Another question looming is the fate of the empty, 30-story Owens Corning Fiberglas Tower, which sits on Summit Street and could be razed as part of a downtown arena project. It used to be the corporate headquarters of Owens Corning before the firm relocated to the Middlegrounds area on the Maumee River.
Others say the top floors of the Fiberglas Tower might be converted to high-priced condominiums that would be integrated into an arena campus and would have a view of the Maumee River.
The "Others" mentioned in this article must be smoking some top quality stuff if they think that building will be redeveloped. I'd bet just about anything that the Fiberglass Tower will be knocked down for two reasons:
1. It's got a lot of asbestos insulation.
2. The sprinkler system only goes up to the 13th floor.
Try getting someone to move into a highrise without sprinklers, pre- or post-9/11.
posted by thenick at 04:57 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 07, 2006 #
Here is Section 79 of the Toledo City Charter as ammended on 9/11/01.
Section 79. Compulsory referendum of certain measures - franchises.
No ordinance or resolution for a public improvement requiring or authorizing the expenditure of more than fifteen percent (15%) of the average gross annual current operating expenditures by the City for the five (5) fiscal years immediately preceding, or for the granting of a general public utility franchise, shall be effective until the same shall be approved by a majority vote of the electors voting thereon; provided, however, no convention center, exhibit hall, sports arena, or municipal theater, other than a sports arena located in the City's Marina District, being the area bounded by the Maumee River, Interstate Highway 280, Front Street and Main Street, shall be constructed, acquired, or leased unless the ordinance or resolution authorizing construction bidding, acquisition, or leasing shall have been approved by a majority vote of the electors voting thereon, whether or not such ordinance or resolution requires or authorizes the expenditure of more or less than fifteen percent (15%) of the average gross annual current operating expenditures by the City for the five (5) fiscal years immediately preceding. A general public utility is one in which all the people of the City may have an interest.
(Amended by electors 9-11-01)
I am not a law professor, but if I read this correctly, the vote to have the arena constructed on the East Side Marina District properties expires after 5 years (09/11/06). If this is true we should postpone anyconversation about the Arena being built in Downtown untill September 11, 2006.
Correct me if I am wrong.
posted by KraZyKat at 05:39 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 07, 2006 #
Wait a minute... I think I get it!
The city cannot authorizes the expenditure of more or less than fifteen percent (15%) of the average gross annual current operating expenditures by the City for the five (5) fiscal years immediately preceding without going to the voters. Not limiting the construction of the Arena to the East Side for 5 years.
However, it does state "other than a sports arena located in the City's Marina District, being the area bounded by the Maumee River, Interstate Highway 280, Front Street and Main Street,
I dont take that as a firm commitment to build a Sports Arena on the East Side, only that the city can authorize the expenditures for building one there without the approval by a majority vote of the electors voting thereon
posted by KraZyKat at 05:59 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 07, 2006 #
Krazykat - the arena can be built in the marina district without the city spending money for the construction. In fact, the city can spend money toward infrastructure and other items - just not direct support like for construction - even if it's built in downtown.
I will have an article in the Free Press tomorrow - part one of two - on the arena. It will also be posted on my blog (thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com) after publication.
posted by MaggieThurber at 06:48 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 07, 2006 #
Thanks for the clarification Maggie. FYI...I have linked your blog to mine @ Toledo Speaks Out. I look forward to your article and reading your updated blog.
posted by KraZyKat at 07:01 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 07, 2006 #
The borders mentioned seem to be slightly misleading. It would seem more accurate to say: between Jefferson and Madison between St. Clair to Huron. This is because the National City Bank building with its huge parking lot is in this area along with the Sky Bank building. Is the plan to build around these buildings?
I like this idea because it does not create another mega-block off sync with 5/3rd field. The people who live in the Commodore Perry will be in heaven. What a location to be in!
Also, the Blade mentions the Toledo Ice. Heavens to Betsy, I thought they forgot about them...
Is the other top secret area near Spaghetti Warehouse close to Erie St?
