Just remember: media silence on (and lack of investigation in) an issue is not censorship, it's ... cultural reluctance. And culturally, America is reluctant to consider itself the Empire it really is. Just like 30 years later, America still hasn't dealt with the massacres in Vietnam. Iraq will probably remain unresolved over a generation from now. It doesn't matter in practical terms who was killed, who was raped, who was tortured ... it's all unwanted information in America.
posted by Guest at 11:16 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 15, 2004 #
Of course that kind of information is unwanted. I certainly don't want to believe that our troops would do those things, under orders or not. But don't you dare lump me in with another of your sweeping judgements. Just because evidence is unwanted doesn't mean I will ignore it.
*If* this latest claim of prisoner abuse proves to be true I will be outraged by that also. But I will not automatically believe allegations based on hearsay. There's a reason the law values evidence and fact. (Which is one of those often overlooked things that makes this country great)
With your apparent ignorance of the Pulitzer winning series about Tiger Force in the Blade, it leads me to believe you aren't from Toledo. (www.toledoblade.com Search for "Tiger Force") Did you also miss the New York Times' reporting about My Lai?
Do you simply fabricate a position from emotional reaction to unsupported allegations *then* try to figure out if you can support it? (Which we have yet to see you try.)
-Dan
posted by photodan at 02:39 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 16, 2004 #
Photodanny boy, you are a poster child of American Reluctance. You only prove my assertion.
You should want to know IMMEDIATELY and in significant detail about the abuses by "your" troops. But you said it yourself:
I certainly don't want to believe that our troops would do those things, under orders or not.
The media well picks up on that kind of thing, and in response serves your desires: they "wait for more confirmation" and other such delaying tactics until the result is soft, fuzzy and overall dumbed down. In short, it's censored. But they are only giving you what you told them you wanted, what with your "don't want to believe" crapola.
I spoke with my co-worker about 6 months ago, and discovered that he was completely ignorant of the illegal expansion of Florida's felon voters list in 2000. When he asked me where I got my information, I said things like "Gregory Palast", the book "Jews for Buchanan", and then mentioned the Internet exposees. As soon as he heard me say "Internet", he rolled his eyes and said something like "Oh, great, now I know it's bullshit". He dismissed it all. And to this day he praises his shining stars of Republicanism, Jeb Bush and Kathleen Harris.
You remind me of him.
Yours is the fine American tradition of raising the bar once the rabble and disturbing information starts to cross. How many news sources do you require before you accept the inhuman behavior of your troops (like all troops before them have behaved)?
So ... I dare, Photodanny boy, I dare indeed.
As for the Vietnam massacres ... yes, duh freakin' duh, I read the Tiger series. Yet my assertion stands: 30 years later, America still hasn't dealt with the massacres in Vietnam. News articles aren't prison terms. "Dealing" with murders requires investigation, followed by indictment, then sentencing, then time served. Kindly tell me how many of these steps were taken. Hint: there weren't many steps taken after the Army buried the investigations.
There's no statute of limitations on murder. Yet America still will not round all of these men up and prosecute them. There are two reasons for this: (1) the victims were just slants anyway, and (2) America doesn't "want to believe that our troops would do those things".
P.S. After all this rhetoric, you may have noted I have said nothing about whether or not the reported information is true. Now who's "fabricat[ing] a position from emotional reaction", Ace?
P.P.S. As for my living in Toledo ... well, Sport, I'll be at the West Toledo library (you know the one, with the expansion that put on false slate-looking asphault tiles) today (Saturday) at 4pm. I'll be the mean-looking fellow standing by the entrance, right by the garbage can at the head of the wheelchair ramp. Drive by if you care to dispel your disbelief. Make sure to wave, since I've been known to wave cheerfully back. I'll leave an informative note for you by the can if you lack the time or courage to come by.
posted by Guest at 10:55 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 17, 2004 #
Oh, are you still here?
-Dan
posted by photodan at 02:35 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 18, 2004 #
"P.P.S. As for my living in Toledo ... well, Sport, I'll be at the West Toledo library (you know the one, with the expansion that put on false slate-looking asphault tiles) today (Saturday) at 4pm. I'll be the mean-looking fellow standing by the entrance, right by the garbage can at the head of the wheelchair ramp. Drive by if you care to dispel your disbelief. Make sure to wave, since I've been known to wave cheerfully back. I'll leave an informative note for you by the can if you lack the time or courage to come by."
