I don't know if this is what you want or not, but I'll give it a shot:
I wish the city would use the students and faculty at UT more often to improve the city.
For example, sculptures/public art are very quick ways to improve the image and beauty of a neighborhood or city. However, it is often expensive to get well-known artists to design these works of art. Art students at UT, however, would be thrilled to have the opportunity to create a piece of work in Toledo and have that artwork be the centerpiece of their portfolio upon graduation. If the city could team up with UT's art department then the city could get some very nice artwork and the students would get an invaluable experience out of it as well. The city would pay for all materials, but other than that there wouldn't be much cost.
Another completely unrelated issue is in healthcare with Toledo Children's and Mercy Children's. Right now Toledo has two small-to-medium sized children's hospitals. The problem is that this waters down the resources and forces many children to travel to Ann Arbor for more complicated treatments. If the two were combined into one comprehensive facility it would be a major force in the area's economy and would improve access to care for children.
posted by HeyHey at 09:55 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
I wish the city would send the utility co.s out to thoroughly inspect their lines which run under roads which are being repaved before the new pavement is put down. All too often I see brand new pavement being put down only to see the Gas, Water and Electric co.s out a week later tearing up the pavement to replace or repair their lines. Then they cold patch their repairs and you have a brand new road with a pothole or sinkhole a week after it was repaved.
posted by KraZyKat at 10:07 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
I hope Carty sees HeyHey and KraZyKat's posts. Good ideas.
posted by CrankyEastSider at 10:17 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
Excellent point about road repairs. I could be wrong, but I see a lot of what looks like perfectly good road/highway, being ripped out and replaced/repaired, repeatedly it seems - and then I drive down a street like Nebraska going to Scott Park Campus, and it's a pothole hell to get down that street, hasn't been touched in a long time I doubt.
Too many detours due to road work, that tie up too many key streets, x-ways, intersections in one area, making it a nightmare to get where you want to go. And what the hell is going on with 280?? That seems like it's been shut down for eternity.
Too many blighted, run down areas, buildings with broken out windows.
I know I'll get 'boo'd' for this, but Toledo is lacking horribly for restaurants that allow smoking. If somebody comes to Toledo and want to go out to dinner, we are limited to Ciao's (which I think may be Sylvania), Mancy's, Gumbos (in the bar), Nick & Jimmy's (ok for casual but not nice dining), Outback (Maumee one), Oregon Inn (Oregon), or Joe's French and Italian Inn (Michigan), or others in Michigan or Maumee. NONE in Toledo other than those I mentioned. Toledo just looks pathetic for dining out with smoking sections - we always end up in Michigan or Maumee. And there goes our dining dollars.
posted by starling02 at 11:04 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
Sadly Starling, you are in a dying breed of those who appreciate a nice smoke after a meal. Unfortunately, the new economy demands a smoke free environment (roughly 80%). If Toledo wishes to progress and grow from this point on, it must embrace this new economy and be willing to grow. This includes passing issue 5, and voting no on issue 4. While some may claim that this is a violation of civil rights, nothing could be further from the truth. There's no amendment for smokers' rights. If Toledo wants to succeed, it must embrace the new economy. This includes passing measures like the most successful economies in the US, like New York, Chicago, and California (strict smoking bans). But Toledoans must set themselves apart from the rest of the nation, and become the capital of new energy.
We have the resources and transportation abilities to do this. We sit in one of the most resourceful regions in the nation, yet we never take advantage. For instance, we grow corn here, we are now creating ethanol plants...why not take advantage of our shipping to sell ethanol? For ethanol can only be exported by boat, train, or truck (no pipeline, not possible). Why not use windmills on the lake? Why not create a model environmental econony? Why not be the FIRST to take advantage of these things and as a result benefit the most? Because we are Toledo. We are not willing to move forward. We need people in our government and business to stand up to make Toledo great. We need the public to embrace these ideas, because if we don't take a minimal risk soon, we will all fail.
Toledo needs to stop living in the past. That's step one.
posted by junta330 at 11:22 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
My pet peeve is the King bridge. How many years have the repairs been underway? It seems like it never ends.
And the concrete that is fairly new has lots of cracks (this is in the wall that's on the Sports Arena side and at that end of the bridge. I wonder what we've paid for this stuff.
Also, I don't get why all the repair money we've poured into the King span didn't go toward constructing a higher bridge that doesn't need to open to let ships through. We have the new one under construction and the High Level not needing to open, but then in the middle of the sandwich there is the troublesome King bridge. And it has to be manned during shipping season.
posted by CrankyEastSider at 11:27 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 19, 2006 #
1. Save money and stop buying stupid crap from fly-by-night stores.
2. Pick up a piece of trash (just ONE) each day when you're walking down the street. Do it to the first piece of trash you see (or around the place where you know trash cans will be) and then pay no further attention that day. Convince someone else to do the same: just ONE piece, the FIRST piece you see.
3. Start frequenting your local library.
4. Walk each day. Takle out a lousy 30 minutes of your day and just walk around your neighborhood. The average American daily walk is about 2000 steps. For really healthy living, it should be up to 10000. It's not just for your health; walking around your neighborhood provides "presence".
5. Talk to the people you see each day. Don't just ask about the weather, and "How 'bout them Mets, eh?" -- talk about local politics. "What do you think about all these levies coming on the ballot?" "Did you vote for Carty?" "Should Noe be hung by his neck or his balls?" Etc.
6. Take a break from the Internet every so often. It's only making your butt huge and your legs varicose-veiny, anyway. You can combine this with #3 and #4.
7. Don't just turn off that TV -- BURN IT. Either that, or hook up the VCR/DVD to channel 3 and only use it as movie machine. TV is a Stupidity Transmission System. Get rid of it before it gets rid of your very mind.
HeyHey said: “I wish the city would use the students and faculty at UT more often to improve the city.”
