I don't think tech is the way of the future for Toledo. I think we should invest in transportation. Tech can be exported, but there will always be a need for transport (freight). I think Toledo should try to encourage big transport companies to the area. It would suit the area, and our economy would benefit greatly in the long-run. Transport is consistent. That's what our local leadership should be working on. I just don't see a bubble tech market working here.
posted by junta330 at 01:17 A.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
I think an incubator type program would be one that could work for this area, we also do have alot of people who have experience and talent when it comes to technology.
The downside to freight operations is they are not typically full time jobs. Take UPS or Bax or Fed Ex as an example, the pay is high hourly but it takes years most times to get a full time job there.
posted by psyche777 at 08:47 A.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
I think we can find a niche with the production of Ethanol. We have ties to the auto industry. We have local farmers. We have the Universities that can support research and development. We have The Andersons, who may play a part.
It is worth some consideration.
posted by jdmsbyrd at 09:58 A.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Ethanol - well that's a very good point. If anyone can develop a lower cost fuel option that could be run in the cars we already own - wow. That'd be huge.
My Dad told me that one problem with alternative fuels is that they may burn quite alot hotter and most of our cars have aluminum blocks that won't take the higher heat.
Question - just living here for the last five years - I don't know this history. But was there not more business downtown at the port and the airport seems to be losing business. I heard a reference to a 'hub' that pulled out of there recently too. Isn't there a port authority of some kind? And if so - wouldn't it be their job to attract business, and thereby work, for the port and airport?
posted by katie82640 at 10:02 A.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
I agree there are other areas besides technology that could be attracted or developed here. However, the type of jobs that Youngstown is attracting are non-manufacturing/non factory ones and we do have a talented work force that would be appropriate. As an example, a high number of my former Convergys co-workers had experience and degrees in technology related fields.
With the Third Frontier fund situation, it would be nice to find out if Lucas County was included and if so if there is a possibility to get funds to create or enhance a similar incubator type scenario here. I'm not proposing "placing all of our eggs in one basket" and only concentrate on tech jobs, but the Cleveland Plain Dealer article raised some interesting points I thought were worth sharing and discussing.
posted by psyche777 at 10:47 A.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
As far as the Ethanol plant:
http://agcrops.osu.edu/corn/EthanolPlants.php
Plans for NW Ohio and mentions other plants planned for other parts of Ohio.
posted by psyche777 at 10:54 A.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
http://www.toledoportauthority.org/default_f.asp
Katie, the link to the Toledo Port Authority. They have information there that might answer some of your quesitons.
posted by psyche777 at 10:56 A.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Newer cars, Katie, are equipped to hadle the 85/15 blend of ethanol and gasoline.
You are correct about older cars, though. I would avoid putting fuels with higher concentrations of ethanol in cars with aluminum blocks, especially small 4-cylinder imports like the Honda Civic.
posted by historymike at 12:18 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Ethanol is a government handout to ADM and the farmers, people.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html
I'm not that hot on the conservative/libertarian Cato Institute, but their section on ethanol in that report is right on the money.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/bg1603.cfm
And there is the CONSERVATIVE Heritage Foundation weighing in on ethanol.
Somehow I don't agree with handing ADM and others a billion dollars a year to run stills. In much the same way I don't agree with handing ExxonMobil, Royal Dutch Shell, ChevronTexaco, and others several billion in incentives and tax breaks.
How about we build a new refinery or two somewhere around here instead? Oh wait, then the oil and refinery companies would have to come up with a new excuse for gas prices being so high.
I say we concentrate on solar, wind, and fuel cell research around here.
posted by anonymouscoward at 03:21 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Im the logistics business, and Junta's right on the money as far as this area investing in transportation. Ohio currently has 100 trucks of product going out of the state than it does coming in - For anyone with a reliable truck and a valid lisence these day, if you arent makin big bucks, you need to hang it up.
I do think that we can also get into technology. Akron and now Youngstown are both shining examples of blue collar/union towns who had both been devistated by lack of manufacturing jobs who've analysed the future and made proactive steps to become part of it - to say Toledo cant or shouldnt do this is wrong. Toledo NEEDS to do this.
Transportation will always be necessary, but, with technology these days, the headquarters can be located anywhere. I handle the transportation needs from my company's west coast operations from right here in Toledo.
posted by billy at 03:40 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Im in the logistics business, and Junta's right on the money as far as this area investing in transportation. Each day,Ohio currently has 100 trucks of product going out of the state than it does coming in -
... sometimes I need to preview a little better, sorry folks..
posted by billy at 03:44 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Michigan is planning to build five new ethanol plants.
To hell with wind power. It's a waste of space, an eyesore, and an environmental hazard to migrating birds along the Lake Erie shoreline. I know the Black Swamp Bird Observatory is opposed to a wind farm planned along the Lake Erie shoreline, which will no doubt be constructed because people are suckers.
The politicians will do wind farms as a token measure of concern for alternative energy sources even though they know it amounts to nothing. New high-tech power plants operated by coal would do much more. Wind farms are like prisons. People want them but not in their backyard.
As to the incubator concept in Toledo, here's a 2004 Toledo Talk posting titled "Toledo loses business incubator."
