Mis-allocated job bank funds? You're kidding!!! That can't be so...
PQX...is all handled on the UP and UP...we all KNOW THAT...
Contract Books? Who needs them...we're all treated fairly, seniority honored...we all KNOW THAT...
It just keeps getting better and better at Toledo Jeep Corporation...
Good luck Union Wanted...I do hope you find your answers...for me...I am just going to bide my time...and...when I do sign my papers...NEVER LOOK BACK...
posted by MARIELORA at 03:21 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 06, 2005 #
If there truly is an "explosion" in the number of "Appointee's"...I wonder why...these "Appointee's" weren't up and down the lines collecting donations toward the devastation in New Orleans...
I heard...the Union sent a few down to "help out"...yet...no one collected...
Allright...that's it for me...Good luck, Union Wanted...
posted by MARIELORA at 04:03 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 06, 2005 #
They don't want us to get contract books. If we did, then we'd know all the BS deals they made but never told us about.
posted by JeepMaker at 04:08 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 06, 2005 #
Frankly, I don't think they know what they negotiated, think about all the talk regarding borrowing from the future job bank, we have heard, Dan was borrowing 60 million, then we heard Dan was borrowing 30 million, now we're hearing there is not enough funds for sub, yet, Inveress lay off continues as does appointed positions with overtime.
I'm taking each day as it comes, I can't worry about it, though, I hope for Sunday meetings, ask some questions, but, will we get answers?
posted by ajeepthing at 05:30 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 06, 2005 #
well thats it how can you ask our fearless leadership to give you a contract book you should be ashamed to ask don,t you think they have our best intrest at heart ha ha april fools and we were the fools for signing a contract without seeing it first if we act like sheep we need to be fleeced.just don,t vote yes to anything in the future and tell everbody else to do the same.and good luck seeing a contract book in the near future.
posted by jeeper1983 at 07:42 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 06, 2005 #
oh yes one more thing if there is no sub pay it should be set up for seniorty to recieve it and we need to put a end to the inverse layoff program.
posted by jeeper1983 at 07:47 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 06, 2005 #
Let me see if I have this straight:
Your rank and file voted for a contract without seeing the contract beforehand, and in fact haven't even seen the terms up until today?
Are you union members morons, or what? Don't you have any power whatsoever even over your own union mechanisms?
I'm just flabbergasted here. How on earth can you operate a union when -- as far as you know -- your leadership is in complete cahoots with the company?
The things that have been revealed on ToledoTalk about Jeep are chilling my blood. I see the same bullsh*t where I work, but that's Corporate America where I have ZERO power and will be shown the door eventually in favor of a fresh-faced immigrant replacement named Sanjay Gupta or Jose Sanchez. I EXPECT to be lied to and kept in the dark.
Where did union power go?
posted by GuestZero at 10:49 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 06, 2005 #
GuestZero, thankyou for your comment, you hit it right on the nail...we voted a contract in with only having a briefing at Seagate Center, we were told if we voted NO the Jeep (Wrangler) would be moved to Canada or Mexico...
I honestly have come to the conclusion we at Toledo Jeep do not have a Union...the Company pays their wages...and...yes...we are misled by our own REPRESENTATION...
It's SAD...
posted by MARIELORA at 04:32 A.M. EST on Wed Sep 07, 2005 #
Everything said in above topic, has been said in all the other Jeep topics. I do not look forward returning to work, asmuch as I do want my back to gain strength, with all the comments on Jeep, I dread returning to work.
On home page of Toledo Talk, go down to hot topics click the Jeep link, read everything, all of us have already written, over and over. Why continue to write about it again?
UnionWanted, how do you know about job bank funds and no SUB? Didn't you post a Town Meeting at Stickney then another poster commented it was not union sanctioned? Where do you get your information?
We need to vote new union officials from the top on down, the contract, we voted it in, now we have to live with it, I bet most of us enjoyed receiving our $2,000.00 bonus right with Christmas. Now that reality is setting in, there may not be enough jobs for everyone, total choas, didn't Nick Vuich tell all of us, there would be cut-backs, we knew there would be cut-backs, we still voted yes, we have to live with it.
Many posters on the other Jeep topics commented to the job bank funds saying "let the money run out" many posters commented on the waste, appointed positions, overtime, all paid out of job bank, why, write about it again?
posted by lets_talk_serious at 01:55 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 07, 2005 #
UnionWanted, I am not trying to discredit you by my comment of your posting here on Toledo Talk a Town Meeting with Dan at Stickney, that another poster commented was never union sanctioned.
I just don't want the people to become upset that there may not be job bank funds for SUB, should this comment of the SUB may be a RUMOR that possibly the town meeting was, too, a RUMOR?
We don't need RUMORS, there's so many changes coming up for all of us work-wise, PLEASE no rumors!
posted by lets_talk_serious at 02:20 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 07, 2005 #
GuestZero, I would not say that the union members are morons… perhaps more like gullible and fearful. When voting on a new contract there has to be trust that our leaders are representing us for our best interests. We did not see the contract in full, but we were given a 15-page summary of highlights, to use to help us make an informed decision. As of today, we still haven’t received our contract books.
Now, with our union forming joint committees along with joint funding, temptations arise, and abuse follows. Some people paid out of our ESS/SUB funds may not even work here.
Our jeep unit has about 300 active and retired members controlling the interests of about 4500 members. You often see signs of this discontent by frequent turn over of our elected officials in the media. Newly elected officials come to office with the popular ideas of change that got them elected. Thy soon succumb to the dark side which controls all aspects of the local union units. You see the 300 think they know what is best for the majority. If we had more transparency and accountability of what goes on with our union, I am sure this post would not be here today.
Right know we get to watch our plant double in size, the jobs we do know will be performed by suppliers in the new addition of the plant and we will triple the production numbers with one third less members. We have a letter from the corporation that keeps the Toledo Jeep Complex open until at least Sept. 14, 2007, when new ESS funds will be renegotiated.
Lets see how the Local will try to sell our Unit out on this. Next, we will have suppliers running all our Paint & Body shops. The lesson here is: Be your own Local.
lets_talk_serious, You must read todays’ FREE PRESS “Jobs bank is at risk”
Delphi tries to cut program that pays laid-off workers
September 7, 2005 BY MICHAEL ELLIS FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER
posted by UnionWanted at 05:12 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 07, 2005 #
People are fustrated! Inverse isn't ditributed fairly!! There are some highly intelligent people on this site! Which is why I come back hopeing someone has the magic bullet so that I can figure a way to fight this for my own peace of mind. My hands have been tied ever since I hired in. I don't know who will listen but I'm happy to know that we all aren't morons we just can't figure out what to do to stop our demise. As someone else wrote "to be informed and aware, is the best defense agaist the psychological assaut upon our senses".
Yes we are slaves to huge coporations.
Yes job outsourcing is a nightmare.
Yes this is an insane economic environment.
Yes the company does have us employees sidetracted with overtime.
Ya know what pisses me off I felt so bad/guilty for those people push out of their houses and especically the man with the auto part/repair shop and that land was for SUPPLIER PARK the people we our losing our jobs to.
Oh here's another one... Why dose our Union leadership have their meetings 10 feet from labor relations? With the door open...
posted by jeepgal at 05:24 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 07, 2005 #
What's on this page? Looks like publicly acccessible information to me. http://www.rts-tech.com/meatballs/
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 05:38 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 07, 2005 #
Awesome job Bbcmjeep43! Thank you!
posted by jeepgal at 05:53 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 07, 2005 #
Bbcmjeep43, thankyou, for the link to our future!
posted by MARIELORA at 07:21 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 07, 2005 #
I have read through the 168 pages of documents, and with the exception of the unpublished letters, this contract appears to be correct. This was compared with a released version of the contract.I did not see any other agreements. Remember that the Chrysler National Agreement also pertains to some aspects of our contract as it is referred to on various pages. There may also be continuances from the 1997 and 2002 Agreements. These should be included in any contract book.You can give thanks to the man that put this together here. I did not want to post this, until I was able to compare it with a released version. I take no credit for this. Nor do I accept any liability.
