Ohio's rejuvenated manufacturers, who had stripped down and learned to compete effectively with Japan, Korea, Germany and Mexico, stumbled before the new challenge from China, with its rock-bottom labor costs.
I blame UNIONS!
``Oklahoma a decade ago was 40th among the 50 states in terms of job creation. Today it is No. 1, '' he said. ``They attribute that to the fact that they drove down the cost of labor by becoming a right-to-work state, which is a simple way of saying that nobody should be forced into a union.''
I blame UNIONS!
posted by fequalsma73 at 12:53 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
What happened to you that you hate unions so much, fecal?
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:30 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
From a previous thread:
Thanks for asking...
I don't care for unions because I think they are often times not necessary. For example, in a small business, unions often times put them out of business because they are required to pay such high wages. If they offered $10 an hour and no one took the jobs, they would up their wage to meet their employment need. But say they can meet that need by paying $15 an hour, that should be the wage, right? Well, a union says they deserve $20 an hour. To a small business, $5 an hour is HUGE. If someone doesn't think it is a livable wage, then they just don't take the job. That is why most Americans aren't picking tomatos at the moment. They won't do it for $4 an hour. Businesses often times can not afford to pay the $20 and go out of business. It happens more often than we see in the paper.
I also don't like how unions protect those who don't actually do their work. People who just stand around and don't do anything should be fired. But they can't because the unions will make a fuss. Then the management has to meet with the unions. This time for meeting is important in a small business because they need all the time they have to do things for the business. You'll notice that small business owners are often working 24 hrs. a day because it is everything they own on the line. Also, if a business owner can't hire the best qualified for the job, what is the point in trying to run a business at top quality? It's sorta like not firing someone because they are black. Well, they may not do the job well, but I can't fire them because they are black and then the NAACP will get into it and the civil rights people, and the papers will be calling and i will get bad press. When at the base of the problem is that the guy didn't do his work! It didn't matter what color the guy's skin was. In the same way, a business owner can't fire someone because they don't do their job if they are union. Well, it's much more difficult anyway.
I also do not like how unions are formed. If someone wants to join a union, then great, go for it. But if you want to work at (as an example) Jeep and not be a union worker, then you should have that right, shouldn't you? It's like the unions force people to be in them. I would love to work for Jeep quite frankly because I think it is a great (semi) American company and it has a rich Toledo history, but I won't because then I must join the union. I don't want to give them money out of my paycheck. I don't need them to protect me.
I do not like how the unions try to unionize companies that don't want to be. For example, FedEx employees do not want to be unionized. They make more money there than unionized UPS. Why would they want to unionize? The union wants them to unionize because then the union gets all those union dues. It is being greedy and just wants more money. The same is true with Wal*Mart when you see those picketeers outside. Those picketeers are union paid to sit out there and make the company look bad. I think it is shameful to do so. If the employees at Wal*Mart are not happy, then they can leave or unionize themselves.
And yes, I do try to shop at non union places if I can. Many people do this. It is just another reason I like Wal*Mart.
So, that is most of my beef with unions. Thank you for sincerely asking instead of just assuming I am some rich dumbass like some do.
Ouch!!! posted by fequalsma73 at 03:33 P.M. EDT on Fri Aug 04, 2006 #
posted by fequalsma73 at 01:36 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
For example, in a small business, unions often times put them out of business because they are required to pay such high wages.
Name me one unionized small business. By small, I mean <100 employees.
That is why most Americans aren't picking tomatos at the moment. They won't do it for $4 an hour.
Because paying $4/hr would be illegal.
I also don't like how unions protect those who don't actually do their work. People who just stand around and don't do anything should be fired. But they can't because the unions will make a fuss.
I like how management protects those who don't actually do their work. People who just stand around and don't do anything should be fired. But they aren't, because they're the kiss-asses and buddy-buddies of management. You know, the employees who play the social-political-psychological game with the boss, while those of us who actually do the work and bust our asses are too busy working to take the time to actually go out of our way to impress the boss.
If someone wants to join a union, then great, go for it. But if you want to work at (as an example) Jeep and not be a union worker, then you should have that right, shouldn't you?
Or if they want to join the Teamsters instead of the UAW, then that should be allowed. What, don't like free-market economics being applied to union membership?
I would love to work for Jeep quite frankly because I think it is a great (semi) American company and it has a rich Toledo history, but I won't because then I must join the union.
Unit 12, Dispatch.
Dispatch go ahead.
Unit 12, you have a whaaaaaaaambulance call to http://www.toledotalk.com/cgi-bin/ouch.pl?forumid=3&topicid=2881&commentid=367867 , fequalsma73 is crying about how he must be a union member to work at Jeep while also stating how much he woule LOVE to work there.
I do not like how the unions try to unionize companies that don't want to be. For example, FedEx employees do not want to be unionized. They make more money there than unionized UPS. Why would they want to unionize?
Is that money as in cold hard cash, or money as in pay AND benefits? Got some figures or are you pulling this all out of your ass?
f the employees at Wal*Mart are not happy, then they can leave or unionize themselves.
Odd how Mall*Wart loves them some CHINESE UNIONS, but hey, you try to unionize one in the USA or Canada, and it magically closes. The butcher department in one SuperCenter went union, so Mall*Wart closed all butcher departments. You want to buy meat at Mall*Wart, you get it pre-packaged days ago and if it's not the cut or size you want, too bad.
And yes, I do try to shop at non union places if I can.
Remember, when you buy from China, you're supporting Chinese Unions and COMMIES. WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA, FECAL? How about that stuff produced in sweatshops by 8-year-old kids? WHY DO YOU HATE CHILDREN, FECAL?
Also, fecal, what the hell do you actually do besided be a big fat troll? I'd like to make sure that the unions know to boycott that business. :) Or are you really just one of the 101st Fighting Keyboardists on the GOP payroll?
posted by anonymouscoward at 02:04 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Name me one unionized small business. By small, I mean <100 employees.
I will not name names out of respect for businesses still dealing with unions at the moment.
Is that money as in cold hard cash, or money as in pay AND benefits? Got some figures or are you pulling this all out of your ass?
Information from an HR person who has worked at both places.
I can't stand kids.
As for what I do, no one knows but a select few and it shall remain that way. I tell most that I am unemployed and live off investments. No, I am not on the GOP payroll.
posted by fequalsma73 at 02:10 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Bah, flame war.
You know, unions do protect the worthless people from being fired but they also protect you from being fired from your job for idiotic reasons, like when your superiors think you make to much money and it's hurting their chances for their year end bonus, or they simply decide they don't like you anymore.
I'm a very hard worker so I'm not worried about being fired... however if not for the union what I do would be making me chicken feed and despite what people like to think what I do is not easy. Also, I've seen perfectly good, honest workers fired simply because the management didn't like them and wanted them out of the store or pressured them into quitting. Our union didn't protect them because they found a loop hole but it made it much more difficult to fire them.
Unions were created for a reason and in some instances they serve a very vital purpose, in others they really aren't necessary. But you, fequal seem to be extremely biased against unions to the point of absurdity.
On a mostly unrelated note: Wal-Mart is a blight on the face of the earth and should be carpet bombed into dust.
posted by Reinhart at 02:53 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I will not name names out of respect for businesses still dealing with unions at the moment.
Bullshit, utter bullshit. Strap on a pair and name some names. What "small businesses" are unionized?
Now, I have seen union officials protect their union buddies. I have seen unions discriminate against members on the basis of gender, race, religion, and disability. A proper and well-run union is no less and no more evil than a well-run company. However, there are a hell of a lot of not-so-well-run companies where the employees are screwed day and night so the CEO can get paid eight figures a year and a nine-figure retirement package. A union at least eventually realizes that if it shafts its members, there won't be a union for very long. Witness the unions that broke from the AFL-CIO. A business can shaft their employees, and if the employees don't like it, they can go get shafted somewhere else.
You want to talk about hard-working employees? Yeah, like anyone is going to bust their ass working at Mall*Wart when five Waltons are worth about $15 BILLION a piece. And I'm not quite thrilled with the idea of busting my ass at $6 an hour so a small business owner can go ride around in a Lexus convertable. Now, if Mr. Small Business Owner rides around in a practical car or Mr. CEO only makes $300k a year, then people, including myself, can actually bust our asses with the knowledge that we're actually working in a way "for ourselves" rather than to make some other people richer. We're busting our asses for the good of the company with the hope that we'll get something back out of it, instead of the owners/management using the fruit of our labor to compensate for their small genetalia. Unfortunately, yes, we have a small amount of the labor pool who believe in their entitlements and so on and that don't bust their asses and choose to play brown-nosing and office politics, but we've got a bigger problem in the sheer number of people out there who don't *want* to do jack because their hard work isn't making them richer, it's making the rich ownership richer. A hell of a lot of disillusioned people out there who just WON'T do a good job because they see DICK coming out of doing a good job... all the while the news goes on about executive pay, executive scandals, and so on.
The state's 15.7 percent decline in total average annual wages also ranked Ohio dead last.
Net change in minimum wage in Ohio during the same period: 0%
Since September 1997, the purchasing power of the minimum wage has deteriorated by 20 percent. After adjusting for inflation, the value of the minimum wage is at its lowest level since 1955.
Raising the minimum wage isn't simply about the price of labor. It's also about our respect for labor. One of this country's greatest business innovators, Henry Ford, made history almost a century ago by raising the salaries of his production-line workers far beyond the prevailing wage. Ford not only paid his employees well enough to buy the products they built, but he kept his employees loyal and productive. That's also very good business.
The myth that raising the minimum wage will lead to job cuts is just that: a myth. In fact, research suggests just the opposite. According to the Fiscal Policy Institute, since 1998, states with higher minimum wages experienced better job growth than states paying only the federal minimum wage. Among small retail businesses in those higher minimum-wage states, job growth was double the rest of the country.
-- Lou Dobbs, http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/20/dobbs.june21/index.html
Let's see, Ohio's wage goes in the toilet and we lost jobs.
You want to support small business, fecal, how about raising the minimum wage in Ohio? Or is that not supply-side economics enough for you?
posted by anonymouscoward at 03:38 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I don't want the min. wage increased because it might help some poor family whose father is an honest man and hard working, mother does without new clothes for years, has sold her wedding ring to put food on the table, and has kids who search the dumpsters behind wal*mart for dinner. I thought you already knew I was a Republican.
posted by fequalsma73 at 05:08 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I have absolutely nothing against unions-without them, it's doubtful we'd even have a middle class. And I don't like Wal-Mart, either. My daughter bought me some flannel shirts there once. They lasted about three washings. They sell junk. Also, I believe I saw somewhere they're the latgest employer in the country, whereas I believe that distinction used to belong to GM. What a sad commentary. But back to the basic topic here-the reason the republicans have destroyed the state is-our state brand of 'country club/Rockefeller' repubs (aka RHINOS) are HARDLY old-fashioned true conservatives. Tax, tax, tax, spend, spend, spend, and didn't ever see many socially liberal laws/things they didn't like or pass. Whatever happened to the conservative philosophy of leaving people alone, encouraging/helping small business, and having less/smaller government? They don't deserve to stay in power. If they're going to act like democrats, might as well have the real thing. And we just might come November.
P.S. Once more, for those who don't know the term: RHINO="Republican? HA! In Name Only!"
posted by Darkseid at 05:36 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I wish some true conservatives would run in Ohio because honestly I think they could get elected if the rural population comes out strong to vote.
posted by fequalsma73 at 05:42 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Also, I believe I saw somewhere they're the latgest employer in the country
Yes, and have been for several years. The only larger employer is the federal government, and that's public, not private.
And also their employees take the biggest share of Medicaid dollars in most any state. There you go. Shopping Mall*Wart means you support welfare.
Whatever happened to the conservative philosophy of leaving people alone, encouraging/helping small business, and having less/smaller government?
Good farking question. I think the answers involve the words "neocon", "Karl Rove", and "PNAC".
The problem is that small business doesn't have the pockets to lobby like big business does, and even if they did, big business would abuse the programs that were set up for helping small business. We could do with spending billions less in subsidies.
A Republican Party that stayed out of legislating morality and trying to cram their visions down the throats of the rest of the world would suit me fine, as long as they also buckled down on reducing the national debt and so on. I thought they were the party of "states' rights" -- yet Chimpy McFlightsuit there was the one all hell-bent on gay marriage and flag burning Amendments... yeah, amending the Constitution is so pro-states' rights.
Of course, I thought the GOP was also the party of "personal responsibility" and "ethics". If that really was the case, I could think of so many Republicans that would have not gotten into ethics trouble (:: looks around ::) and would have owned up to it if they did (:: looks around again ::). Of course, they were crooked from the start: witness Newt Gingrich's problems not long after getting that Republican majority in the House.
posted by anonymouscoward at 06:01 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
what the hell do you actually do besided be a big fat troll?
