So besides not closing because of Bush, the company merely shut down and didn't move offshore as Mayor Ford said? Jeez, I guess we should be glad he got the company name right.
I really hope taxpayers didn't pay for this trip as it had nothing to do with running this city.
-Dan
posted by photodan at 01:09 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 05, 2004 #
Wow... so much angst! And, how does it really make you feel when a human being makes a pubic, I mean public boner, I mean error. Why are you really so angry with Mr. Ford. Did he impugn your daughter's virginity, or something? You act as though Ford committed a felony or joined Al-Queda. As for his alleged relationship with The Blade, what evidence can you share?
posted by Chaz at 03:44 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 05, 2004 #
Regardless, you'd better get used to Ford. If Ludeman is the only serious opposition, Ford's going to continue to be Toledo's mayor. Like Detroit, Washington DC and other such failed cities, Toledo has fallen into the hole of having a Black mayor and won't come out of it. The factories have primarily fled, and the pittance population of factories that remain are poised to flee. The politicians continue to try to raise taxes on the remaining economy to keep up their addiction to spending, and their unceasing efforts to remain in the elite. The so-called homeowners (I say "so-called" since they are in reality long-term renters who will never pay off their mortgages) are getting into a tax war with the people with income, producing the next great dispute: shall we use property or income taxes to fund this decaying society?
The only serious threat to Ford would be Carty ... and that says everything about Toledo's depraved state of existence, since Carty is simply a functionally insane person. Ludeman is just the periodic symbolic presence put forth by the Conservatives as they try to enact Hypercapitalist rule. The real Mayoral race in Toledo will continue to be between the endorsed Democrat and the unendorsed Democrat.
Toledo is a Third World country disguised as an American city. None of the above trends should be surprising therefore. When it comes time for people to be gunned down in an American street a la Somalia, Toledo will be one of the first places it will happen. If I were you, I'd make sure I was armed.
posted by Guest at 12:39 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 06, 2004 #
Either you revel in the hyperbole of exaggeration, or you need to step back from all of that caffiene. "Toledo is a Third World country..." is a rather strange comment. I guess when the warlords of Toledo invade Ottawa Hills, I'll start to worry.
Digging a little deeper ("Like Detroit, Washington DC and other such failed cities, Toledo has fallen into the hole of having a Black mayor and won't come out of it."), are you suggesting that we need a Caucasian mayor? It sure seems like you are framing bigotry within a thinly layered argument. Would you also believe that we sure need a black president, since all those rich white guys haven't done the job well?
Bigotry comes in all flavors. Yours looks like it's origin is vanilla. Please use this site to project LOGICAL suppositions that are based upon an individual's intelligence, experience and talent - NOT THEIR ETHNIC ORIGIN!
So, if you want to offer logical discourse about Mayor Ford's effectiveness, please do so without reference to his racial status.
You might also want to give yorself a name. I don't know anyone named "Guest."
posted by Chaz at 11:02 A.M. EST on Tue Sep 07, 2004 #
Chaz's useless contribution, "Did he impugn your daughter's virginity, or something? You act as though Ford committed a felony or joined Al-Queda."
Ford has his one big chance to make an argument as to why Bush is a bad president, and Ford mucked it up in a huge way. Who is providing Ford with the data? Where's the fact-checking? How can the Ford administration be trusted to get anything accomplished in Toledo when they can't get this one simple thing right? How can these mayors blame Bush and not themselves? I guess 'all politics is local' doesn't apply today.
So the best Ford could come up with was a company that produced chrome bumpers? What's staggering, besides Ford's buffoonery in this matter, is the fact that a company that made chrome bumpers lasted until 2003.
Using Ford's warped logic that everything wrong with Toledo is W. Bush's fault, then it must be true that anything good with Toledo is credited to W. Bush.