Btw, here is a neat link to some satellite photos:
http://local.live.com/
posted by lloyd at 07:10 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 07, 2006 #
thank you, krazykat
posted by MaggieThurber at 07:16 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 07, 2006 #
I don't really understand the debate as to why people on the east side feel they're entitled to the sports arena. A referendum was passed some years ago on a day that most people, except those east siders that cared so much about the issue, probably had their attention on something else that day other than this vote. If they had put this issue on the ballot during the November general election, then I guarantee it would not have passed. Simply put, it does not make any sense to put the building on the east side. There is only one road that leads to the Marina site, and the average west sider would still travel further than an east sider to get to a site downtown. Further, a strong city with a strong economy typically has a central entertainment district (sports complexes, bars, restaurants, etc). It needs to be downtown. I say the city puts another vote up for referendum to reverse the law.
posted by junta330 at 10:01 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 07, 2006 #
So true junta330,
I remember going to vote on that dreadful day. I did so because I always try to vote in every election (even the primaries) and the media hyped it up rightfully so. But the last thing on my mind was reading through all the ballot issues as carefully as I probably would have otherwise. My thoughts were with the victims of the horrible attacks the country suffered on that day. I was more interested in going home to spend time with my family, to attempt to provide an explaination of what happen and why to the kids ages 7 and 10 at the time, and to watch the coverage on TV.
posted by KraZyKat at 10:53 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 07, 2006 #
Correct me if I'm wrong (I wasn't in Toledo at the time of the vote), but the referendum wasn't really a choice between downtown and the eastside. It seemed like it was presented more as a Eastside or nothing vote. I think if the referendum had a choice between the Eastside and Downtown then downtown would have won. If it were eastside or nothing then I would have voted for it too even though I strongly feel it should be downtown next to 5/3 Field and Seagate Center.
There's no question that the arena should go downtown. I know it's counterintuitive, but the Eastside will become more prosperous if the arena locates downtown than if it were to locate in the Eastside.
posted by HeyHey at 11:33 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 07, 2006 #
I agree 100% HeyHey and KraZyKat, that was a tough day for us all. At the time, my brother was in the World Trade Center the day before, and in Washington the day of. Many of my college friends travelled through the Pentagon Metro station the day of as well. I'm lucky that everything worked out in the end for me, but there were many who didn't have such a luxury. It seems to me that we should do what we always do, and completely ignore the eastside. After all, they continuously elect Bob McCloskey and their judgment should be questioned. That guy is a bonified idiot.
posted by junta330 at 12:01 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
"...we should do what we always do, and completely ignore the eastside.
I think you just explained why East Siders are fighting so hard for this arena.
-Dan
posted by photodan at 12:19 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Damn right.
posted by junta330 at 12:47 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
And we should continue to ignore them.
posted by junta330 at 12:48 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
I should apologize, I should explain my point of view. I think Lucas County should be a consolidated government. Meaning, the rich suburbs of the west should be part of Toledo. Ottawa Hills, Sylvania, and all of Lucas County should be one strong city government. This would increase our state and federal funding because the population would grow to nealry 700,000, and in response these suburbians would invest in downtown. The east side has nothing to offer in capital (at least compared to the west side). Oregon and East Toledo are not nearly as wealthy as the western suburbs. Of course, the western burbs might be adverse to this approach, but in the long run it would benefit them because Toledo would do better and they would make more money as individuals. So long as you keep the school districts the same, Toledo would benefit greatly. New capital, new investments, and better education. All of these things would benefit toledo. I know that there are many in Ottawa Hills that would support such a consolidation movement, because they realize it would benefit them and everybody else in the county. I fear that's the outer belts of western lucas county, and east toledo and oregon, would object. For the benefit of our future success, this is fundamentally necessary.
posted by junta330 at 01:08 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
After all, they continuously elect Bob McCloskey and their judgment should be questioned. That guy is a bonified idiot.
Excuse me!? I warned you people about Bob before the last election, and it seems to me you are the ones who voted him in. He did run for an At-Large seat. So you can blame all of Toledo for that screw up, not just the East Side.
On another point, if you people had no other choice than to vote to put the Arena on the Easy Side, then why did you vote for the amendment. You could have said NO!
