die in Iraq when our real enemy is in Afghanistan? Everyone knows that Bush's advisors (except Powell, and particularly Rumsfeld) desired a war against Iraq. Remember Rumsfeld's statement "there are no good targets in Afghanistan. The best targets are in Iraq")?

Our real enemy, which is not Iraq, cannot gain control of Middle East countries on their own. Their only hope was to instigate the US until we attack an Arabian country, then mobilize the masses of poor and uneducated citizens to jihad, so that Al Queda can control one of the governments in that theatre (preferably Saudi Arabia).

Again... Saddam did not attack the US - Al Queda attacked us. We've expended countless resources fighting the wrong enemy. If we had spent a fraction of those resources in Afghanistan, we would have the "real" enemy in jail.

Now, we face continued attacks, probably in the US. Bush was a sucker and played right into the hands of Al Queda. Muslims now teach their children to hate America with even more ferver).

"The countries that you refer to are being held hostage by terrorism." Well... in retrospect, who needs friends like France, Russia, Germany and those Scandanavian countries (that are all, according to babblemouth, "held hostage"). We have the right to ignore the UN and attack anyone we want at any time that we want. If we want to make up nasty stories about countries and then occupy, oh, uh, I mean liberate certain countries that have oil reserves and a strategic location... well, that's our option. After all, we are the USA and we can do no wrong.

posted by Chaz at 06:43 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 06, 2004     #

Many accuse the Bush administration of forcing American ideas on the rest of the world. For telling the rest of the world how to act. Our arrogance coming through. Yet, another American, Michael Moore, is doing the same thing.

"Moore wanted Townshend's rock anthem "Won't Get Fooled Again" for use on the soundtrack of his anti-Bush documentary film, "Fahrenheit 9/11." Townshend refused, saying he thought Moore's previous movies amounted to "bullying." In response, Townshend said that Moore accused him of being a war supporter. Townshend says Moore's attitude was evocative of President Bush's war on terrorism credo: if you're not with me, you're against me. "It seems to me that this aspect of his nature is not unlike that of the powerful and willful man at the centre of his documentary," Townshend observed."

"In the international online media, the pudgy filmmaker from Flint, Michigan, is often seen as all too American. He is more than occasionally described as a stereotypical "ugly American" -- overbearing to people of different cultures, oblivious to nuance, unsophisticated in politics and arrogant in temperament."

"In front of 150 reporters, Moore dispensed political advice to the people of many nations. Simon Houpt of Toronto's Globe and Mail wrote Moore's advice "reflected a typically American arrogance -- his assumption that the war should be the primary issue for foreign voters simply because it's the primary issue for him." "

posted by jr at 04:58 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 13, 2004     #

I read Babbelman's commemts and could not resist from responding. I too was in favor of taking out Saddam. He is clearly evil. But we somehow screwed up the peace. [Gee, I thought the insurgents and fanatics were doing that.] Did Bush have a plan that failed, or was there no plan at all? [This obviously shows that Babbelman was never in the modern military. There is always a plan as to how to "get out."] We are now the "scourage of the planet" to countries that used to be our friends. [Yeah! Right! Like we should really care.] Our image around the world is horrible. [Again, we have bailed these people out so much, why should we care?] What we need is foreign policy [run and controlled by the UN, that symbol of honesty and decoru]that is consistent (?) and based upon fair values [values of how much Oil for Food they can steal] that apply all the time [only if you agree with socialism] (would Bush have also "liberated" Rawandans? [Did the UN do anything?]
posted by vogue at 01:16 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 16, 2004     #

Dear readers, please search and replace "babbleman" with "chaz" in vogue's post. Vogue misread the authors of earlier posts.
posted by babbleman at 09:30 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 19, 2004     #

Moore bluntly provides us with the background truth that few Americans knew but should understand. For generations, Bush and his daddy have been willingly in the tent of the Saudis. It's a real love affair. Check the facts about how many times George W and George HW have met with Saudi leaders. Check how many times those leaders have been given the royal treatment here. The Bush family is so ingrained with the oil-rich Saudi royal family, that George W could not possibly have an objective opinion. When we were attacked on 9/11, and most of the attackers were Saudi nationals, why did Bush allow some 30-40 members of the Saudi royal family to leave the U.S. - when every other aircraft in the U.S. was grounded?

Now, recall how much we were in love with the Shah of Iran, before that regime collapsed. Remember how we (through Rumsfeld) went to Sadam under Reagan and gave him all kinds of money and weapons. Those weapons were used to kill innoccent Kurds and, more recently, innocent Americans. We were so eager to play one Arab country (Iraq) against another (Iran), that we gave chemical weapons to a homicidal maniac (Sadam) who used them to commit genocide, and later to kill American troops.

