I always forget that Toledo has an Amtrak station. I support toledo no matter what, but if they are operating in the red... theres got to be something we can do about it... or they should do as a business....
posted by jim30529 at 09:46 P.M. EST on Sat Apr 29, 2006 #
I haven't yet understood why people use Amtrack. It's not because of the speed (you can be anywhere Amtrack goes by car in the same amount of time), and it's not because of cost (they cost almost as much as airline tickets and much slower). Many people want the US to travel much like Europe and Japan do, so the government subsidizes them endlessly. However, the US isn't setup like that. Our cities are too far apart and our interstate system is too good making driving easy.
posted by HeyHey at 11:46 P.M. EST on Sat Apr 29, 2006 #
It's spelled Amtrak, HeyHey, thanks for messing that up.
Amtrak's first problem is that there's so much political wrangling behind the scenes that interfere with it making money. Senators Fatass, Dumbass, and Porkum make a train (that nobody wants) go through their states in exchange for a YES on the Amtrak budget, for example. Or there's a budget battle one year so Amtrak has to cut to the bone, and the next year they've got lots more money. Or Congress tries to micromanage things and not let the person they hired to run it do his job.
What they need, first off, is a guaranteed amount of money for five years, so they're not caught up in the yearly congressionl budget battle.
Then, they can take that money and fix their broken equipment and get some new equipment (and NOT have to buy it from some company that gives Congressman Lardass lots of campaign contributions and springs for his hookers).
The first thing that people forget, though, is that outside the Northeast Corridor and a few other lines (one in Michigan, I believe), Amtrak doesn't own the tracks it runs on. That means that Amtrak ends up at the mercy of the host railroad... so if Norfolk Southern is congested with container trains of cheap plastic crap from China to be distributed to Wal-Marts all over the Northeast, Amtrak's gonna be stuck behind or weaving around them. That means if CSX decided to defer track maintenance, Amtrak's going to be hit with lots and lots of slow orders over all the bad spots in the track. So people end up 6 hours late and blame AMTRAK instead of the host railroad's problems.
And, oh, why does the host railroad have problems? Oh, let's see... having to handle a boom in traffic, particularly imports from China. Oh, and the ever popular NIMBY factor... everyone bitches about trains, everyone's terrified about one derailing in their backyard, but NOBODY wants to let the damn railroad build some more tracks so they can actually MOVE the trains. It's like that connector track CSX wanted to build in Lake Township... that'd save a lot of trains from going around through Walbridge, across East Broadway, and into Stanley Yard from the north, but oh my gosh and golly! we can't be having that.
A lot of people want high-speed regional rail, but when you start telling them that if you want high-speed, you can't have lots of curves and hills and grade crossings and therefore the best solution is to build new, they start getting pissed off because they don't want to give up some land, they don't want the train where they can see it, and they really get pissy about the price tag... so what happens in the USA is we make do with some cut-rate, half-assed solution that EVERYONE gets shafted on and EVERYONE hates.
Speaking of the interstate system, HeyHey, the NIMBY factor is exactly why our interstate system SUCKS *inside* the big cities... for example, the twisty bit of 75 in Toledo. Or the ever popular Dead Man's Curve in Cleveland (both of which essentially resulted from "don't build a highway through my neighborhood" mentalities).
And, of course, let's see what the Interstate system brings us: lots of slipshod work done by the lowest bidder who is giving kickbacks to the officials. You know, bribery and scandal. And then we have the state turnpikes which are political animals (TOM NOE! TOM NOE!!!!!). And let us all face facts, Toledo has been FUCKED for years by the fucking off on Route 2 and on a nice safe 4-lane route to Columbus (the US-23/I-73/I-74 plans, which the Turnpike was mixed up in once upon a time).
You know what? I have a crazy-ass idea. Michigan's been dicking off on a new bridge or tunnel to Canada for years. I say Ohio gets on the phone to the people over in England and France who built the Chunnel, and we build a tunnel under Lake Erie starting over by Sandusky (which will allow decent access by railroads too). We can plug that sucker right into Rt. 2 and the Turnpike, ram Rt. 4 into a four-lane highway, and ram it into US23 or run a connector over to I-71 and pick up a lot of NAFTA traffic from the South. Wouldn't that just give Ohio a boost? Yeah, it's crazy because geez, hey look, the Brits and French spent as much on a 31 mile tunnel as we have on a 3.5 mile tunnel in Boston. See also "Big Dig".
