I have been in the same situation Billy. I have had the very same feelings as your relative as well.
What he also sees are the ones who are so vehemently demanding to unionize are the slackers. The ones who call in sick all the time, the ones who are unwilling to go the extra mile and do the things that can move them up the ladder. Basically, the ones who wont do what my relative has done, and therefore have not gotten what he has.
Exactly. My wife has heard these very same words come out of my mouth. These are the types who resent anyone succesful, and don't want to understand that success is often related to work ethic and education. They want to make the same money as management, but have that clock puncher mentality. Not to mention you just want to ask some of these people: What the hell were you doing in your twenties? You have no resume. You are lucky to even have a decent job.
The idea of comparing a Toledo salary to salaries in places like Boston and San Diego is a weak argument I have heard before- very weak. If you are so underpaid, then get another job. Oh wait you can't because you have no skills and no one will ever refer you.
posted by nick44 at 10:48 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
I was in the same position several years ago. The best thing I can tell you is that management can change in a real hurry. Your benefits and great pay can disappear with the stroke of a pen.
I found out the hard way that by the time you realize you need a union it's probably allready too late.
If the management of your company treats its workers as well as you say, they don't need to be afraid of what a union will do.
posted by schumacker at 06:47 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
"If the management of your company treats its workers as well as you say, they don't need to be afraid of what a union will do."
if management treats its workers well, why the HELL would they even need a union????
Like my cousin says - its just the slackers who are whining, and admit it or not, a union wont stop born whiners from whining.
posted by billy at 07:30 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
I don't think it's 'slackers'...I tend to think it's more of the fact that everyone today is running scared & worried about losing their jobs/benefits/having hours cut, etc. Of course, in todays 'global' crap, a union won't necessarily prevent any of that from happening, (unless it's a government union), but it makes people FEEL more secure today. And I'm personally sick and tired of hearing union-bashing on these threads. Guest Zero has it right-in todays america, you're somehow seen as 'unclean' if you're not white-collar. There are white-collar unions too-not all union people are knuckle-dragging neanderthals. In fact-it's your government unions (primarily white-collar & 'educated') where you'll find the BIGGEST slackers. But there are pros & cons on everything.
posted by Foolkiller at 11:47 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 21, 2006 #
Even government unions are having trouble right now. The FAA is in negotiations with NATCA (the air traffic controllers union) and are proposing a 30% pay cut, split shifts, and a reduction in workforce. The problem is if we go to impasse, the FAA sends their last offer to Congress. If Congress doesn't do anything with the proposal for 60 days, the FAA can unilaterally impose it onto the workforce. So the FAA really has no motivation to even attempt good faith bargaining.
Fortunately, a bill was introduced in the House and Senate that would require the FAA to go to binding arbitration if Congress does not act.
You can find more info at http://www.fairfaa.com/
NATCA is the second union that I've been involved with. The first was the UA. A majority of my family (including my father) are union plumbers, pipefitters, and welders. I even turned wrenches for a while.
Truth of the matter is that both blue and white collar unions have their slackers, but they both have people who work really hard and enjoy what they are doing.
posted by micah at 01:56 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
"in todays america, you're somehow seen as 'unclean' if you're not white-collar."
I dont know what circles you run in, but in this town I do not think that statement comes near to being true.
In my original post I said that my cousin had raised his pay over 20% in the three years he's been there. What I didnt say is that about 1/3 of that monetary increase came in the form of merit raises - raises for hard work.
Unions come in, set quotas, and then hassle any worker who might want to go above and beyond and produce over quota. It happened to my father right here in town.
posted by billy at 07:42 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
I'm with you, Billy. There's no need for a union at your cousin's company.
posted by madjack at 08:31 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
Hard to say, it can go two ways. They may treat their employees good. Then again they may treat them like scum down the road.
Honda of Ohio are not unionized, but in my opinion, they do reap the benefits of the union. To explain, Honda management knows if they screw those workers over, the UAW is waiting in the wings, therefore it's to Honda's benefit to treat their people good.
As for billy's relative, hard to say without knowing what rate he started at and what type work we're talking about. I mean if he's now making 20% above minimum, his pay still sucks.
Foolkiller has a point, I've seen it for 29 years that I've been a UAW member, people tend to "paint with a wide brush". All union workers are lazy, dopers, drunks, etc.
