New version of Toledo Talk

Ceramic Tile Nightmare - Sorry if this is a little off topic for Toledo Talk. I want to share this experience for the possibility that it might save someone else.

I am remodeling a bathroom and layed 3 x 3 ceramic tiles. While at Lowe's picking up the tile and supplies an employee asked if we needed any help. I told him that I just needed some grout and was trying to determine how much to buy. After asking me about the size of the job, the salesman picked up a tub of pre-mixed grout, handed it to me and said "this is what I would reccomend". Pre-mixed grout I thought. Never used it. I have always mixed my own, but this would be easier and this guy must know what he is talking about since he works in the flooring section.

Grouting the floor with this stuff proved difficult. It took me almost five hours to do a small half-bath. At the time I was thinking that my difficulty could have been due to the fact that these were small tiles, and I have only worked with the big twelve inch size. Maybe there was a different method for small tiles? The grout wanted to adhere to anything but the grout lines. I finished up about 1 AM.

The next day afternoon, hardly being able to stand after spending 5 hours hunched over the night before, I looked into the bathroom to admire my hard work. To my horror, the grout had shrunk, cracked and was discolored. Let's just say that my wife had to stop my from taking a sledge hammer to the floor.

Not sure if the fault was mine, or the grout's, I called a friend who is in the commercial construction business. Here is a summary of what he said.

This was not the first time he had heard of this. Pre-mixed grout is not the same as the grout you mix yourself. Sanded grout, for example, is mainly a mix of portland cement, sand, and a color additive. In other words, it is cement. There is no such thing as pre-mixed cement with a shelf life of more than an hour. Pre-mixed grout is some kind of organic substance that does not have the same properties. It should never be used, especially on a floor, since it does not have the same strength as real grout. Everyone in the industry knows this, including the do-it-your-self home stores. It exists as a scam to make money from people who do not know any better.

I spent about ten hours the next weekend digging out the fake grout so I could re-grout with the real stuff. By the time I was finished, my hands had sores, blisters, and were bleeding in a couple spots. Grouting with the real stuff took about an hour and a half, compared to the five hours with pre-mixed. Lowes and home depot both sell this garbage. I am not sure if HD pushes it like it was pushed on me at Lowe's, but in my opinion they should both be ashamed. I am sure Menard's has it too.

Thanks Lowes. I lost my receipt, but honestly, getting my thirty some dollars back would not redeem you in my eyes.
posted by nick44 to home improvement at 12:32 P.M. EST     (17 Comments)

Comments ...

Too bad you didn't ask first, Nick! My husband will never use that stuff.......AGAIN! Ha!

Also, be careful when doing any home improvements that must be inspected. HD and Lowes sell many things that are not approved by the Toledo and/or Lucas County inspections. Yes, we learned that the hard way, too.
posted by aperson at 12:52 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 17, 2006     #

Sorry about your troubles, Nick. I never get involved in home improvement projects myself, unless the project involves busting something up. I'm great at that!
posted by madjack at 01:33 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 17, 2006     #

Nick - THANK YOU for sharing this! I would have fallen into the same dilemma had I not read your post. This is our tiling weekend and we have been discussing the possibility of using pre-mixed grout. Now I can assure you that we won't be doing that.

Sorry to hear you had such a rough time with it, but commend you on not going back to Lowe's and committing mayhem! Good luck on future projects!
posted by DoknowDocare at 02:02 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 17, 2006     #

Nice. I was hoping this would stop atleast one person from trying this stuff. I feel better already. My wife won't let me back into Lowe's until she knows I am over it. I am. Plus I always have my fantasies as consolation- forcing the sales guy to perform the century club with pre-mixed grout helped me get through.
posted by nick44 at 02:11 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 17, 2006     #

I think this is a nice ToledoTalk topic.

Thanks for the warning. Although I don't have a tiling project in the near future, I will make a mental note.

I think there is a whole industry out there of making products geared towards the DIY's. I personally find these products inferior the the real deal.

An example that comes to mind is the fiberglass tape for drywall seams. The plain old paper tape works so much better and is less expensive! The fiberglass tape causes you to put on heavier coats which causes you more work and doesn't save any time. Totally counter-productive. That's just my opinion...