To be informed and aware is your right as an American Citizen.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 07:54 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 07, 2005 #
Bbcmjeep43, Thankyou again, I had heard there was a summary on the internet sometime ago...yet, this link you provided is the real deal...thankyou...
posted by MARIELORA at 07:59 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 07, 2005 #
Bbcmjeep43
What do you think about us not receiving our Agreement Books after 2 years?
Would you feel cheated?
http://futureoftheunion.com/?p=295
posted by UnionWanted at 05:09 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 08, 2005 #
It seems to me...Bbcmjeep43 felt we all were being cheated...not having contract books...he went to all the trouble to read all 168 pages before providing the link for all of us...
quote, Bbcmjeep43 said...it's our right as American Citizens!
posted by MARIELORA at 05:48 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 08, 2005 #
Bbcmjeep43-thanks for the contract information, greatly appreciate it!
UnionWanted-I saw no relation to the Delphi job bank article-to our sub pay for downweeks-.
Please explain.
posted by ajeepthing at 06:41 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 08, 2005 #
Bbcmjeep43 you are the man now let me tell you that I wish the rest of the mamby,pamby, chiken, shit people in that place had half the balls you do we would not be in the mess we are in thank you for all your hard work.
posted by jeeper1983 at 07:24 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 08, 2005 #
OH thank you UnionWanted for bringing this to light sorry about the way I put it in my first blog but sometimes I get so upset with the whole deal.and have for years now been telling everybody at work about what we are going to face in the near future,only to hear that im crazy or a radical.well this country and this union both need radicals to wake up the public to what a raw deal we have.
posted by jeeper1983 at 07:30 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 08, 2005 #
To Unionwanted,
To answer your question simply without getting wordy. No. I don't feel cheated.Why? Because my expectations are low as it is.That in itself, is a sad commentary to make.This is not the first time we have had to wait for our contract books, beyond any reasonable time frame. This has happened several times.In different administrations.This is a pattern. Perhaps the next time, this will be given a higher priority.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 10:38 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 08, 2005 #
I have to ask...is there an OATH taken when our Representatives are elected into office?
Misleading and lying to members is UNETHICAL BEHAVIOR...it should NOT be tolerated...
Truth and Justice...the words written on the curtain at the Local...whose TRUTH...whose JUSTICE?
jeepgal, you mentioned "silver bullet" you hope there is someone here on "Toledo Talk" that will help...I guess, there's possiblities with that happenning...the Union monitors "Toledo Talk"...
lets_talk_serious...I am FINALLY finished with this...you're right in what you say...it all has been said over and over...
posted by MARIELORA at 06:57 P.M. EST on Sat Sep 10, 2005 #
The following post a poster made this comment to me here on "Toledo Talk" thought this was a good ENDING for me on the Jeep Issues...
-----------------------------------------------
Two-tier wages are here to stay. As I recall, Marielora, you're the one who said your kid or someone was yelling about your generation taking and taking and taking... well you overreached, and the companies are claiming they can't afford labor at the rate they're paying you (whether or not they're lying is another discussion) and therefore their options are to go elsewhere or to go to two-tier wages. Frankly, you and the rest of your fellow auto-workers ought to zip the lip and be damn thankful you are making what you got now, because while you took $40+/hr home combined in wages and benefits, you saw to it that your kids's jobs were sent away when NAFTA was approved.
So what do you do now? Same thing you did through the 80s and 90s: bitch about the union being corrupt, bitch about the politicians screwing you, bitch about your jobs.... yet your kids would be damn happy with half your pay and benefits, and your kids know that you screwed them over because you sat back instead of actually taking responsibility. You let the corrupt bastards into the union. You let them get in bed with management. I know you can run for shop chair and so on, but none of you do it and none of you raise a stink in any sort of coordinated effort... you just bitch instead.
What's Lloyd Mahaffey doing? Financing/running Jack Ford's campaign... and J.Fo's been all talk and no do. The gun nuts among you vote Republican even if they agree with everything else a Democrat says because your precious right to arm yourself to the teeth comes before your kids... you'll even give up the rest of the Bill of Rights via the PATRIOT Act for it.
posted by MARIELORA at 07:31 P.M. EST on Sat Sep 10, 2005 #
There are answers.The answers for what hurts us, may come from a combination of events. Answers may come from direct actions, by concerned individuals.For one thing I believe, is that what is currently wrong with our lack of union power is a result of our own apathy.We have been comfortable for too long.We have taken much for granted.The truth is that we cannot take anything for granted.The answers lie within ourselves.To find answers, I must first know the questions.
One question would be, why do we feel powerless? The answer could be any number, or possible combinations of things.Change can start at the bottom, and work towards the top.I myself, would like to stop the wholesale giveaway of American manufacturing to foreign lands.I would like to ensure some balanced and fair trade agreements.What do I need to do to achieve this? To start with, people must have a place to talk, with those who have common ideas and goals.People must also be ready to help and assist in the creation of a new form of partnership.For the leadership of our country is not always going to help us.We can create new leadership who share our goals and ideals.This would require a base of support, and like-minded people.This requires some form of action.
Blaming people does not usually produce any lasting results.We need to find the people who would replace the ones being blamed. Or develop those people.Take George Bush for instance.I personally do not feel he truly cares about the working people of this country.I also know that he would be able to have no effect on us if he did not have a base of support and a lot of help.To counter this, I should have a base of support, and common cause with those who share core ideas with me.I do have a plan to educate people so they may make an informed choice on who to vote for. Government policy directly affects all our lives.Why does the corporation have so much control nowadays? Because Government policy has allowed this.Your only choice is to get active in politics, and work for change. And change may not come immediately. It may take a very long time.My goal therefore, is to do what I can to help make this union a better place.To change what I can about myself that is negative and destructive. And to do what I can to help educate and inform any who may listen.I am working on this goal as we speak.I am writing a book which will be finished relatively soon.I am also doing some other things to change my own environment, and further my education.
I am nobody perfect.I truly know and acknowledge that I make mistakes.I also realize that I am a determined person.I have no dreams of personal glory. I would not regard a position in the union, to be a desirable option at this time.I know what these people have to go through, and it is extremely hard. Many people have asked me if I was going to run for any position.I would only do this for the right reasons.I would tell people the truth, and tell them also what needed to be done to achieve success. I would tell them to stop arguing, and be happy we have a job. We have a base from which we can branch out and develop.This sounds like the wrong thing to say but it's true.I cannot be a people pleaser, and expect results.If our country was at war like it is now, I would not push a tax cut. I would tell the people they have to pay more taxes.The consequences of not paying more taxes during wartime is the massive ballooning of the federal budget deficit. We now owe billions of dollars to the Chinese Communists. http://byrd.senate.gov/speeches/byrd_speeches_2004_november/byrd_speeches_2004_november_li/byrd_speeches_2004_november_li_0.html For those who would like a history lesson. These are the same Communists that slaughtered our troops in the Korean War, 1950-1953. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/korea.htm This is beyond pathetic.This easy way out is truly going to hurt our nation.The bill must be paid sooner or later. Are we going to shove it off onto our children who will be lucky to make half of what we do? Too many people, making easy and selfish choices, have helped lead us into this mess.The only way out is hard work, grit, and honesty. Coupled with a boatload of determination. People vote for who promises them the most. We need to vote for who promises the people they will be told the truth.
Yes it's much easier for me to be on the line. And the posters here are right.The time to just bitch about everything is past. What about doing something about it? I go to almost every union meeting. And the turnout is pathetic.The same people on the line arguing, and demanding changes, are the ones I never see there.I have taken it upon myself to ask people to come there with me every time. I had some ideas to change the format a little bit, because it really is boring as hell how it's set up. I hope to present myself well, and to do credit to my union and my country. No matter what position I may be in.I myself need to change some things about me. For although I am a decent person. I can also be cruel and sarcastic.I need to work on that. I don't want to use this forum to get into any person's problems. I do not feel that would be helpful at all. It would lead to an all out public battle right here.I will stick with ideas and hope to have some impact there.If we want this union to achieve solidarity and strength, We need some new ideas.We need to change the way we deal with problems and situations.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 09:05 P.M. EST on Sat Sep 10, 2005 #
Bbcmjeep43, thankyou, I do want to learn...my daughter struggles...it kills me to watch what we have left for them, our children...
