New version of Toledo Talk

    July 17, 2005

HELP WANTED AD'S... - Looking through the "HELP WANTED" Ad's in the Blade to find the highest paying Job listed at $32,000.00 per year...

The SKILLS required for the Jobs Listed are skills, excell, powerpoint, organizational skills, people skills, 10 hour days, weekends, scale ranging from...$8.75 per hour to $32,000.00 per year.

I need to I a "WHINER" expressing all the "TENSIONS" I feel between the Union and Workforce, as I do have a high pay-scale... the OUTRAGE the WAGES offered and SKILLS needed for the POSITIONS listed in the Help Wanted Ad's I read today...

Help me with this...your comments are appreciated!

posted by MARIELORA to other at 1:48 P.M. EST     (45 Comments)

Comments ...

Unions have little use these days except sucking money out of struggling small businesses. Unions are now the greedy big business that they once opposed.
posted by fequalsma73 at 06:03 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 17, 2005     #

Try being a computer person with multiple certifications around here. I can't get in the door for a PC tech job because I'm overqualified and underexperienced. Industry average pay for a PC Tech I is $16.25 an hour according to Last figure I heard was $10/hr max in Toledo. Christ, you can make $9.50/hr and BENEFITS/TUITION REIMBURSEMENT at UPS for throwing packages around. What a f---ing joke this area is.
posted by anonymouscoward at 06:17 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 17, 2005     #

I think it is both, Marielora. Your situation in the union environment has serious problems, but you are not a "whiner" by venting. You remember what you have lost, that's all.

Despite fequalsma73 and his union-bashing, not all unions are corrupt monoliths. And, if unions are vampires, they are not "sucking money out of struggling small businesses" as fequalsma73 claims. By and large, they tend to organize in larger organizations. If a unionized small business is struggling, the first place the blame will fall is on the union, rather than on the market pressures or management's bad decisions.

Are there bloated, top-heavy unions? Certainly. Do unions sometimes protect the wrong employees? Yes.

This is no reason to bash unions, or to call for their abolition. Much the same argument against excess and corruption could be said about undesirable corporate behavior (corporate accounting scandals, stratospheric CEO salaries, monopolies, cartels).

As Marielora noted, there are very few jobslisted in today's Blade, or in any other major metropolitan daily, that pay well enough for a person to support a family. Many employers, through competitive global pressures and/or desires by shareholders for high stock value, are forced to pay lower wages with few or no benefits.

Until this current obsession with finding the cheapest labor ends, you will see more of the same.

Or worse.

posted by historymike at 07:47 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 17, 2005     #

I was looking through the "Help Wanted" Ad's helping my daughter, she's looking for employment...she quit her job...

My daughter felt her only HOPE for a decent wage was the Railroad ($20.84 per hour), she went to West Virgina for the classes, graduated 3rd in her class :)...worked in the East Broadway Yard for 6 Weeks, on the Road for 6 Weeks...she said it was the "Easiest Job, she's ever had"...well...she decided "Money" isn't what it's about for her...she MISSED my grandson so much, when on the road... (she is a Single Mother), sometimes she would be gone 3 straight days...layed up in a Hotel in Chicago...worrying about my grandson and missing him so...she QUIT!!!

She told me...she was happier and my grandson too...when they were "POOR"...

My daughter would love to have my job, regular hours, decent wages...she told JEEP Workers are "Whiners"...if we would like to know "STRESS" be her generation for a Month...she said..."we all work 2 jobs, with no healthcare"!

She got me thinking...and...reading the "Help Wanted" Ad's too...I am afraid...of what my daughter and other's are dealing with...I am thinking if this the time my grandson is an adult...there will be only the RICH AND POOR...