The city is incapable of using such resources since there are two major, artificial barriers:
1. Unionized Labor. The city's use of students would immediately threaten the city's unionized labor force.
2. Political Kingdoms. Anything the city aims to do is largely the result of some politician or agency trying to assert control such that it builds its own power base, NOT that it serves some public purpose. The Toledo city government is completely out of our control, and has been that way for decades. It is highly resistant to financial and sensible reality.
HeyHey said: “If the city could team up with UT's art department then the city could get some very nice artwork and the students would get an invaluable experience out of it as well.”
Look at it this way, as a politician; you obtained a nice public statue in one of two ways:
1. You spent a lot of money on it from a government source, and used local talent.
2. You spent next to nothing on it, and used local talent.
As HeyHey, you'd choose option #2 -- no question about it. However, the pol will choose option #1 EVERY TIME, since spending money is an important method of asserting political control. Occasionally a pol indulges in something using low-cost methods, but that's an exception that merely tests the rule.
At any rate, let's say HeyHey's idea gains credence, as a "Toledo Art Initiative". What's going to happen in Toledo? Well, the city will, say, buy a big chunk of stone and have it shipped to a art studio somewhere on UT's campus. A team of artists go to work on it. Stone chips start flyin', since that's what sculptors do. One artist is hit with a stone chip in his eye, having breifly removed his face mask to mop up some sweat. What's the penultimate result? Some shyster will show up and convince the student to sue the city of Toledo for $1M for being responsible for the accident! What's the end result? The city will stop the entire "Toledo Art Initiative". "Too risky."
Starling said: “Too many blighted, run down areas, buildings with broken out windows.”
Well, the city of Toledo refuses to police the landlords. It will, however, try to attach yet another fee to each and every residential sale in the city. It will, however, pay the construction mafia to bulldoze about 200 homes each year.
Did the city ever manage to get the (now prior) owner of the Arbuckle Building to pay his back property taxes? He still owed those taxes by the time the building was burned by arson in 2005. You'd think the city would pursue that, since the owner was a propertied person who undoubtedly has accounts that can be seized for payment of back taxes.
Junta said: “This includes passing issue 5, and voting no on issue 4. While some may claim that this is a violation of civil rights, nothing could be further from the truth.”
We've had many topics posted about how wrong you are. The actual civil right here is to indulge in vices or not in accordance to the rules of each privately-owned (yet publically-accessible) establishment. Smoking is perfectly legal ... hence venues for smoking should be equally perfectly legal.
Junta said: “If Toledo wants to succeed, it must embrace the new economy. This includes passing measures like the most successful economies in the US, like New York, Chicago, and California (strict smoking bans).”
Firstly, there is no "new economy". You still have to work to produce useful items in order to pay your bills.
Secondly, NY, Chi and CA have utterly enormous populations that naturally produce equally huge concentrations of wealth. Those places also have some of the most groaning poverty extremes known in America. You can keep those "solutions" to yourself. Toledo is a blue-collar town with people who drink and smoke. Our homeless situation is not as bad as those areas, and compared to the "progressive" areas like Cincinnati, Toledo's home ownership statistic is VERY high.
What you're after, Junta, is a faux rising tide that actually lifts very few boats ... i.e. elitism, which largely serves your class of person. You can't run an economy by catering almost solely to the needs of yuppies.
Out of curiosity, how many bowling alleys or bars do you frequent, Junta?
Junta said: “[W]e grow corn here, we are now creating ethanol plants...why not take advantage of our shipping to sell ethanol? For ethanol can only be exported by boat, train, or truck (no pipeline, not possible).”
The Anderson's is doing just that.
Junta said: “Why not use windmills on the lake?”
First Energy is not an investing utility; they're a profit-taking utility. Who do you think is responsible for the 2003 blackout? They are. They caused the blackout from a variety of cost-cutting measures. One of those measures involved trimming tree limbs to keep them away from knocking out power lines. The spark for the blackout was a single power line being taken down by falling tree limbs in central Ohio. The effects from that line failure cascaded across a system of faulty procedures (due to cost-cutting) and already-offline power plants (due to cost-cutting). But, hey, at least the shareholders of First Energy were happy, right?
Make sure you write a deeply reasoned letter to FE outlining your concerns about using wind power. Make sure you also send it on a nice piece of linen bond ... so that they'll wipe their ass with it comfortably. As long as FE has an effective monopoly on generating power here in Ohio, we're not going to see the adoption of REAL progressive energy systems like windmills ... as well as solar and geothermal. (This is kind of ironic since First Solar, Inc. is based in Perrysburg. They make solar-electric panels.)
posted by GuestZero at 03:40 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
Art students at UT, however, would be thrilled to have the opportunity to create a piece of work in Toledo and have that artwork be the centerpiece of their portfolio upon graduation
HeyHey, thats a good idea, but Owens also has a new art center, it could extend to both places. Owens even has artistic welding.
Sadly Starling, you are in a dying breed of those who appreciate a nice smoke after a meal. Unfortunately, the new economy demands a smoke free environment (roughly 80%).
I have to agree with starling here. Thats why my dining dollars go to perrysburg and sylvania, and its funny but the people in the non smoking sections there dont really seem all that bothered.
My pet peeve is the King bridge. How many years have the repairs been underway? It seems like it never ends
Hang tight on that Cranky, they are in the process of rebuilding it off-site to replace the spans.
i.e. elitism, which largely serves your class of person. You can't run an economy by catering almost solely to the needs of yuppies.
....Applause.....
posted by tm at 08:04 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
I'd like to see US each get out and meet our neighbors. That would be the first issue b/c when we have problems - we feel very alone. It's also easy to discredit one person, but very difficult to make a group stand down when they're in the right. It's also easier to make sure that no one in your neighborhood is overlooked. My grandma had a boy who came to mow her yard. All through high school and she paid him. He went away to college but came home for the summers. He knew there was no other kid to mow the yard so he went and did it. For years. Or else she would have had to move into an apartment. :-) We can do this stuff for each other. But only if we know who needs help.
Meet your neighbors! Didn't say you have to like them, but know each other.