I will get over this feeling of betrayal I have for our Chairman and Vice Chairman...I believe you would be an excellent Representative...
...you're very intelligent and detailed with your explanations and ideas...and...caring...I see all of that in you...and...have NO IDEA who you are.
You are CORRECT...union meetings are BORING...
yet, I will be there Friday...and...I will vote yes when you ask for donations toward the Northwest Strikers.
Thankyou, again for all your time...
posted by MARIELORA at 09:37 P.M. EST on Sat Sep 10, 2005 #
marielora, you're almost home free, do as you said in an earlier post, bide your time. Yes, I know it "kills" you to watch your daughter "struggle" she "struggles" with so many others.
Bbcmjeep43, I agree with- marielora-you would be an excellent representative and she's being nice by not detailing her feelings on Jeep Unit's representatives, she has stated in posts, we all know how she feels of the company paying the union representatives, it is a true conflict of interest, I agree with her when she says "it makes no sense, other than a smart move on the companies part" Let me ask you this Bbcmjeep43, do you believe it is a true conflict of interest having union representatives wages paid by the company? I'm with -marielora- on that one, it doesn't make sense.
Union meetings are boring, I have attended a few, I also agree with posters who said 15 minute question and answer period is not enough, we are given a quick line with each question, Bbcmjeep43, I was at the union meeting when -marielora- asked Dan Henneman: Why he misled her to believe buy-outs would continue on schedule, why, he has left all the ones waiting, waiting in limbo. He stood at the podium during the readings of minutes, looking down laughing at her, it made me sick, what kind of respect does that show? He has none, therefor, I have none for him.
marielora, "truth and justice" it's all coming apart for them, Bbcmjeep43 can write them books after books with ideas to negotiate a contract and what now, it doesn't matter, we will continue to see outsourcing, wage-cuts and will likely follow suit with GM with cuts in job bank and pension. It's the sad truth.
Lloyd Mahaffey along with local 12 and the Cap Committee, voted to back Jack Ford. The local's membership was not included in this vote.
Oh we are upset and worried in Toledo, Ohio and yes we all sat back while of it was leaving, allowing all decisions to be made by others and now, everyone blames George Busch and Nick Vuich here at Toledo, Jeep, isn't that absurd, wake up, Bill Clinton is NAFTA and Nick Vuich grabbed the best deal offerred for us in Toledo and we're damn lucky to have it, the Chinese, Mexicans would gladly build that vehicle for much less, the Canadians too with socialized medicine this saves employers.
Bbcmjeep43, I appreciated all your research, I am happy you are writing a book, but, we are into this and it's going to continue, until, the middle-class is wiped out book or no book.
Thankyou.
posted by lets_talk_serious at 10:52 A.M. EST on Sun Sep 11, 2005 #
lets_talk_serious, you are correct when you say, I am nice to, Bbcmjeep43,...his first post on "Toledo Talk" was a detailed nice talk regarding, "some people should be avoided" I was sure he was speaking of journalists, I knew there were journalists on this site, talk radio hosts, etc., yet he was nice..
I respect, Bbcmjeep43's, research on "outsourcing"...yet, I backed off with using "CONCESSIONS"...I could see I was upsetting him, though, "CONCESSIONS" is a REALITY will all may be forced to face.
With the "NorthWest Strike"...I disagree with this Strike...yet, Bbcmjeep43, cares deeply for the people that are striking...so yes, let the Union give the Strikers dollars...
It is a true conflict of interest having union rep's.,paid by the Company...and...it is UNETHICAL practices to mislead and lie to members as our rep's., have... I will always believe this...again, I will not dwell on this, Bbcmjeep43, is a caring, intelligent poster, trying very hard to find answers researching history...atleast, he is trying...
The Cap Concil voted to endorse Jack Ford, I do NOT agree with this, there should have been a Member vote...or at the very least, wait until after the primaries. I am voting for Carty!
I will "bide" what time I have left at Jeep, "Toledo Talk" provided the attention I felt needed by our Committee...that's WHY I emailed "Toledo Talk" to our vice-chairman in June...
posted by MARIELORA at 12:00 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 11, 2005 #
marielora, I am sure Toledo Talk has received some attention from the committee. Yes, bide the time you have left, I am sure you will be out of there within a year.
I too am voting for Finkbeiner!
posted by lets_talk_serious at 04:02 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 11, 2005 #
I went to the local 12 meeting on Friday. Guess what Mr. Baumhower is pushing for now? More elimination of jobs!!! He is pushing for the development of some land that is near Jeep that is surrounded by some railroad tracks. He has been involved in negotiations with some developers to raze the houses there and develop the land for more supplier part companies for Chrysler. That would mean that maybe in 10 years Jeep as we know it now, will be gone. Get out while you can!!!
I wish I could be at the Union meeting this week. I have a prior engagement. I have lots of questions that I would love to ask. I want to know if the inverse is going to be offered next year. I heard it wasn't, but I want to hear it out of Mr. Henneman's mouth. I don't see how they can still offer inverse and pay people for all the down weeks that we are going to have. I also want to ask if Dan is going to ask Chrysler for the 30 million. again I heard he wasn't, but I want to hear it out of his mouth. There is a team of people going around KJ eliminating jobs.It is called the Smart Team. It consists of outside people and one union person.I would think that there would be more of a union presence on this team than there is. The company is paying for this team, so I guess the company gave the union one position to pacify them.
I also hear that there is alot of in-fighting and back-stabbing amongst the committe people. They should all present a united front.The company will take advantage of this and pit one union person against the other. This is what the company wants. I just hope that this message gets to the committe to let them know that we are aware that there is trouble in paradise.
All I can do is shake my head and wonder how things got so bad. Complancency will do that to you.
GO TTO THE UNION MEETING ON FRIDAY!!!!!
posted by bahamamama at 06:18 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 11, 2005 #
bahama-mama, I KNEW Liberty Body and Paint would be on the LIST to go somewhere down the road...
I doubt Inveress will stop...looks like to me it shows we actually have more employed than we actually do...my thoughts.
Shake your head and wonder HOW??? NAFTA, The Global Market-China, Mexico hanging over our head...
The SMART TEAM...ofcourse is Company Paid...as is our EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE...we MUST REALIZE this...WE HAVE A COMPANY PAID UNION.
Your message will get to the COMMITTEE...the STAFF monitors Toledo Talk...
I am almost out of there...I feel so BAD...for the lower seniority...I do realize too, down the road, some deal will be made with pension.
Thanks for your information...I will only post in the future when I have information...I need for my own self to STOP this...and just bide my time.
Again, thanks, bahama-mama
posted by MARIELORA at 06:37 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 11, 2005 #
bahamamama, are you that surprised? When Daimler sold many of their supplier plants a few years ago, that was the writing on the wall to our future. I don't like what is happening, but, it is, I don't see how we can stop it, it won't stop for quite some time to come.
As far as the committee stabbing each others back, that too, does not surprise me, we have a split committee, I myself voted Nick Vuich's group, cannot expect a split committee to work well together, I never felt they were working together.
marielora, I am keeping an eye on this site, every few hours I look at it, please, stop these postings, you have a year left at the longest, please stop, it's enough, the site did get attention.
posted by lets_talk_serious at 07:16 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 11, 2005 #
Considering that the majority of home foreclosures around Toledo are not amongst the poor, but involve the middle class who have unwisely overextended themselves with near-fraudulent financial manipulations involving bank loans, THEN I'd say the people at Jeep almost uniformly had better downsize their lifestyles. Remember, after another month, you really won't be able to bankrupt out of your overextended bills like people did before. (I should know; a 5-digit figure representing my money was put onto the creditors list for one particular bankruptcy, so I know exactly how EASY it is (soon: "was") to bankrupt out of moral debt.)
