Somewhere in the woods, a bear is excreting.
The Pope has stated something that the Catholic Church has held to be true for two thousand years - that the Catholic Church is the right Church. It is no different than when my evangelical friends say you must be born again, or when members of the LDS faith say theirs is the true form of Christianity and certainly much more mild than when many Lutheran synods proclaim that the Pope is in fact Antichrist.
What the Pope did not say is that you need to be Catholic to get into Heaven or that not being Catholic is a sin. That is because this is not true. Sin is an intentional thing, and the only way for this to apply would be if someone deliberately chose to not be Catholic while also believing that the Catholic Church is the true church.
In the eyes of this Pope and the Catholic Church, if you aren't Catholic you are mistaken, no more, no less. In this case it is the duty of the Catholic Church to evangelize and spread the truth, something that all religions are familiar with.
posted by taliesin52 at 12:40 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 23, 2007 #
That's not exactly true. Here's the quote, take it however you want:
All Christian traditions except Roman Catholicism have “defects,” “wounds,” or are not true churches, according to the controversial document from the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that was personally approved by the Pope before its July 10 release
posted by billy at 01:07 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 23, 2007 #
No disrespect to Pope Benedict XVI, the Catholic Church as an institution, or anyone who is a sincere and practicing Catholic, but the Church has doled out, what...I believe more than $2 billion dollars in compensation for sexual abuse claims in the last five years alone.
I simply feel its an odd time for the Pope to be issuing proclamations of 'defects' and 'wounds' of other Christian traditions while maintaining the Catholic Church to be the only 'true' church.
posted by McCaskey at 01:42 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 23, 2007 #
I read about this a week ago and was a bit shocked. One of the reasons he feels other churches "aren't real" is because of the way priests become priests. My ex's father was a Methodists priests and he told me something once that rings true to what the pope said.
When you become a priests, the person doing the ceremony touches you, creating a line. The original founder of the methodist church was a ordinated as a catholic priests so that lineage is passed on to Methodists. (something to do with Jesus touching one of his disciples and starting the church).
So if that is *really* a big issue, then other churches are part of that lineage.
Personally for me. Just live a good life, be nice to people, help yourself and your community to be stronger, make good decisions, and overall just be a good person.
posted by jshriver at 02:33 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 23, 2007 #
jshriver - The world would be a better place if more people did that (last paragraph of your post). I agree completely - I'm not religious at all - but I try to live my life that way.
posted by starling02 at 10:13 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 23, 2007 #
Pope sez - if you aint Catholic, you dont count!
No, that's not what Pope Benedict XVI said.
All Christian traditions except Roman Catholicism have “defects,” “wounds,” or are not true churches, according to the controversial document from the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that was personally approved by the Pope before its July 10 release
No, that is not what Pope Benedict XVI wrote. Those are the words of the blade writer, however. There is NO use of the word 'wounds' in the document issued from Rome. Read the document if you wish to speak intelligently about the topic.
Does anyone care? Does it matter that the word 'defects' is present, but the word 'wound(s)' is absent? The protestant leader Mark Hollingsworth bases his response predicated on the presence of the word 'wound' being present in the Pope's document. The blade reports, "Bishop Mark Hollingsworth of the Episcopal Diocese of Ohio said it is “encouraging” to hear Protestantism described as having a “wound.”".
Does it matter that the blade article is factually unsound? Who here is surprised that inaccuracy has raised its head in this article?
Every Christian church on this planet that is not Catholic is divided from Catholicism based upon some divergence from Catholic doctrine. Pick your topic: the Holy Trinity; the nature of Christ; the nature or importance of the Catholic sacraments; the nature of the Virgin Mary; etc. Go back, read the history of non-Catholic churches, and you will find the issue(s) of divergence that drove the establishment of any Christian religion which is not Catholic. Many of these divergences are fueled by biblical interpretation.
If you adhered to Catholicism, how would you describe a given divergence from Catholicism in terms that seek to draw the divergent toward unity? In whatever fashion you choose to express that intention, all of the variations likely sound the same. I'm thinking that there is no good way to say, "You're doing it wrong." If one is attempting evangelization from the perspective of any religion, I don't think that there is any positive way to put forth the message.
posted by AirTrainer at 10:56 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 23, 2007 #
You're correct in this sense: I read the document, and I did not see the word 'wounds' either.
But, in point of fact, the inclusion of the word 'wounds' was not strictly the work of the Blade writer, as you would leave others to believe, but it was included in an Associated Press story by someone named Nicole Winfield, and thus was picked up by dozens of media outlets nationally and internationally.
Google Pope Benedict XVI wounds and defects and you will see for yourself.
posted by McCaskey at 12:45 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 24, 2007 #
Well the use of quotations around one word in a news story is a bad habit that should never be used. The reason being is because the quotations in a story are supposed to be an actual quote from a source. In this usage it's to show a definition.