I have been very fortunate...and...I believe Jobs as mine will not exist much generation being...the last of the golden ones...

posted by MARIELORA at 08:41 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 17, 2005     #

When I was your daughters age I was a single mom, I worked two jobs and had no health care either. I paid my own bills and lived in an apartment with my child. Your daughter might want to think of getting at least a two year degree. You simply can not find a decent job without some sort of schooling unless you know someone who knows someone.
As far as union go? I have little or no faith in them. Especially the one at Jeep. I dont work there but my husband does and all I see them do is take a lot of money out of his check.

posted by swantucky at 09:14 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 17, 2005     #

Hi swantucky, thankyou for your advice for my daughter, she has tried very hard...also, thankyou for reassuring me with my thoughts on my Union.
posted by MARIELORA at 09:18 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 17, 2005     #

I think a lot of companies skip the newspaper and advertise their job openings for computer-related jobs at Monster or Dice or other such sites.
posted by jr at 10:01 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 17, 2005     #

anonymous coward,

I have a question for you, why do computer experts feel that they have a job skill that requires that they get paid major dollars. I've been in on interviews for my company for tech designers and everyone that comes in demands 6 figures. They get turned down right away because it is an outrageous demand, because electrical engineers could handle it just as easily.

I am not trying to be start trouble on line, but I really wonder if there is that much training or that special of a skill there that requires the need to get such high salaries.

To me, it's simple supply and demand economics, in the '70s-'90s there were not many computer experts so they could demand a huge salary. Now an entire generation is of age and in the working world and grew up on computers. The need isn't there anymore.

posted by Kevin at 10:49 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 17, 2005     #

jr, thankyou for the Websites, I found several jobs within a 20 mile radius!!! I e-mailed all of them to my daughter...

Who needs the Blade's Help Wanted Ad's!!!

posted by MARIELORA at 10:58 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 17, 2005     #

I remember shortly after the place I'd worked at for close to 22 years-closed, after being around it toledo for 100 years. I was driving down the street one day, and saw on one side of the street, they were building yet another strip mall. I thought to myself, still more low-paying, part-time jobs with no benefits. I then looked across the street. On the right, they were building still more new condos or fancy apartment buildings. Rent about 5-6 hundred a month, no doubt. I thought then, "How long can this go on in this country?" and that was about twenty years ago I thought that. And it continues to go on. I don't know where all those people with money are coming from, because I sure as hell don't know any of them.
posted by Foolkiller at 03:30 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

Most companies that want higher-level educational requirements don't advertise in help-wanted portions of the newspaper. There are too many placement firms that will pre-screen applicants and provide other services that save the companies time and money and get them directly to qualified candidates to interview. Some actually do the first interviews and provide a select group of individuals for the company to meet.

Companies are also requiring more skills and education than in the past. The days when you could get out of high school and get a good (union) job are pretty much gone. Even today, those individuals with computer skills, like another poster said, are more prevalent and will continue to be as our kids grow up with intense computer knowledge.

Actually, the County's one-stop for employment, The Source, has more job openings posted there than in the want ads. They can help most people, but not all.

Marielora - have your daughter take a look at demand occupations...nursing-type positions. There's even paid training available - it's not easy work, but may be more to her scheduling needs.

posted by intrepid at 09:38 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

Good points, jr and intrepid. It has been a long time since I looked for a job in the paper. Most of my recent gigs have been through contacts in my far-flung network, or just showing up and sticking my resume in the right person's face/mailbox/hand.

Intrepid also hits upon another important point - knowing the growth potential of a given field. Prospects in health-care continue to improve, as the nation gets grayer (not historymike, who will never age - no way, not gonna happen to me).

Programming is lousy now, as companies keep shipping these jobs to India and China. With the Internet, you don't need to be on-site anymore, and there are plenty of educated techies overseas who will work for 1/4 of what US programmers make.

posted by historymike at 10:48 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

To the employer in Bowling Green wanting someone for technical support:

Thank you very much for listing your job in the state's SCOTI system.

Thank you for making it so I have to go to a JFS office to apply. It sure is nice to wait for half an hour for them to clear out all the other people ahead of me.