The union workers around Toledo and elsewhere have been almost completely disenfranchised from collective bargaining ... since you cannot negotiate from a position of weakness, and the American worker (of any rank below corporate exec or owner) is the very definition of weak at the moment. This population of union workers is loaded down with credit cards, institutionally greedy relatives ("Buy me a cellphone, computer, car and music lessons, Dad!"), and all manner of big-ticket consumer items like (multiple) homes, cars and leisure vehicles, furniture sets, etc.
The larger portion of all this must go away. We have exited an era of (criminally! negligently!) cheap credit, and so it's all uphill interest-wise from here for at least 10 years. A lot of bankrupt agony will happen in that 10-20 years for those who refuse to understand or acknowledge that it is happening.
Are you union workers ditching the vacation homes, ATVs, and rent-to-"own" crap in order to prepare for a future of 12 bucks an hour? I hope so. Otherwise, Jeep will find itself being Toledo's largest employer of the homeless.
The Powertrain workers will have to follow suit. Building expensive vehicles will no longer entitle you all to high wages. The margins are being summarily confiscated by the upper class -- with your full collusion, since opposing such is widely marketed as "opposing capitalism", which is the kiss of death as far as the media is concerned. This is the best case, of course ... since millions of people will no longer qualify for these expensive vehicles any more, hence the manufacturing base must contract further -- lessening the overall "take" of the margins stolen by the elites. This is how a First World country becomes a Third World one in only a few generations.
posted by GuestZero at 07:19 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 11, 2005 #
GZ, you are, as always, dead on with your take on the country-unfortunately & sadly. I'm very sympathetic to all who still suffer at the hands of any employer, since I'm retired. I went early-as soon as I could-because I could no longer stand the 'new workplace' in this country. How old are you guys? Are any of you anywhere close to being able to retire? Just curious, I guess. My personal advice to anybody, anywhere, is-get out of the rat race as soon as you can. You will not believe the reduction in stress, knowing you'll never have to kiss anyone's ass ever again.
posted by Foolkiller at 08:44 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 11, 2005 #
Lucky me, I have ten years to go!
bahamamama, we all know what the future holds, all we have to do is look at Delphi, Vieston, GM, etc. Inveress can stop alltogether, it was never distributed equally.
GuestZero, I am getting out of debt, for me, there will be no pension, I am sure of that.
Foolkiller, I am not feeling any stress anylonger, I have made a pact with myself to take each day as it is thrown at me at Jeep.
marielora, you only have about a year left and you're out of there, stay positive, it's almost over for you.
posted by ajeepthing at 09:06 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 11, 2005 #
Foolkiller, I'm 38. So, it seems that I've about 30 years to go.
But wait! During my early working life I had been told my retirement was 65. Whoops! Congress changed that. Now it's 67 for me.
After some analysis, in about 30 years I'm sure my retirement age will be bumped up at least 1 more time. Let's say 1 or 2 times for 2 years each, hence my retirement age by the time I reach it should be 69 to 71. Hence, 70.
So I have 32 years to go.
But wait!
In the new work environment you implied, I can clearly see that anytime after 50 I'll enter the "unemployable" category. Employers will shun me for the younger set who work cheaper, invoke fewer negative health care statistics (except death-by-accident, which removes the worker anyway), and in general are more obedient and ignorant when the boss tells them to do something illegal and/or immoral.
So it's not like I'll have to work 32 more years, hence giving myself a rough "budget" to rely on. I'm hardly going to be able to WORK for all those 32 years. The employers simply will NOT let me. Even if I'm inside a company in any position whatsoever, I can't rely on staying there since businesses have fallen into a new environment of complete chaos in order to loot themselves, hide losses, seek highly transitory gains, etc. (Note: I'm never joining the ranks of the execs, so all the rest of the positions are the same ... expendable. I'll always be expendable.)
So those 32 working years represent a farcical number. I'm likely to be missing about 10 of those, considering that the last time I was unemployed and underemployed, it was a 2-year period. And that was my mid-30s. It is reasonable to conclude that employers will toss me onto the trash heap for longer periods of time in my 45-65 age range.
So, I'm counting on something over 20 more working years.
Question: How much money should I save, having foreseen these difficulties?
Answer: ALL OF IT! ALL OF IT!!
I live simply ... but more to the point, I will NEVER buy the production off one of the lines at a plant like Jeep. New cars (especially ones over $15K) are incompatible with a man facing serious employment problems for THE REST OF HIS LIFE. Taking on a car or house payment is economic suicide.
People are going to have to goddamn WAKE UP and realize that not only does my reasoning apply to me, but also to themselves, hence that the franchise of this reasoning is widely applied. Much of the middle class that is now rolling in unearned and immoral credit wealth, must downsize their lives ... NOW, not 10-20 years from now when gas is double today's prices while their incomes have hardly budged.
We have to realize as a culture that if we continue to believe that wealth is inviolate -- hence we cannot tax corporations or the wealthy -- then we can be made paupers in a very short period of time due to financial speculation and other manipulations, hence self-sufficiency is the rule of American life now for those who don't want to eat dog food. There's little point in cackling like a chicken over your $25/hr job, when many of your neighbors are making $12/hr and are UNABLE to afford your services. Ultimately the upper-middle-class (part of that dipsh*t class I call the "pre-rich") will have their support structures collapse to a significant degree and they will fall into the lower ranges of the middle class. For too many of them, with enormous and completely legal bills lorded over them by corporations, they will be unable to bankrupt and will end up making ruinous payments towards this corporate structure to no general prosperity whatsoever. It will become a transfer of wealth from the poorer to the richer, that will dwarf what happened in the dotcom fraud.
And they refuse to see all this coming. So to hell with the pre-rich. At the core of my life, there is a single sphere of yin-yang. The black side says "I must ensure my own survival", and the white says "...but I'm not going to let the government only serve the corporate and wealthy". That black side is the one that is looking forward to the fall of the pre-rich. They are the ones who completed college; by rights, they should have known better than I about what was going to happen. (Which only demonstrates the real value of a college degree: just about ZERO.)
posted by GuestZero at 11:52 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 11, 2005 #
Duh! We are awake. Not once have you seen a jeep person b*t*h about our wages. I personally am upset about the overtime and the sub fund (with all the unfairness). With 16.7% uneployment in this town let them work instead of getting a free education. Welfare has better medical than we do now! But no I have pride and am told don't worry you'll be out in 8 years with full pension. How much do you want to bet on that? Hell, I work for Germany now...
posted by jeepgal at 07:52 A.M. EST on Mon Sep 12, 2005 #
Oops on that unemployment error.
Marie please don't stop posting you inspire others to use thier voice.
posted by jeepgal at 10:43 A.M. EST on Mon Sep 12, 2005 #
OK now I'm completely fustrated with these typo's. Your just going to have to not judge me because I have a really good excuse.
posted by jeepgal at 02:43 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 12, 2005 #
GuestZero, yes we do NEED to downsize...our wages will drop drastically...we are truly becoming a third world country...
For me the OUTRAGE is...many of my co-workers think absolutely NOTHING of the fact that our children earn much less than we do, some work side by side with us earning nearly half our wages...yet, these co-workers with full wages, feel they should NEVER give CONCESSIONS...they honestly believe...they have given enough!!! Given WHAT??? Our children, that's what we
GAVE UP!!!
Jeepgal, please take good care...priority number one: Your HEALTH...
