The title for this WTOL story is: "Plans for Downtown Arena Moving Forward."
Mmmm, okay. Moving forward, we've heard that before. The arena and marina district projects have "moved forward" so much over the past few years that I think they're being built in Grand Haven. They've moved right out of the state.
A list of postings here over the past three years, relating to a new sports arena and/or the Marina District.
From the WTOL story that started this topic.
"Commissioner Gerken says he will meet with Gateway Consultants soon. He says they can skip over the feasibility studies and get right to work figuring out how to fund the project."
Gateway Consultants is home of Tom Chema who helped with the Mud Hens stadium, and he was a consultant for the Ford administration.
Mayor Ford's January 2003 state of the city speech. I think back then, the arena was part of the Marina District project.
"We continue to work on the Marina Project. We now have a blueprint for this project--the Chema Report--and I will be leading the effort to partner with the state, county, port authority and the private sector to get this project done. I thank Tom for his clear report on this issue. We also got the message: Seek as much private funding as possible-- We’ve already started that."
A July 2003 posting about a Ray Kest plan for a new arena:
"With the city’s plans for a new East Toledo sports arena uncertain, Lucas County Treasurer Ray Kest has renewed and polished up his plan for a downtown arena that would pay for itself. Under Mr. Kest’s plan, a new sports arena of up to 14,000 seats could be built next to Fifth Third Field and connected to SeaGate Centre by a raised walkway."
From an Oct 2003 posting:
"... the proposed new concert and sports arena would require no new or additional taxes to be funded. An accompanying letter from the city’s consultant, Tom Chema, of Cleveland, suggests the arena would receive private financing."
"In January, Mr. Chema issued a report under a previous consulting contract saying that private financing of a new arena was unlikely, and recommended the city enact a new tax on alcohol and cigarettes to finance an arena. Mr. Ford initially endorsed the idea, then backed away."
A June 2004 posting that contains Ray Kest's letter to Allan Block where Kest outlines some of his achievements.
"I lobbied the Mud Hens Board and the Commissioners to hire a consultant to support my proposal; they eventually did (hiring Tom Chema)."
From a May 2005 posting:
"Tom Chema, who planned the financing for the downtown Toledo baseball park that opened three years ago, said Fifth Third Field's presence near the SeaGate Convention Centre has encouraged nearby entertainment and residential development, and an arena should probably be sited nearby."
A July 2005 comment by intrepid about the Hens stadium:
"Tom Chema (highly respected by JRB) was brought in by Jim Ruvalo to see Isenberg and he was hired to be the consultant on the new ballpark. The location was determined (many public meetings) and the financing plan put into place. Public was still really mad that the commissioners first action was to increase taxes - rejected soundly - before looking at other ways to finance the work."
posted by jr at 06:39 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 09, 2006 #
Even babbleman might like this Toledo Tales exclusive on the arena announcement by the county commissioners.
posted by Subcomandante_bob at 07:46 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 09, 2006 #
I would also like to submit as a topic for discussion related to this thread:
What do you think are potential locations of a new arena?
Considering the arena would be a "mega block" in the fashion of the Seagate Center or 5/3 Field, some buildings would utlimately have to be torn down. My only tought, without much consideration, would be near Erie Street Market. What do you think?
posted by lloyd at 09:21 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 09, 2006 #
Reviewing Jr's link to Kest's proposal affirms my questioning of location. Kest's proposal seemed to make sense, but it appears that it would interupt the flow of Summit Street (if the tunnel isn't built).
My concern is the creation of another "mega block". I think it would have made more sense if 5/3 field would have been built up to Summit Street and then Superior would not have been interupted. Does anyone know why this didn't happen?
posted by lloyd at 09:35 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 09, 2006 #
I could be wrong here, but go to Aries and look up the guy who owns the most buildings, (or bought options to buy them) in the most concentrated area and then find out who he is connected to. That's where the Arena will go.
posted by SherryET at 09:59 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 09, 2006 #
I don't know why Toledo built the Hens stadium first. It can't be because discussion about a Hens stadium began before talk about a new arena. Where the Hens stadium is located, that's where the arena should have been built. An arena is used at least 120 days per year while the Hens stadium is used maybe 70-80 days.
One of my favorite postings on the topic is this one about a June 2004 Toledo City Paper story.
"[Lou Anne] Mills was one of the first to raise the arena issue publicly when she and SSOE architect Charlie Stark produced a 57-page report in 1993 promoting the benefits and feasibilities of a new 15,000-seat arena adjacent to the SeaGate Convention Centre."
