Wow, another marina plan for Toledo. I can't wait for the next one to come out right before the 2008 election to see what that one looks like.
Until they start building it, its all poltical talk to get votes
posted by Toledolaw05 at 03:58 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 11, 2005 #
A few of the related postings on Toledo Talk about the Marina District and/or sports arena
2003
Marina District plans keep changing - January 21
Marina project dead? - January 22
Marina without an arena? - January 31
Talks once again on sports arena - February 28
A plan for the new sports arena - July 1
Marina District pipedream to be finalized - September 9
Marina District project progressing at snail's pace - September 24
Lackluster Marina District proposals - October 12
Movement in Marina District project - October 31
Marina District Project: Mayor Ford pays back campaign donor - November 25
2004
Saga of the phantom arena - June 3
New plan for sports arena - June 17
Poll says put arena on east side - October 14
Marina and arena projects, here we go again - December 22
2005
Marina District Moving Forward??? - February 25
Gladieux pulling feeding tube on Storm - March 31
Sports arena update - May 12
East side sports arena workshop - June 16
Sports Arena for sale - June 21
Marina District Neighborhood Charette - June 22
St. Clair Street - June 24
New Urbanism meeting recap - June 29
Questions on the Pizzuti arena study report - July 6
County to build arena? - July 26
New Arena going to county - August 18
posted by jr at 04:03 P.M. EST on Tue Oct 11, 2005 #
Blade story about yesterday's unveiling.
It's pretty much official now that if ever built, a new sports arena will go on the west side of the river. Ford said:
"Our studies have clearly concluded that corporate and business support is much stronger on the west side of the river. The arena development must be driven by market forces."
The Marina District doesn't need the arena.
From the Blade story came this disturbing bit of info about Carty:
"Mr. Finkbeiner said he hopes he can interest Frank Kass of Columbus, the original Marina District developer, in returning to the project."
So if elected, Carty would scratch everything done by Pizutti up to this point. That's horrible. That's a showstopper. That's a reason to vote against Carty. If Carty doesn't agree to continue with Pizzuti if he's elected, then Carty should not be elected. In my opinion, it would be disaster for Toledo if Carty got elected and dumped Pizzuti.
From the Blade:
"[Carty] also said that, if elected, he would meet with the Pizzuti team to determine whether he felt they had the ability to bring financing to the project and to examine their track record."
Contact Peter Ujvagi or Pizzuti to get info on Pizzuti developments in Columbus. Then take a roadtrip to check out Pizzuti's work. Simple.
On this Marina District issue, Carty and McCloskey are irrelevant. They are nothing. They have a right to speak out, but no one should pay attention to anything they say. They are both talking out their ass, especially McCloskey who doesn't give a damn about the east side, and that opinion is based upon McCloskey's own actions at the June 25 Marina District public brainstorming meeting.
From the Blade:
"Mayor Ford was joined by two members of council, Frank Szollosi and Karyn McConnell Hancock; two of the three county commissioners, Tina Skeldon Wozniak and Pete Gerken, and state Rep. Peter Ujvagi (D., Toledo). All are allies of Mr. Ford in his re-election bid, and all pledged to support the project."
Frank and Karyn showed up to scam for votes. Where were they at the June 25 Marina District meeting?
The June 25 Marina District public meeting was organized and led by Ujvagi. I believe Ujvagi more than anyone else has been leading this project and pushing it forward with Pizzuti. Maybe that's why McCloskey walked out of the June 25 meeting during the opening statements. Does Bob have something against Ujvagi?
At that June meeting, which I now see that I forgot to post my notes about, the opening remarks took about an hour. Ujvagi, Jim Russell of Pizzuti, Don Monroe the executive director of the River East Economic Revitalization Corp, an architect working for Pizzuti, and Mayor Ford all spoke during the introduction. McCloskey left during this time, just before Ford spoke. Ford left after he spoke.
Present at the meeting were engineers, architects, developers, a couple politicians, and curious citizens. After the intro remarks, we broke up into two groups and tossed around ideas. I was in the group with George Sarantou, Pete Gerken, Mary Chris Skeldon, and Martin Okonski.