That thinking is being a TRUE UNION BROTHER OR SISTER??? That is what SOLIDARITY is...
posted by MARIELORA at 04:04 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 12, 2005 #
correction to above post...forget the comment to: jeepgal...then it will make sense...
jeepgal, your HEALTH is number one PRIORITY...please...take good care!
posted by MARIELORA at 04:10 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 12, 2005 #
EVERYONE, GuestZero is right on it, he's giving all of us good advice, we need to prepare for our future, get out of debt, sell the summer cottege! If you don't do it now, you'll lose it!
marielora, two-tier wages are wrong, plain and simple, yes, there are many who should retire for the sake of our young people, but, instead applied for the: The Parts Supplier jobs, 500 applied (all 500 with 30+years), I am guessing possibly 75 of them will be hired, if that, hopefully there will be some openings for the unemployed in Toledo that Jeepgal spoke of.
Union brothers and sisters, please, solidarity, our own representatives have no idea what it all means, how can we?
posted by lets_talk_serious at 05:25 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 12, 2005 #
Is this the question you would like my opinion on? (Let me ask you this Bbcmjeep43, do you believe it is a true conflict of interest having union representatives wages paid by the company?)
I have never been a union representative.( I don't want to be) I don't think it should matter if the company pays, or the Union does.For if the Union paid the reps. then everyone's dues would have to go way up. And many people don't like to pay the amount we pay now. The contract would still be what it is. And have to be followed as an enforceable document.I do not believe that were we to pay our own dues premium to pay our reps. would be any big difference.
The corporation is bound and tied by these trade agreements also. For they are caught in an ever downward spiral as we are.These trade agreements force them to act in ways they may never have previously.I myself, am glad that our company is investing money in America when others are leaving. I believe they felt they had to have this supplier arrangement to keep the Wrangler here. I don't like it, but we received quite a bit of product in return.In case anyone hasn't noticed. Our Jeep facilities received a major share of corporate spending.I do not like everything that corporate does but I will say this. This company has more loyalty to America than many supposedly (domestic) companies.When the final shakeout is settled. this company will have my vote for investing money into our economy, instead of taking it out. When the majority of the population starts getting angry about (good paying) job loss in America, Chrysler will look good. And as far as their profits go. They are not as high as they really need to be for the capital intensive work that we do.
And as far as the other question about Bruce helping bring supplier parks here, and new jobs. He is doing what I would expect him to do as a member of the Port Authority, and President of Local 12. He is doing his job. No-one can guarantee to bring in 25.00 per hour jobs. He is doing what he can, and that's more than a lot of people could do. I respect Mr. Baumhower.He is a good union man and does his job. It's not his fault the economy is sliding towards a lower wage scale.
And for those who continue to talk about gloom and doom in the future concerning Liberty Body and Paint, I would say, why do you say that? We have a contract, and it's the best we could get. Thank you again Mr. Vuich.You did the best job you could do, and I appreciate it. I regret that you are not here now to interpret the intent of the contract also. As well as continually seek new products. As you stated yourself, that is the never-ending job of the Chairman. We have a future, and work kept here in the United States. It's o.k. to state your opinion. But to continually imagine the worst, and project into the future is ridiculous. I myself support the Company, the U.A.W. and our Workforce. Does this mean I like what any or all are doing at any given time? This is what we have, and this is what we have to deal with.
And as far as Jack Ford goes.I believe he is a good mayor.I believe he does not always effectively promote himself. That is part of his low key personality.I think he has done a good job for Toledo.I would vote for him if I did not live in Oregon.
Maybe some of us could look at our own contributions to lower employment.I do not work any overtime that is not mandatory.I can count on one hand the number of times I have worked over in the last three years.I believe the constant working of overtime, contributes to the fact that employment levels are lower. I am speaking for myself here. When a company has people laid off, I do not believe anyone should work any non- mandatory overtime.
Another look at Supplier Park Arrangements
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3012/is_10_184/ai_n6261227
http://www.toledoworks.org/Jeep_supplier_relocation.asp
http://www.conway.com/ssinsider/bbdeal/bd040816.htm
Haden, Kuka, OMMC (Hyundai-Mobis).This arrangement is part of our future here. The Chrysler group has to live in this economic environment also.They wanted to try this in Canada.Remember that transplant factories in Southern States have no retirees to support, and a younger workforce. Their costs are lower than ours. Let's try to give each other a hand, and get it going right.You can blame anyone you want, but how about blaming the continual downsizing of our manufacturing base to the flawed trade agreements with virtual slave labor countries.That's where it starts.How about blaming our own elected representatives that give tax breaks to companies that move jobs overseas.How about blaming anti-worker laws and regulations, courtesy of George Bush and friends.How about blaming yourselves, for not calling and writing your elected officials and letting them know you aren't happy.How about blaming greedy business owners that move profitable companies overseas, to make even more money using exploited labor.(That goes back to the free trade agreements also) How about blaming cowardly politicians that cave in to the demands of big business.How about blaming nobody any more and doing the best you can to make Toledo, Ohio a better place. And be damn glad that your job isn't moving to a low wage country.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 06:43 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 12, 2005 #
Bbcmjeep43, Jobs remained in Toledo,this is true, yet I have one question...CAN YOU LIVE ON$10.00 to $13.00 per hour...
I CANNOT...THEREFORE...I CANNOT ACCEPT OUR CHILDREN TRYING TO SURVIVE ON WAGES...
The Supplier Park...is our Toledo Jeep Retiree's future if the 500 who applied are actually hired...that's allright...they need pension and full wages...my daughter all the other young people (who will someday decide our destiny and WILL REMEMBER...) will live on $10-$13.00 per hour, raise children...
Don't get me WRONG...I too believe Nick Vuich GRABBED the best that was offerred...there is only ONE AREA OF THAT CONTRACT...I don't agree with RETIREE'S having first dibs when so many are STILL LAYED OFF from Jeep...and...so many of our children are financially struggling...
If you were a resident of Toledo...you would see Jack Ford did NOTHING for our city other than hurt many businesses with the Smoking Ban...I will give him credit where credit is due...CareNet, is a great program...needed...with all the unemployed in Toledo.
Predict Doom and Gloom...NO...the writing is on the wall...I am thinking you have 83 seniority...you'll be the last of what I consider the golden children...you've been employed with Jeep since you were what...19 years old...always made BIG DOLLARS for doing a job that took NO EDUCATION actually NOT MUCH BRAINS at all...physical endurance that's it...
Wages will drop...especially with Manufacturing Jobs...are you prepared for a cut in wages...NO...you...feel my daughter and all the young people should earn wages at $13.00...and...you will earn nearly $26.00.
As long as there are two tier wages with the older employees only securing their wages, their future...there is NO SOLIDARITY...
Company paid union rep's., that are not working rep's...is a conflict of interest...
Please know, all is my opinion, which I am entitled to...this is STILL America...
posted by MARIELORA at 07:25 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 12, 2005 #
Before I begin, I urge that you review two articles: “Financially Speaking” and “Jeep Unit News” in the September 9th Toledo Union Journal.
It seems that we at Toledo Talk indeed have a larger audience reviewing what is said at this web site.
In the article “Financially Speaking” the writer explains to us the workings of the U.A.W. Local #12 Assistance Program (which is a wonderful program, by all accounts). Then, there is an explanation as to the oversight and accounting of the Local 12 Assistance Program and I assume other programs as well. The writer further explains the checks and balances, with references to dual signatures and trustee audits. I would like to remind the readers of recent stories in the Toledo Blade of similar accounting practices. The Governor of Ohio claimed that the media had an agenda to ruin one coin dealer, who he proclaimed was making a profit for injured workers of Ohio. Well, we all know what happened to that story. Has there ever been an outside audit of the books? Would the writer not think an outside audit would stop these continued rumors about expenditures? I think the writer should speak of and offer support for an independent audit.