Thank you for marking your entry as requiring a bachelor's degree. This excludes me, even though I'm nearing completion of an associate's degree and despite the fact that I have 5 CompTIA certifications, a Microsoft certification, several Linux certifications, and others. Why you require a BACHELOR'S DEGREE for technical support (a position which many locations hire HS or college kids for) is beyond me. It also baffles the mind why you require it for a PART-TIME position.

See, I could do that job, but between you and the SCOTI system, I cannot apply at the JFS office because it locks me out, nor can I find out your identity to apply directly.

Thank you for fueling my resentment towards SCOTI and employers in this area.

Hugs and kisses,

posted by anonymouscoward at 12:39 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

A quick search at Monster turns up an interesting computer programming job opening at a Toledo company called Internet Payment Exchange.

"... seeking a software engineer with a specialization in LAMP environments. This person would help in the design and development of software that runs on our suite of Linux-based server products. This position requires knowledge of shell scripting, PHP, MySql and a general knowledge of Linux Systems."

A company in Toledo using LAMP programmers. That's pretty good.

posted by jr at 12:47 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

AC - you don't have to go to JFS to use SCOTI - that's why the Commissioners set up the one-stop, The Source...corner of Michigan & 14th and it's anything BUT a "government office."

You should be able to register there very easily with little to no wait.

I'd be interested in your experience there - if you go...

posted by intrepid at 01:00 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

The story so far:

I came across a listing in the SCOTI system. I'm registered in there, and it's set to email me weekly about open positions

PROBLEM #1: This job which I'm interested in has a "creation" date of 6/30. However, the job itself hasn't been mentioned in any of the two previous weekly emails I have received. I want to know why. If their system is broken, it should be fixed -- or they're wasting tax dollars on it and screwing unemployed people over.

This listing says "To apply for this job, please contact a SCOTI-access office." Meaning a "job store" or JFS-adjacent office. So I do so, to my friendly Ottawa County office (where, coincidentally, an employee once told me she believes "they" keep this area "intentionally depressed".)

I go out and wait for everyone ahead of me to get done and try to apply. The nice person said the job was in Bowling Green, read the description, and then asked if I had a bachelor's degree. I don't. He said I can't apply for it.

PROBLEM #2: This job is PART-TIME TECHNICAL SUPPORT. Why is a bachelor's degree needed for part-time technical support job that any college kid can do?

So at this point I have no contact information and therefore no way to even TRY to apply for it (worst that can happen is that I get turned down, right?).

Now we are into my adventures since the last post. I decide hey, screw the Ottawa County office, I'll go elsewhere. So I go to the Sandusky County "Job Store", where they give me the information, no problem.

Since this job was listed over two weeks ago, I try to call the person listed at the 800-number listed. The number I was given feeds into the JFS Unemployment Processing office. I don't have an extension, only a name, and nobody really knows how to feed me into the right phone so I can ask this contact if I should bother faxing my resume in.

The people at the unemployment processing office feed me a number for the Wood County JFS/one-stop jobs place. Where I get voice mail and leave a nice long message about the saga so far and what the hell is up with this run-around.

So suffice to say that so far today, I've been told I can't apply for a job that I am otherwise perfectly well qualified to do, then given contact info for the job by a different office, when said contact info leads me into a totally different place than I should be, and I still don't know what the deal is with this job.

Yes, you can bet I'm really ticked at the sheer amount of run-around I've had to go through so far.

posted by anonymouscoward at 03:19 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

I heard Alltel's still hiring, a bunch of the former Convergys people have gone over there. I applied but they only want full timers, which with my younger one cannot do. Granted the pay is not as high as Convergys was but there's not alot out there right now for even level one support let alone higher.
posted by psyche777 at 04:21 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

Sorry AC... every county's different and they've got bigger issues in Sandusky, Ottawa, etc...than I thought!

SCOTI system is only as good as the users, which is why your posting says an earlier date - it probably took that long for government employee to input it...