That's actually pretty hilarious when you figure it's coming from someone in his mid 20's who cant support himself and still lives with mommy...
posted by billy at 06:02 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
On the bright side, the 217,000 includes names like Noe, McCloskey, Conrad.......
posted by Alternea at 07:16 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I don't want to get into a war of words with people, but I don't know of one small business (under 100 employees)that is union. My brothers have worked at small businesses for years and not one of them have been union shops.
posted by corky at 07:21 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
what the hell do you actually do besided be a big fat troll?
That's actually pretty hilarious when you figure it's coming from someone in his mid 20's who cant support himself and still lives with mommy...
A/C is who said that first one. You know that, right???
posted by fequalsma73 at 07:22 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I don't want to get into a war of words with people, but I don't know of one small business (under 100 employees)that is union. My brothers have worked at small businesses for years and not one of them have been union shops.
I know of them, but again will not say which ones they are because of their current status with unions.
posted by fequalsma73 at 07:27 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I worked at a few before I retired myself, so I know they do exist.
posted by Darkseid at 08:10 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Reinart said "On a mostly unrelated note: Wal-Mart is a blight on the face of the earth and should be carpet bombed into dust."
Well Reinart the topic is on job losses in Ohio. If Wal-mart or other non-union places want to be the only ones creating jobs (which by the way the numbers look that is the case) I will be more than happy to let them in.
It is that very same attitude of "Walmart not union. Walmart bad!" that has caused a brain drain and the loss of so many jobs in this state. As one analyzes the current economy the jobs doing the worst currently are the jobs most affected by labor unions.
Look at the auto industry. Today we are faced with in the next 5-10 years Ford could be the only American owned automaker left. Any expert will tell you it is because American automakers have a higher overhead than their foreign counterparts because of the UAW's stranglehold over their business. If you'd like further proof we can get into the other 1/4 million manufacturing jobs Ohio has lost because the unions have demanded so much that it is now more profitable to send the jobs elsewhere.
Does this mean we panic? Far from it. Ohio needs to restructure itself. It needs to move from an industry economy to a technology economy. But people like Reinhart don't want that because technology jobs are nonunion.
BTW I was raised in a union family. My father has worked for a union over 30+ years. When he did fall on hard times his union came to save the day and only gave him 1/10th of his normal paycheck. He had to damn near cash in his whole retirment just to save his home. So I don't believe that crap that the union fights for it's people because his union told him they wouldn't help him. And for that I will never work for a union and I am all the happier for it.
posted by MikeyA at 08:17 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
You're wrong on all tech jobs being non-union, but beside the point. And the unions used to be a hell of a lot better in years gone by than they are now, I'll agree. Just curious...did your Father's good-paying union job pay for your going to college? As GZ and I pointed out on other threads, somewhere along the way (in the 80's), America got it in its head that the work our parents and Grandparents did was somehow 'unclean'. Bought a lot of cars and homes, and pumped the shit out of the economy for several decades, though. And american automaker's management is just as much to blame-if you want, I'll tell you why, but I'm hittin' the sack right now.
posted by Darkseid at 08:32 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
"And I don't like Wal-Mart, either. My daughter bought me some flannel shirts there once. They lasted about three washings. They sell junk."
Wal-Mart also sells Tide and other related household items. Cincinnati's Proctor & Gamble is one of Wal-Mart's biggest suppliers. Oh, Best Buy and Target also sell junk, but I still visit those stores once or twice a year. Wal-Mart doesn't hold the patent on selling junk.
Only lasted three washings, eh? I've heard similar stories with crap bought at Abercrombie and Fitch. Actually, I saw it first hand with something my stepdaughter bought at the Fitch after someone gave her a gift card or something for that store.
If your daughter wanted flannel shirts, try the Goodwill. A shirt there only costs $3.50. Check with the Goodwill first before going elsewhere.
One day this spring when driving to or from Magee Marsh, I stopped at the Wal-Mart in Oregon to buy a one gig memory card for my camera. So far the card has worked fine.
posted by jr at 08:47 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
The only thing more insufferable than fequalsma73's comments are anonymouscoward's answers. The two of you deserve each other.
posted by madjack at 09:29 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Ahh, I see so you're all right with them paying their employees nothing and buying damn near everything (But no, not everything.) they sell from China effectively (In the long term.) contributing to the ruination of our national economy? And, I believe, taking jobs away from Americans in the end who could otherwise be producing the goods sold there? I know Wal-Mart isn't the only business that does this but I'd say it's a pretty prominent example.
Not to mention they hurt the business of all other local businesses that do business of a similar type. (Like mine.) I don't hate them because they're non-union... I hate them because threaten my job and treat their employees like dirt.
Also, if you want to talk about jobs in Ohio I think if you do any amount of research on what Wal-Mart does to the local economy you'll find it takes down local, small business like a wheat before a scythe. Wal-Mart cannot be defended, anyone who tries makes me laugh.
The last thing I bought there was a pair of boots, a couple years back and they're perfectly fine so, personally, I can speak for the quality of at least some of their merchandise. However, even as dirt poor as I am I'd rather give the extra few dollars to a company that doesn't screw everything it touches.
Also you mentioned they're big suppliers for Proctor and Gamble? Perhaps, but the prices they force some of their suppliers to sell their products for cut profits, close factories and kill jobs. They sell more but they make less, such a dark paradox. One good example is the infamous Vlasic gallon pickle jar. Don't believe me? Look it up.
posted by Reinhart at 09:33 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Only lasted three washings, eh? I've heard similar stories with crap bought at Abercrombie and Fitch.
Perhaps, but at least those shirts from Abercrombie looked damn impressive and stylish when worn in Toledo's "finer" restuarants as opposed to the cut-off tees some people we know wear...oh shit, wrong topic...sorry.
posted by McCaskey at 09:52 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Reinhart said:
"Not to mention they hurt the business of all other local businesses that do business of a similar type. (Like mine.) I don't hate them because they're non-union... I hate them because threaten my job and treat their employees like dirt."
First of all, I'm not a defender of Wal-Mart. But Wal-Mart sells digital camera memory cards, and I don't think Kroger does.
According to Reinhart's profile page:
"I work at the Kroger ..."
Kroger is not a local business. I despise Kroger because Kroger is a big box grocery chain that has no doubt contributed to the demise of many small, local, independently-owned grocery stores. Some Kroger stores sell Starbucks coffee, which I call the Wal-Mart of coffee shops.
Wal-Mart, Kroger, Starbucks, Borders, Meijer, Home Depot, Target, they're all the same to me. I avoid them as much as humanly possible. They have all contributed to the loss of small, narrowly-focused but easier to shop local businesses. And Kroger started destroying local businesses long before Wal-Mart came on the local scene.
Instead of Kroger, we buy our food and other items at the Phoenix Food Co-op, Monette's Market, and The Andersons. You know, true local businesses. It's interesting to watch the big box grocery chains cannibalize themselves while 'ol Monette's keeps expanding.
posted by jr at 10:03 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I wish some true conservatives would run in Ohio because honestly I think they could get elected if the rural population comes out strong to vote.
Ouch!!! posted by fequalsma73 at 06:42 A.M. EDT on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
"Gee Elmer, them there Republicans are comin' round the bend and thay say them Democrat's are gonna take away all yer guns! Then they say's the Democrat's are fixin' to let them gays loose on us. Them Republicans promised to pray with us, and that sure seems mighty fine to me, whaddya think about them doin that? By golly I never seen such honest men in all my born days! They even said they were havin a recruitin' drive, to give all the boy's good jobs and let em' see the world! I'll always vote Republican won't you Jethro? It shore is nice livin' here in America, to know them Republican's will keep us safe from gay's , let us keep our rifles, and keep the prayer circle a goin!"
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 10:11 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I never said Kroger was a local business and I fully realize Kroger destroys all other grocery specific chains in it's path. (We've seen that all to well recently.) I'm also not saying it's good but Wal-Mart isn't just a grocery story, Wal-Mart is an everything store. At least where I work we get paid something and aren't treated (Entirely) like trash.
I love the Andersons... never heard of Phoenix before though, where are they located?
posted by Reinhart at 10:32 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
...well, what do you expect when the State of Ohio taxes the inventory of small businesses, then turns around and rescinds the franchise tax affecting most big-box retailers.
And to add insult to injury, they install a new tax on businesses based on their sales volume. So now big box retailers can keept their inventory out of state, not pay a franchise tax, and only worry about paying taxes on their sales volume.
But small business? They get double whammied with BOTH the inventory tax and the tax on their sales.
And BTW: in the states that are showing the least amount of job loss (or job creation even)... how much of that do you suppose is from local small-medium size businesses vs. large companies/retailers?
Our screwed up tax system, IMHO, seems like a recipe that only drives away local business entrepreneurs... and thus more brain drain.
posted by timault at 11:20 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I'm only saying Walmart is a viable choice and trashing them for making a conscious choice to not be union is ridiculious. If someone has a problem with their wages they can work somewhere else... oh wait... there are no other jobs. So I guess the minimal wage they get is probably worth it.
As for them buying stuff in China I actually don't mind. I'm a realist and as I look around at most of the people in American and realize there might actually be better quality coming from overseas.
Darkseid - My father doesn't pay for my education. I told him long ago I wanted to pay for it myself so that my education would be a product of my hard work both educationally and financially. When the financial burden became too much I enlisted and now my GI bill pays for most of my education.
BCMjeep - How does it feel knowing your pension money is going to democratic fundraising instead of back into your pocket?
Union people - Aren't you bothered that your money is in the hands of the mafia? no wait a union with a president with the last name Hoffa would NEVER think of having mob ties. oh wait... nevermind.
posted by MikeyA at 11:26 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
The Phoenix Food Co-op is probably my favorite store around here. It's located at 1447 W Sylvania Ave, a little east of the "art" theater. The co-op is a tiny but unique store.
At the co-op, we buy fruits, vegetables, bread (try the "Birdland Bread"), eggs, milk, cereal, loose-leaf tea, coffee beans, toilet paper, paper towels, grains, herbs, peanuts, almonds, hand soap, dish soap, dishwasher detergent, socks, etc. The herbs, tea, coffee, nuts, and grains are sold in small bulk bins or jars, so it's help yourself to what you need. About all the food items are organically grown or produced, including the milk, tea, and coffee. When in season or available, the co-op sells locally-grown food products. They sell excellent local honey all year.
About all the non-food items have some kind of environmentally-friendly angle to them, which makes them a little more expensive. For example, the comfortable socks sold at the co-op are made in the US with organically-grown cotton that's grown in the US. The paper towels and toilet paper we buy at the co-op are bleach free and made from recycled paper by Seventh Generation. The soaps are also natural or more friendly to the environment. I haven't quite got used to the "alternative" toothpaste and deodorant sold at the co-op.
When compared to chain stores, some items are cheaper at the co-op while others are more expensive. Someone who buys a lot of herbs told us the co-op's prices are considerably cheaper than Kroger's.
If you become a member at the co-op, you get a slight discount on purchases. If you volunteer a few hours per month at the co-op, you can save a few more dollars.
posted by jr at 11:27 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
fequalsma73 said;"I also don't like how unions protect those who don't actually do their work. People who just stand around and don't do anything should be fired. But they can't because the unions will make a fuss. "
Fequalsma, have you ever worked in a union shop?If not,then quite spewing your BS about unions.I have worked on both sides of the fence and know what it is like to be both management and a union worker.I have seen plenty of abuses on both sides.I have seen the lazy worker you talk about and I have seen the good worker.I have to say in the unions that I have been involved with ,the majority of the workers are good employees.Why don't you spew the same venom at the non-union management people that are out fishing or playing golf while the union employees are running the plants?This goes on all the time where I work.
"And yes, I do try to shop at non union places if I can. Many people do this. It is just another reason I like Wal*Mart. "
Thank you for further helping eliminate the middle class.
Mikey A said;" Ohio needs to restructure itself. It needs to move from an industry economy to a technology economy. But people like Reinhart don't want that because technology jobs are nonunion. "
You may have grown up in a union family but until you have worked in a manufacturing facility and have seen things first hand you don't know what you are saying.In case you haven't ever been in a major factory I don't know how you can say that all union jobs are not high tech.I work with skilled trades people and we use some of the latest technology that is out there.We are constantly going through training on new equipment.Most all of our machines are operated by programable controllers.As an industrial electrician I have to keep up with all that is new in the industrial world.This includes just about anything that has wires going to it.We have to know electronics,machine programing,construction,mechanics,hydraulics,high voltage and heating air conditioning and be able to troubleshoot and repair all of those systems.We also work with networks throughout the plant.These networks tie all of computers together so they can talk to each other.So please quit stereotyping all union employees and their jobs because they are not all the same.
posted by buckeye277 at 11:44 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
It's funny you mention that buckeye. I worked at a union job for a short time my first time in college and became frustrated with it.
My brother like you was an electrician and was in the union but left to follow me into the service. He is preparing to get out where too will be going to college.