I am glad to see the return of the Jeep Unit News. It has been a while, and to see a full page was a welcomed sight. The writer, in review, gave us an explanation of our Jeep Unit elected officials’ responsibilities. I was taken back with the comment, “many people wonder why they don’t see the Chief Stewards, Committeemen or Chair/Vice Chairmen on the floor very often,”
After the shootings at Jeep, recognizing the need to react the Chairman wrote in that every month he would personally walk the floor of a department and answer our questions. What happened to this policy? Why was it stopped? Do you not think he should explain why he stopped this? Another broken promise. “Say what you do and do what you say”
In summary, the writer needs to talk one on one with the workers on the line. I think they will find most working at 120%, while feeling their support people (union, management, appointees, etc.) are working at 50% at most. The line workers are required to do their jobs but the support staff is not, what gives? How would you feel if Industrial Engineers were added at your job every year, but the support staff are never reduced, and they spend their time watching you work.
It’s easy to write an article, we’ve read all the articles, but there are still rumors of Chief Stewards gambling in Detroit while on the clock, bar owners receiving job bank for years, and United Way thievery continues. You see if you talk the talk you need to walk the walk. After all, the workers are watching.
Respectfully yours, Rank-and-File member
posted by UnionWanted at 08:22 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 12, 2005 #
UnionWanted...please, explain the articles in the Union Journal you speak of...I no longer have my copy...especially, please explain "Financially Speaking"...double signatures??? Audit by trustee's???
posted by MARIELORA at 09:04 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 12, 2005 #
MARIELORA, it's not a question of:
"CAN YOU LIVE ON$10.00 to $13.00 per hour"
... since it's not actually a question, or even IN question. I MUST LIVE ON IT. Employers never asked permission to drive wages in the Toledo area into the low teens. They just did it. And there's literally no end to it.
So the class war was well started and is currently being waged. This war was never declared, but as I never tire of telling people:
"After noting all the bullet wounds appearing on you, it's time you admitted that YOU'RE BEING FIRED ON."
You go on with:
"I CANNOT ACCEPT OUR CHILDREN TRYING TO SURVIVE ON WAGES"
Sorry, but we MUST anyway. And good luck trying to sell your house to us when you decide to permanently snowbird to Florida.
My co-worker told me about what happened to his father's house in the North End in the 70s when he had his empty nest and he wanted to go. Eventually after failing to sell the house for "what it was worth" (i.e. an impossible price considering the amount of economic collapse), he simply moved and tried to have it sold while he was away. The house was broken into in ONE WEEK, and nearly all the saleable fixtures were ripped out by looters. He ended up selling the house as a junker to some sharpie looking to fix-and-rent.
There's going to be a lot of plywood shipped to Toledo to perform all the boarding-up of houses for all the impossible prices that will exist. The forest of "FOR RENT" signs are NOT ENOUGH adaptation and are hardly the end of it. Heck, I'm still seeing jerks tryin' to get a cool $100K+ for a house on Olsen. OLSEN STREET! What the f*** is wrong with people?!?!
Oh, yeah, that's right -- the banks are loanin' money for "buyin' a home" if you can fog a mirror. THAT is what's driving all this incredible consumer stupidity. (And, yes, I'm so mad about that kind of thing that I'm ready to chew 16-penny nails. {crunch crunch})
My co-worker is preparing his house for sale since he's going to lose his job eventually to some much-lesser-paid 20-something. But he's going to run into the same problem. No one will (or CAN) buy it for the $100K+ he will demand for it (in the neighborhoods west of Powertrain). He might get away with leaving it empty while he tries to have it sold eventually, but it's also all too likely it'll turn into a rental ... and then the damned degradation will start. And if it's not him that has his house's copper tubing ripped out, then it'll just be someone else in the neighborhood.
posted by GuestZero at 01:17 A.M. EST on Tue Sep 13, 2005 #
GuestZero, thankyou for your comment, you are always "right on"...
Maybe I am CRAZY...my thinking being, that we...the older employee need to give some concessions to allow "our children" to earn a decent wage...
Many disagree with my thinking...believeing CEO's and such should take cuts...or...accept two tier pay scales...our children earn half wages as we...
As far as my home SELLING...my step-father taught me well...he grew up during the Depression...I a below standard life than most of my co-workers...I reside in what most would consider a lower class neighborhood, my home is worth $90,000...I may get $80,000 for it...
Please continue making comments to this post...you are very wise in what you say...and...yes...we are becoming a third world country...
posted by MARIELORA at 04:36 A.M. EST on Tue Sep 13, 2005 #
as a 27 year uaw member and worker at the jeep plant there ar a number of things that i am ashamed of that have been written here in this toledo talk forum 1) we are not middle class wage earners,middle class is $29,000 a year, an average jeep worker with the minimum of overtime is making at least $75,000 a year 2)a person with 20 yrs seniority gets 4 weeks of paid vacation and 5 days personal time a year yet they wine about not being able to get inverse layoffs that will pay them 95% of their take home pay when they want to go on vacation 3)you say "i live in a modest $90,000 home" and then you talk about moving to your home in florida so that makes 2-modest $90,000 homes 4)early on i tried to encourage my children to get a good education becouse jobs like mine would not be around for them chrysler will pay $1500 a year for 4 years to help our dependant children get an education we must push our children do better than we did 5) we have the best in medical benefits that you could ask for just go to the drug store and watch people shelling out big bucks for prescriptions 6) i say all this not to let you think i am ungrateful for the union and what they did in the past we are not getting this with from our present day unions they to are resting on their laurels 7) take a real good honest look at your life and your lifestyle are you encouraging your children to be the best that they can be to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and make something of themselves or are you teaching them that life is not fair and you must grab all you can while you can, comparing yourself to those around you, and not being honest with yourself but always saying "I deserve more" i wish i could get an inspection job or something in stock but i will live with what i have and enjoy it ///these posts are to depressing you say i have ten years to go that means that you could go to school for the next ten years if you wanted to all paid for by the company but you won't and one thing is for certain the time will pass, what you do with it is up to you /// goodby
posted by so_you_think at 03:04 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 13, 2005 #
so_you_think...you keep saying you, you, you...
I'm MARIELORA, I have 28 years seniority, I am grateful for my wages, disappointed with my union misleading me with buy-outs...and...some other issues...
Yes, I encourage my daughter...she went to Owens for 2 years, she is a single mother...it's not easy for her...my daughter actually went to West Virgina to Marshall Universities and was hire with CXX Railroad...she said it was the easiest job in the world...but, being a single mother hard on both her and my grandson, my daughter is presently in school...Dental Hygenist...and...works one part-time and one full time job...yes, we all knew manufacturing jobs were leaving...two-tier wages upset me...I cannot understand how a union brother and sister can secure our own security with wages and not our young people...we should give allittle...as you posted...we have WAY MORE than most...
These posts depress you??? so_you_think...you had an awful lot to say on some of the topics, yourself...Inveress SHOULD be distributed equally...
As far as my "modest" home and my home in florida...let me explain, I have had co-workers to my home, to gasp and ask me "why do you live here" they living in $200-300K homes...I live in a lower middle class neighborhood, never depended on overtime to make it...as MOST of my co-workers do...they cannot survive without the OVERTIME...My home in Florida, my fiance' paid for most of that...
I have savings...I owe little on my home...NO CREDIT CARDS...no car payment...so I am going to be allright when our PENSION is looked at with next contract...
