Nice work, Lisa, in getting the word out about the Toledo Troglodyte.
More opining about McCloskey on my blog.
posted by historymike at 03:25 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Fox updated to confirm the indictment at 3:01 something...I'm not sure who listed it first Fox or the Toledo Blade, but they were pretty close. When I went to confirm the Fox item I saw the Blade had it as breaking news.
WTOL is now listing it on their website and so is WTVG.
I'm sure Fox will have more at 4 as well as the other news channels at 5
:-)
I'd also state for the record, he is innocent until proven guilty.
posted by psyche777 at 03:32 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
He may be found not guilty of extortion, but he will always be a Troglodyte.
:-}
posted by historymike at 03:37 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Well, I'll always be Trouble but I still try to remember the whole innocent until proven guilty thing.
Now back to my fish...
Good thing they are fat free..
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 03:40 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
I was ashamed he represented my district in South Toledo. Then to see him as an At-Large councilman really #%*!@% me off!
I can see it now...Elect Bob McClosky for his new district...the Jail Ward!
posted by KraZyKat at 03:41 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Fox just stated that McCloskey has contacted Rob Ludeman and is stepping down as Chair of the Economic Committee. Rob Ludeman is going to take the Chair position at this point. No confirmation as to if that is permanent or temporary.
News conference is being held or will be held by McCloskey's attorney.
posted by psyche777 at 04:26 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
I'm curious to see how much upper fold space the Blade uses for this story over the next six months…
posted by lloyd at 05:04 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
For those of us who don't know what a "Troglodyte" is, these are the definitions from Wikipedia:
-In archaeology, a troglodyte is any member of a primitive tribe of cave-dwelling people (from the Greek troglodytai, from trogle, "a hole" and dyein, "to enter").
-More recently troglodyte is used to describe a technophobic person; i.e. someone who prefers to hide from the realities of modern life.
-Troglodyte may also be an elitist pejorative term to refer to non-elites, or those viewed as being of subordinate or inferior culture and belief.
-Troglodytes is a genus of wrens in the family Troglodytidae.
-Troglodytes was the original genus for the gorilla, now considered invalid.
-Pan troglodytes is the Linnaean nomenclature for the species of the Common Chimpanzee.
-Derived from that term, troglodytes are cave-dwelling humanoid monsters in fantasy games such as Dungeons & Dragons or Heroes of Might and Magic (where they look like lizards) and will also appear in related fiction.
-In France, it refers to modern-day persons living in caves carved out into soft rock. In 1900, 5% of the French population was living in such dwellings.
-In the classic Star Trek series episode The Cloud Minders, a derived term, Troglyte, is used to describe the members of the oppressed mining class who toil on the planet Ardana.
I would like to ask: which of the abovementioned definitions was intended for Toledo Troglyte? Seems to me he could meet several of the definitions.
lol
posted by lloyd at 05:12 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
I prefer calling him Billboard Bob, if I'm joking around because Toledo Troglodyte to me is the same as calling Frank "So Lousy" rather than his given name and I don't really think that's funny.
Not to mention that during the whole Noe thing people got way out of hand with the insults, it'd be nice to think we could rise above that this time. I know the temptation to have a field day with it is out there....
but I'll still give you a :-) Lloyd...
posted by psyche777 at 05:20 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Thanks for the :-) Lisa, I thought you missed my last comment. Your smilies make me smile...lol
posted by lloyd at 05:25 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Bob really turned me off with his adamance of the Sports Arena location, although I can understand his intentions. His intentions, in my opinion, didn't take the best interest of the city into consideration.
posted by lloyd at 05:29 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Nope, I saw it but I was waiting for the right chance.
I feel more strongly about what I think was a violation of the City Charter by running for the at large seat. Even though I realize he did so because the City Law Director "approved" it. The fact that this civil trial was filed in 2004 and it took this long for the Lucas County Prosecuter's office to look at it also bothers me. What he was indicted for if he is convicted was wrong of him, and I'm not excusing his behavior but at least from what it appears anyway, he didn't try to personally profit from it.
It also bothers me that the majority of City Council agreed to him being the Chair of the Economic Committee under the circumstances.
You know Lloyd, now that you wrote that everytime I :-) I'm going to remember that.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 05:57 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
I can't remember the last time I agreed with Frank Szollosi but I heard him on the news tonight say that if democrats were going to be consistent, then we needed to call for McCloskey to step down. I agree! We have no credibility when we go after Taft and Petro and Bush and then turn a blind eye to Bob.