"In 2000 Mills’ momentum was cut short by Columbus developer Frank Kass’ $175 million proposal to develop the eastside Marina District, which included a new sports arena as its centerpiece. Citing a lack of progress from Kass, the city accepted a new proposal for the Marina District from River East Joint Venture. City officials have announced their abandonment of the proposal, due to financial concerns by the mayor. A request for proposals for developing the Marina District will once again be sent out."
In 1993 a plan existed to build an arena near SeaGate. Did talks about a new Hens stadium begin before 1993? Why didn't Carty get the arena built during his eight years of office?
More from that TCP story:
"The impact of an arena on the SeaGate Centre is another concern. According to SeaGate Director Jim Donnelly, an arena on the East Side would hurt both businesses, causing neither to “meet their projected numbers.” Conversely, if an arena is built proximate to SeaGate, Donnelly said the synergy would cause those numbers to grow."
"One question then is how many buildings would need to go to make room for an arena Downtown. [The arena options] which surround SeaGate, are mostly parking lots with only a few occupied buildings."
"Yet for surrounding Downtown residents, an arena could be devastating, according to Kathy Steingraber, director of the Toledo Warehouse District Association. At one of Mills’ sites east of Fifth Third Field, Steingraber pointed to three buildings where high-paying tenants would lose their river view."
"Richard Rideout, owner of the One S. St. Clair building, who has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in its renovation, said such an obstruction would cut his property value in half. Describing it as an “ominous big box” too large for Toledo’s capacity, Steingraber said of an arena, “We’ll no longer have a downtown if one goes in.” "
"According to Clayton Johnston, head of the Downtown Toledo Parking Authority, Downtown would have no problem accommodating arena parking. Estimating an average of 2.4 people per car, he said about 4,200 spaces would be needed for a 10,000-seat arena. Though daytime parking was a problem, Johnston said there were almost 6,500 available spaces for evening events. Because of such a “parking infrastructure” already in place, Johnston said the city could use parking revenues to help finance or at least “relieve some of the debt” for a new arena."
posted by jr at 11:16 P.M. EST on Mon Jan 09, 2006 #
I think it should go as close to 5/3 Field and the Seagate Center as possible. Ideally there would be a catwalk between the Seagate Center and the arena for convenience sake. I think we need to take a close look at how Lexington, KY, has their downtown set up. While their downtown is considerably smaller than Toledo's, they have a convention sites, hotels, and Rupp Arena (home of the Kentucky Wildcats and other events) all within a 4 block area. It is possible to get to all of the buildings without ever going out into the elements, which has to be a big draw for large conventions.
Unfortunately I don't see that happening without tearing down some major buildings or disrupting Summit St. If we were open to disrupting Summit then we could place it in a block bounded by Monroe to the North, Washington to the South, St. Clair to the west, and the small waterway divinding OC's headquaters from the rest of downtown.
Maybe another option would be to disrupt St. Clair South of Washington and put the arena in the space bounded by Superior to the west, Summit to the east, Washington to the north, and Lafayette to the South. That leaves the arena directly adjacent to 5/3 Field and a block away from Seagate Center. It would be very easy and relatively inexpensive to build a catwalk for that one block over to seagate center.
posted by HeyHey at 12:23 A.M. EST on Tue Jan 10, 2006 #
Thanks for the input. I saw this from WSPD
Gerken says it may take 36-months to get the plan together and the project underway but the time is now and it shoud be a "to do" item.
My question: what the heck has been going on the past 36 months!
posted by lloyd at 01:38 A.M. EST on Tue Jan 10, 2006 #
Lloyd,
They were focused on getting the steamplant project going.
As you can tell when you go past the Steamplant, David Ball and company have been feverishly focused on getting one of Toledo's premier living facilities put together, and with all that energy getting that Jack Ford/Bill Carroll project completed in the next 3 months or so, that may free up some construction workers to get the Arena put together.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 03:55 A.M. EST on Tue Jan 10, 2006 #
The words "arena" and "ampitheatre", when mentioned by any Toledo news outlet, are instant jokes.
Maybe if unigov (another joke) ever happens, something will happen with that half-done stuff in Perrysburg/Rossford.
In the meantime, Toledo will continue to make "consultants" richer by paying for studies and reports that just repeat what previous studies and reports have said.
I would say that Toledo would get a lot farther if a lot of people would drop their egos, but since y'all just elected the Grand High Master of Ego, Carty Finkbeiner, again... well, it'll be interesting to watch the continued deteoriation of Woodville and Southwyck Malls, Westgate wanking, etc.