Then I'd like to see the job description of our public servants (and I'd like to know if those people know their own job description and responsibilities), right down to the Police Chief, the head of the water dept. and the measurables for their jobs. Then I'd like for them to have to REPORT on the measurables for their jobs, like any other employee would have to do - quarterly. And I'd like to see those reports published where the public can see them.
posted by katie82640 at 08:25 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
WOW! Some great responses here. Thougtful, thought provoking, and varied in concept. This is exactly what I was hoping for.
Thank you all! And keep it coming. In about a week or so I will go through all the comments and see if I can't post my interpretation of the issues and solutions. Then we can have more discussion.
Thank you all!
posted by DoknowDocare at 08:42 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
Hey Hey that's a great idea with the art. I thought of a similar project the city could do a few years ago. Carty is always talking about beautifying the dilapidated areas of town. Why not get a couple of Art teachers in the area to give their students credit to going into some of these areas during the day and paint murals, build sculptures, and use the community groups already there to work cohesively to beautify the area.
One such area I think this would work well in is the Old South End because many of the community groups there have been proactive over the years.
posted by MikeyA at 09:20 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
I think the city should pay Chris Meyers to make a website for ideas for the city just like he's done with TPS. BTW Chris, Great job with the site! That's the type of leadership this city needs.
posted by MikeyA at 09:21 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
I agree with Katie's point about knowing your neighbors. Neighbors are good to have, good to know and can be a huge benefit. For example, neighbors who know each other can help each other, and talk about any issues in their immediate neighborhoods. I live off of Arlington, and we know everyone on our block. We all came together a few years back and got a nasty no good home taken care and that home that was once nasty and worhth less taht $30,000, just sold for 98,000. This was a huge step for our neighborhood, and we could not have done it if we did not stick together. SO Katie, your right ... Know your neighbors... It will help keep your neighborhood vibrant!
posted by jim30529 at 09:22 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
Not only did I enjoy your conversation, the ice cream was fantastic too! Looking forward to some hot chocolate soon...
I have read a few replies and will enjoy reading the rest. What a great thread!
posted by gotoledogo at 11:12 A.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
Starling: "Too many blighted, run down areas, buildings with broken out windows."
Then we as citizens need to start doing what people in Detroit have done: Paint the entire rundown house an obnoxious color in the middle of the night. Rundown houses might not be obvious to a passerby, but they'd sure draw attention if they were painted hot pink. It pretty much forces the city to deal with the properties, as they become too visible to ignore. With the proliferation of satellite mapping sites, painting the roofs might be a good idea, too. I'd donate a night or two and a few gallons of paint to pull off a stunt like that.
Cranky: We have the new one under construction and the High Level not needing to open, but then in the middle of the sandwich there is the troublesome King bridge.
The Craig St. Bridge is staying and there's still a couple of railroad bridges further down the river that need to be opened and closed. Building a bridge with a 115ft clearance would put the end of the ramps in the middle of Main St. and several blocks into downtown, not to mention cost at least $100M.
Personally, I think drawbridges are beautiful.
GZ said: As long as FE has an effective monopoly on generating power here in Ohio, we're not going to see the adoption of REAL progressive energy systems like windmills.
Who says First Energy needs to be the company to build the wind turbines out in the lake? Most renewable energy projects are not undertaken by large energy companies like First Energy. If we ever do institute a carbon limit in this country, Wind is going to play a big part in limiting and offsetting our carbon output.
If you're interested in generating wind power on your own, here's a great primer from Home Power Magazine. If you're mechanically and electrically knowledgeable, it's not too hard to build your own wind turbine using sheet metal, gears, and a few old auto parts.
For distributed wind power to take off, Ohio should look to Ontario and force large power companies like First Energy to buy consumer power at a significantly higher rate than they sell power to consumers. Maybe not 8x higher like Ontario, but 1.5x to 2x higher would provide a lot of incentive for private citizens to make a large capital investment into sustainable energy.
And for the record, FirstSolar is based in Phoenix and the main reason solar isn't used much in Toledo is that the Midwest isn't a high solar radiation area. Solar Panels aren't unworkable in NWO, but for the ROI they don't make much sense. Wind is much more practical since we have a steady breeze around here most of the time.
posted by thenick at 03:00 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
I wouldn't be too quick to jump on windmills after Wisconsin had to stop their project with them due to the threat of hundreds of dead birds.
posted by MikeyA at 03:26 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
actually, Ohio has a wind working group to address industry and environmental issues...working well together, actually.
I don't think we'll see windmills in the Lake, but I suggested to the western townships that their farmlands might be terrific areas for windmill farms (small footprints for the actual posts, good wind, far enough from the lake to not interfer too much with migratory patterns). Suggested maybe they could trade electricity to Toledo in exchange for water...
And I believe that the airport got a grant to install some experimental solar panels to generate energy.
posted by MaggieThurber at 03:54 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
1. Save money and stop buying stupid crap from fly-by-night stores. S’truth. More to the point, take your hard earned dollars to a proprietorship. Not a chain, not a franchised store.
2. Pick up a piece of trash (just ONE) each day Agreed. Eventually, the place will look better.
3. Start frequenting your local library. Start reading.
4. Walk each day. It's not just for your health; walking around your neighborhood provides "presence". I don’t think people realize how important this is. The crime rate falls, you get to know the normal state of your neighborhood, and you can meet your neighbors.
5. Talk to the people you see each day. Don't just ask about the weather, Yeah, don’t stick to the safe stuff. Go ahead and start a fight.
6. Take a break from the Internet every so often. It's only making your butt huge Who’s GZ talking about here?
7. Don't just turn off that TV It’s been over a year for me. I can’t stand TV. The constant commercials and the racket annoy me. SitComs aren’t funny; they’re stupid and irritating.