And one more thing, why does everyone claim that Docks are DOWNTOWN? They are on the EAST SIDE. Either we are part of downtown or we're not. Now which is it?
posted by SherryET at 01:33 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Apparently you missed my point SherryET. You warned nobody. This blog only has some 400 members. Regardless, you missed my point on why people didn't vote against the referendum. It was September 11th. THE September 11th. The only people that went out to vote that day were people that really wanted to support the Sports Arena on the East side. The docks are on the east side, but barely. You won't get shot going to the docks.
posted by junta330 at 01:41 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
I fail to understand why people don't want the arena on it's existing spot. Rebuild it where it is. Parking and traffic problems are solved. No conflict with Fifth Third Field.
posted by starling02 at 01:53 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
The docks are on the east side, but barely.
What map are you looking at? I didn't miss your point. I knew what I was voting for or against before THE 9-11. Didn't you?
posted by SherryET at 01:55 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Oh Jesus Christ, way to take my quote out of context SherryET (that's the second time you've quoted me very conveniently). Have you driven to the docks from the west side? You cross the MLK bridge and take a quick right, and then you don't get shot. Further, it matters not on any decision before 9.11, it matters whether you chose to turn out on 9.11 which i fear many didn't. As to your comment starling02, a noted earlier that a strong entertainment district is necessary for the benefit of Toledo and Lucas county. That would include moving the sports arena to downtown. A strong business/entertainment district will strongly benefit the local economy (it will spread from there, and the east side isn't too far away). Now, I didn't want to do this before, but I've studied urban economics extensively, cum laude in fact, and i'm certain that these things are necessary. It's a shame that such dissent can exist when there's an obvious solution.
posted by junta330 at 02:05 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
To be precise there are 628 members nor is this a "blog" it's a forum or if you prefer a message board.
1. City of Toledo - amendment For: 24674 67.9%
Marina District Project Agnst: 11680 32.1%
27.1 % of the registered voters according to the Lucas County Board of Elections...
District 3 votes?
City of Toledo - amendment For: 1179 62.7%
Marina District Project Agnst: 701 37.3%
Registered voters 9750 2505 voted or 25.7%
So that means that 23,495 Non East Siders voted for the East side to have the arena...
Want to see for yourself? Check out the Board of Elections website.
http://www.co.lucas.oh.us/boe/ElectionAbstracts.asp
posted by psyche777 at 02:13 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
We could next look at the City weekly Crime stats, but I think you get the point, whether you are cum laude or not, facts are facts.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 02:22 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Junta330 wrote: Meaning, the rich suburbs of the west should be part of Toledo. Ottawa Hills, Sylvania, and all of Lucas County should be one strong city government. This would increase our state and federal funding because the population would grow to nealry 700,000, and in response these suburbians would invest in downtown.
Wrong! Lucas County's population is just under 451,000, so combining all the cities into one will not result in a population of 700,000. And our population is declining. The 451,000 is from 2004 Census data. In 2000, the population was around 455,000.
Further, people live in communities for various reasons. If "suburbanites" wanted to live in Toledo, they would. Forcing them to become a part of Toledo could result in them leaving the County - not deciding to invest in downtown Toledo.
That being said, I don't want a facility that focuses your attention INWARD on our prime waterfront property, but there's plenty of room in the Marina district for an arena.
Regardless of your perspective on the actual waiver of Section 79, the voters have spoken. If you want to build the arena elsewhere - go back to the voters.
posted by MaggieThurber at 07:01 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Thanks, but no, Junta. As a suburbanite, I fled Toledo to get away from its ridiculously high taxes, inept government, and pathetic schools.
I don't want my tax dollars poured down that rat hole we call Toledo government.
Should we go unigov, I'll move to Wood County.
posted by MemyselfandI at 07:16 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Psyche, 23,000 is nothing, plus they had no options. Maggie Thurber, you are correct about the population of lucas county. I'd actually prefer a metro-government including wood county (I was using the metro population, not the county population). But your kind of backward thinking is exactly why I won't vote for you. Same old toledo politics. And, if you read carefully, I suggested that they put the vote back up to the Toledo voters as well.
posted by junta330 at 09:02 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
from junta:
The only people that went out to vote that day were people that really wanted to support the Sports Arena on the East side
from sherryET:
if you people had no other choice than to vote to put the Arena on the Easy Side, then why did you vote for the amendment. You could have said NO!