For example, according to testing, the Toledo Public School system has shown improvement in each of the last two years and is now off of academic emergency. According to Ford, all the credit goes to Bush. The credit for Jeep's expansion project announced earlier this year also goes to Bush. The Mud Hens collapse at then end of the season is also Bush's fault.
posted by jr at 04:57 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 07, 2004 #
Chazster, in the face of dire economic times, your righteous indignation is pathetic.
Toledo's economy is a master-slave setup that would fit perfectly into Mogadishu's culture. That people aren't being shot on a daily basis is irrelevent since the model exists to allow such extreme forms of Third-World-ry to happen. I mean, you DO understand that before a catastrophe occurs, everything looks OK, right? Before the cable snaps, the cable is holding. Before the tornado, there's the calm.
As for Black mayors, I'm not suggesting ... I'm blatantly saying that in a White majority town, with strong anti-Black sentiment, the presence of a Black mayor says volumes about the area's extreme social instability. I AM saying that a catastrophe is brewing. But, oh, that's right, Neo-Liberal thought says to condemn such musings as racism and hence such lines of thought are to be terminated. Logical, sure, but a certain disservice to learned conversation about the topic. Ford's Blackness is an issue. Period. After all, I wasn't the Black man who toted a 6-ft-wide sign through downtown Toledo (yes, right up Huron Street, in broad daylight) some months ago that said "FORD IS AN UNCLE TOM NIGGER". (Remember, Neo-Liberal thought dictates that you can't be annoyed at that, since Blacks calling each other "nigger" is NOT racism, whereas your paying attention to it, even discussing it, IS racism (assuming you're White). Wheee! Isn't Neo-Liberal philosophy fun?)
Listen up, Bunky ... hordes of Whites simply don't vote in Toledo. THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM. They feel disenfranchised (remember the Third World model for Toledo's economy?) and hence don't participate. (Yes, yes, I know: that's their mistake.) Having an extensive population of nonparticipants in a Democratic Republic is a clear prelude to Fascism. First there's the long-simmering, sullen anger, and then there's the burning and killing.
P.S. Naming is a prelude to censorship. I refuse to name myself; I'm Guest and you'll just have to put up with that ... you have no choice in the matter. I did allow you to see me at the West Toledo library on that one Sunday, but in true Neo-Liberal form, you felt significant fear and didn't show up. I mean, it was broad daylight, in public, with many witnesses and you still felt threatened. What an armchair warrior you are, Chazzio; it's just pathetic.
posted by Guest at 01:23 A.M. EST on Wed Sep 08, 2004 #
Chaz said, "And, how does it really make you feel when a human being makes a pubic, I mean public boner, I mean error."
Yet, recently Chaz said, "Here's an example of why Bush is an air-head... NEWSWEEK reports that President Bush, appearing before a right-to-life rally in Tampa, Florida, on June 17,'04, stated: "We must always remember that all human beings begin life as a feces. A Feces is a living being in the eyes of God, who has endowed that feces with all of the rights and God- given blessings of any other human being."
The audience listened in total disbelief, as the President repeated his error at least a dozen times, before realizing that he had used the word feces" when he meant to say "fetus."
And we deserve another four years of this?"
Others claimed Bush never made the comment. So not only is Chaz going ballistic over someone's error in mispronouncing a word, his anger could have been directed at something that never happened.
I don't have time for anal-retentive grammer police freaks who get off by correcting others' language errors. Journalists love to do this as they sit behind their editors and their word processors with grammer checking and spell checking.
But there's no way you can equate a mispronounced word with what Ford said. The two are not even remotely similar. Did Ford give the wrong company name? The wrong union name? The wrong number of jobs lost? The wrong reason for the jobs lost? Ford had multiple mistakes with his statement.
And the magnitude of where Ford made his blunder cannot be overlooked. Ford wasn't speaking to a small neighborhood gathering at one of Toledo's branch libraries with only local media covering the event.
Ford was in New York City with fellow Democrats from around the country, during the Republican National Convention. A major political event. A major media event. No grammer errors. No words mispronounced or misspelled. Just a blatant false statement.