"The loss of a state technology grant of $185,000 last year caused a six-month hiccup in services to the incubated companies. And it spelled the demise of the nonprofit incubation agency, the Center for Technology Commercialization, that had brought entrepreneurs to the downtown. The Toledo area suffered a loss of more than $1.2 million in Edison technology grants last year from the Ohio Department of Development's technology division, while grants for most of the other regions in the state increased."
"The Center for Technology Commercialization helped fledgling businesses manage rent, provided common fax and copy machines, and provided business services such as arranging visits with possible investors."
" "I think the real issue was in general a lack of support for what the CTC was doing and a lack of attention to development of technology-driven businesses on the part of almost everyone that should have supported it," said Donald Monroe, Jr., a member of the board of the CTC."
"Brian Friedman, who purchased the 14th Street building in 2000 and moved from Miami, Fla., to manage it, blames the Regional Growth Partnership and the city for letting the CTC fail."
"In keeping with the eclectic nature of the Uptown neighborhood, the four-story building's occupants came to include an eclectic mix of entrepreneurs designing optical devices, weather systems, energy-efficient cooling, and packaging systems."
From a Blade op-ed about the 2004 closing of the CTC:
"THE demise of downtown Toledo's "incubator" for fledgling technology businesses is another indication that the Regional Growth Partnership still lacks an updated and unified economic development plan for northwest Ohio."
"While the Center for Technology Commercialization had particular administrative problems that led to its closing, the RGP apparently failed to present a sufficiently integrated approach to state officials on assistance for high-tech entrepreneurs."
"The result of this fractured effort: the loss of some $1.2 million in state technology grants for the area compared to last year, while more state money went to every other regional program in the state except Cleveland."
I'm not sure, but it sounds like Toledo tried the tech incubator thing once, and it failed. Maybe someone should ask the RGP and any city leftovers from 2004 WTF happened.
Kudos to Youngstown for making it work. Another example of why the torch for the armpit of Ohio has been passed from Youngstown to Toledo. Congrats to all current and former Toledo government officials for such magnificent failures.
posted by jr at 07:05 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Thanks jr, I wasn't as aware locally of what was going on in 2004 so I didn't know we had tried the incubator concept here. However, just because it failed once doesn't mean it couldn't work again.
You are right though that it would be interesting to see if anyone involved from then has some insight as to what went wrong and is it possible.
posted by psyche777 at 07:31 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
If you believe in evolution, then the birds will eventually get smart enough to avoid the wind turbines.
Of course, jr, if you're okay with a billion bucks or more of government money funding what amounts to a still, then whatever. I'm sure what they mean by "ethanol research" doesn't mean "five-martini lunch for the company executives".
posted by anonymouscoward at 08:27 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Well, if we're on the evolution topic, why should we care whether or not humans are affecting global warming? The environment will adapt eventually, right? Polar bears will simply learn to like the desert. They'll be waltzing down the Vegas strip. And if they don't or if they can't hack it, oh well. So implies AC.
With grain alcohol, you can pour yourself a drink while filling your car. Everybody wins. I saw that on The Simpsons.
BTW AC, birds still haven't evolved to the point of avoiding buildings, towers, and bridges that have lights on. No worry. It only takes a few hundred or maybe a few thousand years for evolution to kick in. But how long does it take to erect one of those stupid, worthless propellers?
posted by jr at 08:56 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Oh, I did mention coal not corn. The U.S. is the Saudi Arabia of coal. Why not use coal combined with high technology?
January 26, 2006 Blade story:
"Ohio is one of 20 states courting the U.S. Department of Energy for the right to build what could become America's first coal-fired power plant of the future. The $1 billion "FutureGen" project would infuse southern or eastern Ohio with a lot of new money, as well as jobs."
"But the biggest selling point - and the one that has attracted the support of the Ohio Environmental Council - is that it wouldn't pollute."
"Coal would be turned into highly enriched hydrogen gas, which can then be burned more cleanly than coal itself. Carbon dioxide, a source of global warming, would be compressed into liquid and injected underground."
"Supporters say the state that lands the project could become the nation's leader for a new type of energy that helps relieve America of its growing dependence on foreign oil and natural gas."
"Coal is a plentiful energy-producing fossil fuel. The government estimates that the United States has enough coal for hundreds of years, more than any nation except Russia."
February 10, 2006 Blade op-ed about Ohio being the site for the FutureGen project:
"WHERE'S the best place in the country to build America's first air-pollution-free coal-fired power plant? We think it's right here in the heart of it all: Ohio."
"Although at least 20 other states also are vying for the 275-megawatt, experimental plant, it makes sense to construct it here. The state's coal reserves, geology, and its ongoing coal research and development are persuasive reasons."
"Officials at every level of government are working to shed Ohio's image as primarily an agricultural and manufacturing state. This plant's advanced technology would fit right in with the state's efforts to remake itself as the home of cutting-edge technology."
posted by jr at 09:13 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Ok - nobody load up their Katie guns. K?
These are just questions:
Archer Daniels Midland Company (ADM)is AC's reference?
Cato Institute is a Libertarian institution?
Heritage.org is a conservative site?
And who knew Toledo had a think tank/recent past?
1.2m in lost grants? what the (well you know) indeed!
posted by katie82640 at 09:17 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Oh yeah - one last thing. I am old enough to remember the last round of ethanol. It was dirty and it burnt the proverbial *&%t out of engines.