I need to remind you that the vote on Sept. 11,2001 was not a yes/no vote to build the sports Arena on the East Side. It simply ammended the City Charter giving the city permission to spend monies to build a Sports Arena on the East Side without further voter approval.
posted by KraZyKat at 10:23 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
I disagree that the arena should be downtown. There are many people that won't go downtown for anything. Manym of us stopped going to the Mud Hens when they moved downtown. Same with the fireworks and anything at Seagate Centre. Whenever anything is downtown it costs a lot more. For example the RV show. When it is at the Rec Center it costs $3.oo to get in and free parking. When it at Seagate Centre it costs $10.00 plus $5.00 to park. Looking forward to Riboff in Maumee.
posted by deere1 at 10:29 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Junta:
Didn't Toledo pass a few laws prohibiting guns recently? Maybe the problem is that there aren't enough laws against guns on the East side. You should draft a few more and send them to Carty. He'll get you some results, and think of all the people who won't be getting shot after your new legislation is passed!
I live in Sylvania. My folks live in Sylvania Township, which is where I really want to live. Why would I want to live in Toledo? The government is a failure, the city is a gravel pit. In Toledo my taxes will be higher and my services will be fewer and of poorer quality. You advocate more of this? Thanks, but no thanks.
In short, take your metro government idea and shove it where the sun don't shine.
I support Maggie Thurber and I'm going to contribute to her war chest, mainly because of her response to your high handed propaganda.
posted by madjack at 10:35 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
The Sep 11, 2001 vote was for the Marina District project and not specifically for a new sports arena, right? The Marina District will be a mixed-use development that includes Toledo's first full-service public boat marina, retail, entertainment, residential, and maybe other types of businesses. The sports arena was simply one of many things that could be part of the Marina District project.
The Sep 11, 2001 vote said city money could be used for the Marina District project, right? I suppose that since the arena was initially part of the Marina District project that if the arena is built outside of the Marina District, then city dollars cannot be used for the arena, which is why the county is more involved in the arena project now. Is that right? The arena can be built anywhere in Toledo, but city dollars can only be used if the arena is built in the Marina District. That's what the 2001 vote said, right?
First of all, if the arena is not 100% privately funded, it will be a loser for the city. That's according to people who have studied arena development around the U.S. Arenas are not the economic engines that people have been led to believe.
I still believe the Marina District and the other areas on the east side near the district will be one of THE places to go, live, work in 5 to 10 years. I believe it will be one of the "hot spots" in northwest Ohio. It will be vastly superior to anything built in the soybean fields by Levis Commons.
The Marina District project is one part of a much larger east side project. The Marina District is basically the land between the MLK bridge and the new I-280 bridge. But the "whole" east side development includes the Docks and going upstream to the new Starboard condos and still going further upstream to the Rossford border. It will also include going further downstream past the new I-280 bridge. These areas outside of the Marina District are obviously long-term projects, but the Starboard condos will be expanding.
And remember this, the Marina District project will be completed or mostly completed before a new sports arena opens no matter what location is chosen on the west side for the arena. The new boat marina in the Marina District is expected to be completed by the end of 2007. If Bass Pro chooses to build in the Marina District, it's expected to open in 2007.
Bass Pro is open 364 days a year, and it brings in people from 50 to 150 or more miles away. Some Bass Pros attract four million visitors per year. It's a major destination retail place that will spur on other development and help other businesses.
An arena is only "open" 120 days per year. If you're lucky, maybe 150. Being open only 1/3 of the year is not going sustain other businesses very well, which is why I believe the new Hens stadium is way overrated in terms of its importance to downtown Toledo's revitilization. The Hens stadium is only "open" 60 or 70 days per year. It's great that the Hens stadium is downtown, but the Hens stadium and a new arena are each pieces of the big puzzle of downtown development. And yes, downtown, does include both side of the river. The east side alreayd has the "small town" or "urban village" feel to it. And both sides of the river in downtown Toledo were already changing for the better before the Hens stadium opened.
A new Toledo arena will not bring in people from Cleveland and Columbus, since those cities already have arenas. The only Bass Pro in Ohio is in Cincinnati. No Cabela's exist in Ohio. Even if you have no interest in a Bass Pro, you may have interest in the other businesses that pop up around the Bass Pro.