Think about it for a minute... Bush family = oil production $. Saudi family = oil reserves. Iraq = oil reserves. Cheny = Haliburton (i.e destroy a country so that Haliburton gets billion dollar reconstruction contracts). Now do you wonder why Cheny was so eager to invade Iraq after 9/11, even though the 9/11 Commission proved that there was NO CONNECTION between Al Queda and Sadam?

Under this administration, we make war so that we can control strategic oil and political interests, which can later be exploited for personal gain by the American leaders and their Republican friends. If we really cared about poor, oppressed people, we would have invaded Rawanda. But, no oil or political prizes to be won there. When will Republicans wake up? They continue to support a president who can't think for himself and whose actions are directed by a Vice President whose decision to invade and occupy a foreign country was based upon personal gain rather than the truth.

Worse yet, the group that perpetrated 9/11 is still on the loose. You'd think that any reasonable cowboy could use the greatest military power in history to rope the world's most infamous criminal in less than three years, right? Or, could it be that Bush is so consumed with the failed peace in Iraq, as well as his re-election campaign, that he can't focus on our real enemy.

posted by Chaz at 11:43 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 23, 2004     #

"... even though the 9/11 Commission proved that there was NO CONNECTION between Al Queda and Sadam?"

Your words are wrong and misleading. You need to be more specific and truthful. The 9/11 report said Iraq had no involvement with the Sep 11 terrorist attacks. But the report says there were meetings during the 90's between Iraqi and Al Qaeda officials.


"Former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke insisted to media during the spring 9-11 commission hearings that Saddam Hussein had no connection to al-Qaida, but the panel's final report says that in February 1999 he feared Osama bin Laden might flee to Baghdad."

"Clarke wrote to Deputy National Security Advisor Donald Kerrick, according to the 9-11 report, that "one reliable source reported [bin Laden's] having met with Iraqi officials, who 'may have offered him asylum.'" "

"Other intelligence sources, the 9-11 report continues, said that some Taliban leaders, though not Mullah Omar, had urged bin Laden to go to Iraq."

"The 9-11 report says: "Though told also by Bruce Riedel of the [National Security Council] staff that Saddam wanted bin Laden in Baghdad, Berger conditionally authorized a single U-2 flight." "

"In a March interview with Lesley Stahl on "60 Minutes," Clarke denied Saddam had any connection to al-Qaida."

"In 1999, however, he defended President Clinton's attack on a Sudanese pharmaceutical plant by revealing the U.S. was "sure" it manufactured chemical warfare materials produced by Iraqi experts in cooperation with bin Laden."


"The Clinton administration talked about firm evidence linking Saddam Hussein's regime to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network years before President Bush made the same statements."

"In fact, during President Clinton's eight years in office, there were at least two official pronouncements of an alarming alliance between Baghdad and al Qaeda. One came from William S. Cohen, Mr. Clinton's defense secretary. He cited an al Qaeda-Baghdad link to justify the bombing of a pharmaceutical plant in Sudan."

"Mr. Bush cited the linkage, in part, to justify invading Iraq and ousting Saddam. He said he could not take the risk of Iraq's weapons falling into bin Laden's hands."

"The other pronouncement is contained in a Justice Department indictment on Nov. 4, 1998, charging bin Laden with murder in the bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa."

"The indictment disclosed a close relationship between al Qaeda and Saddam's regime, which included specialists on chemical weapons and all types of bombs, including truck bombs, a favorite weapon of terrorists."


"Commission confirms links"

The staff report concludes that:

• Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan."

• "A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting bin Laden in 1994."

• "Contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda also occurred after bin Laden had returned to Afghanistan."

"Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is the leader of a terrorist group that is responsible for a number of deadly attacks throughout Iraq. He and his men trained and fought with al-Qaeda for years. Zarqawi's network helped establish and operate an explosives and poisons facility in northeast Iraq. Zarqawi and nearly two-dozen al-Qaeda associates were in Baghdad before the fall of Saddam's regime. In 2002, one al-Qaeda associate bragged that the situation in Iraq was "good" and that Baghdad could be transited quickly."


"Ex-president Bill Clinton said that he never saw any link between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, though a 1998 indictment of bin Laden issued by his Justice Department specifically cites such a connection."

"[Clinton] made no mention of his administration's [1998] bin Laden indictment, which stated in its fourth paragraph:"

"Al Qaida reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaida would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaida would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq."

posted by jr at 12:45 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 24, 2004     #

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