Like I said I've seen it all first hand because if you'll notice I said "I was raised in a union family." My grandfathers were both in unions, I was in 2 different ones over my life, my brother was in one, and my father is in one.
Please don't accuse me of stereotyping when I've already given personal accounts to them.
As a side note if my father dies my mother, his wife of 27+ years, doesn't get a cent of his pension and loses health benefits after one year. Now me, a nonunion employer, if I die my wife gets my pension + health benefits until her death or remarriage.
posted by MikeyA at 11:55 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
facal espouses the repub agenda of returning this country to the glorios Gilded Age, when big business ruled unfettered by gov't regulation. the rich cannot continue to shrink the middle class with all this gov't interference. the worker? f--- him. ahh...but in order to do this we must eliminate their ability to collectively bargain. that's why fecal hates unions.
posted by pink_slip at 11:59 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I thought this was an informative posting.
At this site there is a state by state map with corresponding gross product.
http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrel/GSPNewsRelease.htm
There is a .pdf of the 'highlights'. I guess I wonder what the states that are showing such gains are doing...ID, MN, WY, UT
posted by katie82640 at 12:21 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I see and concur with some of the points being made here so I'm going to drop out of this debate, it's reaching a level where I'm going from knowing what I'm talking about to only kind of knowing.
And thank you JR, I'll go check them out sometime.
posted by Reinhart at 12:23 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
My father has worked for a union over 30+ years. When he did fall on hard times his union came to save the day and only gave him 1/10th of his normal paycheck.
This is a common misconception that a lot of people have, unless your father was a union officer he didnt work FOR the union but he was a MEMBER of the union. In which case i think its a nice gesture that they gave him 1/10th of his paycheck when they weren't obligated to do so.
He had to damn near cash in his whole retirment just to save his home.
At least he had a pension to fall back on, a lot of people don't have that option.
BCMjeep - How does it feel knowing your pension money is going to democratic fundraising instead of back into your pocket?
Its called a P.A.C. fund and its entirely VOLUNTARY. and its usually about .02 an hour.
Union people - Aren't you bothered that your money is in the hands of the mafia? no wait a union with a president with the last name Hoffa would NEVER think of having mob ties. oh wait... nevermind.
That rarely happens and if money is mis-handleed the YEARLY audit will find it. the yearly audits are done by outside companies as required by the department of labor, if there are discrepancies then the department of labor is on it. (like flies on sh*t)
As a side note if my father dies my mother, his wife of 27+ years, doesn't get a cent of his pension and loses health benefits after one year.
What union is this? I think that that is acually illegal under the retirement laws but one of the lawyers on here could answer that better.
posted by tm at 12:42 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
As a union member of over 29 years I'll be the first to tell you they are far from perfect. The "leadership" IMHO has become just like the corporate fatcats, so much so that they have distanced themselves from that which should be their primary duty, protecting their members.
However, without unions, you're kidding yourself if you think the big corporations wouldn't walk all over the workers.
Folks that work at places like Honda of ohio actually benefit from the unions without having to be members.
Honda knows if they don't treat their workers well, they will be inclined to want to join the union.
The manufacturing job losses can be traced to N.A.F.T.A. How in the flying f**k is an American worker supposed to compete with someone willing to work for $2.00 an hour?
The Chinese will be worse in a few years.
If you owned a manufacturing plant and could exploit people in a 3rd world country to get them to work for nearly nothing, why wouldn't you?
posted by JeepMaker at 12:50 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Mikey A said;"And for that I will never work for a union and I am all the happier for it. "
I just hope for your sake that your employer will not get rid of you after twenty years because their relative or friend needs a job or maybe they don't like older workers.This happened to my wife after working for a company for twenty three years.She was non-union by the way.
posted by buckeye277 at 01:03 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Also, if you want to talk about jobs in Ohio I think if you do any amount of research on what Wal-Mart does to the local economy you'll find it takes down local, small business like a wheat before a scythe. Wal-Mart cannot be defended, anyone who tries makes me laugh. -Reinhart
Hardy Har Har! Isn't the goal of many companies to grow and expand to the size and dominance of Wal*Mart? If your company could be that big, wouldn't you want it to be? I think this has something to do with capitalism. Don't blame the winner for winning. Look at it and see what they are doing and have done and then get your self in gear and go for the glory, man!
blah blah blah buckeye
pinkslip...didn't i say why i don't care for unions? Can you not read? Please don't state what you think I think and I will not state what I think you think. Thanks.
bbcumjeep--is it not true that the rural population votes conservatively? Is this a problem for you? Or did you just see it as a chance to show how much better you are than people who don't live in the ghetto? Maybe you just wanted to make yourself look 'cool'?
(fecal is fat, he lives with his parents, doesn't work, works for the republicans secretly, spins everything, looks like a toad, i hate him, and he is always right. i hate that.)
posted by fequalsma73 at 01:11 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I just hope for your sake that your employer will not get rid of you after twenty years because their relative or friend needs a job or maybe they don't like older workers.This happened to my wife after working for a company for twenty three years.She was non-union by the way.
I know it would be hard to swallow, but is it possible that your wife lost her job due to poor performance??? I mean, is it possible?
posted by fequalsma73 at 01:13 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Mikey A said;"As a side note if my father dies my mother, his wife of 27+ years, doesn't get a cent of his pension and loses health benefits after one year."
At the time a person retires with a pension they are given a choice if they want a suvivor benefit for their spouse.If they do this their pension is usually reduced by X number of dollars.If they do not elect to have a survivor benefit their spouse will not receive anything ,but their pension payment will be higher while they are still living.Maybe this is what your dad elected to do.I know this is the way my pension works.This has nothing to do with the union because this happens to salaried employees also.You have to to what is right for you and make the proper choices at retirement time.
posted by buckeye277 at 01:17 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
finally some good rational points JeepMaker. I just get frustrated at the "WalMart is Evil/Blame Republicans" people in this are.
My point is that unions aren't perfect have been reduced to being Democratic fund machines and to bash a company for being nonunion is wrong. Especially since most unions were started as nonpolitical organizations.
and actually tm as far as 1/10 his pay my father is considering a lawsuit because after studying his contract he was entitled to more despite what the union told him. Plus the grievance he filed the union said wouldn't be looked at until "the fall" he filed his grievance in March.
and anyone who doesn't think most labor unions have ties to organized crime are just being naive
posted by MikeyA at 01:25 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Mikey A said;"Please don't accuse me of stereotyping when I've already given personal accounts to them. "
I believe you stated;"But people like Reinhart don't want that because technology jobs are nonunion. "
I believe this a stereotype by basically saying that union workers do not work in high tech jobs.You are wrong on that count.As I stated before, I am a union worker and my job is very high tech!
posted by buckeye277 at 01:25 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Buckeye - his contract doesn't give him a choice. Upon his death she will get $48,000 from the company and $10,000 from the union. In contrast his pension is worth hundreds of thousands.
posted by MikeyA at 01:27 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Fequalsma said"blah blah blah buckeye "
Back at you dip shit!By the way I am a conservative Republican.I just get sick of you bashing unions for everthing that you can think of.I find it amusing that you think that only about 12% of the workforce has such a strangle hold on our economy.What about the other 88% of non union workers? Don't you think that they don't have something to do with what is screwed up with our country?Maybe you won't be happy until all of are working at Walmart!
posted by buckeye277 at 01:38 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Bbcmjeep--is it not true that the rural population votes conservatively? Is this a problem for you? Or did you just see it as a chance to show how much better you are than people who don't live in the ghetto? Maybe you just wanted to make yourself look 'cool'?
I was just joking to be funny! Like a hypothetical conversation between two backwoods boy's from the hills! That one passed over your head like so many do! What's wrong with the ghetto anyways? The ghetto is cheap living as long as nobody robs you! At least I can laugh at myself too!
P.S. I changed my screen name back to the proper pronunciation, not mis-spelled like you had it! :)
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 01:45 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
and actually tm as far as 1/10 his pay my father is considering a lawsuit because after studying his contract he was entitled to more despite what the union told him. Plus the grievance he filed the union said wouldn't be looked at until "the fall" he filed his grievance in March.
If this was a BENEFIT that he was entitled to then by all means. Did he file a grievance with his steward or the business agent or president? (definatly check the contract becasue he may be able to file a grievance agaisnt the person he filed his original grievance with by him/her not taking it to the executive board, which most union reps are required to do.)
But what about the COMPANY that he works for? Is he entitled to something from them?
Im not trying to nit-ppick Mikey, i am genuinly curious. I dont see any of those goings on in my union, its very straight forward. So i guess im one of the lucky ones. 8-)
Buckeye - his contract doesn't give him a choice. Upon his death she will get $48,000 from the company and $10,000 from the union. In contrast his pension is worth hundreds of thousands
Then that is what the members of the union as a whole voted for. or at least the majority. If its stated like that in the contract.
posted by tm at 01:56 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
(fecal is fat, he lives with his parents, doesn't work, works for the republicans secretly, spins everything, looks like a toad, i hate him, and he is always right. i hate that.)
posted by fequalsma73 at 02:11 P.M. EDT on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Here, let me help you fix these problems!
1. Go on a diet.
2. Tell mommy and daddy goodbye, check in daily to see how they are doing!
3. Get a job at something you like doing. How about being a Clown?
4. Stop your secretive and furtive contacts with Republican Operatives bent on the enslavement of all working Americans, and the establishment of a Royal Monarchy under the aegis and shield of the Bush Family! How's that for paranoid?
5. Stop lying all the time.
6. Get some good zit cream and use it regularly!
7. You are not alway's right! Please write this ten times in a row on the blackboard, and go to the back of the classroom, and sit there quietly!
8. You hate yourself? Please don't blame that on the Democratic Party too!
P.S. I am "cool" by the way! Now can we get back to the subject here?
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 02:19 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
bbcumjeep- you make the democrats look like...well, democrats. thanks.
posted by fequalsma73 at 02:36 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
bbcumjeep- you make the democrats look like...well, democrats. thanks.
posted by fequalsma73 at 03:36 P.M. EDT on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
You are not very nice making fun of my screen name like that! You are a very bad boy, and I will not invite you to play ping- pong in my ghetto home with my homies! I was trying so hard to be nice, and now you have backstabbed me like the Chickenhawk War Mongering Republican secret double -agent that you are! Do not Deny thisss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am now going to leave this thread, because you have driven me away, to sulk in silence, like Al Gore did after Bush twisted his gonads in that 2000 election fiasco! I will take my toys and run to another thread, hoping you do not follow, and attack my integrity once again!!!!
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 02:54 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
You were trying to be nice? When? Apparently Mr. Hoffa isn't giving you the cuddle time you need because the only time you were nice to me was in person when you said you brought your hyperactive daughter along because you thought I wouldn't hit you in front of your daughter. Try the nice thing again sometime.
posted by fequalsma73 at 03:00 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
You were trying to be nice? When? Apparently Mr. Hoffa isn't giving you the cuddle time you need because the only time you were nice to me was in person when you said you brought your hyperactive daughter along because you thought I wouldn't hit you in front of your daughter. Try the nice thing again sometime.
posted by fequalsma73 at 04:00 P.M. EDT on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
It's not our fault we are hyper-active. It's all a diabolical plot because of the cockroach birth control we need in the ghetto! Every time I used the baits or the spray, I never realized it was a diabolical plot to enslave the more depressed economic people of America and cause them to worship their fearless leader. This was contrived and set up by the greatest exterminator of all, the Great Cockroach! Now I twitch and stutter, and my daughter is hyper, and nobody knows how to behave. It's all because of that damn roach control. Don't you see, it's all about controlling us, as well as the roaches! Why can't you see the obvious here fequal? We had a choice between keeping them down in the drain, or going insane, what would you have done?
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 03:11 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
P.S. I am "cool" by the way! Now can we get back to the subject here?
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 03:19 P.M. EDT on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Now what were we talking about again? Oh yes! The loss of good paying jobs, and the transformation of our economy into a more service based economy.
I'll have to think about that a little bit more. I have never been unemployed for more than a week or two. I have other skills that can be put to use. I am thinking about going back to Owens and finishing my degree in Automotive, and also taking the certifications tests.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 03:44 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
"The Phoenix Food Co-op is probably my favorite store around here. It's located at 1447 W Sylvania Ave, a little east of the "art" theater. The co-op is a tiny but unique store."
When my hubby & I lived on this side of town 3 years ago, we occasionally purchased our deodorants, soaps, spices and foods there. When the both of us lost our jobs and got on welfare, the Co-op was the closet health food store to accept the Ohio Directions card (food stamps). Bassett's does, but was too far away at the time. Claudia's Natural Food Market didn't and STILL won't accept it! Now that we are both working again and have since moved to Hill Avenue/Richards Road area, Bassett's is our closest market. But if we are ever on that side of town, we always patronize the Co-op: excellent staff, excellent goods!
posted by MrsPhoenix at 03:47 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
"I see and concur with some of the points being made here so I'm going to drop out of this debate, it's reaching a level where I'm going from knowing what I'm talking about to only kind of knowing."