There's still prime real estate in Maumee and Perrysburg... easier access from BG and most points east and west of Toledo as well (getting into downtown sucks, let's face it).
posted by anonymouscoward at 04:11 A.M. EST on Tue Jan 10, 2006 #
From that WSPD story: "Lucas County Commissioner Pete Gerken says he will request commissioners approval to hire Gateway Consultants , Tom Chema's company of Cleveland, to kick start the arena project for downtown Toledo. Gerken says Chema brought the 5th 3rd field to a reality without costing the taxpayers a dime,and he can do the same for the arena."
How many times do you kick-start something before you finally junk it?
36-months to get the plan together and the project underway. What does that mean get the plan together and the project underway? Are they talking about designing an arena, obtaining funding, buying the land, remediating the land, and building the arena all in 36 months? If so, fantastic. But somehow I doubt that's the case.
It sounds like it will be at least three years before the first building is torn down to make room for the new arena. It will take, what, six months to a year to remediate the site? I think it will take 12-15 months to build an arena. That means we'll be in the next decade before a new arena opens in Toledo. The grand opening won't happen during Carty's third term as mayor.
My prediction last June was:
"The grand opening for a new sports arena anywhere in downtown Toledo is probably at least five years away. It won't happen during the next term of whoever is mayor."
That certainly was no going-out-on-a-limb prediction. Replace probably with definitely. In fact, it may go slower than expected with that "36 months" comment. A more realistic prediction now for the grand opening of the new arena is 2012, which will be the 10-year anniversary of the opening of the new Hens stadium.
posted by jr at 12:06 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 10, 2006 #
2012? You do know the Apocalypse is scheduled for December 21, 2012, yes?
posted by anonymouscoward at 12:29 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 10, 2006 #
Jan 10 Blade story:
"Commissioner Maggie Thurber, the lone Republican on the board, said yesterday that a primary priority should be constructing a new county jail because the current facility is crowded."
Well, that is an issue. Government is necessary for the non-sexy projects like building jails, sewer drains, roads, bridges, and sidewalks. And things like water, garbage pick-up, tree-trimming, and providing safety. The important things that don't get a lot of pub. These are the offensive linemen of government-supported projects. They only get mentioned when something goes wrong. After a new drain is put in, have you ever gone out and looked at it and said, "Damn, that thing is working well." Or stood along a renovated road and said, "Look how easy that traffic is flowing now."
But like AC said, it's the flashy projects that the politicians stumble over each other to get their names attached. The quarterback, runningback, and wide receiver projects. Everyone wants to cozy up to the stars. And that's why almost 20 years will have elapsed from the first plan about a new arena and the actual reality of a new arena.
We can live without an arena, but we need good water mains, roads, and police and fire protection. Toledo govt needs to let Chema do his thing, again, without a lot of interference from Toledo govt. Like that will happen.
More from the Blade story:
"Local officials have agreed a new 10,000-seat sports arena should be downtown, within walking distance of SeaGate Centre. The arena would be in one of four locations around SeaGate."
"Mr. Gerken said he would propose Lucas County pay for a study by Tom Chema's Gateway Consulting. "The major question for me is, 'Can it be paid for in a responsible way?' " Mr. Gerken said."
Can't Toledo dust off one or two of the other studies?
Bob McCloskey said:
"I've argued this, and I'm tired. It ends up like a pissing match, and it makes [us] sound like a bunch of adolescents to argue location. It's [about] what's practical. It's time to move on, let's get the thing built, because the [construction] numbers keep rising, and it's never going to get cheaper."
More from the story:
"The county and city would need to work together. The three Lucas County commissioners could approve revenue bonds to finance the project without voter approval. However, Toledo City Council would need to approve utility improvements for the arena, among other issues."
"The price for a new arena appears to be the major stumbling block, with recent estimates ranging from $50 million to $90 million. The project would probably be paid for using county revenue bonds, which would be paid back from proceeds from the arena's operations, such as sky box sales, Mr. Chema said."
"He said he thought the cost would be closer to $50 million, and said there would be administrative savings by pairing the facility with the convention center. Putting the arena elsewhere would result in two publicly owned spaces competing against each other, which Mr. Chema said would not make sense."
A bit about the Marina District project:
"Elected officials said the proposed Marina District project needs to be moving forward for them to justify support for relocating the arena to downtown. The success of the estimated $163 million marina project on 125 acres would be a trade-off for East Toledo losing the arena, they said."
"To move forward, however, the Marina District project still needs a commitment from a retail anchor. Council President Rob Ludeman said the city was close to a deal, but declined to give details."