The AP writer should not have used it and the Blade writer was too lazy to change it. Not uncommon amongst writers. Many times they don't change things or do independent research because they are too busy focused on deadlines.
If you get a free chance read some press releases http://www.prnewswire.com/ then read stories about them. Too many times you'll find the story is just a retelling of the press release with very little independent information.
posted by MikeyA at 07:36 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 24, 2007 #
We're now getting into specifics and nit-picking that don't really have anything to do with the overall breadth of the Pope's comments, but I don't know why any knowledgeable writer would use the word 'wound' to try to clarify the word 'defect.' They're not close enough in meaning to do so.
Actually, I'm beginning to think the 'document' posted by AirTrainer isn't the complete 'document' or may be part of a series of 'documents.'Check this Reuters story carried in the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/10/AR2007071000395.html
Note the mention of 'wounds' directly attributed to the document.
posted by McCaskey at 09:27 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 24, 2007 #
posted by charlatan at 03:33 A.M. EST on Wed Jul 25, 2007 #
Many things will happen before Christ sets foot on this Earth a second time. His church will no longer exist as it does now; it will be fractured at best, and largely destroyed. Belief in the existence or nature of Christ will be broadly ridiculed, and various kinds of intimidation will silence the tongues of those who would otherwise speak out against those participating in the ridicule and destruction. I expect that political correctness will likely be a dynamic in the destruction.
It is easier to destroy a group of people if one can get everyone else to participate in the destruction, or at least, have no one attempt a halt to the destruction. The denigration of the people of Poland began before World War I, prospered through WWII, and continues to this day. Laughed at a Pollack joke lately?
Charlatan's decision to ridicule Pope Benedict XVI indicates his participation in the denigration and destruction of Christ's church. Though I find his 'bumper sticker' to be offensive, I will not suggest that his speech be impaired to any degree. I encourage him to renounce his prior act, but I will not contradict our Lord's wish that all of his children possess and utilize his gift of free will.
One will ultimately CHOOSE a path toward destruction, silence, or love with respect to Christ's church.
Air Force pilots are taught to actively fly in terms of situational awareness so that they may survive conflicts with enemy combatants. At the heart of situational awareness is the concept of knowing where one is now, and where one will be in the near future.
Here's the question: is your situation one of destruction, silence, or love with respect to Christ's church?
posted by AirTrainer at 06:36 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 25, 2007 #
How does the phrase go... can see the splinter in anothers eye but cannot see the beam stuck in their own? Matthew 7:3, if my google sevres me correct.
Claiming that all Christian traditions except Roman Catholicism have “defects,” “wounds,” or are not true churches epitomizes Jesus's words well. The pope can see what's wrong with the other Christian traditions, but can't see what's wrong with his own.
He should read the bible more....
posted by timault at 03:25 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 26, 2007 #
Why take any of it so seriously?
Much of religion is undermined by people getting a little too insecure and competitive with it.
Most people are good natured. Like 99% of the people, 99% of the time. The churches' marketing and sales departments might say otherwise, but they have seats to fill and tithes to collect.
posted by charlatan at 11:00 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 27, 2007 #
Ah, the sound of crickets in the distance. It is pleasing in its own way, and entirely conducive to a lengthy slumber.
Where are the posts confirming the past and present denigration of the Polish people? Where are the posts which acknowledge the discrimination, denigration, and outright murder, of God's children in the present day?
I am either surrounded by remarkably ignorant people, or I am surrounded by cowards.
Free will is a sword that cuts both ways. No one in Hell was 'sent' there. God does not send souls to Hell. Such a concept constitutes an entirely juvenile thought. Each individual has chosen, and will choose, their way into Hell, according to the execution of the will the person.
The preceding thoughts are given to you in the spirit of charity. I have every wish for you to live in Our Lord's presence for all eternity.
The choice remains your own. The opportunity remains for the duration of your existence in this world.
Set aside temporal matters. More specifically, determine what you, and only you, must do to ensure that you do not spend eternity in the company of Satan. I guarantee that Satan does not love you, and could care less about any good acts that you may have performed. If you are knocking elbows with Satan, you chose your way into his company.
The clocks ticks in a very specific and methodical way, and when you can no longer hear the tick, time is up. All choices have been made; thank you for playing.
If you haven't figured this out yet, I will state it plainly. I am not a happy-clappy, invest-my-time-in-ecumenism sort of Catholic. I will not hold your hand while you sort out if killing your unborn child is a righteous act. No one knows the day of our reckoning; but everyone needs to know the gravity of their choices.
It is an eternal decision.
posted by AirTrainer at 10:22 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 29, 2007 #
Here's the question: is your situation one of destruction, silence, or love with respect to Christ's church?
I take exception to your calling the Catholic church "Christ's church".
That's just not true.
posted by billy at 09:37 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007 #
This link says it all.
http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/Catholic.html
posted by roygbiv at 10:53 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007 #
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