An arena on the east side is a massive waste of space because of all the surface asphalt parking that would be needed. To minimize land waste on the east side due to parking for the arena, a parking garage would need to be built, and I think that's an additional $20 million cost. Now to be sure, the Marina District will still have a good bit of surface asphalt parking to support whatever else is built there, but it will be spread out across the entire 125-acre piece of land. Studies have shown that the west side of downtown has enough parking available already to support a new arena.
To me, a new arena is at least five to seven years away from opening. Think about it. No location is chosen yet. There will probably be a fight by someone over the choice of the location on the west side of the river. Then the land for the location has to be purchased, right? Then the land has to be remediated, which means tearing down buildings. How long will this process take? Then a finance plan has to be created. Will that go to a vote? Then the arena design has to be created. The design will take months maybe longer as ego-maniac politicians and whoever want their ideas in the design. Look how much Carty and the county are interfering with the design of Westgate. Now think about how these people will butt heads over the design of a new arena. Will the design have to be voted on? Then the arena has to be built, which will probably take 12-15 months. I predict a new arena will open in 2012 at the earliest. By then, the Marina District will be so far along in its development that east-siders won't even think about the arena, and they will be glad they never got the arena.
Yes, that 700,000 population number is seriously wrong. Toledo's population is only around 310,000. According to this data, Toledo's MSA population in 2004 is 616,829. But Toledo's MSA includes the following counties: Fulton, Lucas, Ottawa, and Wood. The Toledo empire needs to get an army if it wants to conquer those other counties.
So much has already been written on this site about the sports arena and the Marina District. Maybe a summary page or a FAQ needs to be created for the newer people here. Here are links to listings of topics here about the sports arena and the Marina District. Some are the same, since the two projects have been considerd the same thing at times.
Marina District
Sports arena
My argument from last month for a Bass Pro going into the Marina District instead of a new sports arena.
Chapter VI, Section 79 of the Toledo City Charter, that's what Toledoans created or changed with their vote in Sep 2001, right?
A psyche777 comment from Jul 07, 2005 that quoted from a May 25, 2005 Toledo Free Press article that was an interview with George Sarantou.
"George Sarantou: In September 2001, voters passed the Marina District authorization allowing the City to spend money on the utility and infrastructure work on an arena to be built in East Toledo [City Charter Section 79].
ES: Were a developer to build an arena downtown, wouldn’t this bypass the voters?
GS: It would circumvent what the voters decided. They would need the financial means and wouldn’t get a penny from the city. They might do it with county money because Section 79 doesn’t apply."
psyche777 then quoted from Section 79, which says:
"Section 79. Compulsory referendum of certain measures - franchises.
No ordinance or resolution for a public improvement requiring or authorizing the expenditure of more than fifteen percent (15%) of the average gross annual current operating expenditures by the City for the five (5) fiscal years immediately preceding, or for the granting of a general public utility franchise, shall be effective until the same shall be approved by a majority vote of the electors voting thereon; provided, however, no convention center, exhibit hall, sports arena, or municipal theater, other than a sports arena located in the City's Marina District, being the area bounded by the Maumee River, Interstate Highway 280, Front Street and Main Street, shall be constructed, acquired, or leased unless the ordinance or resolution authorizing construction bidding, acquisition, or leasing shall have been approved by a majority vote of the electors voting thereon, whether or not such ordinance or resolution requires or authorizes the expenditure of more or less than fifteen percent (15%) of the average gross annual current operating expenditures by the City for the five (5) fiscal years immediately preceding. A general public utility is one in which all the people of the City may have an interest.
(Amended by electors 9-11-01)"
Maybe someone can translate the above Section 79 gibberish into plain English. Or is it open to interpretion depending upon one's views about where the arena should be located? Again, this only concerns using city money to help build the arena. If private money is used, then this Section 79 is not being violated.