Sarantou was the only Toledo City Councilperson to participate that day. Okonski was the only mayoral candidate to participate. So where in the hell were Szollosi, McConnell Hancock, and Carty? Where was the rest of Council? Toledo City Council only had one rep that could give up a half a Saturday for something as important as the Marina District project. Disgusting.
In early July, those at the meeting received an e-mail from Ujvagi's office that summarized what the two break-out groups had come up with. That info was posted here.
Then in early August, Ujvagi sent out the final report in two e-mails. One contained a 5 meg PowerPoint attachment, which I have not viewed, since I don't have PowerPoint. Maybe I'll upload it here in case broadband users want to view it. The other e-mail from Ujvagi's office contained three JPEG files. Two were 1-meg in size and the third was over 5 meg. Not good for us dial-up users. The two one meg JPEGs are of the same thing, which is a sketch of how one of the breakout groups envisioned the Marina District project.
This was the text part of the Aug 3 e-mail from Ujvagi:
---- START ----
First of all thank you for participating in the Marina/Arena Charrette on Saturday, June 25, 2005. It was a very informative and productive day with great ideas generated by so many people.
As promised, please find attached the reports developed as a result of the Charrette.
* The summery report of the Charrette presented to the Mayor and Toledo City Council Committee of the Whole on Tuesday, July 19, 2005.
* Renderings of the concepts developed in the two working groups.
* A condensed version of the notes from the workshops.
The report has been well received by the Mayor, Council and the Developers. It is our expectation that they will take the ideas and recommendations to heart as the Marina project is developed.
We know that the decision of whether to keep the new Arena as part of the Marina project or to relocate it to the other side of the river generates intense feelings. We need to keep our focus on the entire Marina project and its impact on our neighborhoods and the continued redevelopment of our community. We must make sure that whatever the final decision the commitments to invest to East Toledo are met.
The Maumee River should truly unit us not divide us.
I would strongly urge you to continue to be involved and to take advantage of every opportunity to help influence to future of East Toledo and our entire region.
---- END ----
(I heard McCloskey spew a bunch of bullshit on Bob Frantz's radio show. He claims to have help develop the Marina District project. Yeah, that was really evident back in June. What an idiot. And he's the leading vote-getter in the at-large council election. For Sweetest Day, McCloskey should send flowers to WSPD for providing him a vehicle to misinform the public.)
Anway, the one surprise to me in yesterday's plan was the outdoor amphitheater. I don't remember that idea ever being tossed around. Can an outdoor amphitheater be used 12 months a year in Toledo? What kind of winter usage does an outdoor amphitheater provide? Seems like wasted space if it cannot be used all year long. The problem with the arena is the fact that it would only be used about 130 days a year. One goal of the Marina District meeting was to come up with entertainment projects that could be used nearly every day of the year.
More from the Blade story:
"Still to be recruited are developers for 216 residential units, a destination retail outlet, a hotel, 45 stores and restaurants, a movie theater, and a lodge."
"Mr. Pizzuti said that the project would generate 1,800 jobs and an annual payroll of $42.4 million."
"The plan calls for several anchors, beginning at the south near Main Street, with an amphitheater with a covered stage. Moving north, a second anchor would be the cluster of condominiums, townhouses, and apartments, including an eight-story tower."
"Next along the riverfront would be the retail “town center,” which one official said would use Columbus’ Easton Town Center as its model. It would have 35 shops, 10 restaurants, a theater, and a “destination retailer.” A public marina and the passenger terminal would be next, using an existing inlet that the city has already begun dredging and widening for use as a marina. Pizzuti officials said the Toledo Lucas County Port Authority has money ready to begin construction."
Blade photo:
posted by jr at 08:41 A.M. EST on Wed Oct 12, 2005 #
The amphitheater is a great idea. It's relatively cheap to build and combats the problem of the brain drain Toledo is facing. Being in the under 30 age bracket myself, I've felt that an outdoor venue for music would be extremely benefittial to retaining recent college graduates. It's frustrating to have to go to Pine Knob north of Detroit to see a concert outdoors and I can't imagine a better backdrop for the amphitheater than the Maumee River. The Zoo's bandshell doesn't cut it and the only downside I see is that the residential construction may be too close to the amphitheater. Hopefully that won't be a problem considering the direction the amphitheater is laid out.