Did Ford assume he wouldn't get caught with the lie? Or was a it a true mistake, which still makes me wonder how it could happen? As far as I know, the Blade never reported the mistake. How can that be?
posted by jr at 11:44 A.M. EST on Wed Sep 08, 2004 #
P.S. Naming is a prelude to censorship. I refuse to name myself; I'm Guest and you'll just have to put up with that ... you have no choice in the matter. I did allow you to see me at the West Toledo library on that one Sunday, but in true Neo-Liberal form, you felt significant fear and didn't show up. I mean, it was broad daylight, in public, with many witnesses and you still felt threatened.
You can say whatever comes to your odd little mind but the word that best applies to someone deciding not to drive across town to observe an anonymous nutbag would be "prudent." I can't speak for anyone else to whom you made that strange offer, but after reading your flaky ranting and observing your general tendency to be an asshole, I decided you were worth neither my time nor gasoline. (even if you turned out to be somewhat rational in person)
While naming may be a prelude to censorship, it's a pretty common courtesy considering you are only a visitor on someone else's site.
-Dan
ps. don't be so sure about there not being a choice in the matter, slick.
posted by photodan at 10:14 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 08, 2004 #
JR: "Using Ford's warped logic that everything wrong with Toledo is W. Bush's fault, then it must be true that anything good with Toledo is credited to W. Bush." If you really want to carry your "analogy" through... it's "if everything bad in Toledo is Bush's fault, then everything good in Washington must be Ford's fault." I believe that is, in fact, the correct re-postulation of the initial side of your analogy. I was not an English major (mine was Psychology), but I'm pretty sure this is the correct analogy.
Both: Ford fu#$&d up big-time during showtime. But how many of us can claim that we never made a big mistake. We all do. And, how many of us screw up and then later do a lot of good for society. Look, I'm not a Ford fan. I've met him and spoke with him a few times. I don't think he currently has a lot to hang his hat on for re-election, but I also don't think he's done any harm. You complain, but offer at best silky threads of inuendo, then connect them by dubious logic or with references that offer minimal comfort with truth. If Ford commits other blunders, he will hang himself. You don't need to offer the rope just yet.
JR: What in the wide-wide world of sports does an alleged Bush "feces" remark have to do with Mayor Jack Ford's convention statement? Bringing that remark into a totally different topic, then attempting to use it to slander a contributor is not only illogical, but immature. By the way, jr, how old are you, anyway?
GUEST: When did you stop taking your medication? You are either a raving lunatic or you just arrived with a white sheet over your body and a funny-looking pointed hood over your head (with holes for your beady little red eyes). Let's just check some of your amazing assertions. "hordes of Whites simply don't vote in Toledo..." According to The U.S. Census Bureau, a much higher percentage of MINORITIES are disenfranchised from participation in elections, including LOCAL elections. You have it backwards. The percentage of participation (number of actual vs.potential voters) is, and has always been MUCH HIGHER for WHITES. I'd love to see your references. Meanwhile check the Census Bureau.
Next, "Toledo" as a "Third World Country?" How many Third World Countries do you know about that have a democracy, freedom of the press, state of the art medical and university facilities, one of the world's highest standards of living, low unemployment, virtually no inflation, good schools and the opportunity to upgrade your lifestyle in an unlimited manner. This "Third World Country" sounds like one of the best places in the world to raise a family.
Next, you said, "Having an extensive population of nonparticipants in a Democratic Republic is a clear prelude to Fascism." That, Guest, simply is not true. Many democratic countries with FULL voting participation have gone facist, including the German Weimar Republic from 1912-1945. Many would call Hiter's government the ultimate facist republic. There, virtually every German of voting age participated. Also, Italy (circa 1936-1944) had higher voter turnout and was significantly facist. Didn't you take Western Civilization History? At least as an undergrad?
So, please share those references and take your medication there, Guest. Don't worry, there's always hope that the KKK will have a revival in NW Ohio.