McCloskey should resign immediately (guilty or not); he's been indicted and he is an embarrasment to Toledo. And the democrats on council should appoint Toledo Attorney Ben Konop who is running for commissioner. He has some good ideas and the fresh face and energy Toledo needs. Give him a couple terms on council and he'll be ready for the next step.
I'm not sure if anybody has noticed this about the Toledo At-Large Councilman: Phillip Copeland, served one year and wants to be commissioner; McCloskey - indicted; Sobczak - a democrat who voted republican after his buddy Bob didn't get enough votes to be President of Council; Sarantau who is looking to run for a county office this year right after getting elected; Szollosi - I don't need to say anymore then that; and Betty Schultz who has her own problems with the Noe scandal. It's a real shame that fresh faces like David Schultz, Bob Vasquez, and Karen Shananan didn't win.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 06:31 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
I'm not sure if Ben would even be interested in a City Council spot, but I would like to see those who not only wanted to run but had voter support be appointed for any open at large district seats.
As someone who likes Frank, I also agree his statement tonight was a very valid one.
I also share your wish that Dave Schultz, Bob Vasquez, and Karen Shananan would have been chosen rather than some of those who were elected.
posted by psyche777 at 06:47 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
We can replace him with another union boss from the old buddy network. We need a few more of those on council.
posted by Toledolaw05 at 06:51 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
I can go along with Vasquez or Shananan for the city council spot should it open up. I threw out Konop because I think he is a bright young man with a lot of potential and I just worry that with him and Maumee Mayor Tim Wagener in the race for commissioner, they'll split the vote and Phillip Copeland will win the nomination only to get clobbered by Maggie Thurber or George Sarantau in November.
Very funny toledolaw05...don't give them any ideas. If they thought that Phillip Copeland was even remotely qualified and they appointed him, who knows who they will come up with this time.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 07:27 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
In commenting about the whole situation, it is a sad day for Toledo when a city councilperson is indicted for bribery. Makes you think of places like China where this type of thing is done as a way of doing business, something that we take for granted. The thing I hated about this whole thing was Bob's comment something to the effect, this is the way business is done. That right there means the surface has only been scratched.
We will be watching the trial closely.
posted by chrismyers at 07:44 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
So McCloskey finally got stung! Couldn't have happened soon enough, but too bad that Bob Vasquez has had to sit out on hte sidelines while all of this bluster took place.
Bob Vasquez, finishing #7 SHOULD be the logical choice for the Democratic Party, but, as I used LOGICAL and Democratic Party in the same sentence, all is null and void. Unfortunately for him, he was an 'A' Team candidate so Carty will overlook him to pick 'one of his own kind.'
What a bunch of clowns running this town! Will it ever get better or will we have to go through another Carty-fit until he gets the person, the yes-man, that he wants???
posted by limedrops911 at 07:49 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Won't Ben Konop be running for city council down in Findlay, Lima, or over in Mansfield?
posted by MemyselfandI at 08:16 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
It didn't make the news tonight but a lawsuit against Bob McCloskey and Betty Shultz was filed by Dave Schulz today.
It should be covered on Monday but those of you who come here? Know in advance. He's asking for both of them to be ousted from office for violating the City of Toledo Charter:
No person shall serve more than three (3) consecutive four(4) year terms on the Council; except that the two (2) year termserved by district Council members elected in 2001 in order tocommence ‘staggered terms’ will not count against the permittedtotal of three (3) consecutive terms or be considered an‘interruption’ for purposes of determining the number ofconsecutive four (4) year terms a person has served.
As well as providing citation as to why he has rightful standing to bring this case forward.
posted by psyche777 at 09:50 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Bob, Bob, Bob
The citizens need to help out our politicians, a lot of them have lost their way.
posted by jdmsbyrd at 10:18 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Lest anyone think Dave is piling on? He and his legal staff have been working on re-filing the lawsuit before today's indictment. It was just the miracle of timing that they both happened on the same day.
Realistically from a PR standpoint, had he known the indictment was going to come down he would have been better to somehow rush it in yesterday.
posted by psyche777 at 10:37 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
John, I'd love it if you would email me if you get a chance there are a few things related to the last meeting we went too and some new stuff you might be interested in.
posted by psyche777 at 11:08 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
psyche, A lawsuit of such nature was filed in december and thrown out by the supreme court of ohio. The city law director also approved of them running for at-large bids. If there is a new suit, it will likely be thrown out as well on precedent. I guess they see representing a district different from an at-large position. Then again, our state supreme court is elected, so they might oppose term limits themselves.
posted by junta330 at 12:05 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
My bad, 13abc reported earlier that it was thrown out by the supreme court of ohio. It was thrown out by the 6th district court of appeals. Here's the opinion if you're curious.