Too bad you're not in Lucas, they've at least done some improvements and last year (per their press conference last week) they'd placed 2000 people.

posted by intrepid at 04:31 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

Thankyou, all of of you for your is so much appreciated the time you all took giving your advice and suggestions...thankyou, so much! My daughter is amazed...that people we do not on the Internet, offered more suggestions and leads than anyone, anywhere!

anyomouscoward...Something VERY GOOD is going to come your way...GOOD THINGS don't come EASY...Good Luck to you...

physc777...I now realize it's YOU...I ordered a Tank Shirt from your Website and I LOVE IT...did you design this yourself? I have received many compliments on it...I LOVE IT...liberal thinking...

posted by MARIELORA at 05:24 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

HistoryMike...Many thanks to have quite a gift of writing and understanding...thankyou...for the time you have taken answering my Posts and e-mails!
posted by MARIELORA at 05:26 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

If I wanted to work in a call center, taking calls all day, I'd shoot myself in the head first.

I fix stuff, hands on preferably. And I make sure they stay fixed, and take pride in my work.

I'm not customer service and I can't stand dealing with people who were lied to, or think they were lied to, by the sales force. Maybe if they made the marketing and legal departments work customer service one day every week, products wouldn't suck so much.

posted by anonymouscoward at 06:24 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

anonymouscoward...I had written in an earlier post my daughter worked for the Railroad, being on the Road was making her physically and emotionally ill, separated from my grandson...

Just a suggestion...possibly being on the Road wouldn't be hard on you...Apply online, Marshall Universities, the School is in West Virgina, with's like $3,000.00 that you can apply for a low interest School Loan for...CCX Railroad, Conductor, Wages start $20.84 per hour...but, you're on the Road...always on the Road...

My daughter said the School is not EASY...but, she also said the JOB was the EASIEST JOB she has had!!!

Just trying to help...

posted by MARIELORA at 07:03 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

I like trains, but I also know people who work for CSX and they tell me CSX is not in the best of shape. The alternative is Norfolk Southern, but their training takes place in Atlanta. I don't have $$ for either, and it's pretty much time to wait for the kids to go back to college before I will really get lucky finding a job around here.

I hate this area, and I wish all the pigf---ing politicians and the consultants they hire would spontaneously combust, because I'm sick and tired of hearing "oh we need to do this and that and the other thing in order to get (high-tech) jobs in the area" BUT NOTHING EVER HAPPENS.

UT "tech corridor". Nope.
"silicorn valley". Nope.
Lower tuition. HAHHAHAHHAH nope.
A night life in Toledo or BG or somewhere. NOPE!
Jeep and their suppliers. Well if you and I and a pile of other people had our way, Jeep would actually HIRE PEOPLE instead of overworking the ones they've got. But Carty and the city of Toledo let slide Jeep's promises.

Oh, and don't forget the whole Southwyck fiasco, the continual arena and ampitheatre fiascos, the coke plant fiasco, and all the other ones I'm forgetting -- and that's just around the Toledo area... here in Port Clinton we have the continual joke of an industrial park, the tourist trade (CLOSED NOVEMBER 1 - APRIL 1), along with a pile of other jokes running the show.

posted by anonymouscoward at 07:35 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

What has me upset about the Supplier Jobs at Jeep...First dibs on these Jobs are going to Jeep Employee's with 30 get this...they have to RETIRE FROM JEEP...COLLECT FULL PENSION...THEN...WORK FOR ONE OF THE SUPPLIER'S WITH FULL WAGES AND PENSION...what's left for our children with such an arrangement...or, for that matter...YOU!

It makes me SICK!!! Many of my co-workers are going for much GREED!

You know...a 19 year old young man said to me a couple weeks ago...Auto Manufacturing is a Third World Country's going to happen...there will be no Auto Factories, just as there are NO CAMERA'S, TELEVISIONS, etc., made in this Country anylonger. He's the way it has to be...get products cheaper made in Third World Countries!

It all scares me!

I was just trying to help suggesting the Railroad...

posted by MARIELORA at 07:53 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

(offers a/c an unused bottle of Prozac).