P.S. The reason I didn't show up at the library is that I'm disabled. I rarely leave home. Calling me "fearful, threatened" and "pathetic" is even more immature than jr's tangent of trecherous irrelevance.
posted by Guest at 10:25 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 08, 2004 #
Sorry, that was me (above). I forgot to sign in.
posted by Chaz at 10:26 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 08, 2004 #
I don't see anything wrong with calling Mayor Ford on things in which he is factually incorrect. Especially when he's using the information to lay blame for some of Toledo's problems on Washington.
It makes me believe he came up with the theory and *then* looked for supporting evidence. If true, that's an inherently flawed way to solve problems. The scientific method states you're supposed to look at the evidence first, then theorize. Apparently the political method doesn't work that way.
-Dan
posted by photodan at 01:10 A.M. EST on Thu Sep 09, 2004 #
"JR: What in the wide-wide world of sports does an alleged Bush "feces" remark have to do with Mayor Jack Ford's convention statement? Bringing that remark into a totally different topic, then attempting to use it to slander a contributor is not only illogical, but immature. By the way, jr, how old are you, anyway?"
I have know idea what point you are trying to make with this statement.
Chaz, you're the one who implied that a simple public error was not cause for "angst," which I agree with. But you had no problem reaming Bush for his simple public error, which may not even happened. It's your logic that's being questioned.
In my opinion, Ford didn't make a simple mistake. In your earlier post, you tried to equate a mispelled word with what Ford said, which was an absurd comparison.
According to news.google.com, only WTOL reported Ford's blunder.
"A spokesperson for the mayor's office apoligized saying the information the mayor received was inaccurate."
posted by jr at 09:25 A.M. EST on Thu Sep 09, 2004 #
"I have KNOW idea what point you are trying to make with this statement." OK... I guess that if I was more intelligent, I would "NO" what you mean! You still didn't tell me how old you are. Ford embarrassed himself. Is that a capital offense? At least he didn't use fabricated intelligence to convince us to destroy a country that had nothing to do with our real enemy and never really posed a threat to other countries, killing 1,000 Americans and countless innocent Iraqis. Keep it in perspective.
posted by Chaz at 08:20 P.M. EST on Fri Sep 10, 2004 #
"Keep it in perspective." What the hell kind of cop out shit is that? Why don't you keep it on topic? With your kind of thinking, there would be no point in publishing any news except for what you believe is a false war. According to you, any non-Iraq news story should be squelched.
Hurricane destruction, football scores, who cares? Keep it in perspective news people. It's not Iraq, so don't talk about the weather or sports.
This site name is ToledoTalk.com, and Jack Ford, believe it or not, is the mayor of Toledo, so that puts Ford's comment within the perspective parameter of this website. If all you want to discuss is the president or Iraq, go elsewhere. An occasional mention here of national or international news is fine, but I'd prefer that the site stick with topics related to northwest Ohio and southeast Michigan.
Wait a minute, you're perspective idea is right. As far as we know, the Ford administration hasn't tried to use forged documents to make a point.
What's with the age fetish, Chaz? Are you one of those classify-everything types? Do you have the urge to label everyone by race, gender, age, and education? Your buddies in the market research industry would put me in the 18-64 age bracket. In case you're wondering, I have brown hair and green eyes. Do you also need my height and weight, hobbies, turn-ons? Should we add a personals section to this site?
Once again, you'r straying from the topic with this age questioning, which I don't understand. If my age is not on my member page, it's probably because I don't consider it important information. If someone else wants to display their age, that's fine. I don't care.
posted by jr at 01:22 A.M. EST on Sun Sep 12, 2004 #
Photodan, my offer to be viewed in public was in response to Chaz's assertion that I didn't even live in Toledo. I offered to prove it in the only way I could. He made that offer into some sort of threat (which is just the usual for a documented Internet sloucher like Chaz -- everything's a threat, why go outside, etc.). Those are the facts. Asshole or not, I live in Toledo and will prove it to anyone who dares to use my residency as some justification for nullifying my statements. That's simply standing by my statements in general. Call it nutty all you want, but it would be "prudent" to not cast accusations that you aren't willing to confirm (when a reasonable correction is offered).