PIETRYKOWSKI, J.
This matter is an original action in quo warranto filed by relator David Schulz to bar respondent Robert McCloskey from assuming the position of at-large member of the Toledo City Council or ousting him from that position if he is sworn in to take that position.
In his complaint, Schulz alleges that on November 8, 2005, respondent was elected by the electors of Toledo, Ohio, to the position of at-large council member of the Toledo City Council but that his election is void and illegal in that it is in violation of the term limits provision of the Toledo City Charter. Specifically, relator alleges that respondent has won election to three four-year terms as the District 3 council member, and that had he chosen to serve out his current term through 2007, he would have accrued the total of 3 consecutive terms and 12 years on council authorized by the Charter. Respondent, however, chose to abandon the remaining two years of this third term and seek election to a fourth four-year term, this time as an at-large council member. Schulz alleges that by this most recent election, respondent has violated or is about to violate the term limits provisions of the Toledo City Charter.
Respondent has filed an answer and affirmative defenses in which he asserts in pertinent part that relator's complaint fails to state a claim upon which relief can be granted. Respondent therefore asks that the complaint be dismissed. R.C. 2733.01 provides that "[a] civil action in quo warranto may be brought in the name of the state: (A) Against a person who usurps, intrudes into, or unlawfully holds or exercises a public office, civil or military, or a franchise, within this state, or an office in a corporation created by the authority of this state[.]" Pursuant to R.C. 2733.06, the person claiming to be entitled to the public office unlawfully held by another may bring an action in quo warranto by himself or through an attorney upon giving security for costs. The Supreme Court of Ohio, however, has expressly held that "to prevail under R.C. 2733.06, a relator must show (1) that the office is being unlawfully held and exercised by the respondent, and (2) that relator is entitled to the office." State ex rel. Delph v. Barr (1989), 44 Ohio St.3d 77, 541 N.E.2d 59, syllabus.
On the face of relator's complaint, it is clear that Schulz is not entitled to the office of at-large council member. Rather, Schulz alleges that he is a resident and elector of the city of Toledo and is eligible to hold office as an at-large member of council by virtue of having been a candidate therefore in the municipal election of November 8, 2005. Accordingly, Schulz does not have standing to bring an action in quo warranto. Moreover, because quo warranto does not lie where no one has actually assumed office," Parma v. Cleveland (1984), 9 Ohio St.3d 109, 112, 9 Ohio B. 336, 459 N.E.2d 528, and because respondent has not actually assumed the office of at-large council member, an action in quo warranto is premature. Id. In reaching this decision, we make no judgment as to the legality of respondent's actions.
Accordingly, relator's complaint is hereby dismissed for failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted. Costs to relator.
COMPLAINT DISMISSED.
State ex rel. Shulz v. McCloskey, 2006 Ohio 10.
posted by junta330 at 12:27 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
So according to the 6th district, Schulz doesn't have standing. But you might be correct in that he may have appealed to the supreme court citing something that says he has standing. 13abc gave some wrong information though. I can't find any evidence that the supreme court has heard this case.
posted by junta330 at 12:33 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
I've read them both and I also have done research on the citations so I disagree that under Ohio Law that Dave does not have standing.
I'd suggest you research Ohio Law and constitutional law when it comes to quo warranto. There is a precedence for this and is documented. Then the additional issue that despite what the City Law Director may have stated? The Charter is very clear.
Just because the City Law Director tries to make the claim that Dave has no standing does not make it so. Realistically given they are the ones that made the statement that both Betty and Bob could run for office? The advisarial nature of the situation creating one where they would not want to take responsibility for an error adds to the many reasons this deserves a full unbiased hearing in court.
posted by psyche777 at 12:40 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just puting out there what the 6th district said. Indeed, I would agree with you. I think he probably has standing, but I don't think he would be able to file a new suit. At this point he could probably only appeal to the Ohio Supreme Court.
posted by junta330 at 12:46 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
From my understanding that is what happened, that his re-filing was as a part of the next step which was the Ohio Supreme court. Which I agree techically should be listed as a "new" filing yet "re-filing" seemed to fit that explaination given most would think it was something new.