Why not take the plunge and become a full-time student at UT or BG? You can get loans over and above your tuition to help with living expenses. That way you can get a BA in something that will open a few doors.

I went back in 2000 to get the BA I never got around to finishing in the 1980s. While it was a struggle at first, things are starting to happen for me. Many opportunities have appeared that would not have been possible for me without a BA, let alone an MA or PhD.

Plus, you can't beat the interest rates on the student loans. And as long as you are taking at least 12 credit hours a year, you don't have to make payments.

If you stay in school forever, you'll never make any payments.


Anyways, it's a thought. It beats getting stuck in a series of dead-end jobs.

posted by historymike at 08:02 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

HistoryMike, you are too FUNNY...unused bottle of Prozac!
posted by MARIELORA at 08:18 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 18, 2005     #

Marie, why thank you and yes I created the design myself for the logo. I did not draw the cartoon of me though, a friend of mine did that.

Glad you liked it, I've been happy with their quality too


if AC doesn't want the prozac I'll take it - lol might make me less incorrigible...wait...with my luck it would make me even more psychotic...I'll get back to you on that one....

posted by psyche777 at 12:58 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

Psyche, you never did comment on my statement on another thread that I suffered (er, worked) at the Great God Convergys myself. You sounded like you might've been a team leader there, but doubt that, if you were part-time. It paid me well, but I despised it there. Another boondoggle perpetrated on the town by greedy corporations. Tax abatements by Carty & council, stayed in town 'til-what? about 6 months after said abatements expired?? All their stuff, from computers to furniture, was leased, so that should have been the writing on the wall (nothing to move). I know the city sued them, but they got a pittance compared to what they gave them over several years time.
posted by Foolkiller at 02:39 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

Prozac and I do not mix AT ALL.
posted by anonymouscoward at 10:06 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

"... here in Port Clinton we have the continual joke of an industrial park, the tourist trade (CLOSED NOVEMBER 1 - APRIL 1), along with a pile of other jokes running the show."

So AC, I'm guessing you won't enjoy WNWO's week-long "Our Town" series that features Port Clinton. If you look at CH 24's summary for each day's story about Port Clinton, they seem to talk about everything but the town.

Ohio Air National Guard, Marblehead Lighthouse, National Shooting Championships, heading out onto the lake for walleye, ghost walks through Port Clinton, Marsh's Edge, and a 1929 Ford Tri-Motor airliner.

What a fluff piece. Oh gee, look who sponsored this series:

"NBC 24 and the Port Clinton Area Chamber of Commerce presents another great "Our Town" series."

No such thing as independent journalism anymore among the MSM. How much did the Port Clinton Chamber of Commerce pay WNWO for this infomercial?

AC, you need to get a video camera and provide the real story. Make your own documentary about Port Clinton. Coffee shops, bars, and other little places might allow you to show it. But beware. If you raise the hackles on a disapproving neck, you might end up the Ottawa County gulag like DuBois.

posted by jr at 10:49 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

anonymouscoward & kevin,

Your posts disgust me.

anonymouscoward- You have quite the attitude. I am guessing it comes out in your interviews, which I think is your real problem. Certifications do not really mean much to most employers. I am a programmer/analyst and am pretty ignorant when it comes to the physical end of the spectrum, but I guarantee that I could study and pass all of those comptia cert exams. In hiring techies, I have found many who have look great on paper, but struggle when you put them to a real life test. EITHER TAKE AN ENTRY LEVEL JOB AND MOVE UP OR MOVE OUT OF TOLEDO. At least here the cost of living is low enough to survive on a lower wage.

Kevin- I know plenty of developers and technical analysts who would love to make a fraction of a six-figure salary. I honestly think you are making things up. And if you don't know why many of us in this field (with experience) are asking for above average salaries, it is because we add value to the companies we work for. Many of us know our users' jobs better than they know their own. We have to in order to build efficiencies in automation.