I bought mine in Adrian, Michigan during the last gas crisis. At a Shell station. It killed a find old Dart. She died on the side of the road....
posted by katie82640 at 09:18 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
BTW AC, birds still haven't evolved to the point of avoiding buildings, towers, and bridges that have lights on. No worry. It only takes a few hundred or maybe a few thousand years for evolution to kick in. But how long does it take to erect one of those stupid, worthless propellers?
OMG WE NEED TO NOT BUILD BRIDGES AND SKYSCRAPERS AND STUFF, THINK OF THE POOR BIRDIES!!!!
Since when did you become the namby-pamby-NIMBY treehugger PETA environmentalist, jr?
posted by anonymouscoward at 09:26 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Since when? Exactly 57 1/2 minutes ago.
Right, AC. Way to leap to massive hyperbole. Buildings and bridges serve a purpose. Wind turbines don't.
posted by jr at 09:44 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
http://www.battelle.org/Environment/publications/EnvUpdates/Summer2000/article8.html
http://www.odod.state.oh.us/tech/edison/tiedincu.htm
http://www.ictto.ohiou.edu/
Some interesting links if anyone is interested in the technology aspect. The first one is from 2000 but has some information on Environmental technology. The other two both have some interesting information as well.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 10:05 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
I guess Bowling Green threw their money away then, eh jr?
posted by anonymouscoward at 11:29 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Fine, jr, screw over Owens Corning:
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060301/BUSINESS03/603010484/-1/BUSINESS
posted by anonymouscoward at 11:35 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
I like the idea of wind turbines, but I offer another idea as opposed to the coast of lake erie. There are a few empty islands on the lake in ohio waters. We could tear down the trees and put up a ton of wind turbines and solar panels. I don't understand the opposition to wind turbines. Aside from government funding, perhaps you could explain a bit more JR. What if a private company did this?
posted by junta330 at 11:41 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
Hell yeah Owens Corning. I might invest. Their stock is cheap right now anyway.
posted by junta330 at 11:42 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 27, 2006 #
junta - some of the main opposition to wind turbines is the migratory pattern of birds through the Great Lakes area, the building of "energy farms" on prime waterfront property, ODNR/OEPA regulations and (very minorly) aesthetics.
The ODNR's Office of Coastal Management participates in a "wind working group" which includes various local, state and federal agencies and groups (environmental/commercial/business) interested in this issue - they're trying to develop some guidelines for such initiatives.
Perhaps this website can help:
http://pickocc.org/c-energy/wind.shtml
posted by MaggieThurber at 07:00 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
To hell with wind power. It's a waste of space, an eyesore, and an environmental hazard to migrating birds along the Lake Erie shoreline.
Oh come on. The ecological footprint of a wind turbine is probably the smallest of all the electricity generating technologies we have at our disposal right now. Statistically, wind turbines kill less birds than cell towers. In all probablility, an Ethanol plant's burn off stack would kill significantly more birds than a wind turbine on the lakeshore.
Here's an idea: Put the wind turbines on the Envirosafe and Gradle landfills already occupying land in Oregon. Or as junta suggested, put them on the sludge islands out in the bay. Both of those locations have zero land value because neither can be built on. But a wind turbine doesn't require much land, those are excellent locations and any birds dumb enough to fly into manmade objects will be taken out first by the BP plant's towers.
posted by thenick at 08:14 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
The fan's footprint for a wind turbine is a considerably smaller risk to birds than transformers. Not just the big stations - but the lines also have equipment in them to boost the flow along. Birds have obviously adapted to that. You see them sitting on the lines and the tops of the poles. Not the equipment that can zap them.
posted by katie82640 at 09:10 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
Maybe it is ethanol, maybe it is wind I do not think it matters. Look at all of the information we have already uncovered in just this forum.
We can be a city on the forefront of alternative energy. We can incubate ideas and turn them into progress. Never let naysayers and negative statistics get in the way of a good idea.
Big corporations have evolved over time, as all of us do. Progress is a process and you have to start somewhere. Sitiing around and wondering what is next is much different than planning for the future.
posted by jdmsbyrd at 11:05 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
Hopefully someone from our area will be attending this:
http://www.ictto.ohiou.edu/about/index.php?page=3&item=52
posted by psyche777 at 11:09 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
"There are a few empty islands on the lake in ohio waters. We could tear down the trees and put up a ton of wind turbines and solar panels."
junta330, you're clearly not as smart as you think you are. I assume you were joking. You can't be that stupid.
The islands are used by migrating birds as resting stops as they cross the lake. They need the trees and the bushes. West Sister island is a major heron rookery. Again, the birds need the trees.
Plus, wealthy people own expensive homes on some of the other islands, and I don't think they'd appreciate you cutting down the trees and putting up a wind turbine in their backyard. They might support a turbine in your backyard on the mainland but not in the yard of their summer home on an island.
"Statistically, wind turbines kill less birds than cell towers."
So what? Just because it kills less that makes it okay? Did you attend a George Sarantou seminar on how to explain away things?