I'm glad we agree on the standing issue, personally I felt it should not have been thrown out, that it deserved a hearing.
posted by psyche777 at 12:54 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
Sorry, it's the lawyer training, they teach us to be very particular in our wording and our understanding of others words.
posted by junta330 at 01:29 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
*other's, not others, see there's a perfect example.
posted by junta330 at 01:31 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
That's okay it was my error in trying to make it clear in a non-lawyerish way. (Since I'm not one though I admit to reading wayyy to many briefs and citations) I should have made it clear it was the Supreme Court that I read this latest filing was thru and you would have known what I meant by "re-filing".
No harm...No foul...
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 01:38 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
I noted with interest that Mr. Wilson is quoted in today's Blade as not sure if he should ask McCloskey to step down.
Not sure?
So much for ethical standards. The befouled Lucas County Democratic Party is in such a state of ineptitude that is stunned into inaction. Carty is clearly to blame [as I have said repeatedly in other threads] for all of this incompetence in 'his' party. He is such a blockhead and egotist and the result is that the Democrats in the county are still widely split and he has no will to bring them together. As usual, it is his way or the highway.
Now, he's caught by the nuggies: his candidate, the crook that he backed, has been indicted, but he will not do the ethical by asking him to step down. Why? Two problems: 1.) his ego [admitting he backed a crook] and 2.) he doesn't have a good replacement.
Bob Vasquez and Karen Shanahan who finished #7 and #8 were backed by the A Team and, therefore, are not worthy to be chosen, turncoats that they were!
What's a meddling mayor to do?
...of course, he's still got his other B Team boy, Shankland.
God help us!
posted by limedrops911 at 09:22 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
Reminder ---
Innocent until PROVEN guilty. The burden of proof in a criminal proceeding is much tougher than in a civil suit. Before we start placing peoples' heads in nooses let's see how the trial plays out.
And yes Chris, it is a sad day. But it's up to us to not fuel the fires of disappointment until the final decision is published from the courts.
posted by DoknowDocare at 09:57 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
McCloskey laughs off the indictments during at interview with Toledo Tales.
posted by historymike at 10:17 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
You all may be able to verify this - Ive heard that the city will be picking up the tab for McC's defense, as he was acting as a city official when he committed his crime. Ive also heard the lawyers representing him are not from Toledo?
Also - would anyone be interested in kicking in and buying the Bulldog one of those new Gillette Fusion razors? Seeing as how we're going to be subjected to many many photo's of Mr McCloskey in the next few weeks and months as this drags on and on - at least he could shave his mug once in a while. How do you always have a two day growth all the time anyway??
posted by billy at 11:12 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
I heard that he has to pay for his criminal defense. The Blade mentioned he was "asking" for donations from Mr. Shouser. Though he does have the same attorney which could get dicey in terms of billing hours...perhaps...only speculating.
posted by daveschulz at 11:36 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
Dave is right, the City is paying for his defense for the civil suit but not for the criminal one. Given the bill so far for Bob McCloskey's legal representation for the civil case is well over $80,000 and it has not even gone to trial yet? He's either going to have to find a less expensive attorney or raise alot of donations. That does bring to mind though how ethical it is to raise donations while an elected official for a crime you are accused of committing related to your office.
posted by psyche777 at 03:57 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
Who in their right minds would have voted for that crook? Truely, the Toledo voters seem to be some of the most misinformed citizens I've ever seen. How did they get so stupid? Did the smarter voters stay home? Maybe there ought to be a pre-voter test to determine if the potential voter should be turned away due to ignorance.
posted by limedrops911 at 05:22 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
I don't claim to be knowledgable about politics, etc. and have trouble keeping track of politicians, so bear with me my ignorance on this whole McCloskey mess, but just reading what historymike put out from Toledo Tales, pisses me off, he called all Toledo voters ,stupid sheep. Why does anybody support him?
posted by starling02 at 08:01 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
I wouldn't call the voters of Toledo stupid. I would call a majority of them uninformed and lazy. Rather then do the research and make an informed decision, they vote for the same names over and over, without regard to the job they've done or their plans for the future. How else can you explain Shananan, Dave Schultz, and Vasquez not winning and McCloskey, Phillip Copeland, and Betty Shultz winning.
If Toledo and Lucas County are really going to turn things around, voters need to wake up and get ticked off and stop sending the same people back to office. There were good, qualified candidates that lost last time because they didn't have a name. I'm tired of people with a name winning when that name has never done anything.
If people are really upset by this, start your protest in 2006. There are two county races...Commissioner and Auditor. There should be some good candidates running for both positions. Find some fresh faces with good ideas to support and volunteer on their campaign or just spread the word to your family, friends, and neighbors. A small group of people can make a difference and put a stop to the slimy politics that is Toledo and Lucas County.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 08:26 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
Toledo Tales is satire, starling02. McCloskey said none of the comments attributed to him. The site spoofs real life and should not be considered truthful, except for the underlying truth below the surface.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 08:27 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
Also, is Frank Szollosi going to be the only democrat with the courage to call for McCloskey to step aside. I am embarrased right now by my party.