I was laid off from my last position, and now I am making a little more than half of what I did then. Oh well. There are children starving to death all over the world everyday. I will just keep driving my old civic and not eat out very often and still consider myself lucky.

posted by nick44 at 11:40 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

jr, I can't believe you just suggested that I Michael Moore Port Clinton.

nick44, what entry level job? I guess nowadays operating the cash register at McDonalds counts as both high-tech and manufacturing, eh?

And as for thinking it's my attitude coming out in interviews, well, it must be psychic given that I can't even *get* an interview anywhere. And it's due in part to people like you who piss on certification and claim as you do that a day with a braindump off the internet would allow anyone to pass. For the record, at least two of my CompTIA certs were in BETA when I took the tests -- therefore nobody knew what would be on them and there certainly weren't any books or materials availble for study. Same for my Linux Professional Institute certifications (level 2, baby!)

I certainly don't claim that my certifications make me any smarter or better, but they're supposed to count for something and "get my foot in the door", which they aren't doing. The only things I know are that which I have encountered -- the suckage of Windows, the continual lack of knowledge and education of the typical user, overly cheap hardware causing problems, and vendors that suck.

And to bring this back to the subject of "HELP WANTED ADS", why don't these people list their company names in the ad? "Fax resume to 419-NXX-YYZZ" in this age of identity theft? Plus the people placing the ads and doing the hiring end up doing what I was bitching about earlier -- wording their ads to require all sorts of degrees and certifications for AN ENTRY LEVEL POSITION! Technical support does not require a bachelor's degree. It does not require a MCSE, a CCNP, a CNE, or a Level 2 *Administration* certification. However, these are all things I've encountered in ads, and because the people listing the jobs and doing the hiring come from HR and not the MIS/IT department, well, you're essentially asking for highly qualified people and they're going to ask you for high pay in return. Me, I'd knock $10 off that tech support job and be damn well happy.

You won't take a risk on me because I'm cocky and have an "attitude", and I'm cocky and have an attitude because I figure I can do the job, and do it a damn sight better, but nobody will let me have a chance at proving it. Circular problem, you see.

posted by anonymouscoward at 12:18 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

Michael Moore? I didn't imply that. Note my comment. I said, "... provide the real story. Make your own documentary ..." I didn't say create a piece of fiction.
posted by jr at 12:43 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #


Sorry I have a bad habit of not going back to threads so I missed your Convergys comment.

Nope I was not a team leader I was a troublemaker, though I was floor support when they needed a fill in. Supposedly I was lengedary as a troublesome person according to some management there but I dispute those rumors - lol

I was one of the early bunch as it was just getting started and I loved the job, had some management problems but the actual job itself? Looked forward to it, and I miss it. I met alot of awesome people, considered offers of management or instructing but I liked part time. Most of my original class either quit or moved up, but I was happy where I was. It was my daily mission to take crabby unhappy people and get them back on line.

I went on leave because of some health issues related to me then my father became ill and died, during that time period the shake up there started. So I never got to go back.

posted by psyche777 at 12:50 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

What part of Fahrenheit 9/11 was fiction?
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:24 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

Who said I was talking about F 9/11? Do you always jump to conclusions without all the facts? Oh wait, you do. Hey, I was just trying to help. If Port Clinton has problems, then bring them up. Otherwise, like nick44 said.

The biggest barrier people have with finding work is themselves. Can't move because I've got family here. Can't move because the kids are in school. Weak. You go where the jobs are. Columbus is still hot for IT work. If you can't find an IT job in Columbus, then you better change fields.

Have you thought about starting your own PC Tech Support business? A lot of small businesses don't have IT staffs, but they need help with their computers, or they need guidance in how to improve business by using computers.

posted by jr at 02:12 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

jr, your advice to AC is going to fall on deaf has all the other advice on this thread.

Based upon his comments in other areas and here, I can only conclude that he's one of those people who would rather blame others for his lack of accomplishments than try to do something about it. The whole - why do they require a degree for entry level - argument clearly indicates he does not understand the changing employment world.