Wind turbines kill fewer birds than buildings, radio towers, bridges, and vehicles. Vehicles kill millions of birds per year. But how many people are served by cell towers, cars, buildings, bridges, and coal-fired power plants? Could you or society live without cell phones? Would you be okay without electricity produced by wind turbines? How many people do you know that power their home with electricity produced by a wind turbine? How many people do you know own a cell phone or drive a vehicle? I hate seeing these eyesore cell towers popping up across the landscape, but unfortunately millions of people use them.
Wind turbines serve only a few people and have no purpose except to snooker the public into thinking the government is doing something about finding alternative forms of energy, and apparently a lot of you are gullible enough to buy into this scam. Environmentalists want wind turbines and environmentalists are opposing wind turbines.
Private investment into wind turbines has nothing to do with this because the turbines are still above ground, right? Birds have enough man-made obstacles to overcome, so why put up another hazard that produces very little in return?
"Birds have obviously adapted to that."
You're talking about perching. What about flight? Birds, especially raptors, still collide with transmission lines. A raptor soaring, hovering, or kiting high above the wires will spot prey on or near the ground and go into a dive. The bird's sight is only focused on dinner, and the bird does not see the wire in its path.
And katie82640, you're not entirely correct about your assertion that birds have adapted to perching on power lines.
Keep in mind the food chain. Fewer raptors exist than songbirds. Raptors are the group of birds more likely to be killed by execution and by collisions with wind turbines. In the spring in our area, raptors migrate west along the Lake Erie shoreline. The southwestern Lake Erie shoreline in the late winter and spring is also home to thousands of temporary ducks. The southwestern Lake Erie shoreline is a major bird migration area for many types of birds that move both at night and in the daytime.
"The ecological footprint of a wind turbine is probably the smallest of all the electricity generating technologies we have at our disposal right now."
"The fan's footprint for a wind turbine is a considerably smaller risk to birds than transformers."
Ah, yes footprints. People who support oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge bring up footprints. Today's drilling technology uses a smaller footprint, and this supposedly means it wouldn't be a problem for the environment when drilling in ANWR. That's the argument, correct?
I own several books by birder, artist, and author David Sibley. He opposes drilling in ANWR, so you have some idea where he's coming from. On his website about bird mortality:
For you katie82640:
"Electrocutions kill tens of thousands of birds per year. This occurs mainly when large birds such as raptors make contact between a live electrical wire and a ground such as a pole. The relatively small number of birds affected belies the significance of this threat, since species such as Golden Eagle are more susceptible. Large predators like eagles have smaller population sizes and lower reproduction rates than songbirds, so removing a few thousand birds from the population will have a much larger impact than removing the same number of, say, Savannah Sparrows."
"Wind turbines may kill 33,000 birds per year, and, as in the case of electrocutions, these birds tend to be large and scarce (e.g. raptors). The recent surge of interest in wind power has heightened concerns about their effect on birds, and has led to at least the discussion of efforts by the wind power industry to design more benign windmills and to choose locations that are less “birdy”. It's difficult for an environmentalist to come out against renewable energy like wind turbines, but as long as the electricity generated is considered a "supplement" to satisfy increasing demand, wind power will not really help the fight against global warming. Establishment of wind farms should go hand-in-hand with drastic cuts in electricity use, and there is a real need for more study of the relationship between birds and wind farms."
Drastic cuts in electricity use will never happen voluntarily. And western Lake Erie or anywhere along the shoreline is too "birdy" for wind turbines. And like Sibley said, you have to look at the type of birds being killed and not just the numbers of birds.
September 4, 2005 Blade article:
"But even with all of the apparent momentum under way for the renewable energy market, don’t expect to see the Lake Erie shoreline cluttered by the sight of wind turbines anytime soon — especially along the ecologically fragile western end of the lake between Toledo and Sandusky."
"One of the Ohio DNR’s top bird biologists, Mark Shieldcastle, head of the state’s Crane Creek Wildlife Research Station in Ottawa County, said western Lake Erie is so important as a flyover zone that he can’t even conceive of wind turbines in this end of the lake."
"The Ottawa County marshes in particular are important to wading birds, waterfowl, songbirds, and raptors, including the state’s largest cluster of bald eagles. “This may be the biggest concentration of birds in North America in terms of migration,” Mr. Shieldcastle said."
"He said the Ohio DNR recommends no wind turbines within three miles of the Lake Erie shoreline. “It’s just amazing the rumors going around about who would like a wind turbine between here and Conneaut,” Mr. Shieldcastle said. “It’s really not practical anywhere along the shoreline.” "
September 26, 2005 Blade article:
"The Altamont Pass Wind Resource Area, east of San Francisco, has 5,000 turbines, and was built in the 1980s in a bird flyway. It's blamed for the deaths of thousands of hawks, golden eagles, and other raptors. A 2001 study estimated that northern California turbines are responsible for more than 90 percent of the nation's annual raptor kills attributable to wind power, the GAO said."
"Studies have shown that wind turbines in West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and other parts of the Appalachian Mountains have been killing thousands of bats, drawing into question the wisdom of siting the devices along mountain ridges."
"Wind is the fastest-growing energy source, but accounts for less than 1 percent of the U.S. energy generation. By 2020, its market share is expected to be 6 percent."
Wow, a whopping 6 percent. We could probably generate more energy if Americans exercised on treadmills or stationary bikes that were connected to some energy storage system.