Monday morning, people should call all the democratic elected officials that hold County office or office in the City of Toledo and demand that they hold McCloskey to the same standard they hold Taft and the gang in Columbus. I will be calling all of them and the more people that call, the greater the impact will be.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 08:30 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
People like Szollosi make me wish people like McCloskey are in office. It's matter and antimatter. Let them get together. Boom! It's more fun for the rest of us.
I heard Szollosi on Friday moaning and pissing about how Robby wouldn't give Franky back his economic development thingy. Sounded like a baby wanting back is rattle or his binky or his blanky. Grow up Franky.
Szollosi is a typical sleazy, smarmy, career politician who only thinks of himself. Rob took over Bob's economic development role on a temporary basis. Assuming Bob beats the rap, McCloskey gets the economic development chair back.
And no, McCloskey should not step down on his own. No way in hell. The voters elected him, and it was a city-wide seat at that. The info about Bob violating term limits according to the city charter and this Pilkington issue were known before the election, and he still wound up the number two voter-getter.
He should remain on Council until either he's convicted or some other legal ruling says he should step down. He should not voluntarily resign. The voters spoke in November. If you don't like it, well, then change how we vote.
Just hold onto your britches and let the court system work it out. That parasite Szollosi isn't worth listenting to. Actually, that's not true. Listen but do the opposite of whatever Szollosi supports, and we'll be better off.
Final election results from November:
Phil Copeland ... 38,044 ... 11%
Bob McCloskey ... 36,421 ... 10%
Mark Sobczak ... 34,895 ... 10%
George Sarantou ... 32,961 ... 9%
Betty Shultz ... 32,044 ... 9%
Frank Szollosi ... 30,253 ... 9%
It has to eat at Frank that McCloskey finished higher than he did. So no wonder Frank wants Bob to step down.
The Toledo voter turnout in November was around 40% of registered voters. How many registered voters are there in Toledo? McCloskey got 36K+. At-large seat. He stays. If the voters were truly concerned about Bob's "problems" they would not have elected him for the at-large seat. Problem: the voters didn't care. Solution: get more people informed and get them to care and to vote.
And what about the other three on Council who went along with Bob on that Pilkington vote?
Feb 11, 2006 Blade story
"But the rezoning failed 7-4 on council’s final vote, on Aug. 27, 2002, after Mr. McCloskey withdrew his support."
A McCloskey NO vote wasn't enough to shoot doown the rezoning issue. McCloskey needed help from "friends."
One of McCloskey's quotes that's on tape:
"I have the votes on council to stop this project."
Here's a Nov 21, 2005 posting and discussion about another Blade story on McCloskey and Pilkington. From that Nov Blade story:
"On Aug. 27, 2002, council voted down the rezoning request by a 7-4 vote, after four council members who had supported the measure at the committee level on July 17 changed their votes. Mr. McCloskey and the council members who voted against the rezoning said they did so because they decided the land should be retained for industrial uses. But more than a year later, council voted unanimously to rezone the property for a Toledo Public Schools' middle school."
psyche777 posted info from the Blade 2002 story about that Aug council vote that went against Pilkington:
"The rezoning was recommended 7-0 by council's planning and zoning committee July 17. Among the supporters then was District 3 Councilman Robert McCloskey. But Mr. McCloskey changed his mind a few weeks later. He said he decided that the property should remain available for industrial use."
"A retired LOF employee, Mr. McCloskey said he had no love for Pilkington. He claimed the company reneged on a deal he had helped negotiate to pay for retirees' prescriptions above $2,000. He acknowledged that he changed his mind about the zoning matter after he'd approached Pilkington about making good on the prescription commitment with no success."
"He said he is not personally affected because he receives health coverage through the city. "I have a little bit of revenge in my stomach," Mr. McCloskey said."
"Council President Peter Ujvagi and council members Wilma Brown, and Tina Skeldon also reversed their vote from the July 17 committee meeting. All three said they changed their minds to preserve the property for industrial use. "The key issue here was really the continual shrinking of industrial land here in Toledo," Mr. Ujvagi said."
Oh how these people lie. Industrial use. It went to TPS. These other three, they seem a little too close to the situation. Maybe not directly involved but certainly indirectly enough to warrant a closer look. And maybe they are directly involved, who knows?