But anyway, that's way off the subject of Amtrak.
posted by anonymouscoward at 05:23 A.M. EST on Sun Apr 30, 2006 #
When I was younger my Parents and I took Amtrak to Chicago. It was great.
So awhile back I called, asked what the rate from Toledo to Chicago would be. I was just figuring out the costs of a weekender in Chicago. Nothing specific-general idea. Leave Friday, back on Sunday.
The lady on the phone couldn't tell me, not even ballpark. Snotty as hell, completely refused to help me. Didn't even give me a price range, anything. I was being a good customer with a simple question. If they were an airline she would've been fired.
So I'm completely turned off on Amtrak, maybe I'll just drive or hop a Greyhound.
posted by Bruno at 06:39 A.M. EST on Sun Apr 30, 2006 #
Terrible experience Bruno. I'd've been tempted to call bk and ask for the person's manager. I dont know of too many cust svc call centers these days that dont record all their calls.
If you decide to give them another shot, try this: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/HomePage You can plug in the dates you want to go and it will give you a quote with a couple options as far as time you'd want to depart, or arrive. I popped in this coming weekend, and It looks like you could make the trip for about $76 bucks, but I wasnt really thrilled with the times you'd have to put up with.
Hey Coward - "It's spelled Amtrak, HeyHey, thanks for messing that up." You're pretty good with 2 syllable words. Maybe you should MoveOn to your 3 syl ones before you start throwing stones (ie, congressionl).
I do compliment you on your ability to turn a post about trains into a rant about WalMart and Tom Noe. Very good. Also got to drop a few F-bombs, so that has to make you feel good too.
posted by billy at 10:30 A.M. EST on Sun Apr 30, 2006 #
Yes, AC, you have one crazy ass. A Cleveland-Canada (or whatever) tunnel sounds physically feasible. However, doesn't Canada have ocean ports? And don't those ports take in cheap plastic crap like the ones in the USA do? A northward road/rail corridor may have far less economic feasibility than you think.
Anyhoo, I've never figured out how Amtrak competes, considering they are slow, expensive and destination-resticted.
Considering how often the Congress has to bail them out and how often the service is heavily overbudget, I'd say Amtrak's executives ALSO don't know how they compete. But why should they bother? Congress will just bail them out again. Are kids ever really careful with their parents' credit card? Hell no!
posted by GuestZero at 01:50 A.M. EST on Mon May 01, 2006 #
Yes, AC, you have one crazy ass. A Cleveland-Canada (or whatever) tunnel sounds physically feasible. However, doesn't Canada have ocean ports? And don't those ports take in cheap plastic crap like the ones in the USA do? A northward road/rail corridor may have far less economic feasibility than you think.
I didn't say the cheap plastic crap would go to Canada via the USA.
Start thinking about Canadian lumber entering the USA, or the autos that are built in Canada by the plants that ran up there to escape paying health care.
Hmm what would we export back? Fruit from the south?
GZ, do me a favor. Go to Wikipedia. Read the articles on Amtrak and Conrail.
If Congress actually paid up what Amtrak needed to improve service, WITHOUT putting in all sorts of provisions (like in order to get this money, Amtrak has to run an unprofitable, pointless train through Senator Fatass's home state), Amtrak might get somewhere. The fact of the matter is that people like you and Congress think Amtrak should turn a profit tomorrow, when years of that attitude, political wrangling, bad service, and so on have totally trashed Amtrak's reputation. The only cure to a bad reputation is to put a lot of money into improving service and a healthy dose into PR and attracting customers back, so those customers can have a decent experience and recommend it to others.
Former Amtrak President David Gunn was fired illegally, because Bush couldn't be arsed to appoint enough people to the Board of Directors of Amtrak... and of course, the BoD, being political appointees, know about as much on transportation and railroads and passenger service as "Brownie" the fired horse association lawyer knew about emergency management/FEMA. That's one of the perennial problems of Amtrak, micromanagement and interference by a pile of people who have poltiical agendas and know jack squat about what they're managing.
posted by anonymouscoward at 06:16 A.M. EST on Mon May 01, 2006 #
Well, bill, you got me started on flying.