The terminal is another potential good idea, depending on whether or not ferries like the Jet Express can be enticed to provide service. A ferry to Put In Bay would probably be the most economically sound route, while a Toledo-Windsor could be another viable option. With the Detroit casinos giving Windsor a run for it's money, the Canadians might consider subsidizing the route.
The only question about this plan I have is the Lodge. What is it? What purpose does it serve?
Oh, and is it just me or are the "Lifestyle Centers" this decade's "Festival Marketplace"? Let's hope not.
posted by thenick at 10:22 A.M. EST on Wed Oct 12, 2005 #
How does the amphitheater combat brain drain in Toledo? It will have a season of 5 months tops. Are you trying to tell me that you would turn down a job offer so you can listen to outdoor music 5 months a year?
posted by jimavolt at 07:17 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 12, 2005 #
Thenick, the total capacity for Pine Knob is over 15,000. A 5,000 seat amphitheater isn't going to draw the kinds of shows that you're driving up north for already.
posted by valbee at 07:51 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 12, 2005 #
The amphitheater alone won't stop the brain drain, but it's a piece of the puzzle that will will. Toledo is large enough to draw bigger shows than we currently do, but we have a lack of outdoor facilities. There are plenty of large bands that will perform at a 5000 seat amphitheater. Dave Matthews probably wouldn't perform there, but John Mayer or OAR might. I think a lot of people underestimate how much impact two or three concerts in the summer like that will do to combat brain drain.
I love the whole idea of this project. This is something that Toledo has needed for years. The riverfront is amazing, the view of downtown is amazing, and the new bridge will make the whole area even more appleaing. If this project actually gets funding then it will be one of (if not the) most talked about developments in the state.
posted by HeyHey at 09:04 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 12, 2005 #
Toledo is large enough to draw bigger shows than we currently do, but we have a lack of outdoor facilities. There are plenty of large bands that will perform at a 5000 seat amphitheater.
I think I'll have to respectfully disagree with that assessment, HeyHey. There are two things in Toledo that hurt our ability to bring in larger names: location and radio.
Our location hurts us because people will drive to Pine Knob or Blossom or even Polaris (or whatever they're calling it these days) and won't think twice. Promoters know this and that's where they do the bookings.
What are the three top-rated music stations in Toledo? According to Arbitron's summer 05 ratings, K100 was ranked first, followed by 101.5 The River, then Kiss FM. Number four was WIOT.
I went to the websites of #2, 3 and 4 and looked at their top 10 lists. On WIOT's list, only one artist in the Top 10 is currently scheduled to perform in Toledo - 3 Doors Down at the Sports Arena, which I believe has a capacity of about 9000. Additionally, WIOT sponsors several shows at smaller venues: Harpos (Detroit), HOB (Cleveland), and the Newport (Columbus), to name just a few. Even though we have two similar capacity venues here in Toledo (Headliners and Club Bijou), the majority of their sponsored shows are elsewhere.
From the looks of their website, KISS FM is sponsoring Gwen Stefani and the Black Eyed Peas... at the Palace of Auburn Hills.
I didn't see a concert link on The River's site.
All three of these stations are owned by Clear Channel, which also owns SFX Entertainment, one of the largest (if not #1) concert promoters in the U.S.
It just seems to me that if it was profitable for the artists, the promoters would be bringing them here. But something is keeping them away and it seems unlikely that it's a lack of places to play.
posted by valbee at 11:35 P.M. EST on Wed Oct 12, 2005 #
As HeyHey pointed out, there are a number of bands that will play a 5k seat amphitheater, and it can be backed up by looking at Cleveland's Stage Pavilion. It is roughly the same size as the planned Toledo amphitheater and is able to draw in big names, despite the relative closeness of Blossom Music Center.
I think the location is what is going to draw bands into the area. Toledo is located at the intersection of two major highways, which will draw in a number of touring bands. Given that the nearest amphitheater is roughly two hours away, I doubt the location of Toledo is going to be a negative.