What's interesting is that the November Blade article and today's Blade article both failed to mention "the other three." If these were all Republicans, do you think the Blade would have omitted the names of the others who changed their minds and voted NO along with Bob?
They supported the rezoning for a charter school. Then supposedly out of the blue they changed their minds because they felt the land should be used for industrial purposes. But a year later, another council votes to use the land for TPS. Come on.
posted by jr at 10:27 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
JR - thank you. I could not have said it any better.
If people are truly unhappy about the electoral process, the candidates, the results,etc. then they should have volunteered during the campaigns, attended every meeting/gathering that was available to them, and made damned sure the world knew who was worth supporting in their eyes.
You state the "the other 3" are not mentioned in any of this. Why do you think this is? Just look at who the other 3 are. The question answers itself.
As for Frank Szollosi - his whining and foot stomping is going to be his total downfall. He finished 6th in the general election because he had hitched his star to JFo's wagon. He must have thought Jack would take him along as his 'roadie' when the election was over. Instead he got left behind. Frank is petulent, vindictive, conniving, manipulative and no less 'creative' in his quest for votes to support his 'causes'.
Thanks again - great post!
posted by DoknowDocare at 11:28 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
Phil Copeland ... 38,044 ... 11%
Bob McCloskey ... 36,421 ... 10%
Mark Sobczak ... 34,895 ... 10%
George Sarantou ... 32,961 ... 9%
Betty Shultz ... 32,044 ... 9%
Frank Szollosi ... 30,253 ... 9%
----
Bob Vasquez ...28,014 8%
Every time some local political story pops up, Frank Szollosi is out front on TV, the radio, or in the paper. He's like our own version of Jesse Jackson. Whenever the media needs a soundbyte, they run to the Irrelevant One.
In Copeland's first election, he finishes #1.
McCloskey, well, what else is there to say there, and he's #2.
Mark Sobczak was a challenger, a newbie, and he finishes #3.
Republicans George Sarantou and Bettie Shultz finished ahead of Frank, and Bettie has own term-limit violation issues. Can you imagine being a Toledo Democrat and finishing behind two Republicans? That's got to hurt. I think only four Republicans exist on Council.
I don't understand why Frank gets so much air time and attention. He's an incumbent who finished last in the group to make it to Council. And he only finished a couple thousand votes ahead of Vasquez. No wonder Frank didn't get elected Council president. No wonder Frank got stripped of his economic development whatever.
Last. An incumbent with some kind of family name, right? Sorry, if you finish last as an incumbent, you don't have much pull or say anymore. Oh, you still have a "say" but you shouldn't expect anyone to listen to what you have to say.
Political advice for Frank, he should shut his yap and get to work. Quit playing the role of a career politician. Quit making himself out as some kind of victim. He should quit feeling entitled to something he doesn't deserve. Maybe try some quiet leadership. Accomplish something. Earn some respect instead of demanding it.
posted by jr at 12:21 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 12, 2006 #
JR...I agree with you...not a Szollosi fan at all....I also noticed that he's like a little kid trying to get noticed by the camera. And almost everytime he opens his mouth, he inserts his foot. I just liked what he said that for democrats to have any credibility, we have to treat McCloskey like we are demanding Taft and Thurber and others be treated. We can't have it both ways.
And by the way, I worked for both Vasquez and Shananan to try and get them elected. Wish I would have helped Dave Shultz. Look at the election results from 05 by ward. Very interesting to see what wards supported what candidates and that the more affluent and educated wards saw right through some of these candidates that won. Unfortunately, a lot of people are fleeing Toledo to the suburbs and there are just not enough of those wards.
posted by moderatedemocrat at 02:13 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 12, 2006 #
I wouldn't call the voters of Toledo stupid.
-------------------------------------------
I would. The vast majority, anyway. Actually, that goes for a lot of places besides toledo. Although, at least this time, they overwhelmingly had the good sense to eject Ford -pity we had to settle for the alternative, but...can't have everything. Also a pity they couldn't have totally decimated city council and got all new faces. I didn't read the thread all that carefully, but I saw two statements I fully agree with. The Bulldog should not resign, unless he's found guilty, or some other legal reason develops. And that's coming from someone who did NOT vote for him, and thinks he's completely worthless. And I've maintained for many years that EVERY time a position on council opens up, the next-in-line of the vote-getters in the last election gets it automatically. Even if I personally didn't support them or don't like them. Screw this appointment crap. And the reason Frank is on TV constantly now is-(just my opinion, but formed after watching Lucas County politics for many years)the party took note of his last-place finish, and they're intentionally trying to boost him for the next election. Old trick. Could be grooming him for another position in the next election as well. They're doing the same thing on a national scale with Obama.
posted by Foolkiller at 02:38 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 12, 2006 #
foolkiller posted:
And the reason Frank is on TV constantly now is-(just my opinion, but formed after watching Lucas County politics for many years)the party took note of his last-place finish, and they're intentionally trying to boost him for the next election. Old trick.