By the way, all of you DIY-ers should check out Menards on Airport Highway west of Spring Meadows. This place is awesome and puts Home Depot and Lowe's to shame. Some things they have less of a selection on, but most things have a nice selection and they sell products the other places don't. Kind of like a toy store for men, and they have candy! lol
posted by lloyd at 04:05 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 17, 2006     #

See. I did not know about the paper tape. I just gutted and drywalled my kitchen, and used the fiberglass tape. Your right, what is the point of having something thicker to mud over.

I also agree about Menard's being superior, having better prices, and having candy is never a bad idea.
posted by nick44 at 04:35 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 17, 2006     #

Menard's sells cabin and house kits.

Can you imagine how much fun it would be to get a bunch of friends together and try and build a cabin?
posted by lloyd at 04:45 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 17, 2006     #

I don't know how much advice I'd take from a Home Depot/Lowes employee. I'm not knocking them, but they are sales people, not construction types.

I'm an union electrician, mostly I work on higher end houses. Here's my experience with the home improvement stores.

Some homeowners buy thier lighting fixtures from Lowes, etc, try and save a buck. Undercounter lights really stick out. I put some in that came from Lowes. They were cheap, thin stamped sheet metal, and I had too modify them-they didn't have any method for grounding. The other fixtures aren't terrible, but they have "selling pionts" that are a bother for me but make the buyer think they are getting something special. If a part is missing it's try and tell the homeowner, who will try and tell the salesman, who will attempt to get the proper part.

Professional lighting stores carry quality fixtures. If something's missing I can call Suzy at wherever store, she understands exactly what I need and takes care of it. I'd name names but don't wanna be a schill.

A lot of the stuff sold at home improvemnt stores are of iffy quality. They sell to homeowners and not professionals. If I supply and warranty a part it's going to be quality.

But the bottom line is it's all about money, pretty much.
posted by Bruno at 05:13 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 17, 2006     #

Lloyd, I checked out the kits. They really blew my mind. I was envisioning finding some rural property in Michigan and building my own cabin. I am not much of the outdoorman myself, but this would be the ultimate experience to do with friends or family that hunt or fish together.

As far as the employees in home stores, they seem to be hit or miss. There is a guy who works at the home depot on Secor, in the hardware and tools department who know his stuff. He has given me good advice more than once. I don't know his name, but he is probably around sixty with a beard, glasses, and longer hair.

Otherwise, not knowing what you are buying, can be dangerous.
posted by nick44 at 05:36 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 17, 2006     #

Back in the fifties, I'm not sure which store, Sears, JC Penny, Montgomery Wards, but one of them sold full sized homes from a catalouge. They had several sizes to chose from and along with instructions, there were numbered tabs to assist in the construction.

My grandafther's brother got one of these homes and as far as ten years ago, I heard it was still standing.

Home Improvement tips? I have a couple. When working on any electrical project, make sure the breaker you flip "silences" the area which you're going to repair. I had an instance or two when living on Chase St to find a couple of fixtures wired into the next room where the walls join up and were not serviced by the breaker I disengaged.

When your sink's water flow seems restricted, remove the cap at the end of the faucet and try to remove the calcium buildup within the screens and replace.

Use an old pair of nylons when draining your hot water tank to clean the calcium buildup within. It keeps the calcium from making a big mess where the water comes out. And make sure you flip the breaker, otherwise you'll burn out an element.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 04:56 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 18, 2006     #

I need to do something with the wiring in my house. I was thinking about hiring an electrician to replace my fuse box with a breaker box, but would rather not have the whole house rewired. I don't think I have the money right now to devote to have the whole house rewired.
posted by nick44 at 12:06 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 18, 2006     #

Hey, Nick, aren't homes fun? Wheee!

Since I'm mechanicially inclined, the kind of stuff you ran into doesn't bother me. On top of that, I harbor significant disdain for hiring pros, hence tend to rely on myself to plan and perform work, leading to the inevitable screwup that only I can take blame for.