Back in the old days when the government regulated the airline industry, flying was a real pleasure. Sexy stewardesses were glad to see you, the food was good and the seats were roomy and comfortable. Passengers got dressed up to fly, and the flight experience in first class was superb. Those days are gone and buried.
We don’t board a flight today. There’s a cattle call which triggers a stampede because passengers know that the family of five in front of them is going to suck up all the overhead compartment space with their barely legal sized luggage. That means any luggage left over will be tagged, bagged and likely lost in transition. Passengers are crammed into narrow seats, people dress and act any way that amuses them, and for every family of five on the flight, you’re almost guaranteed to have one sick kid that infects the entire plane with some kind of airborne virus. Two words: No Thanks.
Take the greyhound, and you’ll find some truly colorful people. I’m thinking of one individual who kept everyone entertained by having an animated conversation with someone else that only he could see while swatting away imaginary bugs. Again: No Thanks.
Feel free to drive yourself, which isn’t a bad idea until you consider that the gas prices will ruin any vacation you might want to take. Add to that the truck driver who’s had one too many goofballs, the traffic congestion around construction sites and accidents and the other screwy drivers on the road. I’ve had people actually try and kill me on the highway, and I do mean deliberately. I’ll drive, but I won’t like it.
Amtrak is a nice alternative. Get a night train and a sleeper, and you can rest all night while you travel. If you’re traveling during the day, you can read, watch the scenery or do some useful work on your laptop. Last time I took the train I enjoyed it, and with gas prices the way they are the train is looking better all the time.
So go ahead and fly. You’ll get there before I do, but I’ll enjoy the trip a whole lot more.
posted by madjack at 09:52 A.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
Madjack: I love to fly but hate the airline hassles. Fortunatly I’ve had the privilege of flying general aviation many times to get my flying thrills.
I love to drive on long trips but, as you say gas prices are becoming prohibitive. I’ve always wanted to travel by rail. I want to take a cross-country trip with a sleeper and sit in one of those seats facing backwards (so I can see where I’ve been)!
My questions for you are do the trains stop a lot at night and awaken you and can a I guy bring his own adult beverages?
posted by Offshore at 10:32 A.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
Oh - they have bars. I love traveling by train. They have a concession car for longer trips. And you can get a sleeping ticket - it's just fantastic.
There's a railway my Dad and I went on - leaves out of SS Marie. The el Goma railway. Wow. Wow. I highly advocate this as a vacation idea. There are regular trains and then you can book a trip on the 'snow' train and travel through the Canadian countryside in the winter. Flying is nice - but if you want a real getaway - ride the train.
You could bring your own booze if you wanted something in particular. And sleeping? You sleep like a baby - there's something hypnotic about the snick snick of the wheels and the moving back and forth. Like being rocked to sleep.
Ooohhh Katie likes the trains :-)
posted by katie82640 at 02:18 P.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
You know, in any mode of travel, you will always have problems...so the question is, in which mode do you find the least amount of difficulties that impact you?
My friends thought that a trip on Amtrak sounded terrific. Unfortunately, the food service wasn't working due to some problem and then the bathrooms went on the fritz. They were also 3 hours late and missed a connecting flight. That being said, I'm sure that most people who've travelled Amtrak have NOT encountered such difficulties.
But if you're flying - well, that's another matter entirely when it comes to things that could go wrong.
So, despite all the various "issues" relating to types of travel, the biggest problem I see with Amtrak is that it doesn't HAVE to respond to market demand for amenities, schedules, routes or prices because it has no choice but to 'obey' the government when it comes to operations. And government doesn't do many things well - this being one of them.
So I'd love to make Amtrak independent and see just what they could accomplish without government and politician interference.
posted by MaggieThurber at 02:33 P.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
I've never used Amtrak. Doesn't sound good. I like that idea Maggie - see if it'd fly on it's own.