RolandHansen said on Sep 17, 2005:
"The Convention Center was built through the County of Lucas NOT the City of Toledo. Technically, Lucas County government is not constrained nor restrained by the Charter of the City of Toledo. Even though the population of Toledo constitutes approximately 75% of the population of Lucas County, the Board of Commissioners of Lucas County with Sandy Isenberg as its president decided the heck with the will of the people and went ahead with the convention center."
posted by jr at 10:43 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Well madjack, it's ok for you to disagree, but you have some serious anger problems. It's just an idea that would build up the economy of the region. Indeed, it would do wonders for the region. Indianapolis did it and has succeeded, Lexington Kentucky did it and has succeeded, and Columbus annexed almost all of Franklin county and has succeeded (although C-bus is not a county government and suburbs still exist). All of these cities have growing, successful economies. Toledo does not have a growing, successful economy, nor does Lucas County. But hey, if you would rather live in Sylvania than provide a future for the region, then you're no better for the region than the legions of politicians that have done nothing here for years. You people complain about how much the economy sucks here, so let's do something about it and stop playing these old games. Sure, let's just dismiss all ideas and call them propaganda. Do you know what propaganda is?
posted by junta330 at 10:54 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
deer1, you state:
There are many people that won't go downtown for anything. Manym of us stopped going to the Mud Hens when they moved downtown
Here are some interesting stats from a Blade artice in July 2005:
A total of 1,876,617 fans came to Fifth Third Field in those first 250 games. In the last 250 games at Skeldon Stadium, the Hen's previous home, the total attendance was 1,126,590. What's more, the three largest single-season attendance figures in Toledo's pro baseball history are the three full seasons the Hens have played at their current downtown home; in each of those first three seasons the Hens exceeded 500,000 in total attendance.
"Based on the community's size, we should draw [400,000] to 450,000 on an annual basis, " Napoli said. "The community's acceptance and enthusiastic support of a downtown Toledo ballpark has been exceptional."
posted by KraZyKat at 11:11 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Unigov is county-wide government. Regionalism involves several counties like junta330 is talking about.
The reason why Wood County is booming is because it's not Lucas County and because Toledo is not in Wood County. Maybe Toledo needs Wood County, but I don't think Wood County needs Toledo.
People have fled Toledo for other communities because they wanted to escape Toledo's public schools, they wanted better public services for their tax dollars, less traffic, less crime, more land, etc.
Let Toledo fix its own problems first before it decides to acquire other communities. Why has Maumee's Arrowhead Park been so successful? Toledo want's unigov because it wants Arrowhead Park. Some or many of the businesses in Arrowhead moved there from Toledo. Why is that? Why did OI move to Perrysburg's Levis Commons?
If acquiring other communities is the answer to solving Toledo's woes, why would other communities go along with it? What's in it for these other communities?
Toledo City Council ramming a strict smoking ban down the throats of Toledoans in the summer of 2003 is not the kind of ruling behaviour other communities want to be under.
Carty's and the County's massive interference with the Westgate redevelopment is another example of why people in Wood County are glad they don't live in Lucas County.
Toledo is it's own worse enemy. Not Perrysburg, not Sylvania, not Waterville.
posted by jr at 11:18 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Thank you jr for the first reasonable counterargument to uni-gov/regionalism. You might be right that other communities would not benefit as much as Toledo from such a government. However, some of the points you make are exactly why I support regionalism. As I noted earlier, I think it is necessary to keep the school districts the same. You mention that Toledo wants to acquire surrounding areas because of great successes like Arrowhead Park, and OI's motives for moving to Perrysburg. I agree, Toledo wants to acquire these successful areas for its benefit. You also mention Toledo City Council "ramming a strict smoking ban down the throats of Toledoans" and criticize the way Toledo politicians govern. I think regionalism would get smarter people in positions of power to eliminate the kind of governance you are talking about. And I also agree, Toledo is its own worst enemy.
By moving to regionalism, the area would improve human capital and financial capital. I view municipalities as large corporations. Each citizen is an investor/shareholder, and the politicians are the board of directors. By moving to regionalism, we gain in shareholders and in capital and then can invest in a better, more attractive region. We would acquire better human capital to run the government. I also think that in the long-run, these other communities would benefit from the overall economic impact, much moreso than people realize. More jobs and wealth would be created for everyone. Everyone's property value would improve. The healthier the region, the better off everyone will be.
posted by junta330 at 12:05 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
"I think regionalism would get smarter people in positions of power to eliminate the kind of governance you are talking about."