Reinhart, that was a wise decision; no wonder your girlfriend loves you!
;)
posted by MrsPhoenix at 03:51 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
I know of them, but again will not say which ones they are because of their current status with unions.
BAWK BAWK BAWK! I hear a chicken. Anything to keep you from being exposed as making shit up. Plus, if you did know of one, it'd be like, what, 1% of all small businessses in the area? Why'd it unionize in the first place, then? Business owner didn't pay enough to keep the employees happy? Yeah, I suppose the union just spontaneously appeared there one day, right.
Well Reinart the topic is on job losses in Ohio. If Wal-mart or other non-union places want to be the only ones creating jobs (which by the way the numbers look that is the case) I will be more than happy to let them in.
Hi. Notice the bit about the average wage in Ohio dropping FIFTEEN PERCENT? It's not ALL about the jobs, it includes the shitty pay the current jobs offer.
Any expert will tell you it is because American automakers have a higher overhead than their foreign counterparts because of the UAW's stranglehold over their business.
And that's why the jobs go to CANADA of all places. They don't have the OVERHEAD OF MEDICAL BENEFITS in Canada. So if we rolled out national health coverage, the overhead of the automakers would drastically drop! The automakers get skilled, HEALTHY workers at half the cost of American workers.
And it's true that Honda and Toyota workers benefit from the union, as Honda and Toyota know they have to keep their employees happy or face being unionized. Besides, Honda and Toyota don't have their heads in their asses like the Big Three do. What have the Big Three been making? BIG FSCKING GAS GUZZLING SUVs! That's where their profits WERE until gas prices went insane. Meanwhile, Honda and Toyota busted ass on R&D and on putting out fuel-efficient cars. GM's shutting down the Spring Hill Saturn plant, but they announced a delay because they suddenly can't meet the demand for Saturn IONs because they're one of the more fuel-efficient and cheap things to come out of GM. The ION's replacement will be IMPORTED FROM EUROPE!
posted by anonymouscoward at 04:01 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Fequalsma said;"I know it would be hard to swallow, but is it possible that your wife lost her job due to poor performance??? I mean, is it possible? "
Nice try , but you couldn't be further from the truth.Prior to losing her job she was given an award from her company for having the best results in the state at what she did.She was also given an award from a local womans group for being an outstanding employee in her industry.I believe what happened is called downsizing.That happens more and more lately to people that are just short of retirement.They get near fifty and the companies get rid of them under the guise of downsizing.Then these companies hire younger workers twelve months down the line and it starts all over.So you younger workers don't get too comfortable in your jobs because this could happen to you.
posted by buckeye277 at 04:06 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Another huge advantage the foriegn auto makers have, especially when it comes to their American plants..........their workforce is so young they have very few retired workers. They don't have to pay the pensions of thousands and thousands of retired employees.
posted by JeepMaker at 04:16 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Oh did I mention fequalsma ,my wife had a non-union job?She was in upper management.The people that worked for her were unionized and are still employed! So unions do sometimes help give you job security.They are far from perfect, but unions do have their pluses for their workers.
posted by buckeye277 at 04:18 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
AC said;"Dear Republicans and conservatives: your party's been in charge of Ohio and Congress during the entire period. Let's hear your excuses on why this has happened."
What about Toledo? It has been run by the Dems for as long as I can remember.Marcy kaptur and Ludlow "the drunk" Ashley come to mind as our congressman in the past fifty years.They have had jobs for life in our district.Toledo has one of the worst job markets in the state.When is someone going to hold Marcy accountable for the poor job market in Lucas county.So I think there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides.
posted by buckeye277 at 04:31 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
buckeye...sounds like your wife got a raw deal. There is no doubt that unions help with job security.
My problem is that it helps the slackers keep their jobs when they should be fired.
posted by fequalsma73 at 06:15 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
My problem is that it helps the slackers keep their jobs when they should be fired.
And as I've said, so what? That happens with non-union shops, where da boss hires his kid or friend's kid or neighbor's kid who slacks all day while you bust your ass. Or the kid wants to be promoted, so s/he gets you fired by playing office politics. Lots of non-union places out there hire slackers that are good at looking good on the ol' resume and bad at actually getting their hands dirty.
posted by anonymouscoward at 06:29 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Two wrongs make a right?
posted by fequalsma73 at 07:54 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
So if we rolled out national health coverage, the overhead of the automakers would drastically drop! The automakers get skilled, HEALTHY workers at half the cost of American workers.
I wouldn't be so sure about this....healthcare will cost the same as it does now. We'll just pay for it through taxes instead of through insurance premiums. Also, there's that little problem of finding providers. The minute we go to a nationalized healthcare system like Canada's is the day that you will see very large numbers of physicians hang it up or opening private hospitals and practices. It's happening in Canada at a very fast rate as we speak and it will happen here to an even larger extent.
posted by HeyHey at 07:57 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
buckeye that's a tough break for your wife. My point on here is that Unions, companies, virtually anyone who can get ahead by screwing the little guy will, in fact, do it. Having a union job isn't the be all end all. Many times the unions end up keeping the nafarious characters around.
On my father's grievance came when he finally was able to search through his contract he found he was entitled to a portion of his pay through the company. When he was laid up he had asked his union steward what he was entitled to. They told him only the stipend of roughly $250 - $300 that he was already recieving. Plus they told him he had to remain off work for a mandatory 6 months due to his medical condition.
What ended up being true was he was entitled to some pay and he could have gone back to work the day the doctors cleared him. Not knowing this and putting the trust in his union leadership he sat out of work for almost 3 months. The only reason he was let back to work was not because of the union but because he threatened to sue the company for discrimination if they didn't at the very least put him at a desk job for a fraction of what he was making.
He is now back to work and is trying to replace the nest egg he had to tap into and his grievance is on the money he was entitled to over his absence. Of course the union isn't moving on the grievance and he is, yet again, considering taking legal action.
Now when I had my grievance filed in the union they told me it took so long because I was at the bottom of seniority. I don't know what their excuse is with him because he's been with the union for 35+ years.
posted by MikeyA at 09:12 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
so my understanding is the the basic tenets of what a union is supposed to be is not the issue people have here? That the issue raised is how our current union incarnation are set up and how they do their business?
I mean, I like the idea of collective bargaining. Without thw workers sticking together, it's way too easy for an unscrupulous business to screw them over....
posted by timault at 10:26 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
Sounds like a lot of you need a nap. Lots of nastiness going on here. I must be the only person who's never been inside a Walmart. I do my shopping based on price, quality and convenience. A Kroger is very close - and I can get it all done there, fast - so it's where I do most of my shopping, and I dont give a flying monkey's ass if they're union or not if it saves me time and money. Anderson's is probably the best Toledo has - the best (by far) deli, produce, and they don't carry anything bad. I shop weekly at Andersons - but the prices are higher, so I limit the goods to what I can't find elsewhere as good. I only buy meat from Kilgus Meats on Laskey - no grease, best quality, and local owned. I do like Target - but only shop there every few months, a bit of this and that. My hair is cut by a local stylist, not a chain.
Phoenix leaves a lot to be desired - unless you're really into the same health/organic/overpriced stuff Bassettes had. My son is very into all that stuff - and nothing he's brought here was very good, and all overpriced. HE thinks it's beneficial - but our country has been eating NON organic for generations - and lived to tell. Organic is fine, if it's home grown and cheap - otherwise, it's too expensive and I have yet to find fruit or veggies that compare to non organic. I have been to Bassettes and was underwhelmed - unless you're really into health foods, organic stuff, it's pricey. All this whoop about organic - every organic veggie/fruit I have seen or eaten has been overpriced, and anemic, lacking flavor, small. Just wash your fruit and veggies first - personaly, I'll take pesticides if it means food that looks and tastes good, and is cheaper. The best produce market is out on Lewis Ave., going into Michigan - used to be called Kaisers but the name changed. Tony's or Monnettes is good, but not as good as Kaisers. Monnettes gets loads of praise, and I do shop there from time to time - but it's not good enough for me to make a special trip, and not enough variety beyond produce. (Deli is always Andersons). My daughter loves Tiger Bakery (local?). I always hated Churchills - and have for as long as I've been in Toledo (my whole life) - expensive and the stores stink.
Simply put - my time counts for a lot, and I prefer to maximize my stops, so I other than a good produce and Andersons stop weekly - I buy close to home, union or not. I hate Meijers - too damned big, wastes time/money - takes for freaking ever to check out of it. They have the sloooooowest checkout people in town.
My husband has been union for the last 25 years. The last 5 years, he went to salary and is not "protected" by the union (30 yrs on the job). The union never did one thing on his behalf. 28 yrs ago, they did give him 30 days off with no pay (jeep) - because he had the gall to leave work to go to the hospital when I was in the emergency room (coma). He never took time off, and that's how the union protected him.
My husband has seen it for 30 years - people sleeping, playing video games, not showing up for work, etc. and it's impossible to fire them if they are union.
posted by starling02 at 11:31 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
the day that you will see very large numbers of physicians hang it up or opening private hospitals and practices.
They're already hanging it up due to malpractice insurance premiums.
When he was laid up he had asked his union steward what he was entitled to. They told him only the stipend of roughly $250 - $300 that he was already recieving. Plus they told him he had to remain off work for a mandatory 6 months due to his medical condition.
What ended up being true was he was entitled to some pay and he could have gone back to work the day the doctors cleared him.
[...]
Of course the union isn't moving on the grievance and he is, yet again, considering taking legal action.
1) That's a union-fuckup or union-in-bed-with-management situation.
2) The union will never admit wrongdoing, because they'd be sued into oblivion by the members who are not good buddies of the union leadership.
3) UAW?
posted by anonymouscoward at 11:54 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 14, 2006 #
"All this whoop about organic - every organic veggie/fruit I have seen or eaten has been overpriced, and anemic, lacking flavor, small."
starling02, your tastebuds must be dead from smoking. Organic produce tastes much better. Obviously, you have never eaten an organically grown tomato that came from heirloom seeds.
Organic produce is smaller because it wasn't grown with chemicals. Your cheap, low-grade, non-organic produce also comes from genetically-altered seeds, so your giant tomato from Kroger probably contains less nutrients than a small organic one. Nutrition-wise, you'll pay more in the long run for non-organic produce. It doesn't matter how much you wash that oversized piece of non-organic produce, you won't improve its nutrient content.
You think you're getting more by buying unnaturally large produce, but you are simply being fooled by the big factory farms and the big companies controlling the genetically-altered seeds.
posted by jr at 12:50 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
My husband has seen it for 30 years - people sleeping, playing video games, not showing up for work, etc. and it's impossible to fire them if they are union.
That is my biggest point with unions and I hate it!!! I am glad someone else sees it.
posted by fequalsma73 at 12:54 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
They're already hanging it up due to malpractice insurance premiums.
Hey! It looks like we agree on something!
posted by HeyHey at 01:12 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
Mike, good for you-on putting yourself through college. I've know SO many who lived at home the entire time, never held any type of job until they graduated, unless it was for gas or party money, and all was paid for by their vile, union member parents, whom they then badmouthed to show their appreciation.
That Goodwill idea wasn't a bad one, jr. LOL Yeah, I know almost every god-damned thing is made in China now, and all stores carry it, but there are plants with halfway decent quality control, and there are plants that churn out junk. I actually think those shirts were made in Sri Lanka or some other godforsaken place. I still say you can shove Target, Wal-Mart, Meier's, and all those other humongous stores up yer ass. I'm 64, and the biggest I want any store to be is say, Kroger or K-Mart (don't think they'll be around in Toledo much longer, sadly-got a ton of super deals there over the years). And, yes-ALL big chains have destroyed small local business over the years, which saddens me no end. I go to Monette's quite a bit myself.
And I've also been one of the fortunate ones who worked both sides of the fence in my life. I say fortunate because it gives you more life experience, and shows you the two sides of the coin.
posted by Darkseid at 08:37 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
So you younger workers don't get too comfortable in your jobs because this could happen to you.
Correction: This will happen to you.
Sorry to learn of your wife's situation. I've seen that kind of thing before, and it's extremely frustrating.
posted by madjack at 09:06 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
Mikey, tell your dad to go over the stewards head to the business agent and/or the president at the union hall and have him file a grievance aganst the steward as well. That might help.
posted by tm at 09:09 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
Mikey A said;" Having a union job isn't the be all end all. Many times the unions end up keeping the nafarious characters around. "
I don't think anyone on here said that a union job is the greatest. Every job has its' pros and cons.Also, unions do not hire or fire people.Companies do that. You make it sound like unions have the final say in who the company keeps on the payroll.I don't know where you get some of this info, but I have seen plenty of union employees get fired at the places I have been employed.You do not automatically have a job for life if you are a union member.Also, the company I work for determines when a employee can return to work after an illness, not the union.It is determined between their doctor and the company when an employee is allowed to return to work.I have seen this first hand over the last thirty years that I have worked union jobs.Also, I am currently a U.A.W. member and have not seen some of the things people on here have said.I think a lot of what is being said here may have happened, but it is not the norm.
posted by buckeye277 at 09:32 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
That is my biggest point with unions and I hate it!!! I am glad someone else sees it.