I've been building Jeeps for 29 years, I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, and no matter what, I ALWAYS perform my job to the best of my ability. I always figured I owed it to the customer.
I've earned every damn penny I've made. I've seen new hires when I was at the old plant that couldn't last a DAY. I worked countless summer days when you'd litterally sweat off 6 or 7 pounds in a shift!
And most frightening, I've seen more friends then I wish to count, die young from this cancer or that.
posted by JeepMaker at 12:04 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
"Honda of Ohio are not unionized, but in my opinion, they do reap the benefits of the union. To explain, Honda management knows if they screw those workers over, the UAW is waiting in the wings, therefore it's to Honda's benefit to treat their people good."
So then Honda has no need for a union. If they already treat their employees good then all unionizing would do is cost the employees X bucks a week out of their pay.
What Im saying is this is the same with my cousin's plant. Mgmt treats them well - as far as pay, if my cousin is satisfied with what he makes then who is the union to come in and take a satisfied worker and make him un-satisfied. He personally negotiated his wage with management and he's good with it - what more needs to be done?
So as long as mgmt treats them well, then there's no need for the union, because its obvious to mgmt now that as JMaker says, the union is always out there in the wings.
I dont understand the part about losing friends to this cancer or that, or how it relates to being union or not so I cant comment on it other than to say I just was at a funeral for a different cousin on Saturday - cancer as well, so I can empathasize with your loss.
posted by billy at 12:33 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
This can't be much of a difficult decision, to wit:
1. Does your relative have good relations with several levels of the company? If so, then -1 to the Unionize score.
2. Is he adequately* compensated? If so, then another -1.
3. Are his co-workers treated as well as he is? If so, -1.
Etc. If the negatives add up, then don't support unionization.
Unions are an excellent punishment for complete arsehole employers. With employers who actually seem to like the company employees, unionization can be a tremendous slap in the face.
* Unfortunately, "adequately" is vastly overrated or underrated depending on which highly-biased population sector you ask.
posted by GuestZero at 04:13 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
Unions are an excellent punishment for complete arsehole employers.
Coming from the management perspective, I am always balancing salaries, benefits and working conditions against people leaving and going to work for my competitors - that is typically my punishment. There really isn't any other punishment needed because I won't last long if I don't provide enough to keep good people.
posted by babbleman at 04:33 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 22, 2006 #
Babs, I've watched business abortions lurch into continued and perverse life in Toledo for reasons which defy all logic. I do not agree that there's some invisible hand which puts these places out of business for their amazing ineptitude and/or viciousness. If anything, they thrive in the sickly soil of Toledo's workers' desperation and despondency. Literally, too many of the workers in Toledo are in a financial and emotional depression, under which all manner of business misbehaviors can (and do) occur.
A shop-keeper of my previous acquantance had noticed this kind of "thing" with Toledo. He noted specifically (and with some disgust) the sheer number of businesses in Toledo that operated primarily and practically as personal hobbies, not as actual for-profit businesses. I agree with this observation.
posted by GuestZero at 06:11 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 23, 2006 #
Just as a side note, I can tell you about my brother's experience with a labor union.
Lee is not pro-union, but when he held a job with the county his department joined the UAW - or maybe it was AFSME. Anyway, Lee got the word that the department head, AKA Stupid, was going to fire him during his next job review. Lee, of course, updated his resume and started the job search.
Meantime the union, without being asked, sent along two representatives to accompany Lee during his job review. These two were leg breakers. One was built like a fire plug only not as pretty, and the other was The Refrigerators' big brother, Meat Grinder. The review lasted five minutes, during which time Stupid stammered, sweated and finally said Lee was doing a good job, here was his raise and keep up the good work. All three left the office, with profuse thanks from Lee to the two union reps.
Lee has been pretty much pro-union ever since.
posted by madjack at 02:34 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 23, 2006 #
Good story madjack. You should hear some of the stories my dad tells regarding his experiences with both unions and the mob when he started in (his own) business in Toledo in the 50's. I think both were at their peak at that time. He stood up to both and survived. His employees always said no to the union too.
GZ, you could be right. I wouldn't know because I don't hire desperate and despondent people. I only hire people who are smiling and eager to work hard - and in return I treat them well so that they'll stay with me.
posted by babbleman at 08:49 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 23, 2006 #
Syndicate ToledoTalk