However, it's good to see that you're intent on getting it right. The worst thing for a dangerously-close-to-competent handyman like myself to see is the various forms of "Harry Homeowner" work done around here. Mr "Harry Homeowner" tends to screw up his work so badly that he feels compelled to leave it in a half-constructed state out of some sort of secret shame.

The wiring issue you're running into is a Toledoan favorite. Just last night I got disgusted with a broken light switch and replaced it. I had to deal with that old cloth-wrapped 2-wire stuff. The landlord has had to shelve several times the idea of upgrading this crap, due to the sheer expense involved. Since it's a home involving a rental unit, he's said that the city would force him to obtain a commercial contractor for the job. You can only imagine how much money is going to be involved. (He's also too honest a man to get the work done without a permit.)

However, replacing fuse boxes is a quick job which many contractors even issue coupons for. You should grab some of those coupon flyers and packages that come in the mail periodically, which is where I occasionally see these ads.
posted by GuestZero at 02:27 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 19, 2006     #

hiring an electrician to replace my fuse box....but would rather not have the whole house rewired.

Those are two different jobs, a service change doesn't necessarily mean a rewire. Might need to add a few things, that dosn't involve rewiring the whole house.

Knob and tube wiring is usually fine. Problems don't arise until you mess with it, it's old and falls apart. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Most older homes don't have knob and tube-if you want too go by the definition. Most old homes have the same cloth covered wire, but it's in a flexible metal covering inside the wall. The metal covering usually carries the ground.

Harry Homeowner generally doesn't do a bad job, so long as he does little things. He over does things because he wants too make sure it's right. That doesn't mean if your Uncle watched This Old House once he's qualified. One example, we allowed the homeowner to build the electrical service-he wanted too keep costs down. Make a long story short everything in the house that should've been grouned-anything electrical that's metal-had 120 volts on it. And it had been like this for a week.

The worst (usually) electricians are the small remodeling companies where one or two guys do everything, including the mechanical stuff. They know enough to make things work, but not enough to make things right. Not all of them, just some.

The free breaker box coupon isn't that great of a savings. 100 amp breaker boxes are cheap, especially at a contractors price. If anythings given away free, the cost of it will just be added somewhere else. The biggest expense is the union electrician putting it in because he has retirement plans, and his kids have excellent medical coverage.

Legal disclaimer: Don't forget, this is the internet. Take any advice with a grain of salt.
posted by Bruno at 09:32 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 19, 2006     #

I would like to try most projects myself. I won't touch electrical though. I appreciate the advice as I will usually try to gather as much info. as I can find before talking to a contractor.

My house was built in 1937. I bought it fom the original owner if you can believe that. There were actually features of my house that never been replaced- original linoleum flooring in the kitchen, carpet from the 50's etc... The place was such a disgusting pit, that we had to spend a month cleaning before we could even move in. I did a total tear down and replacement of the shingles myself, installed new gutters, rebuilt the flat roof on the garage that had caved in, removed all of the ivy (with roots that exceeded 3 inces in diameter), gutted the kitchen and re-drywalled, replaced the windows just to mention some of the work. And I have had ownership for less than a year. The only thing I contracted out was the window replacement. I chose Wallside for that. They did a great job for a really low price. If anyone has questions about windows let me know. I can tell you what to expect from the local companies.

Anyway, I made a huge commitment when I bought my current house. I am definitely an amateur when it comes to home improvement, but it makes a nice hobby for someone who sits at a desk all day at work.
posted by nick44 at 02:42 P.M. EST on Sun Feb 19, 2006     #

It's heartening to see a home-owner take such a personal, direct interest in refurbishing the home. Many more people should be doing what you're doing, Nick.
posted by GuestZero at 05:34 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006     #

Thanks man. It's all worth it.
posted by nick44 at 07:22 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 24, 2006     #

It would be amazing how much nicer Toledo would look if people just cut their grass, pulled their weeds, and picked up their garbage.

(and avoid painting their house colors from the mis-tint section at Home Depot)
posted by lloyd at 07:43 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 24, 2006     #

<< Older Lucas County Young Democrats and UT Coll...    |    Ceramic Tile Nightmare Newer >>

This is an old topic and is no longer allowing comments.