My husband and I stopped by there a few days ago after being in Toledo for a dr. appt, and we wanted to have breakfast and a coffee...and we were so suprised to see it still all closed up! We have strolled through the antique place before and like all the other vendors, it will be sadly missed.
posted by lalaland at 10:35 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 24, 2006 #
Fred was on the subject of ESM this morning. He wants it closed because it's a failed venture. While I do love the ESM I have to agree that it might be worth cutting our losses.
The problem is what do we put in to replace it? My suggestion would be an upscale bowling alley. It fits with the bars and sports of the area and doesn't have much competition of the immediate area. Plus it could be something the local hotels could tout as a local attraction when visitors ask "What is there to do around here?"
posted by MikeyA at 11:08 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 24, 2006 #
Quite frankly, I feel the problem is not the facility itself but rather the shrinking of Toledo's downtown. Sixty years ago downtown Toledo was twice the size it is now. The Civic Auditorium, as it was then called, was a nice venue for events such as annual home & garden shows, auto shows, boxing matches, etc. People went there by mass transit i.e. bus/street car.
Fast-forward to 1960. Many have cars now. Up go the parking garages and the city creates those annoying one-way streets to minimize fender-benders. Local motorists must etch a map of the area into their minds in order to feel at ease. Out-of-town motorists? Zowie! One trip to the area is enough to put them into the realm of disgust and repudiation.
Accessibilty to the ESM is convenient if you exit northbound I-75 at Erie and Lafayette. Upon leaving, if one wants to get back on I-75, the nearest on-ramp is a mile away at Washington and 14th to go north, or Washington and Michigan (closer) to go south. The ESM is tucked into a pocket that's enclosed by I-75, Swan Creek, and some soot coated warehouses that date back to the Canal Days.
City planners and developers have their work cut out for them but the main obstacle, as usual, is budget and funding.
posted by flinty at 11:56 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 24, 2006 #
Who was the moron who initially thought that a municipality had any right or ability to run a retail outlet? Where are the free-market and privatization fundies when we really need them?
posted by GuestZero at 12:41 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 24, 2006 #
This is sad. It was a great idea - but I had a bad feeling when they just went in and told everybody to move out/close their businesses with almost no notice for renovations.
Couldn't this be turned over to private interests?
posted by katie82640 at 01:22 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 24, 2006 #
"The problem is what do we put in to replace it?"
It's not "we" the taxpayers. It would be up to the private developer who buys the building or at least one of the bays, provided the city did the right thing and put it up for sale, which will not happen.
Back in February 2005, Mayor Jack Ford had the right idea:
"Mayor Ford says the market can't be forever supported by city tax dollars, and at some point if the market continues to struggle, it needs to be turned over to private hands."
Turn it over to private hands, that's what should have happened at least with the market bay this past spring, instead of spending taxpayer dollars to renovate it with no date set for its grand re-opening.
posted by jr at 03:41 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 24, 2006 #
I understand why the antiques market is leaving - no customers. However, just switching their location isn't going to promise it's success until these 'dealers' stop guessing and wishing at prices, and get realistic as to prices. I go to lots of antique stores/malls - in a three to five hour radius of Toledo, and it's a problem not exclusive to Toledo's antique stores - Erie Street market and others. More and more, I see empty booths in these antique stores because the 'dealers' (I use quotes because dealers inplies that they are knowledable, when many are simply guessing) aren't making enough to pay the monthly rent. Reason is not just lack of traffic/customers, it is wildly overpriced, especially since ebay's smartened up people to what things are really worth (and supplied more of same). I see the same, overpriced garage sale antique and non-antique stuff five years later - same item, store, spot, price. Dealers whine nobody's buying, but that's why. I've heard from lots of people complaining that the Antique Store in Erie Street Market got so overpriced it was silly, and a waste of time except for casual browsers.
posted by starling02 at 07:12 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 24, 2006 #
Couldn't this be turned over to private interests?
Ideally it would be, but I don't know if there are any private investors willing to risk their money in it. I guess Carty could run to Dillin again, but I doubt even he would get involved with this type of a venture.
The local government doesn't have a good record with this type of thing.....Portside, ESM, COSI, and some that I may be forgetting.
posted by HeyHey at 11:18 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 24, 2006 #
Also stopped by the "ERIE SREET AUDITORIUM"to meet the new mayor's appointee from Las Vegas and assess the new direction. To my surprise, from what I understood, there was to be NO food cafes, restaurants or food venders, but a new group of retailers selling "merchandise.'