No. Frank has not been invited into nor has he attempted to prostrate himself before the door on Madison Ave.
Carty disdains Frank for not kowtowing to his wishes and for fighting so strongly for Ford's re-election. Carty writes his 'enemies list' in permanent marker.
Frank refuses to capitualte.
In today's Blade, Jim Tankersley notes that Frank is the only Democrat to call for McCloskey's resignation. Tankersley also points out the problem that the Carty-Party has a real image problem, having supported and promoted McCloskey for council despite him knowing of the impending charges against him. Further, Tankersley notes that Mark Sobczak, Carty's lackey on council, was brazen enough [stupid enough] to nominate and nominate McCloskey to be council president.
These two bums have lots of egg on their faces and, as they are part of the Madison Avenue Democratic Party, have brought shame to all Democrats in the county.
posted by limedrops911 at 08:59 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 12, 2006 #
Bottom line, if you supported or stated that one of the Republican Noe Conduits should step down or not run again when they have not been proven guilty then you should be demanding the same in this situation.
In my opinion even more so in this situation because McCloskey was indicted. How is he going to be effective when the focus is not going to be on the City of Toledo it's going to be on this trial, it's going to be on comments like "he was shaking he was scared he doesn't know how he's going to pay for his legal fees". He's going to use his position as an elected official to raise funds to pay for his legal defense in a criminal matter.
For that matter Brown should step down too if she was aware of the demand for money and changed her vote because of it. Same for Ujvagi and Skeldon, if they were accessories to this by full well knowing the reason they changed their vote was because Bob told them the $100,000 wasn't delivered? The Prosecuters office should have looked at them as well.
As to the Frank bashing? Anyone who believes he is doing this to get support of the Lucas County Dem Party should rethink that. If anything he's going against what they want. The media asked them all for comments, it's not like he went running down there and given what had just happened on January 31st where he tried to get an amendment thru on McCloskey not being the Economic Chair? I can't blame him for making a public statement.
posted by psyche777 at 09:33 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 12, 2006 #
I have tried for several years to understand Frank. I did not vote for him, won't vote for him, and hope that there is somewhere else for him to go. I am not saying that everything he says is wrong, just that he is not consistent in his actions, unless you call sticking his face in front of a camera consistent. I have not seen him follow through on anything up to this point. Just my opinion and I know for some it's not a popular one.
posted by DoknowDocare at 10:27 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 12, 2006 #
"In today's Blade, Jim Tankersley notes that Frank is the only Democrat to call for McCloskey's resignation."
As I said, do the opposite of Frank Szollosi. It's interesting that Frank is the only one calling for McCloskey to step down.
Sorry, but the bottom line is my favorite stat of the week:
Nov 2005 election results for council at-large:
Phil Copeland ... 38,044 ... 11%
Bob McCloskey ... 36,421 ... 10%
Mark Sobczak ... 34,895 ... 10%
George Sarantou ... 32,961 ... 9%
Betty Shultz ... 32,044 ... 9%
Frank Szollosi ... 30,253 ... 9%
McCloskey's troubles were known before the election. Same for Betty Shultz. The voters spoke. End of. Demand all you want, but the officials stay until some other more powerful entity forces them out.
And I'm tired of hearing that worn out line about how "the voters are stupid." 36,421 voted for McCloskey. How many citizens does Toledo have that are eligible to vote? 150,000 to 200,000? Once again, you're directing your disdain to the wrong group. Don't blame the people who took time out of their day to actually vote. Where are the 60-70% who don't vote?
posted by jr at 01:07 P.M. EST on Sun Feb 12, 2006 #
Ok, so...let's say-the majority of PEOPLE in toledo and america are stupid. For not voting. Better?
posted by Foolkiller at 02:05 A.M. EST on Mon Feb 13, 2006 #
Stupid or more enlightened? Ignorance is bliss. Maybe the people who don't follow politics and don't vote are actually the smart ones.