As for courtesy, I can clearly use this site as a "Guest". Provisions for Guest-hood are here, so what's so terrible about using them? The site provider is in fact being courteous TO ME when he provides Guest access. I wanted it; I have it; hence, I'll use it. And I'm still pretty damned sure you STILL have no choice in the matter ... after all, if you "have the power", then use it, Bunky. There's nothing funnier than people getting so honked off that they choose to censor or restrict. Har har! In fact, I'm wrong, the only thing funnier is Democrats complaining about democratic methods (CA recall, Nader, etc.). Hoo hoo! Jeeezus, I'm rolling on the floor here.
posted by Guest at 10:07 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 12, 2004 #
Tsk, tsk, Chaz. So many logical errors, so little time to apply the corrective, figurative head smack.
Census Bureau: You mean, the CB for the entire UNITED STATES? All 275 million people? Gosh, and Toledo is only about 350000 of that. Hmm. Yes, I should read the CB stats and simply interpolate for Toledo without leaving my own home ... and still reach the wrong conclusion based upon my observations. My knowledge of Toledo voting patterns come from my personal experience. Anecdotal to be sure, but still valid. And from what I've seen, hordes of Whites don't vote. In contrast, when Ford ran, hordes did appear: hordes of Blacks showed up at the polls. I saw it, and friends of mine saw it at different polls. A curious turn, don't you think?
And you don't need a white hood to recognize that. But Neo-Liberals always scream "racism!" when somebody tries to discuss any issue of race -- other than in the most glowing, pro-Black terms, that is. You've proven this once again.
Third World: You continue to avoid the very nub of my gist, that being: Economically, Toledo is a Third World country. The economy here is based upon government support of populations -- I'm betting that you get a government check ... am I right? -- with an almost vanished manufacturing base, and master-slave relationships pervade the culture. If I had a dollar for every time people I knew here told me things like "don't rock the boat", "you deserved to be fired for speaking up" (about fraud), and "you have to obey", then I'd never need to work again. Toledo is awash in well-established class warfare. It's the worst microeconomy I've ever seen in the United States (my other views being Massachusetts, Colorado and Mississippi). It's primitive and limiting. It's the shame of America and shouldn't exist. And it's just the thing for creating scared little half-participants like yourself.
Raising a family in this environment is completely ruinous. "IS" = present tense. Sure, Toledo used to be a pretty acceptable place to live, what with all the home ownership and factories ... but by the late 1970s things went south quite quickly. Ever hear of the Rust Belt? You're in it, pal. Toledo is a pit compared to many other places in the USA, and there's no excuse for it. So, raising children here now should be considered child abuse. Where are the jobs for them, Chaz? The thing I noticed most about Ohioans -- when I was "abroad" (the Toledoan term for being out of Toledo, which tells you everything you need to know about Toledo's innate provincialism) -- is that there are a great many Ohioans out of Ohio. Ohioans generally get a clue and leave their depressed State. If you'd spent any time out of even Toledo's standard 5-mile diameter Depression, you'd start to see this.
About the only people who would find Toledo a good place to raise a family are the Toledo cops who violate TPD regs and live outside Toledo. The worse the culture gets, the more job security they have, and they don't have to send their brood to Toledo's horrid public schools. (As recent reports suggest, the public charter schools are no better.) Why on earth do you think that Washington Local's homes are so pricey? As well as the population shift towards the west? People are fleeing Toledo's despondency. It's not like I just noticed this; it's been going on for over a decade. And the sheer numbers of people "voting with their feet" make your seeming pro-Toledo stance simply fantastical. You live in a fantasy world, Chaz. Toledo is one of the pits of Hell ... compared to what it should be, not to Somalia. Anyplace in America will beat Somalia, sure, but that's no excuse for letting anyplace in America come to resemble Somalia, you follow?