People and the media like to use the BG "wind farm" as an example of something. First of all, Wood County only has a few wind turbines. That's not a wind farm. It barely qualifies as a demonstration garden. To get any real benefits from wind power, hundreds or even thousands of these turbines would have to pollute the landscape.
How many wind turbines would be needed to equal the output from the old coal-fired Bayshore power plant?
posted by jr at 11:43 A.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
Why not use coal combined with high technology?
http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1167738,00.html
There you go, jr, coal + "high technology" = tax credits out the ass.
Got some stock in DTE or WorstEnergy there, jr? I see DTE's gotten over a billion in credit for their "coal + high tech" program.
Coal is a fossil fuel. Burning it releases all that carbon that was tucked away nice and safe under the ground. C + O2 -> CO2 Oh look, carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas.
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:19 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
So what? Just because it kills less that makes it okay?
When the alternative to wind turbines cause human deaths and pollute the environment, then yes, it is ok to lose a few birds.
And like Sibley said, you have to look at the type of birds being killed and not just the numbers of birds.
If the wind turbines thin out the Canadian Goose population, I'm all for them. They're like flying banana rats.
You're talking about perching. What about flight?
From Windpower.com
"Birds are seldom bothered by wind turbines, however. Radar studies from Tjaereborg in the western part of Denmark, where a 2 megawatt wind turbine with 60 metre rotor diameter is installed, show that birds - by day or night - tend to change their flight route some 100-200 metres before the turbine and pass above the turbine at a safe distance."
"People and the media like to use the BG "wind farm" as an example of something."
So is the Altamont study. Statistically, it's an anomally and the short wind turbines at that site are being replaced with more bird-friendly turbines placed on higher poles. Placement of the turbines on low towers is not the current standard practice, so that study may be completely irrelevent to new installations. IIRC, the study done on bird deaths in Wisconsin found that there was no real increase in bird deaths when they were compared to other man made structures.
First of all, Wood County only has a few wind turbines.
Yes, and they generate electricity for ~2000 homes on land that would otherwise be useless.
"To get any real benefits from wind power, hundreds or even thousands of these turbines would have to pollute the landscape."
Pollute the landscape? I'll take a polluted landscape and a few bird deaths over an early death. Besides, am I the only one who finds the towers beautiful? Slap some LEDs on the tips of the blades and offshore wind turbines become a nightly light show for those on shore.
Here's another idea: Place the wind turbines in the right of way of I-75. There's tons of places to locate these turbines that won't detract from the landscape, like landfills and brownfields. Anyone complaining about the "ugly spinny things" out at the hazardous landfill are cordially invited to kiss my white ass.
posted by thenick at 01:21 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1167738,00.html
There you go, jr, coal + "high technology" = tax credits out the ass.
Time has gone the route of Salon.com and requires registration, but I'm guessing it has something to do with the project in Colorado where diesel fuel is being produced from coal. The same project that is powered by the largest coal plant in the US because it requires so much energy to heat the coal and produce oil, right? That project smells like a Segway.
If we're going to have a net loss of energy when creating, why don't we produce hydrogen instead. At least it burns clean.
posted by thenick at 02:18 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
Anyone complaining about the "ugly spinny things" out at the hazardous landfill are cordially invited to kiss my white ass.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaking of landscape pollution, why not bitch about cell phone towers?
You only see the damn things in daylight, at night, oh wow, a blinking red light.
There's a tower not too far away from me that has strobes on it so bright and aimed so badly that they flash on houses, and definitely so much so that it's noticeable.
Speaking of pollution, why not bitch about light pollution? I'd like to see some goddamn stars out, thanks. Last time I remember seeing stars was during the Great Blackout. Alas, everyone needs 500 watt security lights on their property nowadays, and businesses need 10kW of lighting on their property and signage, even when they are closed... assuming they even close. They even have Toledo's Memorial Penis, er I mean "Veterans' Glass City Skyway Main Pylon" covered in programmable LED panels, so we can presumably sell advertising space on it... I expect it'll say "CARTY GETS RESULTS" on it in due time.
posted by anonymouscoward at 02:24 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
Time has gone the route of Salon.com and requires registration, but I'm guessing it has something to do with the project in Colorado where diesel fuel is being produced from coal.
It didn't require registration when I visited.
Try this one:
http://p088.ezboard.com/fdownstreamventurespetroleummarkets.showMessage?topicID=16452.topic
posted by anonymouscoward at 02:26 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
"jr: Ah, yes footprints. People who support oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge bring up footprints. Today's drilling technology uses a smaller footprint, and this supposedly means it wouldn't be a problem for the environment when drilling in ANWR. That's the argument, correct?"
Now - I'm not picking a fight and I plan to read what Sibley's written but about your comment above (not picking a fight) aren't our oil futures somewhat limited? We have our own reserves - but we are dependent on foreign oil. If we do not come up with alternative sources for gas and electricity - where does anyone think it's going to come from?
I just only hear so very few options ever mentioned as alternatives to foreign energy and traditional electrical production and they always just get shot down. Nope, can't do that. What ARE we going to do then?
You drive a car,,,right? A gas burner?
posted by katie82640 at 05:21 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
"Wind is the fastest-growing energy source, but accounts for less than 1 percent of the U.S. energy generation. By 2020, its market share is expected to be 6 percent."