On the plan to beautify the city with local art talent: Well, the city will, say, buy a big chunk of stone and have it shipped to a art studio somewhere on UT's campus. A team of artists go to work on it. Stone chips start flyin',
Here’s where the fantasy ends. Artists do not work in teams. Real artists are like real programmers; they’re moody, thin-skinned individuals with hair-trigger tempers and plenty of their own creative ideas. They carry power tools and blunt instruments of destruction. This piece of stone you conjured up wouldn’t have a scratch on it except the ones left by the TPD forensic evidence team as they tried to unravel the mystery of the missing artists.
Seriously, if you want a reality check on this, look at the sculpture at Glendale and the AWT. If it’s still there, it was some idea of Carty’s years ago. The city paid a fortune for this monstrosity, which I believe is supposed to be the flying victory of Edgar Cayce. Correct me if I’m wrong, as I haven’t seen it in a few years.
Junta said: “If Toledo wants to succeed, it must embrace the new economy. This includes passing measures like the most successful economies in the US, like New York, Chicago, and California (strict smoking bans).”
Junta, straight money now, I have never seen someone so good at being wrong. Words fail me. Look, these three cities have horrible economies. All three contain poverty that is absolutely staggering and the most restrictive societies in the US of A. GZ is being too generous with his description. Of the three, I think LA is the worst and has been since Reagan cut the funding for all the mental health hospitals, which promptly closed their doors and ejected the patients into the street. The California energy crises was a corporate scam that directly involved government officials at the highest levels and made the Enron crises look like petty crime. CA still isn’t over the effects of that little scheme, and I personally don’t think the entire State will ever recover.
The spark for the blackout was a single power line being taken down by falling tree limbs in central Ohio.
That could be argued. While that was the official story, there was also a lot of human error involved in failing to maintain the power grid. I don’t believe that a company who is incapable of maintaining service during a minor crises is capable of narrowing the cause of that crises to a single incident. More than likely there was complete management failure to an extent that no one wanted published for a variety of reasons, not the least of which included the stock market.
I'm off to walk the dog, who is certain to crap on my neighbor's lawn, thus providing me with a chance to get to know the neighbor a little better as well as suggesting a topic for conversation. Later I'll take Main Lady drinking and dancing. Here's mud in your eye!
posted by madjack at 04:08 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
GuestZero and Junta posted about smoking in public places, with GuestZero telling Junta: "We've had many topics posted about how wrong you are. The actual civil right here is to indulge in vices or not in accordance to the rules of each privately-owned (yet publically-accessible) establishment. Smoking is perfectly legal ... hence venues for smoking should be equally perfectly legal."
GZ ignores the fact it's also not illegal to take a dump, but it is illegal to have people pooping in restaurant dining rooms because there are, among other things, health issues at play. The same is true of dumping smoke in said dining rooms. Smokers' rights begin where everyone else's rights end, and they don't end where smokers would like to think they do.
TheNick, I didn't know Craig will remain in place. I like the convenience of using it, so that's good news for me. I wouldn't mind having the ramp for King stretching well into Main Street. Anything to get rid of the bars...
posted by CrankyEastSider at 05:24 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
GZ asked: Out of curiosity, how many bowling alleys or bars do you frequent, Junta?
A: Quite a few.
Madjack said: Junta, straight money now, I have never seen someone so good at being wrong.
How many times do I have to tell you that I'm always right?
GZ also noted that the Anderson's is investing in ethanol. While true, we need more investment in transportation of these goods. Train, truck, and boat. My point is we have a great location to succeed in this aspect of the economy, but we haven't taken full advantage. I was simply throwing out of few specific ideas in order to illustrate what could be done. But in general, I'd like to see more investment into these industries. If any of you want to build of this and create more specific ideas, I'd love to hear them.
posted by junta330 at 06:48 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
GZ ignores the fact it's also not illegal to take a dump, but it is illegal to have people pooping in restaurant dining rooms because there are, among other things, health issues at play. The same is true of dumping smoke in said dining rooms. Smokers' rights begin where everyone else's rights end, and they don't end where smokers would like to think they do. Very true but every resteraunt does afford a restroom where those paying customers who have to take a dump can go.
posted by MikeyA at 07:09 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
Very true but every resteraunt does afford a restroom where those paying customers who have to take a dump can go.
Both are good points, but to add to it, couldn't you say the same thing about smokers. Smoker's have the right to smoke, but do it outside or in a separate smoking section, etc.
And by the way, I myself think smoking should be allowed in bars and bowling alleys (atleast after 9). If you don't like it, start your own private business that doesn't allow smoking.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 07:27 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
Re: smoking. People smoke for many reasons, not just to annoy the non-smokers. Habit, hand habit, oral fixation (??), calms the nerves (it is my valium, xanax) - my point is simply that telling smokers to 'knock it off' isn't so easy for a smoker to do. Hard as hell to quit, insurance doesnt pay for aides to help (and I dont know of one person who stopped due to them). Yes, I could go 2 hours without a cig - but I'd be squirming in my seat. Helps me think - and I need all the help I can get. I am not a thumb twiddler - it quiets my hands and mind. When I go out to dinner, I want to enjoy the entire experience - not just the meal. If it were just the meal, I could order take out. Toledo loses a lot of restaurant business from us - almost all of it, because of this.
posted by starling02 at 10:46 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
Additionally madjack stated: Junta, straight money now, I have never seen someone so good at being wrong. Words fail me. Look, these three cities have horrible economies. All three contain poverty that is absolutely staggering and the most restrictive societies in the US of A.
And yet I will bet I'm the only one of the two of us that have a degree in economics from one of top twenty programs in the country. If NY, Chicago, and LA our doing so bad, as you claim, then why are they doing so well? I spend significant time in both NY and Chicago, not so much LA, but I will tell you, a guy can make a lot of money in both those cities. Nobody can make significant money here. Indeed, I will be leaving Toledo in July, and it looks like I will be going to Chicago or NY, and I will make more in either place.
I'm still on Toledo Talk because I care, and I wish to see Toledoans embrace the new economy. So far, we have failed. We need new ideas to grow our economy, and our public needs to embrace them. I want to see great things from Toledo, because we have the resources to be capable.
posted by junta330 at 11:40 P.M. EST on Fri Oct 20, 2006 #
My only problem Kurt is this: define the "new" economy. The economy is new in so many ways and your stating it so broadly, what are you suggesting Toledo embrace?