Like HeyHey said, you're going to get the mid-level acts, which have been avoiding the area due to a lack of decent venues. Yes, the Sports Hole can hold 9,000 people, but the acoustics are crap and let's face it, it's a dingy, dirty, rundown place. A new facility will be able to entice acts to play Toledo that might have shunned the area in the past because they don't like having to take turns in the dressing rooms at the Sports Arena.
posted by thenick at 01:56 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 13, 2005 #
Doesn't anyone remember JRB wanting an outdoor ampitheater and Ford promising to name it after (Paul?) Block who died and left a trust fund for parks????
The city can use the Parks Trust fund to pay for the ampitheater - and Ford already promised it a name, so this is more politics.
As for outdoor concerts, the only thing that's missing from Promonade park is a cover for the existing stage. It would be a ton cheaper to put up a roof and add a bathroom and "green room" there than to build a new ampitheater for only 5 months out of the year.
Personally, I like Promonade Park - you can do the picnic route, keep your whole group together, the kids can play and run around right in front of you...really delightful!
Question - do you really think groups will come to Toledo just to play in a new venue? This seems to me to be wishful thinking, but this is certainly far from my area of expertise.
posted by intrepid at 05:59 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 13, 2005 #
Yeah, we definitely would attract several bands. I attend quite a few concerts, and Toledo has some very good shows that come to town. There has been a spurt of concerts this fall by big name bands in the rock/alternative genre. Headliners and Club Bijou have brought in some good bands in the last couple months (Trapt, Seether, Crossfade, Gavin Degraw, and some more), there's a huge concert coming up in a couple weeks at the Sports Arena (Three Doors Down, Alter Bridge, and Shinedown), and the first American Idol winner had a concert at Seagate Center a couple months ago. The demand is definitely there, and I only know about this one genre. Most cities our size (and many smaller) have a summer concert series at their amphitheater once a week for a really good price. That would be something that could be added if we had a large amphitheater.
posted by HeyHey at 07:29 P.M. EST on Thu Oct 13, 2005 #
Sen. Randy Gardner was on the radio Friday afternoon saying that the state had set aside $7 million in capital improvement funds for the marina/arena project - 10 years ago.
He also said that if the arena is NOT part of the marina project, it changes the description of what was approved by the legislature and, if Toledo wants the money, they need to start the process over because what was previewed by Pizzuti is NOT in accordance with what they voted on.
This means that the Toledo Area Chamber of Commerce, which put together the original "white paper" of priorities has to meet again, modify the priorities and get legislative support in Columbus for the changes.
He said he's asked Jim Hoffman, president of a local bank and chairman of the white paper committee, to reconvene in NOVEMBER (read after the mayoral election) with his committee, along with local and state elected officials.
Now why in the world didn't Jack Ford know this was going to be a problem?!? Are our local political leaders so clueless that they didn't realize the rules under which they got funding?!? Shameful!
posted by intrepid at 06:01 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
The WSPD story:
"State Senator Randy Gardner and Representative Mark Wagoner, say some changes may be in order if the City of Toledo wants to retain previously approved state money for the Marina Project. The need follows the decision to remove the ice arena from the mix. They say new budget language must be enacted if the $7.5-million in funds are to be utilized for an ice arena at a different location and for the new plan which excluded the facility. They want to recvonvene the Toledo Area White Paper Capital Budget Committee to address the situation, and suggest that perhaps, since the funds haven't been used in the 3-years they have been on the books, perhaps they should be redirected to other projects in the region."
Unbelievable. Where did this Hail Mary to preserve an east-side arena come from? Get too many politicans invovled and nothing happens.
The Marina District project is suppose to be a $200 million endeavor. It shouldn't be held hostage because of only $7.5 million that can only be used if a new sports arena goes to the east side. Tell Gardner and Wagoner to pound sand and to spend their money elsewhere. Unfortunately, that won't happen.
The Pizzuti Marina District project is already doomed. This Gardner-Wagoner crap is one bad sign and so is Carty's statement that if he's elected he will look to bring in another developer. In the 2009 election, the non-existent Marina District and sports arena projects will still be a campaign issue. Meanwhile the burbs continue to grow and prosper and attract businesses and residents from Toledo.
Give the $7.5 million to Wood County.
posted by jr at 09:08 A.M. EST on Sat Oct 15, 2005 #
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