Yeah, good alternative, people. Let me guess, you probably believed everything Miss Cleo said too. You wind turbine fans are exactly the crowd the government is looking for. You let the government off the hook.
AC said above:
"Ethanol is a government handout to ADM and the farmers, people."
From that September 4, 2005 Blade story posted above:
"Like a silver needle rising 165 feet above Lake Erie’s surface, a newly completed offshore wind tower near downtown Cleveland has the potential of making the Great Lakes region a bigger player in the renewable energy market. The 6,000-pound tower, by far the region’s tallest in the open water ... Green Energy Ohio, a nonprofit group behind the venture, expects it to produce the kind of results necessary to take the next step: gauging the public’s interest in putting utility-scale wind turbines out in the lake."
Besides windpower, Green Energy Ohio is also involved with solar, hydro, and biomass. From GEO's biomass page:
"Biomass fuels, or biofuels, are solid, liquid or gas fuels derived from feedstock. In Ohio, this is primarily landfill-to-gas methane, biodiesel auto fuel from soybeans, and ethanol-blend gasoline from corn. And unlike fossil fuels, which take millions of years to reach a usable form, waste biomass is an energy source that can close the loop on many of our recycling and hazardous waste problems."
So AC, why should we trust an org that's promoting windpower along the lakeshore that is also involved with or encouraging the use of biodiesel fuel that you claim is a government handout?
More about biomass from the GEO:
"The most obvious environmental benefit of biomass is the displacement of fossil fuel usage, and the corresponding reduction in air pollution and acid rain. Another beneficial environmental impact is the recycling of atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2)."
"The expansion of the biomass industry at the expense of the oil and gas industries makes good economic sense. Assuming a 2% annual increase in consumption, the known world oil reserves could be depleted by 2019."
"Under an expansion of the biomass industry, employment in agriculture, forestry, and industries related to producing feedstock will exhibit significant increases. And unlike petroleum refineries, whose products must be transported over long-distances to reach the market, the biomass energy industry would be widely dispersed in rural areas. This means more smaller plant locations, more rural jobs, and fewer transportation costs."
"In order for biomass to become a viable industry, several barriers to entry must be mitigated:
1. We need to build significant, large-scale energy plantations that can supply sustainable amounts of low-cost feedstocks. (We currently lack such plantations).
2. We need to increase returns on investments. This will make it easier to obtain financing for first-of-a-kind plants. (Currently, the returns on such investments are low and, therefore, financial unrewarding for investors.)
3. We need to impliment a nationwide biomass energy distribution system to simplify consumer access. (Currently, no such system exists.)"
"The US Department of Energy predicts that by the year 2010, over 13,000 megawatts of biomass power could be installed, with 40% of the fuel supplied by 4,000,000 acres of energy crops and the remaining 60% taken from biomass residues."
The "funders" of the non-profit Green Energy Ohio:
# The George Gund Foundation,
# The Lake/Geauga Fund of the Cleveland Foundation,
# The Gladys H. Goodwin Fund of The Columbus Foundation,
# The Ohio Department of Development, Office of Energy Efficiency,
# and through individual and organizational memberships.
Mmm, is that one funder a government agency? Windpower will be responsible for 6% of energy generation by 2020. How is that a good use of private donations and taxpayer dollars?
katie, about the amount of coal that's supposedly available in the U.S.:
"Coal is a plentiful energy-producing fossil fuel. The government estimates that the United States has enough coal for hundreds of years, more than any nation except Russia."
What about hemp?
"HR 3037 would give states the right to regulate farming of versatile hemp plant. Ralph Nader called the US ban on hemp farming, "bureaucratic medievalism" because over 30 industrialized countries are growing hemp and the U.S. is the number one importer of the crop. Twenty-six states have introduced hemp legislation. Industrial hemp is used in a tremendous variety of products, including food products, soap, cosmetics, fertilizer, textiles, paper, paints and plastics."
A biodiesel fuel called hempoline.
Get a vehicle with a diesel engine.
"Biodiesel is the only alternative fuel that runs in any conventional, unmodified diesel engine. It can be stored anywhere that petroleum diesel fuel is stored."
"Biodiesel is a proven fuel with over 30 million successful US road miles, and over 20 years of use in Europe."
"Biodiesel is the name for a variety of ester based oxygenated fuels made from hemp oil, other vegetable oils or animal fats. The concept of using vegetable oil as an engine fuel dates back to 1895 when Dr. Rudolf Diesel developed the first diesel engine to run on vegetable oil. Diesel demonstrated his engine at the World Exhibition in Paris in 1900 using peanut oil as fuel."
Hemp4Fuel.com.
HempCar.org
Another option, buy a diesel engine vehicle and make friends with restaurant owners that have a lot of used vegetable oil.
GreaseCar.com
March 14, 2006 MSNBC story:
"Most drivers fuel their vehicles with gasoline. Robert Tomey powers his with French fry grease. The owner of four McDonald's — in Amory, Aberdeen, Houston and Vernon, Ala. — recently converted his Volkswagen Beetle and the company's Ford pickup truck to run on used vegetable oil drained from his fryers."
"And perhaps even better: Tomey once spent more than $350 a week for diesel — he now spends next to nothing. "I couldn't believe it was that easy," Tomey said while pouring gooey grease into the tank of his silver Beetle."