And you ain't seen nothin' yet, since the real shootings and fires haven't started yet ... since they are the inevitable consequence of a Third-World-ization of a First World city. Toledo's Third-World-ization is an ongoing process. This is why Humans have forebrains ... we are supposed to foresee the dire consequences of current and past actions.
Disabled: Wow, that explains a LOT about your postings: scared, condoning State action in personal affairs, etc. Hey, sorry, but I did leave a little note for you in case you had trouble getting over there. After all, you talk the talk, you are obligated to walk the walk, even if you can't walk, if you know what I mean. Toledo has plenty of streets and ramps ... and in fact the West Toledo library has a handicapped access ramp. They installed that ramp BECAUSE YOU ARE HANDICAPPED. It's there to ENABLE you. Didn't you get the memo?: Hiding behind the "I'm disabled" excuse is now laughable. You DO feel threatened ... this exudes itself from many of your postings.
You see, I know about this ramp, since I live in Toledo, you jerk. I'm as qualified to speak here as are you. Get used to it.
Nonparticipants: You've attacked the wrong target (like Dubya). We already live in an Empire. Current America -- not the Weimar Republic -- has already exampled that nonparticipation leads to fascism. Arguably, when I was born in the late 1960s, I was already the subject of an Empire, and not a citizen of a Democratic Republic. America was pursuing the Cold War since the 1950s, had already condoned many assassinations in the 1960s, and in fact the entire structure of military-industrial controls had already been in place since the 1940s. It's taking a long time, but we're getting there. We've already tossed millions into prison for doing nothing more than indulging in the economy of drugs. The War on Terror is just another nail in the DR coffin.
There's also another little factoid that your collegiate masters neglected to reveal to you: when Democratic states go Fascist, they spend some time attacking other states they demonize as "worse" and "Fascist" too. This too can continue for some time. But eventually America will have to deal with her own population with all the violence that it metes out to places like Central America and the Middle East. There's been plenty of preparation (a la the Nuremburg Laws -- remember, the supression of Jews in 1930s Germany was perfectly legal) in America for extending the fascist enterprise. Guantánamo is the first blatant American concentration camp. Abu Ghraib is the 2nd, but is a lot further away, and away from the sight of the "decent people" in America who might actually complain about the conditions. (Remember, a lot of time is going to be spent attacking other countries, before all that violence comes home to roost.) Since Reagan, we've been preparing about 30 concentration-camp sites inside the USA. All that's needed is a spark to light that particular fire.
America's Imperial Fall is taking a while. As a bit of an academic about the rise and fall of Empires, I'm still collecting details. But I'm not wrong in the whole.
posted by Guest at 11:58 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 12, 2004 #
1. Where exactly are those "concentration camps" in the US?
2. FBI reports, along with local police reports, clearly demonstrate that violent crimes (except for rape/sexual assault) have been going DOWN for the past four years.
3. Every article I've read in the past few years shows that blacks & hispanics feel MORE disenfranchised than whites.
4. I've had four operations on my lumbar spine, including spinal fusion. I cannot sit upright for more than a handful of minutes without being in severe pain. So, what's the point about RAMPS? A wheelchair is of no use to me. You see, you made a false assumption about my disability, just as your frequently incoherent babbling may be based upon false assumptions.
5. As for Toledo's economy and standard of living, it's important to include some basic facts. Real estate costs are lower here than most comparable (Midwest) cities. Crime is lower than it was five years ago and still dropping. Thousands of small businesses are here and most are at least holding their own. The school system is a work in progress, but it's showing signs of improvement. Residents of Old Orchard and Ottawa Hills are part of Toledo, and they are not in imminent danger of collapse.
6. As "a bit of an academic in the rise and fall of Empires," (not sure why you capitalized the "E" in empires), where exactly did you do your graduate work? Are your assumptions based upon double-blind research?
7. There's a lot wrong with our country, much of it created by the current administration and Congress (i.e. bowing to the NRA on assault rifles), and much of the Midwest is a "rust be
posted by Chaz at 03:28 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 13, 2004 #
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