"I know it's fashionable to rip on people who don't vote, but when the majority of people aren't voting, maybe they know something the minority don't. Like in the end, it's a waste of time to pay attention to politics because we'll get screwed over in the long run anyway no matter who wins. A tax cut here, that's nice. Oh look, taxes went up over there. That service is implemented, but another one got cut."
posted by jr at 02:13 P.M. EST on Mon Feb 13, 2006 #
jr - you may have a point. But unfortunately, those that don't vote are also among the group of complainers. There is no ideal world, only a world full of idealistic people.
posted by DoknowDocare at 07:45 P.M. EST on Mon Feb 13, 2006 #
You know people who complain about politics but don't vote? Now that is strange. I don't think I've met anyone like that. The complainers I've met are also voters.
posted by jr at 12:17 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 14, 2006 #
Here's some brilliant thinking from a Democrat about the cause of McCloskey's problems:
"A spokesman for the state Democratic Party, Brian Rothenberg, blamed Mr. McCloskey's alleged transgressions … on the Republicans who control state government. Republicans "have created an environment, and they have created a pay-to-play atmosphere of campaign laws, where even people in local cities with the best intents get caught up," Mr. Rothenberg said."
No doubt about it. Ohio's statewide Democrat party has serious problems.
posted by jr at 12:30 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 14, 2006 #
Maybe you're right on the non-voters being the smart ones, jr. I'm just about ready to join the smart ones, too. I've voted most of my life in Lucas County, and I may not as well have bothered. The only vote locally of mine that came out the way I wanted it to for years (talking about people here, not issues) was Mayor Finkenstein, and I've admitted before, the ONLY reason I voted for him was to get rid of JFo, I didn't think the town could take 4 more years. I know it doesn't take that much effort to vote, but jeez. The only thing that has kept me voting for the last ten years or so has been the issues, actually. I feel as if it's the only thing I have any say in. Oh, yeah....I believe the last person I voted for that got in before Carty 2-the Return, was Donna Owens.
posted by Foolkiller at 07:07 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 14, 2006 #
Whoops-forgot-voted for Ludeman & Sarantau (sp?)the first time.
posted by Foolkiller at 07:09 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 14, 2006 #
Yes, jr - I have had many conversations with folks about various issues in Toledo and eventually the talk turns to possibly the person(s) elected. I have been rocked on my heels when people say "I don't bother to vote." At that point my brain says if you don't 'bother' to vote, then be quiet! It makes me absolutely nuts to hear non-voters criticize and condemn, even offer 'cures' for the problem. If they are so sincere then why the hell don't they vote? or better yet, run for office?
posted by DoknowDocare at 07:43 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 14, 2006 #
Why is Redfish wanting McCloskey to resign? What about the voters who spoke last November and made McCloskey the number two vote-getter? Don't their "voices" count too? I thought Democrats were concerned with making every vote count. If that's true, how can another Democrat demand McCloskey to resign?
The 36K+ who voted for McCloskey apparently don't care about the negative issues surrounding Bob. Maybe these voters relate better to Bob than Frank Szollosi. Maybe to these voters, McCloskey "gets results" too.
We complain about not enough people voting. If McCloskey were to voluntarily step down due to pressure by others, a McCloskey supporter can claim that his or her vote doesn't matter, and what's the point in voting?
And what if McCloskey voluntarily stepped down and then was found not guilty on the Pilkington issue and he also got a favorable ruling about term limits even though he stepped down, now what? Does Bob get his old council seat back, bumping out whoever took his place?
Over 36,000 Toledoans voted for McCloskey last fall. Has anyone in the media gone out and tried to survey any of these McCloskey supporters to see what they think? Or do these people not count?
It seems to me that demanding McCloskey to resign now is anti-democracy. The info was available and McCloskey got elected. Same for Noe conduit Betty Shultz, and she got re-elected.
I've seen a couple opinion pieces recently, one in the Blade and the other in the City Paper, ordering Maggie Thurber not to seek re-election for county commissioner. To these writers I say, "Screw you." She has not been convicted of anything. Let the voters decide, or does that make too much sense?
posted by jr at 11:02 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 14, 2006 #
And to me, Copeland and, if he runs for another office, Sarantou should resign from council before McCloskey.
The info about Bob was known before the November election and Bob got elected anyway.
The info about Copeland and Sarantou was not known before the November election, but I bet these two had thoughts of running for another office before the November election, and they kept it hidden from the public. Seems to me Copeland and, if runs for another office, Sarantou defrauded the public.
What if Copeland and Sarantou told the public before the November election that they would seek another office two months after the election? Do you think they would have been re-elected? It would have been more honest if they had announced their possible intentions before the November election. Then if they got re-elected anyway, okay, the voters spoke.
posted by jr at 11:13 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 14, 2006 #
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