Bass Pro World?
posted by jr at 12:31 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 10, 2006 #
Isn't there suppose to be a minor "incident" this June? You know, June 6, 2006 -> 666.
posted by jr at 12:34 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 10, 2006 #
Another study! Man, I'm in the wrong business.
posted by lloyd at 04:52 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 10, 2006 #
"To move forward, however, the Marina District project still needs a commitment from a retail anchor. Council President Rob Ludeman said the city was close to a deal, but declined to give details."
Bass Pro World?
No... Carty's going to personally buy the Erie Street Market, and then convince the city to barge it across the river.
Then, if anyone in the area doesn't like the noise from the marina and related business, Carty will sieze their property under eminent domain and sell it to a deaf person.
posted by anonymouscoward at 05:39 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 10, 2006 #
Oh Brother.
If anything, it's nice to see that they're reading the site! :)
posted by BrianInFlorida at 03:16 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 11, 2006 #
Why is everyone all excited about "Bass Pro World"? Is this the "big anchor" everyone is talking about? Aren't they in many malls, and isn't Cabella's down the road?
Or is "Bass Pro World" just the rumor that is going around?
posted by lloyd at 07:06 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 11, 2006 #
As far as I know, Bass Pro World was a rumor from last summer. I heard it mentioned at a New Urbanism meeting. My June 24, 2005 comment about it:
"I think it was at the [May] meeting when someone mentioned that Bass Pro Shops Outdoor World would occupy the old Edison plant on the east side."
From a May 25, 2005 Blade op-ed about the Marina District project that was mentioned in this topic:
"The project model discussed in March included the prospect of a major retail anchor, a huge store on the order of 200,000 square feet, and we continue to hear rumbles that the arena might in fact give way to a big-box store in the "outdoors" business, perhaps a competitor of the giant Cabela's store in Monroe County."
The Blade op-ed writer didn't like the oudoors superstore idea:
"That would be a ridiculous use of valuable riverfront property."
I don't know about being in malls, but little Bass Pro Shops fishig tackle stores exist. When I lived in Marysville, I used to visit the small Bass Pro Shops at Indian Lake. But a Bass Pro World is huge. They are stand-alone destination places.
Do you realize that the top or one of the top "tourist" attractions in Michigan is Cabela's in Dundee? It's my favorite store. I don't go every month, but it's easy to spend three hours in Cabela's. And every time I go, I notice more new businesses built around it. Have you seen that area? The hotels, the restaurants, etc., all built since Cabela's opened in the fall of 2000.
A new Cabela's opened a year or two ago near Wheeling, which is not far from my hometown, and the same kind of development is occurring around it. Literally busloads of people visit Cabela's and stay the weekend.
The reason why I wouldn't expect a Bass Pro World is because Cabela's is less than 30 minutes away. Not many Cabela's superstores exist. I wonder if another situation exists in the U.S. where Cabela's and Bass Pro are located less than 30 minutes apart? Maybe they have agreements with each other or at least internally to not build one of their superstores so close to a competitor.
posted by jr at 08:56 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 11, 2006 #
I found this website I thought you all might be interested in:
http://www.clipfile.org
From the website:
http://www.clipfile.org/clips/000305.php
It appears that talks in the past had the baseball stadium on the east side, and an ice arena where the stadium is now.
posted by lloyd at 01:16 P.M. EST on Sun Jan 15, 2006 #
Earlier this month, we had some Bass Pro talk above.
NBC 24 reported on Jan 17:
"Mayor Carty Finkbeiner traveled with a team to Missouri last week in hopes of luring Bass Pro Shops to be the centerpiece of the Marina District. The mayor hopes Bass Pro will build a multi-story mega-store behind the old Acme Power Plant, a story that could open in early 2007."
"The Marina District master site plan calls for a 150,000 square-foot "destination retailer" to anchor the whole project. NBC-24 saw firsthand that site is ready to build on, meaning the Bass Pro project could be on a fast track if a deal gets done soon."
"NBC-24 has learned Mayor Finkbeiner, Lucas County Commissioner Pete Gerken and Marina District developer Ron Pizzuti traveled to Bass Pro headquarters in Springfield, Missouri, to meet with officials from the outdoor retailer."
"City officials emphasize there's no deal signed yet, and they're chasing other potential retails for the Marina District."
"But sources tell NBC-24 Bass Pro Shops would be a perfect fit between a public marina/boat launch, and a boat repair/storage facility that would located in the old Acme Power Plant."
"This is the second try to lure Bass Pro Shops to the Marina District. Former mayor Jack Ford hoped the outdoor outfitter would go into the former Acme Power Plant, a deal that failed because city officials could not guarantee asbestos would be removed from the site in time for a 2007 grand opening."
posted by jr at 11:14 P.M. EST on Tue Jan 17, 2006 #
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