(There is also a murder mystery dinner train in Blissfield).
posted by katie82640 at 02:59 P.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
I've always wanted to do that Blissfield murder mystery train...love murder mysteries anyway...
posted by MaggieThurber at 03:48 P.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
I'm told the Blissfield Mystery Train is fun, but we should keep our options open for the summer and check out the Mystery Cruise on the Sandpiper right downtown! I know I'm going to give it a try.
posted by DoknowDocare at 04:11 P.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
A few years ago when I went to Chicago for a week of software training, I took Amtrak from Toledo, and I considered the train ride experience quite enjoyable.
posted by jr at 04:19 P.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
Thanks for the advice all. I’m seriously considering going to Seattle by train this summer that is, if it goes to Seattle.
posted by Offshore at 04:34 P.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
Whoa, Amtrak to Seattle? You'd probably get there faster by driving. For a short trip to Chicago, Amtrak takes about the same amount of time as driving. So in my opinion, Amtrack is a fine alternative for going to Chicago. But the longer the trip, it seems driving is quicker because of all the stops Amtrak has to make.
posted by jr at 04:51 P.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
We actually looked at the train to Chicago for our upcoming anniversary...right into downtown,... but a couple of things got in the way - a ride to the train station and work schedules not coordinating with train schedules. Our disappointment was the lack of multiple options for travel to Chicago. It's not like there are multiple carriers...
Our senior trip was to Toronto in February (I know - what I can I say...everyone else went south) and we went by train. We thoroughly enjoyed the train ride, the scenery and ease...(but that was a long time ago and I'm sure I've romanticized the experience...)
posted by MaggieThurber at 05:01 P.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
Whoa, Amtrak to Seattle? You'd probably get there faster by driving. For a short trip to Chicago, Amtrak takes about the same amount of time as driving. So in my opinion, Amtrack is a fine alternative for going to Chicago. But the longer the trip, it seems driving is quicker because of all the stops Amtrak has to make.
JR thanks. I've got about a month to do it. I may hitch a ride to Colorado on a plane but either way, the down side is I'll be missing some fine trout water. On the other hand, I'll probably end up driving with tent, sleeeping bag, four-weight graphite and split cane rod on board.
posted by Offshore at 07:26 P.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
I still think you all would love the Algoma. I misspelled it and I know that will shock you :-) ha!
Here's a link:
http://www.agawacanyontourtrain.com/
There's one place that still gives me goosebumps to remember. It's a bridge and it's so high up that these huge pines look like pins. At the very bottom of this huge ravine is one of Thomas Edisons' hydro power plants. And the bridge curves - and it's looong.
You look out the window and see the back of the train curving out behind you way, way, way up high on this bridge. It is surreal.
posted by katie82640 at 08:55 P.M. EST on Tue May 02, 2006 #
Katie:
Thanks for the link. That looks fantastic!
posted by madjack at 07:45 A.M. EST on Wed May 03, 2006 #
Doesn't it though. I've set a new goal. I want to go back and ride again :-) Do the bed and breakfast/two day trip. NO CELL PHONES!!!
posted by katie82640 at 04:09 P.M. EST on Wed May 03, 2006 #
I stand corrected. Yes, I believe Toronto is now the auto capital of North America, not Detroit. Canadian goods would flow southward, as they do now.
Still, quite literally, the last thing the nation needs is another welfare queen with a poor track record (har har) and little promise for the future.
Amtrak should be driven by economics of need, and people certainly do need good transportation between cities. Why not let passenger dollars determine Amtrak's routes?
The government has already poured billions into Amtrak, and like any government-controlled program, it formed an entity not driven by consumer needs but by a perverse mixture of consumer and politician needs. Paying MORE government money into this system is ONLY going to produce an expansion in the politician factor of the delivery equation. Removing the government for the most part from the gov+consumer+provider monetary transaction is the only way to shrink, even eliminate that.
If there's anything that must happen, it's that the government has to allow rail to happen where it needs to happen. We probably don't need a national Amtrak. Regional rails are probably fine. America isn't the Europe/Japan model, but portions of America certainly are (the NE Corridor being a prime example). As the prices of gasoline and jet fuel climb, the costs of operating electric and diesel trains over moderate distances may prove more attractive.
I've taken my share of Amtrak jaunts between Toledo and the NE. I'm certainly in Amtrak's market. I stand ready to put my money where my mouth is. (For my sake, I sure hope my money tastes good.)
posted by GuestZero at 06:00 P.M. EST on Wed May 03, 2006 #
As long as someone mentioned murder mysteries gotta add my 2 cents! Ours blow the others out of the water!
Come see Random Acts perform Musical Murder Mysteries on the Sandpiper!
Tony & Tina's Murder!
http://www.random-acts.net/2006_MURDER_MYSTERY_BROCHURE.pdf
posted by mztry at 11:10 P.M. EST on Sat Jun 03, 2006 #
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