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:32 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 21, 2006 #
When I say "new", I mean it's a different economy than what it was 5 years ago, or 10 years ago, etc. The economy is constantly evolving, so what aspect of that are you suggesting be embraced.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 12:35 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 21, 2006 #
By new I mean global and non-manufacturing. You can't really put a time frame on it. The new economy is one of ideas, not traditional hard-work. I hope that answers your question.
posted by junta330 at 01:18 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 21, 2006 #
MikeyA said: “Why not get a couple of Art teachers in the area to give their students credit to going into some of these areas[?]”
YES! All that requires is for the government to sign off on the risk. That should be possible, right? After all, people use the parks all the time without bankrupting levels of government by lawsuits. Some form of standard disclaimer could be issued by the relevant agency to allow the public space used by private persons for a beautification purpose.
Of course, any art object installed into any public space automatically becomes a maintenance obligation or hazard for the government. How is that kind of thing handled?
thenick said: “Who says First Energy needs to be the company to build the wind turbines out in the lake?”
Yes, who indeed? And yet there is still no windmill farm out on the lake (or anywhere else, for that matter, excluding the 3 windmills installed at a site near Rt.6 and BG), and this area is still dominated by First Energy, and electric rates are among the highest in Ohio. What's really stopping the investors? I can only imagine it's because this area is still dominated by First Energy. If it's not a legal restriction, or it's not a restriction related to the pathetic max-ROI-only mentality of what passes for the capitalist class, then it must fall to the influence of First Energy. Their own mentality of maximum-ROI could well be fostering a culture of "competitive exclusion". After all, who could better bribe the PUCO to shape regulations such that only FE is likely to qualify: FE or some entrepreneur?
thenick said: “[For generating wind power on your own,] it's not too hard to build your own wind turbine using sheet metal, gears, and a few old auto parts.”
Alas, wind power increases in effectiveness as a rough function of the square of the height of the windmill tower. Hence, a tower 100FT high should catch x4 more wind (and produce x4 the power) than a tower 50FT high. Putting up a max-height tower in your city yard is not only too short for some real value, but the whipping vanes or blades may cross some building code that denies such threats in municipal yards. I could be wrong about the codes, and as usual I hope to be wrong. However, you are certainly limited as to the height of the tower that you can place in your municipal yard, and that places a certain utile limit on how much power you can really generate ... hence your cost-benefit calculations are particularly restricted.
People in yards as big as those along Airport Highway in Swanton have a great advantage for generating power. Places like Swanton may also be quite liberal in codes for building and land use, which I can only imagine is true due the the shooting ranges and animal pens I see out there.
Mags said: “I suggested to the western townships that their farmlands might be terrific areas for windmill farms (small footprints for the actual posts, good wind, far enough from the lake to not interfer too much with migratory patterns).”
I can't imagine why -- with such small footprints -- that windmills can't form a long line in the wide median strips down roads like I75. That method won't take up any farmland, is along a right-of-way for buried utility runs, is in an area of no hazard to the public (since the roadway itself is not residential and is far more of a hazard), and given the small size of each footprint it shouldn't interfere at all with road projects.
Arrr, Mad Jack the Pirate said: “Seriously, if you want a reality check on this, look at the sculpture at Glendale and the AWT. If it’s still there, it was some idea of Carty’s years ago. The city paid a fortune for this monstrosity[.]”
There's no art at Glendale and the AWT. You mean Harvard and Broadway/River Road. {looks out window} Yes, I see it now. I see it far too often. That's certainly not the art we're talking about, are we? That kind of "art" is corporate art, which is just a "big business" kind of thing whereby some corporation scores some major bank out of some institution with far more disposable income than sense.
CES said: “GZ ignores the fact it's also not illegal to take a dump, but it is illegal to have people pooping in restaurant dining rooms because there are, among other things, health issues at play. The same is true of dumping smoke in said dining rooms. Smokers' rights begin where everyone else's rights end, and they don't end where smokers would like to think they do.”
You know, I've never heard of a shit restaurant, shit lounge, or other shit-esque establishment, where the point was to consume feces. Instead, I see a lot of places where you can consume the standard set of pleasurable consumables: food, alcohol, and tobacco. BTW, are farts illegal? Are farts banned? Isn't a fart effectively just taking a shit right up your nose? What about alcohol breath? Gosh Darnit, I shouldn't have to breathe their emissions!
My point is: Don't you see how far you've gone all retarded in your search for some sort of argument that invalidates public smoking? Smoking is not invalid. Heck, it's PERFECTLY LEGAL.
I asked: “Out of curiosity, how many bowling alleys or bars do you frequent, Junta?”
Junta responded: “Quite a few.”
Well, be sure to inform the proprietors that you don't appreciate the smoking and want it stopped, in order to retain your patronage. Better yet, invest in (or otherwise open) a non-smoking bar, restaurant and bowling alley. But you have no moral right whatsoever to attempt to make all such places non-smoking under a ban ... and that's doubly true since smoking is PERFECTLY LEGAL. Smoking is LEGAL, Junta. Where did you ever learn that banning legal items is morally valid in America's system of open liberties?
Junta said: “If NY, Chicago, and LA our doing so bad, as you claim, then why are they doing so well?”
FOR WHOM? The yuppies in those areas are doing extremely well. However, they contain the areas of the greatest poverty (by quality and quantity) in the USA.
Your fixation on yuppies is getting very irritating, Junta. You're so fixated on them that you're not even bothering to include our factual statements as a part of your argument bases.
Junta said: “Nobody can make significant money here.”
Incorrect. Yuppies are doing quite well in Toledo as usual, albeit they are not as numerous as in the major cities. I was in Boston for 7 years, so I can well claim to have seen my share of yuppie prosperity. Hell, when I pulled down $50K+ in the Boston area, I was a part of it.