EDUCATION: sometimes...isn't enough...my daughter has an education...her boyfriend has a BA...they are lucky to make $25,000-$30,000 oer year...I hope YOUR children are in the MEDICAL profession or COMPUTER TECH. of some kind...
so_you_think...GOODBYE...
posted by MARIELORA at 03:25 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 13, 2005 #
so you think I have never made 75,000 a year! Your one of the last of golden children that was always able to bid. Not me!! I do not whine about my wages. I whine about the unfairness that goes on there. And you with your 27 years are a good example especially if your makeing 75,000. Do you work on the line? I had 20 years in June so that means I have 2 weeks vacation because one is taken during shut down. I have 3 children who needs to go to the dentist/doctors office which is where my paa days go so I can forget the school functions. Everybody knows 85's has had it the hardest. Boy how lucky you are to be able to look down your nose on us as your ready to walk out the door. The reason we make more money than most is because we work more than most. How many other people get up at 4:30 and get home at 4(6 days a week). I know the economy is terrible and I feel horrible about that we but really shouldn't attack each other. Which maybe I did you a little bit(sorry). Solidarity is not done by job eliminations and Supplier Park(which I believe will have a high turnover rate).
posted by jeepgal at 05:15 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 13, 2005 #
MARIELORA, again, two-tier wages are wrong, plain and simple, once the older senority is out, two-tier wages will not exist. All the young people will earn $10.00-$13.00 per hour employed at Daimler. Pension will certainly be a HUGE ISSUE with next contract, too many retiree's as per say active employees, good thing you have savings and are out of debt.
so_you_think, we can encourage our children till no end, it ain't gonna happen for them, we took and took and drove jobs overseas. People are running for their lives out of the Lake Erie region, why? NO WORK, MARIELORA suggested the medical field, if there's NO PEOPLE there is NO NEED for MORE nurses, doctors, x-ray tech's.,dental assistants.
so_you_think, you also said you earn $75,000 per year, now think about this and think REAL HARD, could you survive on HALF that? That's what WE as a UNION left for the young people, HALF of what was left for us and that is DEPRESSING and a SHAME.
so_you_think, do you take your turn at Inveress weeks off? How many a year do you take along with your vacation time? How long have you been on the line? Have you worked on the line all of your 27 years? I think, it's difficult for so_you_think to take in the fact that we are becoming a third world country and leaving the ones we endear most in life, our young people to live in it! That's depressing, isn't it, they are gonna have to live in it!
jeepgal, you were not attacking anyone, so_you_think has picked on the 1985's more than once, more than twice.
posted by lets_talk_serious at 05:46 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 13, 2005 #
MARIELORA, P.S. now will you STOP with this?
posted by lets_talk_serious at 05:47 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 13, 2005 #
so_you_think, one last comment to you...I recall many posts of yours primarily speaking of over-time paid in the job bank...you were once on an appointed position, weren't you? Your over-time was cut, wasn't it? That is what all that was about...
I recall another post ending with you saying quote "I hope I can make it 3 more years" another post telling us "to stop taking inveress"...you want buy-out, you know it's going to be tough the next 3 years for you...
The Union in the past did great things, some benefits we have now I still cannot believe we have...Birthday Paid, isn't that UNBELIEVABLE??? I would gladly give concessions as we did in the 70's-80's if it meant keeping jobs here...if it meant two-tier wages would be ridded, but, how many more would...not too many...we can see that with all the retiree's that signed to double dip at the Supplier Park..
You know...when I hired at Jeep in 1977...I could not believe I was paid so many dollars for what I was doing...couldn't believe it...I have ALWAYS felt we are overpaid when compared to what the EDUCATED earnings are...for me...Teachers should earn double what they earn...you and I...$18.00 per hour...the conditions have improved 100% in factories...some now air conditioned, power tools ergonmically correct, etc.,...the higher wages were set up due to the conditions workers dealt with in the factory enviroment...
A UNION should show solidarity...there is NO solidarity when securing positions for retiree's with full pension and wages at $25.+ per year...that is triple what the UNION agreed for new hires, new hires will earn $13.00 per hour...and...it's NOT just manufacturing jobs this is happening with...
Schools are rehiring retired teachers...same thing going...collect pension, wages, saves money...NO HEALTHCARE...it is happening in every AVENUE of the Job Market...
Busch is telling our children..."hey, just go back to school and get another degree" we are going to have the most educated population and still they will earn LOW WAGES...
I did teach my child well...she is dealing with this wonderful GLOBALIZATION...you and I are very fortunate as to NOT HAD TO...jobs were always pentiful for you and I...compared to what our children our dealing with...the last time I made $11.00 per hour was in 1979-1980...healthcare, not too many employers can afford to provide it anylonger, you and I have been fortunate, very much so...
GuestZero, makes a good point...who will purchase our homes? I'll re-locate to Florida...you will...is it Arizona? GuestZero, is warning us what he considers the pre-rich...we NEED to downsize...cause...we are going to be hit...and...hit hard...our children are dealing with it now...you and I will with our PENSION...I am prepared for it...are you?
I am sorry you are DEPRESSED...I believe...it pains you to accept the PAINFUL TRUTH of it all...
posted by MARIELORA at 07:30 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 13, 2005 #
Marielora,
Thank you for all your contributions to ToledoTalk.I am now taking donations for plane tickets to Hong Kong Disneyland! I would like you to go there, as a special reward for all you have done here! I have made arrangements for you to be met at the airport by a special Honor Guard, of the Peoples Liberation Army. I have also made arrangements for you to have deluxe accomodations at the luxurious Laogai Hotel nearby.It's very easy to check in! I would like to go with you but unfortunately I have a step-son in college, and a daughter in grade school, and a lot of bills. I have lived a pathetic life of overflowing abundance, and now cannot escape the shackles of my own self-imprisonment to the materialistic desires of capitalist fantasy. Good luck on your dream trip to Hong Kong Disneyland, and who knows, you may become famous over there!
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 08:56 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 13, 2005 #
China!!! Disneyland...if only I were younger!!!
But, thanks for the thought...
posted by MARIELORA at 09:05 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 13, 2005 #
You're welcome,
I am always thinking of what I can do to help.I have tried to figure out how to get out of the psychoanalytically counterproductive materialism trap that I myself have fomented upon my own financial world. In simple english, my ass is in debt! Yet, short of throwing my family into a homeless shelter, while I heartlessly enable my own greed, as a hypermaterialistic overspending moneyhound, I have no solutions. It is through my own gross incompetence, and failure to recognize the capitalistic and imperialist urges that overtake me, that I have come to rely upon Jeep as the sole saviour of my pathetic world. That is why I am writing a book, in the hopes of achieving financial independence. I wish you all good luck in whatever you may do, and don't forget the famous lines of that immortal philosopher.Yes. I am talking about Alfred E. Neumann here! Those classic lines ring through my head like a buzzsaw at an Ash Tree Mill! (What, Me Worry?)
Well, I'm taking a few days off here. I have a few projects to finish. And when I come back my mind will be refreshed, and I'll once again attempt to discuss rationally, the underlying structures of economic theory as they apply to the working class. Myself included by the way. For I am only a line worker, and for some strange and as yet unfathomable reason, that has never bothered me at all. I am satisfied with my supposed place in life, and have never aspired to anything more.I personally feel cheated by one thing.That there is not enough free time for me to finish reading and examining the types of literature that I do.I am currently researching Germanic tribes, and the ways in which they defeated the Roman Army. I'm sure I'll be moving to something else quite soon, but such is my nature.For one thing always leads to another does it not?
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 09:49 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 13, 2005 #
Bbcmjeep43, I would love to meet you sometime...I do appreciate all your research trying to find a way to stop all of this...
Clearly...we all can see you are highly intelligent...so be it...if you are allright with limiting all your capabilities on the line...I can see...you are an excellent teacher...
And...you have a sense of humor...I hope it is humor...with sending me...what is it...ONE WAY TRIP...to China!!!
Take good care...I am learning much from you...
posted by MARIELORA at 10:17 P.M. EST on Tue Sep 13, 2005 #
Marielora,
There is a lot more to the economic story than just what can we give up.The problems faced by the unions and the working class are caused by Government policies.I'm not saying jobs would never go overseas, I'm saying that were trade policy fair and equitable, the drain would be much slower, and all people of the earth would benefit. We are being sold a bundle of lies by the forces of greed.This bundle of lies is packaged and promoted, just as the hypothetical trip to Hong Kong Disney may have been.Underneath the hustle and bustle of our society, there is something else going on. There are forces who do not want you to ever be aware of this something else.I will give you a small example.The President himself, has announced that the economy is improving several times, and cited several different facts and figures.If he himself is not aware of it, this economy is actually on very shaky ground.The mountain of debt that the Federal Government is borrowing is reaching the point of unpayability.The stated goal of the current Republican leadership has been to shrink government.This should go hand in hand, with also shrinking government spending.They have both expanded government, and shrunk many programs that help working class people.They are shredding the safety net that we will need, and increasing the burden on the middle class, by shipping our jobs overseas through a variety of unsound trade agreements.They are, and have been, laying waste to the tax and revenue base of the United States.The consequences of shifting responsibility from corporations to people, at the same time you are aiding and assisting those corporations to move our jobs overseas, is tremendous. The bottom line is that they are pulling the rug out from under America.