As of today, three venders are on board.
Despite the good intentions of the new director, this is a bad seed sprouting a poor plant which will eventually die. Sorry. The antique mall owner sees the diminshing Retail Writing on the empty walls and his departure will scare away other potential clients.
Erie Street Director really has his work cut out now. Tiny Staff. Ill conceived concept. Fleeing next door tenant. A Farmer's Market flirting with the suburbs (Elder Beerman Parking lot once a week). An ill conceived concept.
No food? No eating, tasting, sipping?
There has to be some accounting of the $600,000 plus that was given to this project. Why wasn't some of that money used to lure new tenants? Now, the deal is, sign a three year term or else. Is any business that crazy?
That's government for you. Powerful, stern and unrealistic. Not exactly creative retail stuff. That's our Mayor, Chief Economic leader at work on the retail streets. No doubt, a mover and shaker and good at handing the ball off to developers. On the retail street level, where creative marketing, exciting products and unique entertaining shopping atmoshpere rules, there is only the empty sound of a once interesting concept gasping for breath. Good luck reviving this one.
posted by HappyBadger at 12:31 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 25, 2006 #
However, just switching their location isn't going to promise it's success until these 'dealers' stop guessing and wishing at prices, and get realistic as to prices.
Totally right. Everytime I go to one of these places, it is the same thing: the conceit that just because it is old, it is worth something. I don't know if these people have watched too much Antiques Roadshow or what, but I am not paying $20 for a scrathed up Marie Osmond record because it is "vintage." Most of the stuff these dealers are selling were picked up at garage and estate sales and they want to make 1000% profit. Rant over.
posted by Ace_Face at 09:07 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 25, 2006 #
Interesting story from earlier this morning:
"Peter Kepler resigned today as manager of Toledo’s Erie Street Market and has been temporarily replaced by Don Monroe, who is also managing the Marina District project."
Yeah, right, resigned.
"Mayor Carty Finkbeiner and Larry Boyer, chairman of the Erie Street Market board of directors, made the announcement this morning following a meeting of the board."
I believe the new date for the ESM's grand re-opening is Spring 2007. I'd like to know what went into the thought process that led to the belief that it would re-open in May of 2006.
posted by jr at 10:39 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 25, 2006 #
well I think what lead to the belief that ESM would reopen by May of '06 was a strong desire to get the existing tenants out with the least amount of negative press.
Inch by inch....
posted by katie82640 at 11:09 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 25, 2006 #
I think the Antiques Mall gave it a good ten years - and still nothing happening there, time to cut their losses. As much as I bitch about the antique mall - garage sale junk priced as antiques, and falling apart third edition crap books trying to be sold as first edition prizes (and this is something I do know a bit about) -I can't blame the market for leaving to the burbs. Ten years ago, they were trying to figure out what to do with the Erie St Market - and they are STILL trying to figure it out, sans venders.
I want to know WHY Toledo felt the need to hire a guy from Vegas, to breeze into Toledo and attempt to tell us what will work here. Are we THAT pathetic, or wow'd by the glitz of a "Vegas" guy, that we automatically assume he's better at this than we are? I'm not sure what the actual dollar amount comes up to - as far as how many dollars has it cost so far in consultants, focus groups, studies, to help us figure it out - and they STILL come up with this dud of a plan? Good grief.
I don't claim to know business or retail - but I do know that there is not a product you can find to sell that will make it worth my time, effort, to go to the Erie Street Market for. There is not a product they can try to sell there, that you can't find closer to home (and probably cheaper with better variety). I remember the shops years back in the Market - specialty stores like a kite shop, candles, etc. Didn't last long either. (Candles & soap? Good God, you can find candles & soap of any ilk anywhere in Toledo that smell better longer) - a great source is The Tinn Soldier in Sylvania.) The ONLY draw the market has had for me has been the Antique Mall - which I stopped wasting my time with years ago. There's just too many other Antique Malls priced better, and I have no problem with driving 2 -4 hours out of town to spend with a friend doing so. By eliminating food and beverages, they will automatically eliminate any potential impulse buyers who stop in to browse (the browsers tend to want to enjoy a day and grab a snack).