How prevalent are the certifications he has? If everyone has them, then he's not unique in his skills.

Some of the comments here make me wonder if he believes he's "entitled" to a job...

He's already identified his problem..."I can't get in the door for a PC tech job because I'm overqualified and underexperienced."

Maybe he should take some of those positions for which he's overqualified and get the experience employers seem to be looking for. Maybe he needs to sell himself to companies with a "look what you get - all my skills - just give me some experience and I'll make a commitment to stay with you x years" approach.

He then says..."Industry average pay for a PC Tech I is $16.25 an hour according to Last figure I heard was $10/hr max in Toledo. Christ, you can make $9.50/hr and BENEFITS/TUITION REIMBURSEMENT at UPS for throwing packages around."

Kind of reminds me of the Africa argument...people starving in Africa because they can't grow food. You can't grow food in a desert, so leave the desert! (I know - it's harsh and maybe uncalled-for, but it fits the argument.)

So, AC, what do you do for a job while you're looking for a tech position? Just curious...

posted by intrepid at 02:45 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

Gotta agree about the bootstraps argument, jr. I have been building a little side business in editing that is beginning to pay some decent money. I started out taking any work, even proofing Comp I papers of undergraduates for cheap $$ at UT.

I am not getting rich, but I make a couple hundred a month right now as a freelance editor, and I am getting a lot of repeat business for work that I can do almost anywhere.

With as many techno-deficient people that I run into, there must be a heckuva market for contractors to make some extra cash providing tech support on the side.

The more you can throw on your CV, the better you look to future employers.

And, as much as you are hesitant to take that plunge into a 4-year university, the BA is one of those barriers that will be tough to bypass. Rightly or wrongly, many companies use the college diploma as a tool to weed out candidates.

You can rail against this all you want, but it won't change anything. Today's BA is the 21st century equivalent of what a HS diploma used to mean.

Finally, even a McDonald's develops people from within. Take a crappy entry-level job someplace, and use your status as an employee to find out everything you can about their IT departnment. Maybe you could springboard from a flunky job at, say, Home Depot into something in your field of expertise.

posted by historymike at 03:03 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

I've had a few employers in non IT fields flat out tell me they won't hire me because "you'll just run off when you find an IT job when the economy improves" or something like that.

If that's not depressing, I don't know what is.

posted by anonymouscoward at 03:43 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

OK A.C., I did not mean to insult you. From your comments I can see that you are a smart person and you know your stuff. I guess the point I was trying to make to you is that life isn't fair, it isn't supposed to be fair, and it will never be anywhere close to fair. Trust me, as a young man, I would look at my bosses as idiots who had no right making three times what I did. It was that kind of attitude that held me back.

I do not mean to be judgemental in the comment about interviews, but having interviewed technicians in my life I have found that the majority of those who hire look at much more than pure skills. Technicians can not survive without people skills. You don't want to come off as a know-it-all, and you never want to convey the attitude that you just want to be left alone with a piece of equipment to fix. Ofcourse, you say that you haven't even gotten in the door yet. That is not necessarily your own fault.

You may not find what you want right away, but if it is anywhere close, jump on it. Then kick ass everyday you come to work. Be the best guy who has ever held that position. Blow everyone away as good as you claim to be. You never know where that kind of strategy might take you...

posted by nick44 at 05:00 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

Well, in the interest of full and honest disclosure, I have been Officially Diagnosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder, which is at least part of why I don't get along with people very well at all.

I am more than happy to work my ass off, as long as I don't have to play Silly People Games. Overtime, evenings, weekends, holidays, 3am emergencies? I could really care less WHEN I work, and as long as ends meet I could pretty much care less about HOW MUCH I got paid, but I get really tired really quickly with how people are generally greedy, inconsistent, and hypocritical. And the continual line of "life's not fair" out of people really gets on my nerves as well -- yeah, it might not be fair, BUT YOU CAN TRY TO MAKE IT FAIR INSTEAD OF "DEALING WITH IT" OR IGNORING THE INJUSTICE!