Junta said: “We need new ideas to grow our economy, and our public needs to embrace them.”
ONLY of the result is a general and pervasive expansion of the economy -- and NOT if the expansion is concentrated in the elites. Progressivism has to have a wide applicability, or it's not really PROGRESSIVE.
Junta said: “By new [economy] I mean global and non-manufacturing.”
Yeah, I thought so. Then your definition is a GUARANTEED LOSER for most of the population. If you don't manufacture, you're not participating in the very basis of material wealth. As for global, that's another loser for the working class ... unless you're the first to downsize your demands for the price of your rental propery, Junta. I'm more than willing to take more pay cuts -- provided that YOU will then rent a house to me for $200/mo so that I can live modestly inside the narrower scope of my shrunken income. Are you willing to do that, Junta?
If the income-class makes all the concessions, and the capital-class makes none, then we can only call that CLASS WAR. Class war leads almost directly to people actually shooting and bombing each other. Is that what you wanted?
Junta said: “The new economy is one of ideas, not traditional hard-work.”
Ideas can be offshored the easiest of all. That's another loser for the working class.
And if you're really attempting to discredit "hard-work", then you're literally dropping a lot of our jaws. The proceeds of work should not be reserved for the "idea men". The workers deserve a fair share of the proceeds of their labor. WORK creates wealth, not just IDEAS that spark the work. You can literally create wealth without ideas and just by working, but ideas alone are WORTHLESS without execution. Even largely-unplanned labor tends to create material wealth.
Wake up, Junta. Concentration of wealth isn't leading to cultural prosperity. Instead, it's creating ever larger waves of cultural poverty, which is working entirely in line with the arrival of Fascism in America.
posted by GuestZero at 04:32 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 21, 2006 #
Several problems with all of that GZ,
Where did you ever learn that banning legal items is morally valid in America's system of open liberties?
Having a firearm is legal too, but we aren't able to walk into most places with a firearm. If it's a private business, they damn well have the right to deny smoking or not regardless if smoking is legal. I don't agree with a complete ban on all places; smoking should be allowed at the very least in bars, clubs, or bowling alleys past a certain time. But are you really telling me that a private business doesn't have the right to ban smoking at their establishments? Should someone be allowed to smoke a cig when picking up their child at the daycare? Perhaps blow it in one of the kids faces to express your love for your freedom to smoke.
As far as the economy, Toledo needs to stop trying to reel in big manufacturing jobs from the outside and giving them 30 year tax abatements. Toledo needs to focus on individual talents from within and if any breaks go to anyone it should be the city investing in a graduate student at UT whose developing a new technology or something to that effect. Homegrown businesses do more for the economy than anything else. Kurt, your idea that traditional hard work should be out the door is bull and GZ's constant "yuppie" talk is equally bull. What the hell is a "yuppie" to you? To me, it seems like your labeling anyone better off than you as a "yuppie". We need a balance in the economy. We need the "yuppies" at Owens Corning to develop the efficient green technology and we need the manufacturing plants to create them (just an example).
MikeyA said: “Why not get a couple of Art teachers in the area to give their students credit to going into some of these areas[?]”
Of course, any art object installed into any public space automatically becomes a maintenance obligation or hazard for the government. How is that kind of thing handled?
Perhaps we should eliminate all trees and any grass within the city of Toledo because it requires maintenance to trim and cut. I'm sorry, but I don't see any significant maintenance cost that could go into a sculpture or such. I think thats a petty reason to not allow that. Using art students to help beautify the city is a creative and cheap way to achieve this.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 09:15 P.M. EST on Sat Oct 21, 2006 #
T++ said: “Having a firearm is legal too, but we aren't able to walk into most places with a firearm.”
Yes, and that's unconstitutional in the scope of it. The unconstitutional banning of gun rights is not an example of sound public policy, and can't be used to justify ideas of other bans. Guns should be perfectly legal in all public places, including schools. There should be some provision for protecting your right to keep and bear arms while you visit a shop (since you can't just "put it out" while in the shop like you can with a cigarette).
Choose another example.
T++ said: “If it's a private business, they damn well have the right to deny smoking or not regardless if smoking is legal.”
We're not arguing about this; by all indicia we're agreeing.
T++ said: “As far as the economy, Toledo needs to stop trying to reel in big manufacturing jobs from the outside and giving them 30 year tax abatements.”
There's nothing wrong (and in fact, everything right) about the first part. It's the second part that's causing all the trouble. At any rate, although thoroughly blessed by courts, tax abatements should be illegal under the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution ... which specifies equal taxation under the law. Governments in America should not have the right to choose which businesses or individuals get tax abatements, purely on the basis of retention or establishment. If a government wants to perform some sort of tax-cut-sparked economic stimulus, the only dutiful thing it should do is effect a general tax cut in a sector of taxation without regard to the individuals whom it affects -- like a cut in the sales tax, property tax, etc.
T++ said: “Toledo needs to focus on individual talents from within and if any breaks go to anyone it should be the city investing in a graduate student at UT whose developing a new technology or something to that effect.”
City government is in no moral position to make "investments". "Economic development" is just a scam whereby influence is bought and sold like a commodity, and the wealthy and corporations (as well as their vassals, politicians and bankers) become the winners of such action ... while the subject classes (largely the workforce) are progressively victimized by paying more and more of the costs of society.
T++ said: “What the hell is a "yuppie" to you? To me, it seems like your labeling anyone better off than you as a "yuppie".”
{cracks knuckles} I'm soooo glad you asked. I'm always waiting to have this moment in blogs and conversations. {tears of joy}
Yuppies are literally based upon a constituency of Young Urban Professionals. YUP becomes yuppie.
Since the base is young, they tend to think more of the present than the future. That kind of thinking leads to all manner of short-term economic actions, like not saving, and spending lots of money on current consumables. This gives a false (but much vaunted) impression of prosperity, like Maggie's posting of population-shares-by-income gives a false impression of prosperity. The young tend not to have to face potentially ruinous expenses like education of children, home maintenance, and of course medical care. Literally, the yuppie class tends to think of itself as invulnerable.