Man, I'm lost on this. What in the hell does that comment have to do with anything?
posted by jr at 02:02 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 19, 2004 #
I could be wrong but I think it means, "I've lost the capability to discuss topics intelligently and dispassionately so I'll throw a strange threat your way."
After that post, I'm pretty much going to ignore everything he says.
-Dan
posted by photodan at 06:42 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 19, 2004 #
Maybe it's time "Guest" took a little vacation.
posted by jr at 01:06 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 20, 2004 #
Did you get my note, Photodan? I left a cheerful and good nugget of wisdom for you. After all, I'm actually in Toledo, like I've always said (or implied), and since you chose to question that fact, it's now up to you to place your cards on the table. Go get your note, Photodan ... to prove that YOU are a Toledoan. I left a business card stuck on the trash can, with my pearl of wisdom enshrined on the reverse.
I'm perfectly willing to leave another one, with the same message, anywhere you like ... within reason, since "in a tiger's mouth in the Toledo Zoo" is obviously unfair.
As for Jr: Take a "vacation"? No, noooo, nono-noooo ... I'm not going away (from this board, but probably Toledo in due time). No, the dissenting voice you have been trained not to hear is here to stay. What needs to take a "vacation" (in your sense of the term) is your natural reluctance (like Photodanny-boy's) to deal with uncomfortable topics. Truth is a harsh mistress, yet we must still obey her demands, lest we fall into mediocrity ... surely a summation word for Toledo if there ever was one. ("Pathetic" would be another.)
Would you care to return to the topics you oh-so-unartfully attempted to divert the readership from with your feigned alarmism? Or can we count such as your official acquiescence?
posted by Guest at 11:48 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 20, 2004 #
Wow, I thought this was a discussion web-site not a boxing ring. Save the bitterness for
The Toledo
B ias
L othsome
A rrogant
D emoralizing
E gotists
Bye all, have a good life
posted by memorex at 09:07 A.M. EST on Wed Jul 21, 2004 #
After being subjected to your behavior so far, I'm really not interested in any "nuggets" that come from you. In fact, I'm not interested in any more of your name calling, profanity or instigation either. Your posts will go ignored by me until the time you can have a discussion without turning it into an argument and you accept that others can have a different opinion without them being intentionally ignorant or foolish.
You may indeed have valid points to add but your behavior is what keeps them from being considered by others, not their veracity. For the record, you appear to have put some thought into topics (which already sets you apart from most of the public) so I really hope you do stick around, but to add to discussion, not act like an omniscient bully.
-Dan
posted by photodan at 10:54 A.M. EST on Wed Jul 21, 2004 #
(So much for "pretty much going to ignore everything" I say here. But you'll still read it, Photodanny-boy, and that'll have to do for the interim.)
Combining Photodan's sentiment with what memorex said, we must deal with the polite stupidity of Toledoan life.
I used the term "happytalk" before when labelling those piles of "children's books" in the West Toledo branch library. The term is apt. Those books are icons for Toledoan thought. Those pages may as well be empty for all the depressed intellectual development they foster.
What do any of you here expect from a "discussion"? Everyone politely agreeing with everyone else? That's not a discussion. People discussing things in any honesty and in the least expected education, will differ significantly on any topic. People in constant agreement are just advocates. Like I said before, Human intellects are primarily built on conversation, and opinions make such things contentious.
It is nowhere near enough to "[s]ave the bitterness for" the Toledo Blade. The Blade is just more inane "push" information technology, like TV. Information flows 99% in one direction. Things like ToledoTalk.com are far more interactive; info flows back and forth, like a frothy wavefront of informative goodness.
The truth is indeed out there, and it apparently makes many people feel uncomfortable. Added to this are people like me, whose religion is Truth Itself. Like Peter O'Toole said in "The Lion in Winter" (a film I highly recommend): "When I bellow, boy, bellow back!" The solution to speech that troubles you is not silence, but more speech. After all, there's a nasty rumor going around that ToledoTalk.com is an online forum (egads!).
So, to Photodan I must say: Silence leads to ignorance, and ignorance leads to stupidity (since stupidity itself is obviously the "condition of being ignorant for too long"). If stupidity is your goal, well ... your plan will definitely work.
posted by Guest at 12:02 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 23, 2004 #
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