The big irony is that y'all are ripping me for making excuses, but you make similar excuses for yourselves, hidden behind "life's not fair, it'll never be fair, and no matter what I do I can't make a single bit of difference".

I recognize my irony and hypocrisy, it's just that I don't know what to do with it.

posted by anonymouscoward at 05:23 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

Hi Marie, you ask if you're a whiner, yes you are and so am I (lol)! No you're not a whiner; it aches you to not believe in your Union Representation, they didn't care about you when you were displaced with the transistion of North Cove and now, well, they outright lied to you.

If we cannot depend on them to look out for our best interests, represent us, then why are they there?

The job market, is bad, was reading today that Hewitt and Packard are cutting back some fourteen thousand employees and the pension plan.

It is sad very sad what wages are today, I hired at Jeep in 1985, seems I was making $16.00 an hour then; there's no way anyone can live on $8.75 an hour or $10.00, don't know how people are doing it.

anonymouscoward, don't let the posters frustrate you; all of them are just trying to help you out, each has their own way of doing it, wish I knew of something, somewhere that is hiring to offer a suggestion, I'm sorry I don't. Most important, don't stop believing in yourself!

posted by ajeepthing at 07:20 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

A.C.- I like the way you think. Funny how so many of the truly intelligent can be so easilly diagnosed as having some kind of disorder. It comes at a price doesn't it.

I don't want to get too off topic here, but let me tell you something about myself. Years ago I finished a B.A. in Sociology & Pol. Sci. with the intention of getting an advanced degree in one of the Social Sciences. My attempt at a Masters lasted less than one semester as I fouind that my beliefs as a Democratic Socialist would be studiously ignored. (Yes I know that is an excuse) Instead of following what I believed in, I decided that I was tired of being poor, and went back to school to finish a B.S. in Computer Science. So here I am now, probably a little better off financially with the decision I made, but not really believing in what I do. I love my job, but.... I can still open a newspaper, or just look around at what happens in Toledo and know this isn't right. It's too late for me now A.C. I have a wife and two children who depend on me. And there are thousands of people out there who made the same choice. We have little time for political activism anymore- too many responsibilities. That is what keeps this system going my friend. We are all too tired when we get home from work to get mad that are laws are written by Proctor and Gamble or G.M. The baby is screaming, your daughter needs a ride, or your wife's car just broke down. Which reminds me. I have got to go. Good Luck to you.

posted by nick44 at 08:20 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 19, 2005     #

CONVERGYS!!! Wow! I hadn't thought about them since I sued them for union busting and won! Six months after they paid me off they were gone from Toledo. They knew a union was coming in if they stayed!

Sorry psyche77, I think I got the Oscar when it came to rabble-rousing and troublemaking! Enough so they marched me out of the building and refused to let me back in! Had to produce ID and wait in the foyer to get my last paycheck!

What a company! The employees there were some great folks, but the management techniques were akin to Communism in its highest form. They violated so many labor laws that it made my head spin. The 'upper powers' always thought that we (the employees) could never be smart enough to figure it out and that we were in need of a job bad enough that we would take it. I wound up taking the bullet, but made my point. Lots of the gang weren't in a position to be able to create such a stir and I can understand that. Still stung just a little, though!

Yeah - they took all the 'goodies' offered to them by the city, stretched them to the max and then bailed out. Not uncommon for low-life companies.

Glad to see you survived Convergys Hell!

posted by DoknowDocare at 08:43 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 21, 2005     #

Yeah, it was sheer hell all right. The most stress I've ever been under on a daily basis of any job I've ever had. I honestly don't know how I lasted for over two years. If you'd like to see the bitching post for those who are still employed there, go to :

They open their call centers in desperate towns full of desperate people. Milk the community for all it's worth, and then leave like a thief in the night-which they are.

posted by Foolkiller at 02:49 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 05, 2005     #

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