"Converted vehicles using Greasecar have two gas tanks. Drivers pour diesel into the regular tank and vegetable oil into a separate tank. In the Beetle, for example, that tank is in the trunk. A switch installed in the cab allows drivers to alternate between the two fuel systems. When Tomey starts his Beetle he activates the diesel tank to warm the car and heat the vegetable oil. At that point, Tomey flipped to the second tank and the car pumped pure vegetable oil into the motor."
He calls his greasecar a Frybrid.
Despite the savings, most Americans won't do this because it requires too much effort.
posted by jr at 11:30 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006 #
Getting back on topic for a sec, from the Youngstown Business Incubator website:
"The Youngtown Business Incubator (YBI) is a 501 (c) 3 charitable , non-profit corporation, funded in part by the Ohio Department of Development. Its primary mission is to accelerate the startup and growth rates of scalable technology-based businesses in the greater Mahoning Valley. Although YBI will work with firms possessing a broad range of proprietary technologies, its current focus is on developing B2B software application companies."
Yet, about the 2004 closing of Toledo's business incubator:
"The Toledo area suffered a loss of more than $1.2 million in Edison technology grants [in 2003] from the Ohio Department of Development's technology division, while grants for most of the other regions in the state increased."
Edison technology grants.
It seems a business incubator exists in Dayton called the Dayton/Miami Valley Entrepreneurs Center, Inc.
"(D/MVEC) was established as a 501 (c) (3) not-for-profit corporation. The first tenants moved in on September 1, 2000 and the center is currently doing business under the name of The Entrepreneurs Center (TEC)."
The Dayton incubator website also says: "An Edison Technology Incubator."
From the Dayton site:
Criteria for Selection of Tenants
1. A Viable Business Concept in the areas of:
* Information Technology
* Engineering Science and Technology
* Prototype Manufacturing and Manufacturing related technologies
* Bio-Med Technology
* Automotive Technology
2. Whether the concept has Commercialization Potential based upon the feasibility of the technology or business concept, market potential, management expertise and the potential for financial return.
3. A potential for the Generation of Jobs.
4. An Operational Feasibility plan delineating milestones and projected cash flow.
5. A Commitment and Willingness to Accept Guidance.
Toledo is incubator-free. At least we have a smoking ban. That should create and attract new businesses.
posted by jr at 12:01 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 29, 2006 #
jr, I seem to remember something called ITANO, which was a joke.
What I want to know is, if I started up a volunteer-driven replacement for the RGP, would anyone get off their asses and help? Because the RGP isn't doing diddly-fsck. And I know if I ran an effort all by myself, I'd be a real hardcase, and that wouldn't be good... so I'd need *someone* to be the "calming influence".
posted by anonymouscoward at 12:20 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 29, 2006 #
Yeah, I went to a few ITANO Thursday night gatherings upstairs at Hoster's restaurant at The Docks. This was back in 2000 or 2001. It lasted a year or two, maybe three. ITANO also hosted some other meetings or conferences that charged admission.
ITANO was Information Technology Alliance of Northwest Ohio. The informal Hoster's gatherings were suppose to be a way for nerds and management to network. I think.
You can view the itano.org website back in 2001 thanks to the Wayback Machine. Today's itano.org belongs to some other group.
From the northwest Ohio ITANO website in 2001:
"ITANO brings the region’s Information Technology experts together into a single organization in order to make northwest Ohio a competitive force in the IT industry."
"Our members connect with partners and peers, create new opportunities for themselves and their clients, and successfully compete in regional, national, and global markets."
ITANO's mission in November 2002:
"We make IT our mission."
"We are the Information Technology Alliance of Northwest Ohio, a single organization with a single vision: to promote, strengthen and grow the Information Technology industry in our area. We recognize the substantial economic potential of building on the strong IT industry foundation already in existence and supporting the creation of new businesses. In addition, we strive to develop a highly skilled IT workforce in Northwest Ohio and Southeast Michigan -- to benefit both existing businesses, and to attract new ones."
"As part of our alliance, members connect with partners and peers, create new opportunities for clients and themselves and compete in regional, national and global markets. ITANO members come from all types of business, and all walks of life. Together, we are on a mission to make the Northwest Ohio/Southeast Michigan region a force to be reckoned with in the IT industry."
The last entry of "our" itano.org in the Wayback Machine is January 2004. Then some other company or org took ownership of the domain name.
posted by jr at 01:04 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 29, 2006 #
Some background on incubators...the downtown incubator, Center for Technology Commercialization, did have significant financial and audit issues, so it lost its funding.
However, we do have an EISC in Toledo
www.eisc.org
posted by MaggieThurber at 06:39 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 29, 2006 #
AC,
I'll get off my ass and help.
I checked out the EISC website and there is nothing there. Looks like a website that was just created.
Good discussions, all of the resources and information are very interesting.
posted by jdmsbyrd at 08:01 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 29, 2006 #
"Biodiesel is the only alternative fuel that runs in any conventional, unmodified diesel engine. " and "Despite the savings, most Americans won't do this because it requires too much effort.
posted by jr at 11:30 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 28, 2006"
I don't know about 'most' people but that's outside of my control.