The urban component of this base is a further disservice to the American way of life. The yuppie class tends to live a city life. Not only is city life not the ONLY way to live, but it's a POOR one at that. There are also suburban and rural modes of living. City living tends to toss a participant into an apartment, surrounded by many artificial materials and radiations. Also, there are fewer disconnected modes of living than that done in an apartment. You can't maintain a garden; you can't structurally modify your living space; you're vulnerable to the actions of other apartment renters nearby; you can't board a relative or otherwise expand your family; and you are unable to be the full tool-user which is able to maintain everything he has through the use of a garage, full set of tools, workbench and large amounts of storage.
The suburban yuppie is little better, since he's largely saddled with a mortgage that is so gapingly enormous that it's economically obvious that he'll not be able to pay off such a mortgage in the timeframes exhibited by the previous generations. My grand-parents built their house (West Toledo) with their own hands and paid off the capital costs in 11 years. Now, 30-yr mortgages are standard, 40-yr mortgages are gaining in popularity, and a banking friend told me about 50-yr loans just the other day. This is not economic freedom or self-sufficiency. Undertaking 30-50 years of payments (note: easily reached in the current environment, considering the existence of 2nd and 3rd mortgages) is far too risky considering the decreasing chances of personal economic stability over that period of time. Literally, people are now spending their ENTIRE working lives under the heel of a bank ... just to "own" that suburban home. (And we're not even talking about condos, which are even less removed from real ownership since you continually owe a large monthly fee to the condo association.)
The final component is professional. This is a further break from the reality of the working class since it implies a strong elitist position of education and work privilege. Professionals are not subject to a lot of America's economic reality. Due to being well paid, their personal finances are too apart from what the blue-collars are facing, and have been facing for a good generation by now. (Of course, with offshoring and outsourcing, this becomes less true with each passing year.)
Now then. The term yuppie has this core, but it does expand to include various microclasses of people who strive to adopt the yuppie mindset and modes of living. Did you buy the most home that could be fit into the payment plan arranged for you by some mortgage officer in a bank? If yes, then you've adopted the yuppie mindset. Did you buy a car on the basis of style, speed or fashionable make and model? If yes, then you've adopted the yuppie mindset. Did you obtain a college degree due to a deep distaste of what your father and/or mother did for their livings while they raised you? If yes ... well, you get the idea by now.
There will always be yuppies. I'm not bothered that they exist. I'm bothered instead that they exist in such numbers when the economy is unable to support them; that, they have such HUGE numbers of imitators; and that, finally, their (largely unsustainable) lifestyles are much lauded in all avenues of public discourse. Literally, our culture is awash in pro-yuppie propaganda. This cultural formation doesn't serve the truth.
If I had my druthers about it, if a yuppie got on some TV show and started showing off the hand-picked Italian tile floors in his condo, the show's host would then turn to the co-host and say "that tile is nice, but it's too bad most of us can't afford such an extravagence". Ostentatious displays of (largely feigned) wealth used to be frowned upon. Where did all that sensible restraint go?
posted by GuestZero at 01:02 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 22, 2006 #
GZ, I appreciate the response. To some extent I agree with you but I think you over-generalize the "young professional" among other things I don't quite agree with. Although I do agree with you that Kurt does speak as an elitist wannabe.
My problem is this.
The final component is professional. This is a further break from the reality of the working class since it implies a strong elitist position of education and work privilege. Professionals are not subject to a lot of America's economic reality. Due to being well paid, their personal finances are too apart from what the blue-collars are facing, and have been facing for a good generation by now. (Of course, with offshoring and outsourcing, this becomes less true with each passing year.)
Why do you hold their status against them? Are you asking everyone be paid the minimum wage and strive no more than a HS diploma and a GED? I don't work in manufacturing or in a job working with my hands (trade job) because it's not my interests (and my Dad forced me to go to college because he didn't like not having options when he was threatened to be laid off from his tool and die job). I go to school for computers because I love working with them. But don't hold my college education and my interests in a "professional" profession against me. I work just as hard as the blue collar man himself; working long hours in research and development of solutions for enterprise systems. I'm a programmer and I create software in the same manner that an auto manufacturer would build a car.
You label people who choose to buy car's based on style as an elitist. With that justification, I could label people who choose to smoke based on the 'cool' factor or the 'pleasure' factor as dirtballs because I view it as disgusting. (Not my opinion, just an i.e.)
The only elitist comments I hear on this website are the ones from yourself. You hold a class of citizens above another one because of your obvious distaste for them. The white collar man is no better or worse than the blue collar man and vice versa. I think you take your distaste for the "yuppie" a bit too far.
On the topic of urban too -- I grew up with the idea of wanting to live in the city. Why you ask? Well because my sister's and I grew up in Sylvania where community and culture is hard to find if it even existed at all. Urban living presents a place where the focus is on mingling, meeting people, entertainment, etc. Would I have planned to live the urban life for long, probably not. I would have liked to live it out for a few years until I felt it was time to settle down and start a family.
However, that never came about as I'm 22 and still in college (about to graduate with two associates in Information Systems and Computer Programming at Owens CC) and I have a fiance with a 3 year old step son. In short, I won't be moving to a big city and I won't be living in a downtown because I want a lawn for my kid's to play in, a garage to work on my computers, etc.
Few more questions for clarity, am I an elitist for going to college, striving to learn, and using that knowledge to create things and develop things? Are you an elitist for having a computer, since that can be considered a luxury items that many "lower class" citizen's can't afford? What constitute's an elitist? Is it somebody who talks above someone or a class, is it a way of living that is higher than someone else's or a class? Is it anyone who lives any life outside the very basic means of surviving? Define it more specifically for me. I'll agree with you if it's more specific to someone speaking above someone else, but any more than that and I might have to disagree.