It is not the sole fault of the American people that our contracts and social compacts are being shredded.We are being undermined by the most irresponsible administration ever to be elected in this country. And if any of them would choose to pulicly debate me on this topic, I would be more than happy to verbally and publicly annihilate their facetious arguments of sound policy.I would not hesitate to both show and prove, that my beloved country is on extremely shaky ground.I really do not want to send you to Disneyland.I want you to please stop publicly asking for us to give up everything, and realize that the working people themselves, meaning you and I, and every person in America, is not completely to blame for what is transpiring here.We are literally and figuratively, being legally constricted, and sold down the river.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 04:10 A.M. EST on Wed Sep 14, 2005 #
the world is shrinking all around us just like people used to go shop in michigan becouse the sales tax was lower they now use the internet, jobs left the so called rust belt for the bible belt down south becouse people would work cheaper, then they went to mexico, then south america and southeast asia, now they are going to the biggest source of low cost labor CHINA!! it will never end there is always someone willing to it for less we are turning into a service nation rather than an industrial nation it won't be long and you will see a one world government with no need for paid wages you just fit into a social class and everything you need will be given to you by the government just like a star trek episode
posted by so_you_think at 08:22 A.M. EST on Wed Sep 14, 2005 #
http://www.nlcnet.org/news/
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 03:12 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 14, 2005 #
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0509/14/A01-314537.htm
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 03:25 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 14, 2005 #
http://www.uaw.org/news/newsarticle.cfm?ArtId=342
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 03:35 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 14, 2005 #
AMFA members got a financial boost Tuesday from the United Auto Workers, which donated $880,000.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 03:37 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 14, 2005 #
Bbcmjeep43, Is the UAW the only UNION supporting the STRIKERS?
Also, you stated...we the American people are being sold down the river...
I feel...we sold our children down the river, you and I (our Union) by allowing two-tier wages...
I will do what you ask...I will not publicly use the "C" word...yet, it pains me, what you and I have...as...to what our children do NOT have...
You had stated in your post, "outflow of jobs"...even...the educated are bumped off and forced to train their own replacements from INDIA...education doesn't seem to be the answer for our children, that isn't a guarantee for job security...all we have to do is look at the Computer Tech's., at Jeep...they seem to be from INDIA...
Bbcmjeep43, what scares me the most...my 9 year old grandson...if these laws are not changed where there is "fair trade"...what will be left for him? Less than what is there for my daughter?
I would, sometime like to meet you...again, thanks for all your time and research...
posted by MARIELORA at 04:27 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 14, 2005 #
JUST RELEASED...NORTHWEST AIRLINES FILES CHAPTER 11 as does DELTA AIRLINES... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9317550/
posted by MARIELORA at 04:43 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 14, 2005 #
This is totally off topic, but I have a question I was hoping that someone might answer. In the UAW Constitution, it states that no one who has a felony conviction shall hold office in the union. Yet, Wayne Truitt is Chairman over at the place that makes our dashboards(can't think of the name off the top of my head). I know he was in jail for awhile for vehicular homicide. Isn't that a felony? I also heard he was bragging in jail that after he got out the union was going to take care of him and get him a job. Now if one of us was in jail, do you think that the union would give a rat's ass about what would happen to us after we got out? I doubt it very highly. It's just another example of how the union takes care of their own while leaving the rank-and-file out to flap in the breeze.Sorry to get carried away.So much crap, so little time......
posted by bahamamama at 05:05 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 14, 2005 #
bahama-mama, me being a mother...well...Wayne Truitt is a sore subject for me...
My feelings on it...he was taken care of...
I know nothing of laws governing the whats of holding office...
posted by MARIELORA at 05:13 P.M. EST on Wed Sep 14, 2005 #
I copied and am pasting the following article, it is related to the information, bahama-mama, had heard at a Local meeting...
----------------------------------------------
Other suppliers consider opening plants in Toledo
May 6, 2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toledo Blade
More parts suppliers to the $2.1 billion expansion of DaimlerChrysler AG's Toledo Jeep Assembly are in talks with Toledo officials about opening plants in the city, Toledo officials say.
Toledo Mayor Jack Ford on Wednesday told The Blade three suppliers plan to open factories in north Toledo that would collectively employ 330 people - Toledo's Dana Corp., Toledo Molding & Die Inc., and Decoma International Inc. of Canada. He and other city officials held a news conference yesterday to discuss the projects.
More suppliers will be announced when economic development deals are completed, Mr. Ford said. Officials declined to discuss details of what tax and financial incentives will be offered to Dana, Toledo Molding, and Decoma.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
posted by MARIELORA at 08:14 A.M. EST on Thu Sep 15, 2005 #
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/20/2005/1129
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 06:13 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 15, 2005 #
http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/funddocs/billeng.htm
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 06:14 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 15, 2005 #
http://reclaimdemocracy.org/about_us.html
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 06:24 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 15, 2005 #
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/05/01/int05004.html
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 07:04 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 15, 2005 #
Today, a co-worker passed on the line at Stickney, I heard a heart attack, so SAD, this happened at the 6:09 am, our shift begins at 6:00am...we were told we could leave...Rest in Peace Ron Greene...
I went to the Second Shift Union Meeting, I didn't ask questions as it was Second Shifts Meeting, I listened...Mr. Henneman announced...which is NO SURPRISE...Corporation is not interested in his PROPOSAL to save the Press Shop...
Mr. Henneman announced CONTRACT BOOKS ARE ON THE WAY and Inveress will continue...Mr. Henneman also announced...There will be JOBS for everyone with the Nitro vehicle...3 shifts...I don't believe there will be $25.00 per hour jobs for everyone, but, there may be JOBS...Mr. Henneman also announced...28 Out Packages were only negotiated up to 2004...I wonder why...he the Chairman and Vice-Chairman both personally assurred me in December 2004 to make my plans...28 Out packages would continue on...
I don't know what to believe of any of it...time will tell...
posted by MARIELORA at 02:38 P.M. EST on Fri Sep 16, 2005 #
What struck me was the Inveress speech, he's going to continue Inveress this will enable all of us to enjoy a week off, rather than 300 laid off, collecting 40 hours. He also added, Inveress replacements would cover vacations and the manpower relocating to the Supplier Park. Ummmm, for us at Stickney that means less, he sure has a variety of answers to the same questions, just depends what month it is, someone is leading him, what direction, is the million dollar question.
Jobs for everyone, wow, is that a prediction, how can he determine sales in the future, he can't, we build gas guzzelers, gas is sky high, jobs for everyone!
Yep, time will tell.
posted by ajeepthing at 05:23 P.M. EST on Fri Sep 16, 2005 #
I'm very sad to hear of the passing of my co-worker there at Jeep. May God rest his soul, and bless him, and take him into his loving Kingdom.May the peace that passes all understanding, be bestowed upon you. I wish to you, that flights of angels may carry you to a better place.You are in my thoughts and prayers.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 08:17 P.M. EST on Fri Sep 16, 2005 #
President Thomas Jefferson said, "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." Jefferson even went so far as to suggest that banning monopolies in commerce should be written into the Bill of Rights. In 1787 when James Madison sent the first draft of the new Constitution to him, Jefferson noted in a letter that he would "insist on annexing a bill of rights to the new Constitution, i.e. a bill wherein the Government shall declare that, 1. Religion shall be free; 2. Printing presses free; 3. Trials by jury preserved in all cases; 4. No monopolies in commerce; 5. No standing army."
President James Madison said, "There is an evil which ought to be guarded against in the inde
Syndicate ToledoTalk