This is all info that is useful. I haven't done anything because I haven't known WHAT to do. I taught the kids (and believe this) first you have to figure out what you want to do.
Then plot out the course. So, I am this far. I sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo want to fly the bird at the petrol industry. I can't put into words how harsh my feelings are at this point. Firstly about the planet's health. Secondly about the enormous advantage, worldwide, that a select few are taking of the need to move people and product. Infuriating.
I am going to research everything you posted. Anybody have any additional info?
I'm thinking about an old VW Rabbit or something. And then you'd have to have the alternative fuel on an ongoing basis. Think, think, think :-)
posted by katie82640 at 02:59 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 29, 2006 #
Akron's Edison Technology Incubator is called the Akron Industrial Incubator.
The list of Edison Incubators shows Toledo's as the Regional Growth Partnership.
That other Toledo incubator site or whatever it's called is pretty lame. Under What's News, the webpage says:
"There are no items to display"
That just about sums it up for Toledo.
posted by jr at 03:16 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 29, 2006 #
Gee, jr, I wonder why that is that Toledo sucks?
Maybe it's because anyone with a brain stays FAR FAR AWAY from Toledo, and anyone with half a brain and the means LEAVES TOLEDO.
Isn't this what these so-called "studies" have said for the past n years?
The RGP needs to be fired.
What's telling? The fact that the RGP webshit is a broke-ass pile of garbage, with a (C) 1996 on it. LAME!
If anyone at the RGP actually had a goddamn interest in doing their jobs (which is more than sitting back, giving a few quotes to the Blade, and collecting paychecks), they'd be on this very board.
As much as I don't care for politicians, especially Toledo-area politicians, I give Ms. Thurber and Mr. Konop a grudging amount of credit for possessing the gonads to come on here and face the public. Here's a suggestion to both of them: Go tell your respective party members there in Lucas County and in the rest of "Lake Erie West" to get their collective asses online. If necessary I'll set up a different discussion board with some half-decent features (threaded/nested comments!) as "neutral" ground. Probably would have to make at least one person from each party a moderator as well.
You guys need to realize that the problems around here transcend party politics... your respective parties differ on what to do about the problems, but you both need to get off your asses and do SOMETHING instead of blowing hot air and slinging mud at your political opponents because nothing's been done.
posted by anonymouscoward at 07:00 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 29, 2006 #
AC - you can lead a horse to water...
As for the RGP, they're not the same organization they were. They're now a private organization with private funding. The new director is getting his staff in line and working on the priorities and strategy with the Board.
I don't know where your animosity toward it comes from, but I believe they're going to be successful as long as the politicians stay out of their way...
posted by MaggieThurber at 08:48 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 29, 2006 #
Are you guys serious? Toledo has a Regional Growth Partnership?
I haven't hit the links yet - but I think given the obvious you are setting me up here. Seriously? How can this be?
Scratching my head.....this is like when I found out about this Port Authority.
Kate is very confused :-(
posted by katie82640 at 09:54 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 29, 2006 #
A posting from last September, which contains some excerpts of an interview the Toledo Business Journal conducted with John S. Szuch, chairman of the board, Fifth Third Bank.
Some excerpts of the excerpts:
----
TBJ: What do you see as the most important need in the business community?
JS: One of the most significant needs is the lack of leadership from the business community. Toledo used to have a network of the major corporations and banks headquartered in Toledo, which provided an ability to coordinate a group of powerful and influential leaders who exerted quite a bit of influence over economic development.
JS: I think this leadership void has been the single largest flaw that we've had. However, at this point, I think the privatization of the Regional Growth Partnership (RGP) should give business a concerted and focused voice. If the business community speaks out as a group through the RGP, it will have much more influence over events affecting our economic development. Revitalization of the RGP might be the single most significant event in the development of the economy of northwest Ohio in the last decade or more.
TBJ: What advice would you provide for advancing the economy in our region?
JS: To really move forward, we need to promote ourselves as a region, not a group of several localities. That's why the new privatized RGP, which will hopefully take economic development in northwest Ohio out of the parochial interests of the individual governmental units, should have a huge impact.
----
Another posting from last September that points to a Blade story about the new guy heading the RGP.
"In northwest Ohio just five days, the region's newest economic development chief has decided that the area is afflicted with "Eeyore syndrome." "
"Like the gloomy, blue-gray donkey in the children's story Winnie the Pooh, people here are too focused on the area's problems to recognize the value of its assets, said Steven Weathers, recently installed president of Toledo's Regional Growth Partnership [who was the] former president of the Greater Tucson Economic Development Council."
" "...Be a little more proud," he advised area residents in a luncheon speech yesterday at the Toledo Club to 100 members of the Toledo Area Small Business Association."
"Efforts would be better directed identifying and attracting businesses that can turn a profit in the area, he said."
posted by jr at 10:19 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 29, 2006 #
"Efforts would be better directed identifying and attracting businesses that can turn a profit in the area, he said."
Ok - I want a job doing what Captain Obvious here does. How much does it pay and where do I apply?
posted by katie82640 at 11:04 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 29, 2006 #
I called dibs first, katie.
posted by anonymouscoward at 12:29 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 30, 2006 #
still laughing about that today.
posted by katie82640 at 10:35 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 30, 2006 #
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