I disagree. Two of the three Lucas County Commissioners are from Toledo City Council. The Lucas County Treasurer is from Toledo City Council. Another Toledo City Councilmen, Phil Copeland, plans to run for Lucas County Commissioner. George Sarantou, another Toledo City Councilmen, is thinking about running for Lucas County Commissioner. Toledo City Council is already running a good bit of Lucas County government.
People from other communities in Lucas County won't have a chance in unigov because of Toledo's population size. Toledo will dominate in a county-wide government. Barlos-Gerken in the 2004 Lucas County Commissioner election is a good example of this. Regionalism in theory may give other communities a chance, but I doubt it because they will split the vote and the Toledo pol will easily win.
I believe people in other communities don't trust Toledo politicians and other public officials. Oregon and Toledo struggled in the negotations of the new coking plant because TPS wanted more money because they're bigger.
And no way will other communities agree to helping TPS get out of its 4/23 scoring when Sylvania, Perrysburg, and Ottawa Hills residents are already spending a ton of money on their schools and getting near perfect scores on the standards tests.
According to a Blade article, the salary for a teacher with a Bachelors degree is higher for TPS than Ottawa Hills.
posted by jr at 12:33 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Again, very fair criticisms jr. But you are operating under the assumption that Toledoas will always vote for Toledoans. If that assumption is correct, then you're probably right. But I think Toledoans may be more open to suburban leadership than you think. As to your comment about Ottawa Hills v. Toledo teacher pay, almost every Ottawa Hills teacher has a masters degree. That article also notes that teachers from OH with masters get paid more than TPS teachers with masters. I'm actually from Ottawa Hills. Further, as I noted before, I don't want either a uni-gov or regional school system. Within uni-gov, or regionalism, you can still have districts.
posted by junta330 at 01:06 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
You know junta is starting to sound a lot like limedrops. I wonder if there may be a connection here?
posted by madjack at 01:20 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Ottawa Hills teachers don't face as difficult a situation in the classroom with unmotivated students as do those in TPS. I believe it is harder to recruit for TPS, especially in the high schools. I knew an inner city first grade teacher (now retired) who chose to teach in an area she wouldn't drive through at night. She said the challenges were huge, but the rewards even greater.
On the matter of "Toledo County" Commissioners will this issue give Tim Wagener a good campaign platform?
posted by holland at 01:26 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Forgive me madjack, but what I surmise is an insult to me is a bit above my head. You see, I'm relatively new to this site and don't know the personalities/ideologies of all the posters. If you could explain it to me then maybe I can come up with something to bring back at you. But for now I will stand by my contention that you need anger management. I will also guess that your really really short and you emulate Napoleon in every way. Holland, I agree with your sentiments about TPS teachers 100%.
posted by junta330 at 01:41 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
"But I think Toledoans may be more open to suburban leadership than you think."
Well, we shall see soon enough now that Maumee Mayor Tim Wagener has announced he's running for Lucas County Commissioner.
So the lineup so far for Lucas County Commissioner is:
Maggie Thurber: current Lucas County Commissioner, has not officially announced running for re-election, is from Toledo but not from Toledo City Council.
Ben Konop: Is from Toledo but not from Toledo City Council.
Phil Copeland: Currently on Toledo City Council.
George Sarantou: Has not officially announced running for Lucas County Commissioner, but he made remarks last month he was thinking about it. He is currently on Toledo City Council.
Tim Wagener: Currently mayor of Maumee.
So three official candidates with two in the on-deck circle. Of the five, only one is not from Toledo. 80% of the above are from Toledo, which sort of jives with the population of Lucas County, since 75% of the county's population is in Toledo. Currently, 100% of the commissioners are from Toledo.