BUT how can you be objective if you've never worked the union side of the fence? You've only seen one side. There are some VERY good unions out there, but also please remember people will be just people regardless if they work union or not.
posted by tm at 09:41 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
I know every job has it's pros and cons buckeye but I'm just tired of the WalMart bashers because it's nonunion. My point is this country was founded on free enterprise so get over it. They actually might be inclined to join the union if they weren't always being strongarmed.
tm - He's considering a number of approaches. That's why I haven't identified which union he does belong to.
The ones I belonged to when I had my problems were UFCW and Teamsters. My brother was in the electricians local.
posted by MikeyA at 11:17 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
starling, I understand your comments on how expensive organic foods are. Organic foods are expensive. So are non-organic foods. The difference is this: You pay first for organic in terms of money while reaping the awards of getting ALL the vitamins and minerals your body requires without all the fillers and other crap that slowly but surely kills you. You live longer, and the quality of your life is better (less time in the hospital and more time with your family and having fun). With non-organic foods, you pay last by getting some cheap food products that are easy on the wallet in the beginning, but not at the end when your body develops diabetes, cancer, high blood pressure, et.al., then you have HUGE prescription costs, doctor and hospital bills. Then when you die at the ripe old age of 60, all your shitty unpaid bills get passed down to your family members.
Pay now; pay later; but you will PAY.
posted by MrsPhoenix at 12:39 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
Mikey A said;"I know every job has it's pros and cons buckeye but I'm just tired of the WalMart bashers because it's nonunion. My point is this country was founded on free enterprise so get over it."
I agree that this country was founded on free enterprise ,but it was not founded on slave labor and sweat shops.Thus the need for unions.Also, Mikey ,I would not want you to have to quite bashing unions because you have that right, but others also have the right to bash Walmart if they don't believe that they are good for the working families of this country.
posted by buckeye277 at 01:12 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
The ones I belonged to when I had my problems were UFCW and Teamsters. My brother was in the electricians local.
Ahhhhh, i see. However i didn't realize the electricians were bad. Or is it the electrical workers. they are seperate unions.
posted by tm at 01:34 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
Well, since the electrical union was brought up....
My employer is a union shop, maybe less than 25 employees. An employer can fire you, and give a "no re-hire", meaning if the company calls the union for a journeyman, they won't get someone they previously gave a no re-hire too. Three no re-hires and you're out of the union. Also there is an un-official blacklist of people that employers don't need to accept, take the next guy on the list. If any apprentice doesn't cut it, they're out. Being in a union isn't a guarantee of total employment. Slackers aren't protected.
I don't shop at wal-mart and never will, vote with my dollar. I only buy Red Wing boots, they last much longer than Chinese cheap'os and are made in America. Same with my hand tools. Not everything I could do, but I'll do what I can.
posted by Bruno at 05:57 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
I agree that this country was founded on free enterprise ,but it was not founded on slave labor and sweat shops.Thus the need for unions
Ah - but Buckeye what say you about the fact that the Sears/Kmart combo has used more sweatshops than Walmart does, but they dont catch the shit -
posted by billy at 06:39 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
Red Wing's still around! Glad to hear it.
posted by Darkseid at 08:55 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
CollegeKid to the rescue! A few comments from the 82 posts I've read (quite the popular topic)!
1.) FedEx does not pay more than UPS. Trust me, they don't. My dad works for UPS--so I know.
2.) The reason Toledo's economy is not that great is because of asbestos (O-I and OC) and the auto industry (Dana and Jeep). The asbestos problem is unrelated to unions, but much of the auto industry problem is. Like it or not, foreign auto companies (with the exception of Honda) have chosen not to locate their manufacturing facilities in Ohio and Michigan because they do not want them to be unionized. Hyundia makes cars in Alabama. BMW makes cars in South Carolina. Both are right-to-work states.
3.) Wal-Mart and other big-box retailers make the American economy more efficient. I always laugh when a bunch of uneducated blue-collar workers gripe about how Wal-Mart is ruining the American economy. I ask all of you one question--have you ever taken a college economics class??? If not, then shut up! If so, then feel free to engage in the never-ending debate about whether Wal-Mart is good for America. See my next point for how Wal-Mart is good for America, since it relates to outsourcing.
4.) Outsourcing increases a persons real income. Here's an example of why the whole argument that outsourcing and Wal-Mart is bad for America is a bunch of twisted propaganda purported by the Democrats on uneducated blue-collar workers scared of losing their jobs (a fear that I sympathize with). But hear me out. Let's say that 10 years ago a 27" TV cost $400. However, due to Wal-Mart and outsourcing, that same TV can be purchased today for $200. That means that your "real income" (in terms of purchasing power) has increased $200! Now, you have an extra $200 to spend in our economy. What will you do with it? You can save it, invest it, give it away to charity, or (the most popular) spend it. If you save it, the bank will loan the money to someone who will spend it. If you invest it, companies can expand, creating jobs. If you give it away, it will ultimately be spent. And of course if you spend it, that extra $200 you wouldn't have without "the Wal-Mart effect" will be spent in our economy. What can you spend that money on? Let's say you also purchase a surround sound system with your "extra" $200. While it is true that the TV or surround system was not made in the US, which caused jobs to be "lost", looking at the big picture you will see that jobs have been gained. First of all, you wouldn't be buying the surround sound system if the TV cost $400 because it was made in the US, so the only lost jobs regard the actual assembly plant manufacturing the TV. But, there were also jobs gained by you purchasing the surround sound system. Someone in California had to unload that shipment of surround sound systems from China--an American worker. An American worker operated the train that shipped the surround sound systems to Chicago. An American drove the Wal-Mart semi truck from Chicago to the distribution center. An American unloaded the surround sound systems from the semi truck. Americans working at the distribution center teamed together to make sure that the shipment of surround sound systems goes to the right Wal-Mart store. And, of course, it creates jobs on the retail store level. And to boot, you are more happy because now you have a surround sound system you wouldn't otherwise have. And this is just the blue-collar jobs! Someone had to design and engineer this surround sound system. Someone had to design a TV ad to sell it. Some TV station got more revenue from advertising from that commercial, allowing them to hire more people. Someone has to run the corporation selling the surround sound system.
While it is true that outsourcing might hurt some workers, in the end the overall effect is good for the American economy. Instead of focusing on the overall effect, many people focus on the few workers who lost their jobs. Well, they'll just have to find one of the "created" jobs! It's not an American right to have a job! It's the responsibility of each American to specialize in what he/she does best! Specialization and exchange--that's what Adam Smith had in mind! Outsourcing and Wal-Mart just force the economy to become more efficient (specializing and exchanging even more), which is good for America.
posted by CollegeKid at 10:02 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
1.) FedEx does not pay more than UPS. Trust me, they don't. My dad works for UPS--so I know.
False! My source is the HR departments at FedEx and UPS.
posted by fequalsma73 at 10:05 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
jr and mrsphonix - I HAVE tried a LOT of organic, from many sources - and I repeat, I've been disappointed every time, and it has nothing to do with dulled from smoking taste buds. (they aren't dulled to other produce). My 35 yr old son is vegan, and has been way overboard on the whole organic/vegan/raw food lifestyle for some time - to the point he pays crazy prices for special seaweed to be shipped in from out west. Believe me, he tried to prove it to me that organic was superior - kept bringing me organic this and that.
I'm not saying ALL organic is anemic -most is. All I'm saying is, that people get so paranoid over pesticides (wash the fruit) - that they disregard the fact that bacteria (bad ones) levels on organic were much higher than non-organic. They discussed this on 20/20 or one of those news shows - tested all kinds of organic products, fresh, frozen, etc. My friend lives across the street from an organic farmer - horrible manure smells from fertiizers. Imagine what is in THAT. But I'm not saying I'd never try organic again - only that I have yet to find a supplier that comes close to the produce at Kaiser's or Tony's market.
posted by starling02 at 10:19 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
I have heard organic foods aren't that much better for you. My take is this: I don't eat fruits or vegetables, so I don't have to make that choice. :)
posted by fequalsma73 at 10:48 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
Fequalsma73, how much do your "sources" say FedEx delivery drivers make? UPS delivery drivers make about $26 per hour--I hardly think FedEx pays more than that. I went to FedEx's website and searched for the "courier" positions (from the descriptions I'm assuming that is the equivalent of a UPS delivery driver who delivers packages in a brown truck). Here's what I found in terms of the locations giving an hourly wage for a full-time opening (also, many are part-time--all of the UPS delivery drivers I know of are full-time):
1.) Santa Fe, NM - $13.52/hr
2.) Springfield, VA - $14.50/hr
posted by CollegeKid at 11:54 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 15, 2006 #
Let's say that 10 years ago a 27" TV cost $400. However, due to Wal-Mart and outsourcing, that same TV can be purchased today for $200. That means that your "real income" (in terms of
purchasing power) has increased $200!
I probably got better grades in economics than you, because I didn't forget about that little thing known as "ceteris paribus".
*YOU* forget that this assumes that one's income is the SAME (adjusting for inflation) NOW as it was 10 years ago. Unfortunately, Mall*Wart and outsourcing also means that one's pay DECREASES due to Mall*Wart's shitty wages or being unemployed or underemployed, since the person's job has gone overseas.
While it is true that the TV or surround system was not made in the US, which caused jobs to be "lost", looking at the big picture you will see that jobs have been gained.
And, of course, it creates jobs on the retail store level.
No, jobs have been offset. One TV plant moves overseas, the workers find other jobs (if lucky), including moving that box of TVs at UPS for $8/hr and selling it to you at Mall*Wart for less than that and not even 40 hours a week (34 is what Mall*Wart defines as "full time").
Someone had to design and engineer this surround sound system. Someone had to design a TV ad to sell it. Some TV station got more revenue from advertising from that commercial, allowing them to hire more people. Someone has to run the corporation selling the surround sound system.
Yeah, an engineer in India designed it. Or in Japan. Or in China. As for gains to market it or from advertising, or corporate, that's a null gain. Something else was taken off the market as obsolete (like 8-track and record players are gone now). iPods have replaced the CD Walkman, which replaced the cassette tape Walkman. Corporate jobs? Yeah, paid for by the Government of China. Want to take a stab at what brands are owned by China?
Oops. That sound was your argument being torn to shreds.
While it is true that outsourcing might hurt some workers, in the end the overall effect is good for the American economy.
Yeah, we pay $200 for a TV, and most of that $200 goes into the pockets of the Chinese, with a few cents to pay the workers who take these things from the port on the West Coast into our happy local Mall*Wart Supercenter and put them on display.
Well, they'll just have to find one of the "created" jobs!
So, you're going to be enrolling in the Mall*Wart management course, eh? Or "How to Lift Heavy Boxes 101" so you can cart 'em out to the floor? I know I know! You're going to get the special fork-truck driver's course!
posted by anonymouscoward at 12:10 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
3.) Wal-Mart and other big-box retailers make the American economy more efficient. I always laugh when a bunch of uneducated blue-collar workers gripe about how Wal-Mart is ruining the American economy. I ask all of you one question--have you ever taken a college economics class??? If not, then shut up!
--------------------------------------------
I happen to be a college graduate myself, and you can kiss my ass, punk. No one tells me what opinions to have. Somday you'll wake up and realize your college education and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee. This is the attitude I talked about earlier-blue-collar to many today means stupid, unwashed, and unclean.
posted by Darkseid at 04:05 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
FedEx doesn't employ drivers. They contract them, so I highly doubt your source. Sorry. I am going to stop on this, though because I fear another 'flame war' coming. So, you can have the last word if you'd like. :)
posted by fequalsma73 at 04:07 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
A/C--it amazes me how you know literally everything.
Anyone can make up stuff to come back at someone else's argument. You say the sky is blue. I say it is just your perception. You claim scientists say it is blue. I say you found like-minded scientists. Geesh, you know everything. Do you think you are a god? Or are you an atheist and I just offended you by asking that?
posted by fequalsma73 at 04:11 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
And that analogy by AC, as much as it pains me to say it, is dead on-NOT ONE PERSON on this board, other than he, myself, and GuestZero ever mention the fact that a BIG reason this country is in trouble is, the jobs of yesteryear (good-paying) were outsourced and replaced with 'service' jobs so many rave about-low-paying for the most part-part-time for the most part, no benefits for the most part. Ergo: Those jobs of today provide far fewer TAX DOLLARS than the ones of old did. Which is a BIG reason S.S. is shaky, Ohio and many other states are collapsing, on and on. Yep, outsourcing is fantastic, as long as you own the company, or you're a stockholder. Doesn't do much good to have that tv cheaper if you've had your job eliminated, now does it?
posted by Darkseid at 04:28 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
from "Framing the Economic Debate" by Tim Kane, Ph.D., Rea S. Hederman, and Kirk Johnson, Ph.D.