*I realize my post might be all over the place, and I apologize for that*
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 03:02 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 22, 2006 #
And also on a sidenote to Kurt, I don't mean to personally attack you (sorry for the above) as I can't judge your character based soley on internet conversations. But based on what I've read from you, you do often seem to come off like you are better than other people. I go to college for the degree's to learn, to develop my skill, and for options regarding job choice. My impression of your comments is you use your degree or degree in progress as being more "educated" than someone or better than others. I have a problem with that.
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 03:27 A.M. EST on Sun Oct 22, 2006 #
No problem T++, I just do that to get a rise out of people like GZ. I don't really think a degree makes one person better than another.
posted by junta330 at 12:39 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 22, 2006 #
City living tends to toss a participant into an apartment, surrounded by many artificial materials and radiations.
Seriously? In Toledo, you think the yuppies live in apartments? Maybe for a year or two, but housing in this town is so cheap that if you don't buy a house, you're throwing away your money.
And you're bitching about people living in apartments when just a few months ago you tried to rip on timault for being a property owner. So which is it?
This is a further break from the reality of the working class since it implies a strong elitist position of education and work privilege.
Obtaining a college degree makes me an elitist? If that's what you consider elitist, then I'm the most proud elitist you've ever known. That piece of paper represents several years of hard work and sacrifice for the sole purpose of bettering myself.
We don't need a less educated populus, we need a highly educated country that can outthink the competition coming from overseas. The Chinese and the Indians are coming, and as I've said before: They don't want to work for us, they don't even want to be us. They want to crush us.
Due to being well paid, their personal finances are too apart from what the blue-collars are facing, and have been facing for a good generation by now.
What is your big hangup with people making more money than you? Long ago I realized I wasn't going to make as much as my friends who were attending Law or Med School. My advice to you: Get over it. If you're unhappy about this, find another job that pays more, even if it means leaving Toledo. But don't think that because your employer is screwing you, everyone should face the same hardships.
Did you obtain a college degree due to a deep distaste of what your father and/or mother did for their livings while they raised you?
Where do you come up with this crap?
Ostentatious displays of (largely feigned) wealth used to be frowned upon.
When where they frowned upon? A large chunk of the post-war economy in the '50s was fueled by consumer demand. The same thing happened in the '20s.
posted by thenick at 03:16 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 22, 2006 #
Good points thenick. We should all be as educated as possible, but education doesn't always mean in the form of a college degree. Education could simply mean reading up on the different issue's up for vote this November rather than blindly voting for them. It could mean just reading a book on welding or on woodworking, and in my case I read tech books up the ass. Degree's and certifications are good to show you can perservere through classes and finish something you started as well as having some degree of technical knowledge. What's elitist about that?
posted by ToledoPlusPlus at 04:39 P.M. EST on Sun Oct 22, 2006 #
I'd like to talk about some things we can do. Short term. Things like getting our city services on track and holding people accountable for stuff we already PAY for and aren't getting anything out of.
I guess after reading all this I think we don't have short term goals as a community. Our community LEADERS do and they aren't necessarily working on the issues the people would like addressed.
For instance; what about a citizen's budget review and performance analysis of the police and fire departments? How many unsolved crimes, how long is the average response time - do we have unsolved arsons - how much does the annual budget boil down on a cost per basis?
Most of us don't know what each position's responsibilities are. And because of that there is no accountability for performance in our local government.
Wouldn't it be nice if there WAS a specific point of accountability - a point in time, at a specific place where arrests, crimes and costs were reviewed? Just using the police force for example. What if there was a panel of community leaders who was qualified to review these things and report their findings back to us? Something like there were X number of (major crime type breakdown) X number of arrests. The budget was X dollars in that time period and resulted in X number of adminstrators, X number of patrolman available on the street.....
posted by katie82640 at 07:52 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
Katie - that kind of information does exist. Crime stats are made available at the Blockwatch meetings for each Blockwatch's area.
As for the extended review - that is done through the local Weed and Seed efforts. Most of the Community Dev. Programs have a coordinator for this. I know for N. Toledo we have meetings monthly to review the stats, the progress and discuss budget issues regarding personnel, equipment and grant availability.
posted by DoknowDocare at 08:30 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
but housing in this town is so cheap that if you don't buy a house, you're throwing away your money.
Not for everyone. (lets not forget the WORKING CLASS POOR)(and no im not picking a fight but we need to keep them in mind)
The Chinese and the Indians are coming, and as I've said before: They don't want to work for us, they don't even want to be us. They want to crush us.
Cant argue with you there.
posted by tm at 09:16 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
Madjack said: Junta, straight money now, I have never seen someone so good at being wrong.
How many times do I have to tell you that I'm always right?
Sorry. My memory isn't what it used to be.
I rather like GZ's definition of YUPPIE. Kind of sums it all up, doesn't it?
Clearly the smoking issue is at an impasse. The one common denominator that I've observed regarding the smoking issue is that the three camps do not appear to be divided by the smoking issue alone, but seem to be divided by those who enjoy governmental control, those who want freedom, and those who are apathetic. The third group being the largest, and generally not having much of an opinion on anything is what concerns me the most. If citizens are not motivated to take a stand in some fashion, what good are they? Let them renounce their citizenship and move to Canada, where their every need will be fulfilled by the Canadian government.
As for me, I want freedom.
posted by madjack at 10:33 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
Just for the record on my comment with art teachers giving their students credit I initially had murals, landscape art (for example schrubs clipped to look like animals) and those type of things. I really hadn't thought of sculptures but it's nice to know people can expand on my ideas to get others which I think is the intention behind this thread.
posted by MikeyA at 10:46 A.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
This is good info doknow. I'll have to follow up. We don't have an active blockwatch here. And when I was downtown and at the Scott Park stations they had none of the flyers.
posted by katie82640 at 01:29 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
Solar electricity is most surprisingly efficient here in Toledo. Somewhere over 80% of Arizona. The needed energetic solar radiation gets thru our standard cloud cover.
I look forward to the distillation of all the ramblings above. Thanks for the topic.
posted by robertbrundage at 07:10 P.M. EST on Mon Oct 23, 2006 #
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