So we'll see what Toledo and non-Toledo voters do in the May primary. We'll also see if the rest of Lucas County takes an interest in this and turns out to vote in greater numbers than normal to counter the Toledo vote in the May primary. What's the voter turnout for a May primary, 10%?
posted by jr at 05:29 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
I have to go with Konop. He's probably the best educated of them all and really works hard to understand the issues and offer solutions. He also was the most successful Democrat ever to run against Mike Oxley. That means Konop knows people up high that can get things done. I think his national connections would be good for Lucas County (if you can't tell I know him pretty well, so I'm slightly biased). My one criticism would be that he is a lot more liberal than I am, and I don't know his feelings uni-gov.
posted by junta330 at 05:45 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
If the new arena is downtown, wouldn't it cause traffic jams conflicting with the Fifth Third traffic? Although, it's probably safe to assume that the odds of an event at the arena being held the same day/night as a Mud Hens game is slim, I wonder though. I think one of the best reasons to have in it's existing location is simply that the traffic jams won't be so bad. And not everybody wants to drive or be in the heart of downtown, ever. Not my favorite place to be, drive or park. Where exactly would it be if they put it downtown? On another note: what are the plans for the OI building? And that steamplant plan, what's going on with that, and what exactly are they planning to do with it? Sorry if I am ignorant on some of this stuff.
posted by starling02 at 08:12 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
"... wouldn't it cause traffic jams conflicting with the Fifth Third traffic?"
Let's hope so. Strange as it sounds, but that's the idea. Traffic jams, noise, people, sounds like a vibrant downtown to me. What a great "problem" to have. No more of that "Toledo closes at 5:00 p.m." stuff.
The Hens regular season is from early April to the end of August. So five months. The Hens play what, 130 games maybe? So for argument's sake, let's say the Hens play 70 home games. 70 days across five months or 150 days.
A new arena would be used at the absolute freakish most of 150 days per year and most likely around 120-130 days. Let's go with the 150 spread across 365 days.
Home Hens games on Sundays are played in the afternoon. Plus the Hens play some early morning home games for the kids.
But still, some overlap will occur from April through August, but when was the last time Toledo had the ability to complain about too many people spending time in downtown Toledo?
I don't think it's hard to get to downtown Toledo at all. On any old evening, it takes me about 10 minutes go from my home in West Toledo near Douglas and Sylvania to the Warehouse District or The Docks. It's probably easier and quicker for me to go downtown than to navigate the Westgate to Westfield Mall mess.
Okay, so what are the problems with going to downtown Toledo?
* Is it the confusing one-way and two-way streets?
* Is it the jackass drivers who know what they are doing and ride your ass while you make sure you don't turn against a one-way street?
* Is it finding a place to park that is close to where you want to go?
* Is it having to walk too far to wherever you want to go after finding a parking place?
* Is it a lack of signage or directions?
* Is it having to pay for parking while everywhere else around here is free?
* Is it safety concerns?
* What?
posted by jr at 09:06 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
It isn't hard for me to get downtown, doesn't take long, but you hit it on the head jr, all of the above. Why does a vibrant downtown have to have everything (arena and fifth third field) all in the center of it? Why not spread that vibrancy around a bit, downtown and the marina district?
posted by starling02 at 02:35 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
The Marina District and the surrounding area on the east side will become more vibrant over the next 5 to 10 years as the project advances. How many years has it taken for the Warehouse District to be where it is today? At least 10 years.
You can spread it out when one spot runs out of room. I don't know about others, but I don't like driving to one spot, then driving to another, and then driving to a third, and so on. It's nice to park once, visit the different businesses in the area via walking, and then drive home. That's why I like the Warehouse District so much.
posted by jr at 09:57 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
It was mentioned at tonights meeting at the Family Center that if the Arena were to be built downtown, that they should tear down Seagate Center and build it there since it loses money anyway. Did ya see me on Fox News?:)
posted by SherryET at 10:15 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Sherry,
I missed Fox news, but I am recording the rerun at 3a.m.
posted by lloyd at 11:21 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
That's actually a pretty good idea. Seagate essentially serves the same purpose as the downtown version of an arena, and it loses money. Plus you wouldn't have to worry about destroying "historical buildings." Seagate would suffer severely from a downtown arena, and seagate is too small to compete. Plus it provides a campus that already exists without disturbing traffic. I like it, but I doubt the local government has even considered it.
posted by junta330 at 02:11 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
THey would tear down Seagate?? What a waste of concrete and glass that seems.
posted by starling02 at 04:02 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Seems like a huge amount of fussing and fighting over what in reality is what? about 2 or 3 hundred yards? :-)
posted by JeepMaker at 10:32 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
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