October 7, 2004
III. Outsourcing and Insourcing
*Forrester Research estimates 3.5 million outsourced jobs between 2000 and 2015. (Forrester Research)
*Over the past decade, 7.71 million jobs, on average, are lost every quarter as part of the normal flux of the economy. Forrester’s estimate would account for less than one percent of the jobs lost each quarter, on average. (Source: Department of Labor, Business Employment Dynamics Data Series; Forrester Research)
*Today, more than 5.4 million jobs in America are the result of insourcing—that is, they have been outsourced from abroad into the United States. (Source: Organization for International Investment)
*Annually, these insourced jobs account for $307 billion in wages and salaries. (Source: Organization for International Investment)
*Insourced jobs pay, on average, 19.1 percent more than the average job in the United States. (Source: Organization for International Investment)
*In the first quarter of 2004, just 4,633 workers were laid off as a result of offshore outsourcing due to mass layoffs—about 2 percent of total mass job layoffs. (Bureau of Labor Statistics, “Extended Mass Layoffs Associated With Domestic and Overseas Relocations”)
*In terms of the industries affected and positions potentially at risk, the use of outsourcing has changed little over the past five years. In other words, this is no rapidly accelerating trend. (Source: Government Accountability Office, “International Trade: Current Government Data Provide Limited Insight into Offshoring of Services”)
*The United States exports more business, technical, and professional services than it imports (and offshore outsourcing of service work is synonymous with importing those services). In 2003, the trade surplus for these services was $27.0 billion. (Source: Bureau of Economic Analysis, “Survey of Current Business”)
posted by MaggieThurber at 07:31 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
I always laugh when a bunch of uneducated blue-collar workers gripe about how Wal-Mart is ruining the American economy. I ask all of you one question--have you ever taken a college economics class??? If not, then shut up!
WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? WHO THE HELL GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO CALL BLUE COLLER WORKERS UN-EDUCATED. YOU MUST OF BEEN ONE OF THOSE SPOILED LITTLE RICH KIDS WITH A SILVER SPOON STUCK UP YOUR ASS RIGHT?
YOU MUST NOT PAY MUCH ATTENTION BECASUE IF YOU DID YOU WOULD REALIZE THAT MOST OF US ON THIS BOARD ARE VERY MUCH COLLEGE EDUCATED.
SO AS DARK SAID "KISS MY ASS, PUNK!"
posted by tm at 07:54 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
I laugh when I hear people say WalMart workers are underpaid. My wife is an educator and has her bachelor's degree. She only makes $.50 more per hour than a WalMart employee. Take into account that she falls under my health coverage and does not recieve any through her work because she hasn't been there 5 years and they usurp that $.50 per hour.
Now my wife doesn't mind her pay because as she always says "I didn't choose this profession to get rich"
posted by MikeyA at 08:41 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
I think that's what's interesting about the change of the American Dream. Politicians are quick to tell you that this generation is the first to not be better off than the previous generation. That's true if you look at straight salaries but I'd defy that money is the only factor in the American Dream.
Take my family for instance. My brothers and I all make less than my father. But I'd venture to say that we are better off than our father was at our age. We are better educated. My father was already married at the age of 23, I wasn't even engaged until I was 26 and my brothers are still single. My father's early life was that of struggling to pay bills every month. While I do have a budget I feel very comfortable within it. Plus I'd say my overall stress level is low. My wife and I chose our professions for the emotional rewards rather than economic ones. So yes we do have less money but I'd argue that we are happier.
posted by MikeyA at 08:47 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
At Jeep we have lots of "college kids", they are in supervision.
Many of them share a very similar trait, they are arrogant little twits who think they are some kind of genious.
I'll be the first to admit they have lots of "book learning", however almost all of them sorely lack common sense, and problem solving skills.
posted by JeepMaker at 02:26 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
My wife is an educator and has her bachelor's degree. She only makes $.50 more per hour than a WalMart employee. Take into account that she falls under my health coverage and does not recieve any through her work because she hasn't been there 5 years and they usurp that $.50 per hour.
Dang! Is she in a union??
posted by billy at 02:58 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
Fequalsma73: My source is FedEx.com. That's where I got those figures. If you don't believe the numbers, go to their web site, click on the career link, and search for "courier" positions across the US.
AnonymousCoward:
1.) I got an A- in macroeconomics, and an A in microeconomics. How does that compare to you? If you got A's in both, then you did indeed get better economics grades than I did.
2.) Yes, I am aware of what "ceteris paribus" means. It means "all other things being equal". And yes, you are correct in that wages have changed over the past 10 years. However, wages have gone up (for the vast majority of Americans) over the past ten years--yet the price of goods that have been outsourced and "Wal-Mart-ized" have either stayed the same or fallen. If wages go up 30% over 10 years, and the price of TVs falls 50%, then real income (regarding TVs) has gone up!
3.) If the lost jobs have been "offset" by new jobs, then what's the big deal? Just because a job isn't at a factory with a smokestack doesn't mean that it's not a "worthy" job!
4.) If a customer now has $200 more to spend than they would have had without outsourcing, they are not having to sacrifice an 8-track player or anything like that to buy the surround sound system. They are purchasing MORE electronics--not simply different electronics.
5.) If the workers at Wal-Mart were worth more than $7.50/hour, then they would be able to find a job that pays more than $7.50/hour! When I graduate from college, I am going to make what my degree is worth. If all that the market will bear me to make is 30k, then that's all I'll make! I might love to make 50k, but if I'm only worth 30k, then that's all I'll make. What unions do if force employers to pay employees (generally speaking) more than what the market will bear. Yes, it's sad that the Delphi workers got their pay cut from $27/hour to $16.50/hour. But the fact of the matter is that if they are worth more than $16.50/hour, an employer will be willing to pay them more than $16.50/hour. If they are worth $20/hour, then (assuming they are a hard worker) they will be able to find a job at Honda in Marysville, or BMW in South Carolina, or Toyota in Kentucky, or Hyundai in Alabama, that pays $20/hour! While I wouldn't like my dad getting his pay cut $10/hour, $16.50/hour would be better than nothing. That's what so many people don't understand! If (and I'm just using this as an example) Delphi didn't cut their worker's wages, then they would have to charge GM more. If GM has to pay more to make the car, then the consumer must pay more to buy the car. If the consumer must pay more to buy the car, then it is likely that he/she will buy another car that is cheaper (like a Hyundai). If GM's car sales decline, then they don't buy as many parts from Delphi. If Delphi's sales go down, then they have to lay off people (since heaven-forbid a union person ever permanently loses his/her job!). If they lay off people, then you have people making $0/hour instead of $16.50. If they are laid-off temporarily, instead of packing their bags and moving to Alabama, they will most likely stick around here, picking up an $8/hour job at Wal-Mart and hoping things turn around. Like I said in my last post--it's not the responsibility of corporate America or the government to ensure that every American that wants a factory job can get one!
TM: No, I'm not some spoiled rich kid!!! My dad's a member of a labor union!!! In fact, I've even been in the union hall of the Teamsters Local 20 in Toledo!!! I also come from a more educated "union" family, too. Even my dad will reluctantly admit that job protectionism doesn't work, and our family regularly shops at Wal-Mart.
Everyone: I want to pose a simple hypothetical question, and I want everyone to answer honestly! Let's say your 27" TV in your living room broke down today, and you wanted to replace it tonight! There are two TV's for sale. And, btw, you get off work at 5:00.
1.) One TV is a 27" JVC sold at Bernie's Electronics. Bernie's been in business for 28 years. He has 3 full-time (40 hours/week) staff people that receive excellent benefits considering the fact that Bernie's is a small mom-and-pop electronics store. Bernie's JVC was made over in Benton Harbor, Michigan, by good, old-fashioned, flag-waving, union workers making $22/hour. However, Bernie's 27" JVC costs $399. Also, because Bernie wants his full-time employees to be able to eat dinner with their families, he closes at 6:00, so you have to get over there quickly after getting off work.
2.) The other TV is a 27" JVC identical to the one for sale at Bernie's, only this one's for sale at Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart just moved into it's new store 3 years ago, and since then several smaller stores in the area have had to go out of business. Unlike Bernie's JVC, Wal-Mart's 27" JVC had it's parts made in China by workers making $1.25/hour, and was assembled in Mexico by workers in a border town making $2.75/hour. If you go to Wal-Mart, you will be greeted at the door by a 68 year-old man who had to take early retirement because the factory he worked at moved to Mexico. Because he had to take early retirement, he had to take the job at Wal-Mart because he can't live on his $400/month pension, Social Security, and minimal retirement savings. In the electronics department you will be helped by an 19 year old girl studying English at UT, working part-time at Wal-Mart to help pay her tuition. Then you will be checked out by a 34 year-old single "welfare mom" working 32 hours/week, making $7.75/hour after 3 years of working there, and she still doesn't have any medical insurance. However, the 27" JVC at Wal-Mart just got a price rollback from $198.86 to $187.78! And, Wal-Mart is open 24 hours a day (since they are so large), so you can go there after having dinner with your family.
Now, which TV would you buy??? If this were a real-life decision, I'm convinced (as is demonstrated by Wal-Mart's success) that most people would buy the TV at Wal-Mart--like it or not.
posted by CollegeKid at 03:02 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
JeepMaker: "At Jeep we have lots of 'college kids', they are in supervision. Many of them share a very similar trait, they are arrogant little twits who think they are some kind of genious. I'll be the first to admit they have lots of 'book learning', however almost all of them sorely lack common sense, and problem solving skills."
Well, the fact of the matter is that, like it or not, "book learing" pays more than "common sense". While it's true that I'd never survive a job at a factory, I can make more as an accountant. If that means that I lack "common sense" (in the mechanical sense of things), then so be it! However, I believe that, while blue-collar workers might have more "common sense", white-collar workers have more "problem-solving skills". Who do you think has more problem solving skills--the big-cheeses at GM who are trying to figure out how to rescue a dying company, or the person on the assembly line trying to figure out a more efficient way of installing the AC on the car?
Plus, if all us rich businesspeople don't have any common sense, that will mean there will always be a job for people like you who have common sense!
posted by CollegeKid at 03:10 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
However, wages have gone up (for the vast majority of Americans) over the past ten years--yet the price of goods that have been outsourced and "Wal-Mart-ized" have either stayed the same or fallen. If wages go up 30% over 10 years, and the price of TVs falls 50%, then real income (regarding TVs) has gone up!
Purchasing power of the minimum wage is at a 50+ year low. The real value of the dollar has gone down. Not to mention how we're buying from China and the USA-China exchange rate (which, last I knew, was fixed, not variable, by order of the Commie government). Have wage increases kept pace with inflation?
Wow, look at that downward trend in wages and compensation. Wow, look at how inflation's spiking and has gone above the growth in wages and compensation.
Really odd that you want to claim that wages have gone up. I definitely know one place that's paying the same now as it did ten years ago, for the same position. Admission's gone up at Cedar Point (except for the cuts this year) yet they've paid 6 and a quarter for the last few years.
If the workers at Wal-Mart were worth more than $7.50/hour, then they would be able to find a job that pays more than $7.50/hour!
Per salary.com I'm worth ~$15/hr. Haven't been able to LAND a job for that, though. So don't give me shit about how they'd be able to find a job if the jobs they're qualified for are now overseas.
had it's parts
I'd expect a college kid to know that possessive "its" has no apostrophe. Do I need to bring Bob the Angry Flower in here?
If you go to Wal-Mart, you will be greeted at the door by a 68 year-old man who had to take early retirement because the factory he worked at moved to Mexico.
Who is now on Medicare, paid for by our taxes, since he didn't get enough out of his pension to pay for his medications and Social Security, also out of our taxes.
Then you will be checked out by a 34 year-old single "welfare mom" working 32 hours/week, making $7.75/hour after 3 years of working there, and she still doesn't have any medical insurance.
But she and her kids are Medicaid recipients, per Mall*Wart's helpful instructions on how to apply for state benefits. Plus her kids qualify for reduced price school lunches, and daycare and so on, because she works the prime time rush hours (2pm-7pm) in the store.
posted by anonymouscoward at 03:43 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
College kid, it is your so-call superior attitude that people dont like, if you dont think your attitude is superior acting re-read your posts.
secondly, as for the 27 in tv, i wouldn't go to either place. i would go to abc warehouse and haggle with a sales clerk.
posted by tm at 04:41 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
AnonymousCoward:
1.) The minimum wage has not been increased in proportion to average wages. It does not surprise me that the purchasing power of the minimum wage is at a 50 year low. However, most "minimum wage" jobs pay $6.00-$7.00 per hour, not $5.15.