The one decent thing it had going was the deli - however, truth be told, it was easier for me to hit the Andersons' deli (best and freshest in town) than to go downtown just to hit a deli. Sofos, Scordo's, Kilgus, Stanleys, etc. also have a deli. One of my concerns with buying from the deli at the market was freshness of product. Combine the very little daily traffic the market got, with the shelf life of meats & cheeses (I've gotten bags of moldy shredded cheese at Krogers and Meijers already - and they have a huge turnover) - it just made me nervous (I always wondered just how long WAS that pastrami, ham, and baby swiss cheese been sitting in that case?) No retailer wants to have to throw out products.
Carty wants to bring in the AMISH to the market?????? I'll spare you all my rants about the Amish (ranted on this forum about it before - profits from their religion, no taxes, etc.). I will only say this - I have eaten a LOT of Amish made food in my life - much of it right in the heart of Amish country; packed for sale in stores, or in restaurants. What is the big whoop-de-doo about Amish foods (and Mennonite)? I mean, it's good, ok and all, but nothing I can't find better elsewhere or make better myself (I do coffee cakes better than the Amish ones I've tried). I personally think their cheese is bland, and baked goods 'so so'. Why on earth do they think that people will go to the Market just to buy Amish made deli and bakery items, when they can already buy that stuff in any grocery store? Furniture maybe - but that's a pretty limited market, what, one vender?
posted by starling02 at 12:10 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 25, 2006 #
"... time to cut their losses."
I don't know if the Antique Mall was losing money or not. One of the reasons that it's moving is the owner wants to expand. The owner wants a bigger building than what's available at the ESM.
posted by jr at 12:21 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 25, 2006 #
Now that Kepler has "quit," I wonder if he's available to offer any insight into the whole situation that he couldn't speak about before, or did he sign an agreement that prevents him from talking about his time with the city?
posted by jr at 12:24 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 25, 2006 #
Just found out about Kepler resigning. Smart move. As I wrote this morning, the Erie Concept as is...is going nowhere. Good luck Monroe. It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.
posted by HappyBadger at 02:44 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 25, 2006 #
I'm gonna say somethinig that probably will sound angry, but the bottom line with the Erie Street Market, Portside, downtown development and any number of any projects in this city as well as across our country, IS THAT PEOPLE LACK THE COURAGE TO BE CREATIVE AND THINK FOR THMSELVES. I am so sorry for the youth of our world who are being introduced into a world dominated by chains, cheap labor, Wal Marts and cookie cutter lives.
Our own government, led by our Mayor, defines success by getting what every other city has, instead of nurturing its' own citizens' greatest resource, their minds. Don Monroe, Carty's buddy.. New ideas? Good Luck. It's the same old same old. Too sad.
posted by HappyBadger at 09:50 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 25, 2006 #
From an August 26, 2006 Blade story, Carty said about the Erie Street Market:
"I was convinced in 1994 when we started development of the market that it would be successful, and I believe that just as strongly, if not more so, today."
As long as Carty is mayor, the market will not be sold to a private investor.
More from the Blade story:
"[Carty] said he would make available up to $150,000 to assist tenant recruitment."
About this additional $150K, Ludeman said:
"You wonder how much money to put into it before you turn it over to a private real estate company to market it, or sell it to a private entity. I don't know about this $150,000. Council's going to have to look at it and see if it's worthwhile."
Prediction: Ludeman will continue with his pretend concern about spending additional money on the ESM, but when it comes vote time, Ludeman will side with Carty.
Also from the story:
"Councilman Frank Szollosi said he would oppose any further expenditures at the market. He said the city should issue a request for proposals aimed at turning the entire facility over to an independent business."
"Kathy Steingraber, executive director of the Toledo Warehouse District Association, which was the market's first manager, said she proposed to the administration yesterday that her nonprofit resume oversight of the market."
posted by jr at 10:54 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
This Don Monroe thing is an absolute howl. How many hats can a part-time guy wear? Monroe is like an "in box" that just gets piled higher and higher with stuff that you don't know what to do with. Predictably, Toledoans neither notice nor care. HB is right. Carty is putting us into a holding pattern. I posit he'll try to sit tight through the next election, as Ford quite obviously did. Hell, it beats workin'!
posted by GuestZero at 04:03 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 30, 2006 #
Heard on wspd today (brian wilson) - he said the erie st market in 9 years, has had 9 managers, and cost the city of toledo over 3 million dollars. hmmmmm.
Also - carty wants to bring the amish into the market? You can get amish food items anywhere - where's the draw? And overpriced furniture. One thing I wonder - the Amish don't have to pay taxes. Could that be an incentive (if businesses are nervous about toledo's high taxes they don't come)?
posted by starling02 at 07:32 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 30, 2006 #
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