2.) In your chart, what is the difference between "compensation" and "wage & salary"? Except for the past few quarters, compensation increases have outpaced inflation according to that chart. And I'm sure that the majority of that increased inflation regards the recent surge in energy prices. Also, just to clarify, I was referring only to the prices of items which can be outsourced. Almost all of the things that have gone up recently either involve the price of the commodities going up (gasoline, natural gas, tires, etc) or services (hair cuts, cleaning services, hotels, restaurants, Cedar Point, etc). I am dealing simply with things that can be outsourced (manufacturing primarily, but also some other business services).
3.) Have you looked for that $15/hour job outside the Toledo area? Sometimes you have to be willing to move to get the job you need. I firmly believe that, assuming you have all the basic good qualities employers are looking for (relevant education and experience, you don't job-hop, you're punctual, you have good communication skills) that you could find a job in your field paying $15/hour within a 300 mile radius of Toledo, assuming that you aren't referring to manufacturing. You might need to move a little farther south for that industry (such as to a right-to-work state). All I know is my personal experience. I'm graduating from college next year with a degree in accounting, and I've already accepted a job offer in the Toledo area. The salary for my job falls between the median and 75th percentile on Salary.com for a person in my field with a bachelor's degree (which I will have) and 0-2 years of experience (of which I have only a summer internship). And if I couldn't find a job in the Toledo area paying what I am worth, I'd move somewhere else (Detroit, Columbus, Cleveland, Chicago--anywhere east of the Mississippi). And, by the way, even some accounting stuff is outsourced to India. Yet, in spite of this, accounting majors are in such demand that they will offer you a job a year or two before you even graduate!
4.) Yes, I understand the basic rules of grammar. I apologize for my typo. I'll try to be more careful next time.
TM:
1.) When I know I'm right, I'm not afraid to voice the truth.
2.) Let me throw you a question that will answer my hypothetical question. Let's say ABC Warehouse sells both JVC TVs--the one made in Benton Harbor, MI, by union boys making $22/hour; and the one with parts made in China by workers being paid $1.25/hour, and assembled in Mexico by workers being paid $2.75/hour. Hang-tag on the one made in the USA is $399. Hang-tag on the one made in China and assembled in Mexico is $199. You barter with the salesman and he agrees to give you 10% off on the TV of your choice--a deal which beats any other store in town. So, would you pay $359 for the one made here in the USA, or $179 for the one made with foreign hands??? I want to know which one you would buy!!!
posted by CollegeKid at 06:31 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
Coward, if you worked at that big ol Walmart there next to Cheese Haven, would you make more than you are now??
posted by billy at 06:31 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
TM hit it right on the money with the comment on the superior attitude. Did everybody catch this?
Plus, if all us rich businesspeople
Pretty presumptuous on his part, eh? He thinks because he has that college degree, why, of course, he's destined to become rich.
posted by Darkseid at 07:10 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
Coward, if you worked at that big ol Walmart there next to Cheese Haven, would you make more than you are now??
I love the Cheese Haven!!! Is that where you work A/C?
posted by fequalsma73 at 07:43 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
College kid, it is your so-call superior attitude that people dont like
collegekid, i like your attitude. others don't like it because you don't seem to put up with their constant ranting and bull.
posted by wholesaler1972 at 11:44 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 16, 2006 #
billy, if your mom got a boob job, would she get more on the streetcorner than she is now?
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:37 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
A/C--do you get an employee discount at the Cheese Haven?
posted by fequalsma73 at 02:41 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
Well, everybody, a "Price Pirate" like Wal*Mart always looks like a great and wonderful thing when you're pullin' down some serious large. The average Toledoan is not so lucky, and is starting to face the much harsher economic facts which are seldom taught in university (and when they are, they are glossed over): When you lose your job, any expense becomes economically fatal. In that mode, a TV is unaffordable no matter how cheap a discounter underprices it.
CollegeKid and his ilk are merely being indoctrinated in the Imperial system of economic globalism. Since they are slated to occupy certain positions in the Empire, it's only natural for them to think the Imperial exploitation system is of great benefit since it is (and will be) of great benefit to them personally. The reality of this situation largely tends to strike only once their vassal sector is targeted in the next round of exploitation. Then they join the ranks of the other "sad sacks" who had been economically raped by the Imperial system.
In the cultural present, I'm hearing serious sentiments that express that a Bachelor's degree is the modern equivalent to the high school diploma of old. This just means that workers are being forced to become heavily-indebted and workforce-delayed students in order to find prosperity in line with perfectly rational First World expectations -- home, car, wife, kids, vacations, and a few toys. This assumption of the student role is unfortunately concurrent with debts which have no precedent. Anyone can google-up the problems with loading Bachelor's students up with so much debt; more articles are appearing on this topic all the time as the full extent of the crisis becomes apparent.
Yet it won't end there since too many B-level workers are assuming jobs which only require HS-level education. In short, their $20K-$60K debt loads (note: leveraged, so don't forget to add that unnecessary added expense of interest!) were a wasted effort, and they are only occupying jobs in great danger of being offshored, outsourced, and otherwise made redundant as Corporate America's fatal cost-cutting fad proceeds apace.
In conclusion: CollegeKid, the last thing ToledoTalk needs is yet another yuppie singing the praises of the warfare-welfare Imperial system that will turn on us all eventually, and when I say "us" note that that includes YOU. Un- and under-employment is now spreading like flu through the ranks of the B-levels and white collars, and that includes YOU. Superqualification will consume YOU eventually. I made serious large, too, when I was in my 20s and was taking the jobs of all the older guys ... as well as undermining their mortgages and other family obligations. Now as I teeter upon age 40, I'm watching the same thing undermine my position -- except earlier and more pervasively as globalist acceleration demands. Point blank: It's not worth spending $30K (leveraged!) for a 4yr education just to have an 8yr career. If you don't see this now, then you're nowhere near as bright as you think you are, which only guarantees your fate.
P.S. To answer CollegeKid's faux rhetorical question about TV comparison shopping, I must call his attention to all the other answers he avoided: 1) Do without a TV. 2) Borrow a friend's extra TV. 3) Take a toss-out TV and have it repaired. I've done all 3 of these options. BUT ... what's really important is to note the fundamental truth to his question: There are no American-made TVs. Curtis Mathis, RCA, Philips, Zenith and the rest had long ago decided to play along with the ruinous game of globalist acceleration. Instead of managing market change by finding niches to occupy once the mainstream became commoditized, they opted to either continue the fraud of "constant growth" or to bankrupt.
posted by GuestZero at 02:58 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
The Sylvania brand (owned by German Siemens) has 16 out of its 25 manufacturing plants located in the USA. They make TVs and are pretty good quality from what I have seen. It is the only brand a friend of mine buys. Plus, they are cheap compared to most other brands. Siemens does have an office in Ohio, but no manufacturing. Since they do manufacture in the US, that would be a good company for Toledo to attract to town. More jobs for the unions bums!
posted by fequalsma73 at 03:31 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
College kid not many have answered your question.
I buy the cheaper t.v. because if it lasts 24 months and the other t.v. with it's superior quality lasts 36 months I've still spent the same ammount on t.v's in a three year period but I recieved a quality t.v. for 4 years of that time.
I remember when American Made meant "quality" and if a family bought a t.v. they owned it for 20+ years. Now people own their t.v. for I'd say on average 5 years and I'd argue that American Made doesn't always stand for quality.
posted by MikeyA at 07:20 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
Now people own their t.v. for I'd say on average 5 years
I would attribute that to accelerated advances in technology. The 'new, cool thing' comes out more often. I personally watch most of my TV on a 13 incher with one bad corner that has discoloration in the picture. It is at least 10 years old. I could go buy a new one, but if this one still works, why spend the cash? I think people own their TVs for much longer than 5 years, but they get put into another room of the house and a newer, bigger, 'better' one is purchased for the family room. So, we are buying more TVs, but aren't getting rid of the old ones. We have it so rough here in the US of A!
posted by fequalsma73 at 08:14 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
In short, their $20K-$60K debt loads
And those are for publics. Testimony: Friend’s kid, private university, U of Miami -$120,000 so far. Academic Status: Junior!
posted by Offshore at 10:31 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
If Delphi's sales go down, then they have to lay off people (since heaven-forbid a union person ever permanently loses his/her job!).
I wonder how much more money they could have saved by laying off some of thier management instead of the people who do the acual work. (and dont give me any crap about how managers are needed, because i know they're needed, but you dont need 3 managers for 1 department)
posted by tm at 11:09 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
At Jeep we have lots of "college kids", they are in supervision.
As soon as I read this sentence my first thought was, ‘Who watches them?’ When I was very young I was forced into a management role, and the first thing I did was find the oldest team member and ask him what I should be doing. I started learning, and by the end of the first year I managed to earn myself some respect. It wasn’t easy.
5.) If the workers at Wal-Mart were worth more than $7.50/hour, then they would be able to find a job that pays more than $7.50/hour! When I graduate from college, I am going to make what my degree is worth.
If only. You won’t make ‘what your degree is worth’. You’ll likely make a good deal less. The reason is that people tend to make what they as individuals are worth.
What you’ve avoided in your lectures is a definition of the desirable economic scenario in the United States. In this case, the manufacturer will turn out a popular necessity using local resources and labor. The factory is in the US and employs US citizens. Raw materials are purchased from US sources or are owned outright by the manufacturer, although it’s slightly preferable that raw materials be purchased. The finished product is sold to various proprietorships (no chains or franchises) throughout the US, and transport is provided by US owned and operated companies. The product must be priced such that the employees of this company can afford to buy it if they like. The difference in wages between management and labor of the company must not vary by more than a factor of five. This product can be exported to various other countries and sold there, and the money made will be brought back to the US. This will be one of many similar factories, all operating in the same economic fashion. If the stock is sold publicly, it will be a real dog, going up a very little bit each year.
The reason why this is desirable is easy for you to see, but I’ll explain anyway. The company keeps wealth inside the US. The velocity of money, that is, the number of times a dollar is spent before coming to rest, will be high. Growth will be slow, which is also a very good thing. Given enough of these companies, the economy will tend to be stable and predictable, which allows for much more economic planning than exists now.
In the outsourcing scenario, the company cuts manufacturing costs by moving the plant to a location where costs are cheap. This can be labor costs, raw materials or general manufacturing costs (pollution laws, etc.). This drastic reduction in costs makes the stock price surge, management salaries rise to an astronomical level and takes money away from the US and from circulation. Add to that the cost of retraining and relocating the unemployed labor force which is absorbed by the general public, and the entire middle class economy takes a hit.
And, while I’m at it, my thanks and a tip of the martini glass to GZ, AC and others I’m too tired to name for their excellent contributions.
posted by madjack at 11:22 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
I have one question for everyone who thinks that Wal-Mart and outsourcing is bad for America:
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the Wal-Mart effect of job outsourcing is really bad for America in the long run. What should be done to stop this "problem"??? Should Wal-Mart be broken up like Standard Oil was? Should companies be required to produce a certain percentage of their goods here in the US? Should we make a federal law that overrides all right-to-work laws in other states so that auto companies don't have a reason to move to the South? Should the government cap the pay of CEOs? Should the government force all companies with more than 50 employees to make at least half of their employees full-time, requiring them to provide pensions and full medical benefits to these full-time employees? What is everyone's solution???
It's one thing to gripe and complain about how all the jobs are leaving the US and how Wal-Mart is ruining America. It's quite another thing to develop an intelligent solution to solve this so-called "problem".
My basic point is that capitalism has provided American with prosperity for the past 230 years. Today, the US is an economic leader in the world. Why should we change things?
Plus, this is not the only "transition time" in America's economic history. There was also a time where many people were no longer able to make ends meat farming. When technology allowed farmers to farm more land themselves, many farmers lost their jobs. Because crops could be harvested cheaper using technology, many family farms had to close. Yes, it was sad to see families having to move North to take factory jobs (such as happened in Grisham's "A Painted House"). Yes, there were problems in the cities due to this migration and job shifting. Young children were working 12 hours days at factories, with parents working even longer. Disease was rampant throughout many major cities. But, looking back on the situation, it was good for America. Would anyone today say that we as a country would be better off if 80% of people were still employed in agriculture? Now, our country is undergoing another shift--a shift from manufacturing to service jobs. Yes, there are sad stories about the Levi plant in Powell, TN, that closed. Yes, it's sad when people at the Jeep plant get laid off. But, looking back on the situation 50 years from now, I believe America will be better having made that transition. Capitalism's worked for 230 years--I don't see any reason to change it now. Job protectionism is not in the spirit of capitalism. I'm sure that 100 years ago there were people just like the people on here who were resistent to change. They liked their life on the family farm. They didn't like the fact that they couldn't sell their crops for as much as they used to. They didn't want to have to change careers. But, in the end, had the people resistent to change won out, would America be the great economic superpower it is today??? I don't think so!!!
posted by CollegeKid at 02:09 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
personally watch most of my TV on a 13 incher with one bad corner that has discoloration in the picture.
I could tell you why that is and how to fix it, but you've pissed me off too much.
posted by anonymouscoward at 03:03 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
There was also a time where many people were no longer able to make ends meat farming.
"Make ends meat farming"? Is that like growing rump roast and pigs' feet in a field or a vat or something?
Funny that you should mention farming. Let's hear you roundly and soundly denounce the farm subsidies that exist to protect American farming. You know, the stuff that causes High Fructose Corn Syrup to be in everything instead of imported cane sugar. The subsidies that are resulting in ethanol made from corn instead of something more efficient. I mean, it's just another form of job protectionism, or more accurately CORPORATE WELFARE for the likes of ADM. Just like Medicaid and all those low-income programs and are CORPORATE WELFARE for Mall*Wart. Just like the tax breaks they get for creating maybe a few hundred jobs... never mind that within a few years they've killed off a few hundred other jobs.
posted by anonymouscoward at 03:13 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
Young children were working 12 hours days at factories, with parents working even longer. Disease was rampant throughout many major cities. But, looking back on the situation, it was good for America.
It was just a little hard on the people, is all. But then, I guess that's what the hoi ploi is for.
Lord rebuke you, for I will not.
posted by madjack at 04:41 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
I could tell you why that is and how to fix it, but you've pissed me off too much.
I don't want it 'fixed'. It's not like I don't have other TVs to watch.
posted by fequalsma73 at 08:16 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 17, 2006 #
So, nobody is going to answer either of my two simple questions?
1.) Which TV would you buy if you had to buy a TV--the cheaper one made in China and Mexico, or the more expensive on made here in the USA?
2.) What should be done to stop the "Wal-Mart problem" of Wal-Mart and job outsourcing?
The difference between people who are successful and people who are not successful is that people who are successful see a problem and propose a workable solution. People who are not successful see a problem and simply complain about it.
posted by CollegeKid at 11:42 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 18, 2006 #
I'd answer the second question, except that you've already claimed that any kind of regulation is not a solution, so it'd be pointless to say anything. The problem will take care of itself given enough time, right about when America ends up as a pile of poor ruled by a select few ultra-rich, and someone leads the Second American Revolution to straighten things out.
posted by anonymouscoward at 11:59 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 18, 2006 #
Collegebrat if you would notice, i beleive madjack and a few other people have answered your questions. I think you simply chose to ignore them because they weren't quite the answers you were seeking, but they were answered none the less.
posted by tm at 11:59 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 18, 2006 #
In fact, I've even been in the union hall of the Teamsters Local 20 in Toledo!!!
Oh man now im really impressed!
posted by tm at 12:10 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 18, 2006 #
1.) Which TV would you buy if you had to buy a TV--the cheaper one made in China and Mexico, or the more expensive on made here in the USA?
Cheaper one if the domestic one was made with union labor. Otherwise, the domestic one.
posted by fequalsma73 at 12:16 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 18, 2006 #
Cheaper one if the domestic one was made with union labor. Otherwise, the domestic one.
Fequal, im going to picket your house for that one. lol 8-)
posted by tm at 12:32 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 18, 2006 #
lol I'll turn the sprinklers on ya!
posted by fequalsma73 at 03:10 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 18, 2006 #
Okay, I read MadJack's post on his solution. I'm not sure who you're referring to when you say "and others", so you'll have to be more specific if you want me to address their arguments.
Madjack's post provided a scenario of a utopian society in which everyone has a good-paying job and everyone's basic needs are met, and nobody is "too" rich. Ok, I have a few questions.
1.) How do you plan to get companies to purchase only US goods, and manufacture the final goods here in the US? There are only three solutions I can think of to get companies to produce all goods in the US. Right now, if it were more profitable for companies to produce a given good in the US instead of abroad, the profit motive of corporations would have them produce it here in the US. So, to implement your solution you must provide a reason for companies to produce all goods here in the US. First of all, the US could pass a law stating that all goods sold in the US have to be manufactured in the US, and all components of those goods have to be manufactured in the US. Second, the US could give economic incentives (tax credits, subsidies, etc) to companies who produce goods in the US so that in every instance it is more profitable for companies to produce goods in the US than abroad. Third, the US could heavily penalize companies for manufacturing goods abroad (in the form of fines, penalties, extra income taxes, tariffs, etc) to make it unprofitable for goods to be manufactured overseas. These are the only ways I can think of to practically implement your plan. The first method would drive up prices (because forcing companies to do something they are not already doing--something more expensive--drives up prices). The second method would result in less tax revenue (meaning that either other taxes would have to be increased or federal expenditures cut). The third method would accomplish the same as the first--driving up prices.
2.) If every product has to be sold to proprietorships, then the price of goods will increase, due to decreased efficiency. Face it--Wal-Mart can sell goods more efficiently than a small store. If you had 10 small mom-and-pop stores instead of every Wal-Mart, there would have to be 10 marketing strategies developed instead of just one. There would have to be 10 sets of books accounted for instead of just one. There would have to be 10 business plans instead of just one. This increased overhead makes the cost of the goods more expensive. Plus, it will decrease tax revenue. Currently, for corporations the income tax rate is basically 35% (it's technically a graduated tax rate like the individual income tax rates, but since the tax rates for corporate income is about 35% for dollars earned over $75,000, it's effectively 35%). Then, if the corporation declares a dividend, the individual receiving the dividend must pay a 15% tax on the dividends received (5% if the dividend income, if ordiary income, would be in the 10% or 15% marginal tax bracket--but since we'll assume most people owning Wal-Mart stock are rich, arrogant, fat-cats, we'll say the rate's 15%). So, on every dollar of profit Wal-Mart makes, 35% goes to Uncle Sam, plus 15% of any dividends paid to stockholders. If there were no Wal-Mart, but instead just a bunch of small proprietorships, tax revenue would decrease. First of all, the decresed efficiency of the proprietorships would result in a decreased tax base (since the taxable base is essentially gross profit less expenses). Then, this new tax base would be taxed at lower rates. See, most small businesses are not corporations--they are sole proprietorships or partnerships. Both result in the income from the business being taxed on the individual level. Let's compare two situations. Let's say the new Wal-Mart store in Holland will bring in $5 million dollars of taxable income for Wal-Mart, and they distribution 10% of their income in dividends. The tax on that is basically $1,825,000 ($5 million x 35% plus $500,000 x 15%). Let's say that, under MadJack's plan, there were 10 "proprietorships" instead, each partnership equally owned by 5 people. That means that each partnership ("proprietorship") would have $500,000 in taxable income, divided among 5 people--meaning that $100,000 of taxable income flows through to each owner. Let's say for argument's sake, that each owner also has $100,000 of taxable income (after their deductions) from their salary, and they are single (being married results in even less tax revenue)--after all, we don't want to "overpay" the executives. The total tax revenue received by Uncle Sam from those 10 stores is $1,524,650 ($50,150 x 28% plus $49,850 x 33% for each person). That would result in a tax revenue decrease of about 16.5% on the federal level, not counting the loss from the decreased efficiency.
3.) With this increased cost in the price of goods (and the increase in taxes to cover the lost tax revenue), how can you be so sure that Americans will be able to afford to buy these goods?
4.) If we aren't buying anything from any other countries, why should they buy any goods from us?
5.) You want to make sure that the difference between the salaries of "management" and "labor" is not more than a factor of five. What does "management" include. Does this include all management, or just the executive management? Also, are you saying that the highest management salary should not be more than five times that of the lowest paid worker in the company? Are you saying that the highest management salary should not be more than five times the average wage of all the non-management workers combined? Could you clarify this? Also, wouldn't this allow the CEOs of greedy oil companies to continue to get fat paychecks since there are many non-managment engineering jobs at oil companies that pay quite handsomely? Or hospitals--wouldn't the CEO of a group of hospitals be permitted to make an excessive amount of money since there are many well-paid but non-management physicians and surgeons? Plus, what's going to keep CEOs at companies where they can't make as much money because they have a high percentage of unskilled workers influencing their pay cap, from going to the oil companies and hospital groups? Also, what about partnerships--are we saying that the individual's share of the profit can't be more than 5 times the non-management salary, or just that their cash distribution can't be more than that number? Also, who is going to enforce this new law?
Those are just a few of the thoughts that croseed my mind when reading MadJack's post. But I do have to give him credit--at least he proposed a solution (even though he left out how he would enforce this solution).
posted by CollegeKid at 03:15 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 18, 2006 #
Part of the solution is that governments have to return to exercising the natural rights they have under sovereignty. Part and parcel to those rights is the right to tariff. Since modern governments are completely corrupted by globalism and corporate wealth (i.e. "neo-liberalism"), this not only isn't happening, but staggeringly enough, it's not even legal to tariff -- under all the trade agreements which are effectively treaties.
The obscenity that is Wal*Mart (among other entities and methods) is only possible due to the vast difference between cheap foreign labor and expensive domestic wealth (as well as the availability of cheap oil -- a period of history which is positively OVER). As Americans spend themselves poor -- and post-"the credit bubble" -- the Wal*Mart Effect will wane and finally fade on its own. However, that's too harsh to retain a First World stable culture, which is why America flirts so heavily with Fascism as it is. The proper exercise of tariffs should have ended the Effect already, if it weren't for the travesty of corporate-dominated trade agreements.
Before Americans make themselves into the best educated Third World populace in history, one hopes that through discourse (like this website) they will wise up and make better choices in their finances other than (1) what makes them the most money and (2) what gets them the most stuff for each dollar. Chasing money and monetizing desires have produced a profoundly perverse culture.
posted by GuestZero at 10:06 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 18, 2006 #
Before Americans make themselves into the best educated Third World populace in history, one hopes that through discourse (like this website) they will wise up and make better choices in their finances other than (1) what makes them the most money and (2) what gets them the most stuff for each dollar. Chasing money and monetizing desires have produced a profoundly perverse culture.
I'm not holding my breath. My only real hope is that I'm dead and long gone to dust by the time the US smacks bottom hard enough to produce the minimum necessary change to reverse this trend.
BTW, I didn't propose a solution; I proposed an ideal scenario. There's a difference.
You know, this guy is starting to sound a lot like LimeDrops.
posted by madjack at 09:48 A.M. EST on Sat Aug 19, 2006 #
MadJack:
Part of my post was aimed at TM, who said that you "answered my question" (which asked for a solution). I agree with you that you were simply posting an "ideal scenario". However, I would like to know how you think America should achieve this "ideal scenario"! Just curious.
posted by CollegeKid at 11:27 A.M. EST on Sat Aug 19, 2006 #
Part of my post was aimed at TM, who said that you "answered my question" (which asked for a solution). I agree with you that you were simply posting an "ideal scenario". However, I would like to know how you think America should achieve this "ideal scenario"! Just curious.
I probably should have inferred that from the context of your post.
Well, CollegeKid, I'm a poor choice for that particular question. I suggest that you ask GuestZero for a few ideas. You might also ask GZ if he agrees with my scenario - he may not.
posted by madjack at 10:06 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 21, 2006 #
lol I'll turn the sprinklers on ya!
Just make sure you dont forget the martini's! 8-)
posted by tm at 02:04 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 21, 2006 #
July 2006 Brookings Institute article:
"More than one-third of the nation's loss of manufacturing jobs between 2000 and 2005 occurred in seven Great Lakes states: Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin."
"Between 1995 and 2005, the United States lost more than 3 million manufacturing jobs. Nearly all of this job loss occurred during the last five years, and 37.5 percentof the loss occurred in the seven Great Lakes states. Michigan lost the most manufacturing jobs between 2000 and 2005 (nearly 218,000), followed by Ohio, Illinois, and Pennsylvania."
"Despite these job losses, manufacturing remains a major driver of the nation's economy and the economy of the Great Lakes region."
"All but one of the 25 largest manufacturing-dependent metropolitan areas in the Great Lakes region lost manufacturing jobs during the last decade (1995-2005), often at a faster rate than the United States as a whole. Chicago and Detroit lost the most manufacturing jobs in the last five years (over 100,000 jobs each), while Canton, OH, and Flint, MI, lost the greatest shares of manufacturing employment."
"Manufacturing job losses were a major reason for slow overall job growth, and sometimes overall job losses, in Great Lakes metropolitan areas. Furthermore, employment gains in high-wage advanced service industries, which occurred in all but one of the 25 metropolitan areas studied, were not large enough to offset the loss of manufacturing jobs in most areas."
Toledo report - PDF file.
"Total employment in metropolitan Toledo increased steadily until its peak in 2000. Sharp declines during and after the 2001 recession left total employment below its 1997 level. The region gained 24,300 jobs (an increase of 7.5 percent) from 1995 through 2000, but from 2000 through 2005 total employment fell by 16,300 jobs (4.7 percent). Consequently, over the entire 1995– 2005 period, total employment in the region increased by only 2.5 percent (8,000 jobs)."
posted by jr at 12:20 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
Syndicate ToledoTalk
